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I was thinking about building a character around the idea of not wearing any kind of armor, and just focusing on high Con, high HP, and possibly DR / ER to help mitigate damage.
Most likely pure barbarian or unchained barbarian to maximize HP, putting all FCB points into HP, taking the Toughness feat, and maybe some feats to boost saving throws.
Make Str my secondary stat and take Power Attack, and maybe Vital Strike to stay a viable combatant.
Maybe take the energy resistance rage powers to mitigate some spell damage? Grab some Boots of the Earth for healing up between combats. Spend the gold I save from not buying armor/ring of protection/amulet of natural armor on a maxed out weapon.
I did a speed build in HeroLab just to play around on an Dwarf Invulnerable Rager Unchained Barb and got 157 HP at level 12, +temp HP from Rage, with DR and ER against almost every energy type.
Anyone played a build like this? Got any suggestions, tips, advice, etc?
Thanks
First, I strongly recommend you look at the Come And Get Me + Dazing Assault combo if you're thinking about making a beefy barbarian. Whenever an enemy tries to attack you, you attack them first and force them to save or lose their entire round (attack included).
Second, what do you mean by "tank"? It's not very useful to be vastly tougher than the rest of the party. Enemies aren't going to obligingly focus on you just because you have the most hit points- if anything, they'll do the opposite. Your excessive defenses aren't helping the rest of the party stay alive, and if everyone else wipes, you're doomed anyway.
If you want to be a useful "tank" in the sense of exerting battlefield control and drawing aggro, I suggest a human barbarian with Come And Get Me, Dazing Assault, Antagonize to force enemies to attack you, and Superstitious so you don't get punked by a save-or-suck. Take the FCB that boosts Superstitious's save bonuses and you can have better saves than a Paladin with a d12 hit die to boot.
I’ve tried this before and it depends on what you are fighting. Something like a giant with a scythe will squash you like a bug, if it gets a crit.
And since almost every attack will beat your AC, that means that almost every crit will confirm.
I played a tele/geo kineticist who combined kinetic form and kinetic whip to play reach games with significant DR, a replenishing ablative temp HP pool, and enormous HP.
My AC wasn't phenomenal, but I didn't see any reason to keep it low.
I think a dwarf invulnerable rager would work fine for the concept you are after. But any particular reason to not wear armor? Even if you don't think your AC will stay competitive, no reason to intentionally handicap it. Unless you plan on going martial artist monk or something to get unarmored AC I'd probably throw the breastplate on there.
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I forgot to mention, the character would be for PFS use. Come and Get Me is an amazing ability, unfortunately you do not get access to it until seeker levels, when your PFS career is basically over.
I was mostly trying to work it out as a challenge, and the idea of a big unarmored barbarian is such a classic image that I've never seen in game, that I thought it would be interesting to try it out.
Vital Strike is fairly light on feat requirements, and does enough damage that things would not want to let me just run rampant in combat, while leaving me extra feats to invest in high durability.
I like the concept of the Savage Barbarian archetype, but mechanically, the AC it gives you is just underwhelming...+4 AC total by level 10 is a joke, and it gets rid of your normal barbarian DR on top of that.
Invulnerable Rager is pretty solid, I just wish they were allowed to take the extra DR rage power, then they would be amazing.
I'll have to reconsider maybe using a ring and amulet at least, perhaps glamered armor to at least look unarmored.
Go barbarian, make sure to grab the superstition and eater of magic rage powers. Witch hunter and ghost rager are also nice-to-haves.
So the lack of AC isn't a problem as long as you can survive through other means (for example: the average Wizard has miserable AC and is usually fine). The 2 main problems are that "other means" for a barbarian is fairly limited, and that - unlike the Wizard - the Barbarian is almost always standing on the front lines.
As a Barbarian you have no real need for INT/CHA, so you can dump them, giving you a 28 point buy for your other 4 stats. As a Dwarf this can give you an array that looks something like: 16, 14, 18, 7, 15, 5 (Post racial). During your Rage that'll look like 20, 14, 22, 7, 15, 5. With Toughness and choosing hp for your FCB that's 1d12+6hp/level. Using the retraining rules (assuming that's PFS legal) that's 18hp/level, for 198hp by level 11.
You can also look at increasing the defenses you have. STALWART is available from level 5 and will give a pretty significant boost to your DR (a 1 level dip in UNBREAKABLE FIGHTER helps with prerequisites), and IMPROVED STALWART at level 11 will make you a lot harder to kill.
You could also look at something like a Bloodrager dip to get access to wands of Mage-Armour/Shield. Mage Armour has a long enough duration to last through a few encounters, and using your surprise round to activate Shield isn't a terrible idea. These won't scale as well as actual armour, but +4AC has a 20% chance to negate any given attack (unless their attack is way above your AC anyway).
Finally I'd probably take a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes (Hence the 14 DEX in my proposed stat-array). An enemy who dies while charging can't hit you (an enemy who gets tripped can't either).
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Well AC is less important when you position yourself to not take as many attacks as normal. A barbarian using reach tactics and Come and Get Me and Dazing Assault is definitely a good way to go. Using Animal Fury or a bite attack for natural reach will help you utilize CaGM if they end up adjacent to you. Raging Vitality gives you an additional +2 to Con while raging, in addition to solving Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome
Half-Orc, pick up the Beast Totem line for pounce at 10th. Superstitious rage power, Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait, and Fate's Favored faith trait for a big boost to saving throws, in addition to getting the Human Fvd Class bonus to boost superstition. Grab combat reflexes and use a bardiche, get the fortuitous and furious enchantments too. If you have room pick up Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip and Greater Trip for more crowd control. And of course, Raging Vitality. Grab a spring-loaded wrist sheathe and stock up on Enlarge Person potions. draw the potion as a swift, drink, move action to position yourself. Then punish those who try to get close. Once you get Come and Get Me rage power and Dazing Assault you'll be able to seriously control the battlefield. At which point, who cares about AC?
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Retraining is an option for some things in PFS, hit points is not one of them unfortunately. PFS uses the average HP per level method, so barbarians get 7+Con+FCB+toughness for every level after 1st, which you get max HP.
If I stick with Dwarf as my race I could use a Dorn-Dergar for my weapon, which would give me the option of close or reach as needed. A half naked Dwarf swinging a wrecking ball could be fun :)
Half-Orc might be interesting as well, I'll have to play around and see which one I like the looks of more.
What is everyone's thoughts on Core -vs- Unchained Barbarian? Core gives a morale bonus to Str and Con, -vs- Unchained gives flat untyped bonuses to hit and damage, and temp HP that gets used up first. The Core seems more powerful overall, but the morale bonuses don't stack with some team buffs, the untyped bonuses and temp HP on unchained seem nice, but it looks like a lot of their rage powers got nerfed.
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Personally I like Core better almost exclusively because they have access to Come and Get Me, which is easily one of the most powerful martial abilities in the game. Ultimately, not counting CaGM, they even out and one might be better suited than the other. Unchained barbarian makes for a better TWF barb rather than chained, because the bonus they get to damage is static rather than tied to increased strength. On the flip side a 2h weapon gets a bit better mileage out of the core barbarian as the str bonus is multiplied.
You can also do fun stuff with things like Amplified Rage or Moment of Greatness with core barbarians that unchained misses out on.
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CaGM isn't really a consideration for PFS due to how late you get it. 95% of PFS material is designed around levels 1-11, there are very few options for levels 12+, and most of those are only available for play at conventions and other special events.
I'll be going 2 handed for this build, probably 2H with reach. Possibly building around vital strike for 1 really big hit per round. Hadn't thought about the fact that the Str bonus scaling with 2 handers...that may be the tipping point towards going Core for me.
There might be some possibility in using the Fighter (Viking) and the Unbreakable feat to effectively get +2 hp every favored Class bonus. Use the half Orc racial to get Endurance feat. Could be some fairly good options with feat selection as you would be a fighter. Maybe first level take Barbarian or Bloodrager so you don't have to wait too long for rage.
If I stick with Dwarf as my race I could use a Dorn-Dergar for my weapon, which would give me the option of close or reach as needed. A half naked Dwarf swinging a wrecking ball could be fun :)
Haha, now I'm imagining a short, naked Billy-Connolly lookalike called Cyrus Miley swinging around on his Dorn-Derger. Take 1 level of Skald - Just for the lolz.
Sad about the retraining hp not working, you only end up with 148hp. The temporary hp does make unchained more appealing, but it's only 2hp/level (so 22hp at the end of your run), not a game-breaking difference.
So I just looked up any Rage Powers that would add to your AC and ... well they stink. What I did find was RECKLESS ABANDON. If you combine this with Combat Expertise and STALWART you end up sacrificing AC for DR. Since your AC sucks anyway, this is basically giving you free bonus DR. At level 11 (With Improved Stalwart) you'd be taking -3 to your AC for +6 to your DR (for a total of DR:11/- ).
You will want at least a moderate AC. If you want to play the classic unarmored do the opposite of what has been recommended. Don’t get armor but spend a little more for amulet of natural armor and rings of protection. Also pick up feats that give you AC without needing armor. Dodge and Ironhide would both seem to fit.
An unchained barbarian would probably be for this because of things like guarded stance and Protect Vitals. You don’t need to get a high AC, just one high enough to avoid some of the damage.
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I did some double checking, and I was mistaken...retraining HP is actually legal...unfortunately it is also prohibitively expensive, so it might as well not be legal...you would have an absolute maximum HP gain from retraining of 22 HP at level 12, it costs 3 prestige per HP, and you only get 6 prestige per level on average. That would also use up every point of prestige you gain along the way, not leaving you anything for an emergency raise dead, or restoration or anything.
I'm not super excited by all the fighting defensively related options...they just feel counter to the concept of a rage filled barbarian.
I'm leaning more towards core barb with raging vitality, the extra con while raging and reduced chance of sudden death from going unconscious seems like a powerhouse combo. I did a quickie test build in HeroLab and ended up with like 230hp while raging at level 11, dishing out solid hits with Imp. Vital Strike.
I'm flip flopping between Dwarf and Half-Orc...both have solid racial options. Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos and Fate's Favored, Dwarves with Hardy and Glory of Old for big saving throw boosts. Dwarves have better racial weapons IMHO, the Dorn-Dergar is probably my favorite reach weapon option. The Half-Orc FCB that boosts Superstition is pretty solid...but would mean less HP.
I did some double checking, and I was mistaken...retraining HP is actually legal...unfortunately it is also prohibitively expensive, so it might as well not be legal...you would have an absolute maximum HP gain from retraining of 22 HP at level 12, it costs 3 prestige per HP, and you only get 6 prestige per level on average. That would also use up every point of prestige you gain along the way, not leaving you anything for an emergency raise dead, or restoration or anything.
Yeah that's garbage.
I'm not super excited by all the fighting defensively related options...they just feel counter to the concept of a rage filled barbarian.
Well the idea of Stalwart is that instead of dodging your enemies you just tank the hits ... think of the start of THIS FIGHT.
If you still don't like it then fair enough.
I know Barb is probably the most obvious choice for a build like this, but I think you should also consider Brawler as a secondary option for creating what you're going for. You can go massive amounts of Con while simply pumping your CMB/CMD with items/feats and your Str score doesn't really matter as much as long as you got a 16-ish+. Brawlers are only d10 and they don't have bonus HP from Rage, so that kinda sucks, but Brawlers can take just about any feat they want to on the fly with Martial Flexibility, and this is what can make you a "tank". You can go super high Con as a primary stat and use Str as a secondary stat that you don't even need to worry about, and then go for combat control.
Guess I could just ignore the name and consider the defensive stuff as just shrugging off hits instead of avoiding them. Opens up a lot of options when you think of them that way.
Totally up to you. I like it, but I'm not the one playing this character. If it breaks immersion for you then do something else - the main reason for it is to stack DR (You could always think of "Crane Style" as the "Crane" that lifts the "Wrecking Ball")
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Half-Orc Bloodrager 1/Skald 10
Bloodline Familiar (Valet Compsognathus)
Amplified Rage
Skald's Vigor
The rest doesn't really matter. Super high STR, super high CON, and lots of fast healing. Plus tons of versatility, thanks to spells, skills, etc.
If you want to be extra good at this plan, take the Orc Atavism alternate racial trait (gives Ferocity).
If you just want to go basic, pick up your favourite two-handed weapon and go to town. If you want to be more of a combat wrecking monster, there are some sweet options for that available to the Skald.
How about a Bloodrager with the Arcane bloodline? At 4th level, you gain Blur while raging, and at 8th level, Displacement, and you can use Mage Armor (or a wand thereof).
Hadn't thought about the fact that the Str bonus scaling with 2 handers...that may be the tipping point towards going Core for me.
It's a mere 1 damage, possibly 2 at 11th/12th level.
So I just looked up any Rage Powers that would add to your AC and ... well they stink.
unBarb's has Guarded Stance, for the same progression. Plus of course Beast Totem (also at the same progression).
Personally I like Core better almost exclusively because they have access to Come and Get Me, which is easily one of the most powerful martial abilities in the game.
It's a tad worse because you need to activate it, but the Taunting Stance unBarb rage power is basically the same thing.
If by viable you mean "doesn't require outside healing to work" then no.
You can't get enough DR or ER that you're not going to take damage. As levels go up, damage ratchets up more than ER or DR can keep up with. You will not be able to go all day on your own. But! Congratulations! You're part of a team, and someone can probably heal you with a CLW wand. Just don't completely neglect your AC so that you're taking every hit.
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If by viable you mean "doesn't require outside healing to work" then no.
You can't get enough DR or ER that you're not going to take damage. As levels go up, damage ratchets up more than ER or DR can keep up with. You will not be able to go all day on your own. But! Congratulations! You're part of a team, and someone can probably heal you with a CLW wand. Just don't completely neglect your AC so that you're taking every hit.
Part of why trying to do this plan as a Barbarian is sub-optimal.
By my own suggestion above, as a Bloodrager/Skald you get access to both Infernal Healing and Cure Light Wounds wands without UMD, and you've got some spells you can use to heal yourself, plus the fast healing granted by Skald's Vigor. These things together make it pretty viable to go all day without outside assistance.
Also, while not PFS legal (so not useful for OP since he's specifically looking for PFS stuff), other people reading this thread may also be interested in another great option for trying to do this: Synthesist Summoner. You effectively end up with double HP, and Summoner has access to a lot of really solid defensive buffs (Clayskin, Ablative Barrier, etc). You also get to very easily be a real threat, so things WILL come after you.
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Bloodrager is cool and all, but I already have a pretty decent Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple, who is quite fun to play.
I was wanting to go pure martial for this guy, since I already have a self buffing spellcasting rage monster. Plus the Skald just does not appeal to me...singing vikings would just devolve into silliness around these parts.
As for being a resource sink, as long as I don't die in a combat, I would be able to heal myself up with a few minutes rest via Boots of the Earth in between most combats.
The armored kilt is an interesting item, but it is not PFS legal. I'll probably just go with wearing low cost armor with the glamered enchantment to make it look like I'm not wearing armor.
I was wanting to go pure martial for this guy, since I already have a self buffing spellcasting rage monster. Plus the Skald just does not appeal to me...singing vikings would just devolve into silliness around these parts.
Heh, sounds awesome. I suggested a Skald dip more because you talked about being NAKED WITH A WRECKING BALL.
Saying "I don't want to go too silly" really takes that off the table =P
As for being a resource sink, as long as I don't die in a combat, I would be able to heal myself up with a few minutes rest via Boots of the Earth in between most combats.
The armored kilt is an interesting item, but it is not PFS legal. I'll probably just go with wearing low cost armor with the glamered enchantment to make it look like I'm not wearing armor.
Honestly, While it may not be 100% optimal, I think you'll be strong and tough enough that you won't need the armour. Will it take more resources? Probably. Will it be enough that you ruin the game and/or die? Probably not.
I say if you want to try it give it a go. If you die you can come back and say "well now we know it doesn't work but at least i tried", and if if you LIVE you can show it off at conventions everywhere! Nobody ever did anything great by playing it safe!
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I second the use of potions. I'm of the opinion that you should save up enough prestige for a body recovery and raise dead, after which you should be spending prestige pretty much every session. A potion of fly here, a potion of displacement there, or maybe even a scroll with 5 castings of lesser restoration. And of course wands. If your kit includes spending costly material you can purchase bags of x item with 750 gp worth of x (obsidian for undead raising builds, for example. Or diamond dust), all for just 2PP.
If you plan on being a tank in PFS, be prepared to buy a new cure light wounds wand about once every 3 sessions, particularly at higher levels. I played a life oracle that regularly used life link and shield other, and when I was getting to levels 10-11 I was using up an entire wand almost every session.
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I have a low level life link Oradin, I expect he will be burning through wands too. For a HP focused tank, I would definitely invest in Boots of the Earth to heal 10hp per minute while standing still between fights. Not as effective as wands in the short term, but 6 and a half wands goes fast when you eat a lot of damage.
I don't normally play drinking focused characters, as I personally do not drink...that may be an interesting change of pace. Something to think about at least...probably only dip enough monk to qualify for the fast drinker stuff though, I'm picturing a more traditional barbarian weapon like a Earthbreaker or Greataxe than punchy monk stuff. Are there any ways to get swift action alcohol consumption without needing to go monk?
Order of the Flame seems interesting...most PFS combats don't run long enough to really take advantage of it though...something else to think about at least, I do like the idea of hitting harder for each foe you drop.
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Adventure's Guide feat, Unbreakable
Benefit: Whenever you gain 1 hit point as a fighter favored class benefit, you gain an additional hit point. Treat your effective Constitution score as being 4 higher for the purpose of determining when you would die from hit point damage. These benefits are retroactive.
This is basically 3 extra hit points per level, as long as you take Fighter levels. This requires at least 13 CON as a prerequisite.
Ultimate Combat feat, Stalwart
Fighting Defensively + Combat Expertise becomes DR 4/- at level 4, instead of +4 AC. The downside is that feat requires Endurance as feat tax. You can either use the Half-Orc alternate racial to gain Endurance as a bonus feat, or take the Fighter Unbreakable archetype to get both Endurance and Diehard as your 1st-level bonus feat. Unbreakable Fighter also give you a +1 Will save bonus instead of Bravery.
Ultimate Combat feat, Bolstered Resilience
If you went for the Fighter route, then you'd look like this:
Unbreakable Fighter
Feats:
1- Endurance, Diehard, Toughness
2- Combat Expertise
3-
4- Stalwart
5- Unbreakable (from Adventurer's Guide)
If you really want a rage ability, go Human or Half-Elf and take the Raging Blood feat. It counts as the Bloodrager's Bloodrage, which counts as the Barabarian's Rage class feature. Build would look something this:
Half-Elf Unbreakable Fighter
Feats:
1- Endurance, Diehard, Toughness [Skill Focus: Knowledge (any)]
2- Combat Expertise
3- Eldritch Heritage: Arcane
4- Stalwart
5- Raging Blood
6- Unbreakable (from Adventurer's Guide)
7- Raging Vitality (15 CON prerequisite)/Extra Rage
This would net you +21 HP at level 7 and an extra 14 HP while raging with Raging Vitality. The only reason I put the Arcane bloodline is that you can add magical properties to your arcane bond at level 7 (assuming you bonded a weapon), or you even take a familiar. The familiar option might be better, since you could take a toad familiar and get +3 hit points.
Well if we're steering away from Barbarian there's always the Paladin.
That's at level 11 (well 10 really).
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Aberrant Bloodrager with a protector tumor isn't strictly damage mitigation, but evenly distributing the damage allows to last way longer
Sadly, they killed they combination when they reprinted the Protector archetype in Ultimate Wilderness.
Protector familiars are so devoted that they would give their lives for their masters. A tumor familiar can’t be a protector.
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I've thought about this but never came up with a good build. I did play a spell eater bloodrager and boosted her fast healing up to 5 with the fast heal feat, but that's pretty insignificant if you're getting hit a lot. Warpriest or paladin self heals would be better. The stalwart invulnerable barbarian can get a lot of Dr, but not until high levels. I played an unchained barbarian and the temp HP you get from raging was not an insignificant amount of mitigation, but I was trying to keep my AC up as well.
In my experience, having low defenses is the best way to tank, though it is very much meta. If you focus on AC, GMs will quickly start trying to ignore you. Monsters will go around you to hit people with less AC, not because it makes sense for the scenario, but because the GM knows the enemies will have a hard time hitting your AC 30, so they go after the AC 20 guy. The issue being that they (the GM) isn't having fun/is feeling frustrated. So I figure if you can make a low defense high mitigation character, then that would solve this problem.
Aberrant Bloodrager with a protector tumor isn't strictly damage mitigation, but evenly distributing the damage allows to last way longerSadly, they killed they combination when they reprinted the Protector archetype in Ultimate Wilderness.
Protector familiars are so devoted that they would give their lives for their masters. A tumor familiar can’t be a protector.I know but I was thinking about the older version (depends on whether the GM allows it or not), in PFS clearly no debate about that
I could also envision Holy Vindicator of an oradin multiclassing, but it's more about the pool of healing than the efficiency given the lay of hands and the different channels would be weaker than a solo classing* good question so thinking about it, and it's quite difficult
Fixed your link above.
Without being a tumor, the protector familiar is still good and easily available to a lot of builds. If you’re worried about healing it, then dip 1 to 4 levels of life shaman.