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Dunno why some people are acting like this is an OP feat.
You're only doing 1d4+1 damage (per 5 levels) every shot compared to the gunslinger who is getting dex to damage and can TWF with just a 2 level dip in juggler bard.
You could make an argument about combining it with Gunslinger, but that wouldn't even come online til character level 10. Hardly OP by then.
It's free action no hands reload that doesn't increase misfire chance, that's where the money's at. Still, who says it's overpowered?
It's the latest and will be the last new means of TWF with pistols. It's worth looking at on that basis, even if it's the 6th means of doing so.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's a thought... take your first level as Sorcerer and take Amateur Gunslinger. Choose Quick Clear as your first level deed. The text of AG says you "CAN" trade the feat for Extra Grit, not that you automatically do. So, for the cost of a feat, you can get the starting deeds from Mysterious Stranger plus Quick Clear. Sound legit?Looks like a great pick for an Eldritch Knight gun build. I'd suggest either:
Mysterious Stranger 1 / Primal Elemental Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight X
or
Trench Fighter 3 / Spellslinger Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight XThe Sorcerer build basically gives up on dex-to-damage and instead gets cha-to-damage. While you will need to manage grit very carefully, you'll have Infused Spell Cartridges as an option to deliver powerful damaging spells (because you are a primal elemental sorcerer) to land killing blows and recover that grit. The biggest issue with this build is misfires, since you don't have an way of getting the quick clear ability.
The reason you are dipping into Gunslinger(Mysterious Stranger) is to pick up the archetype abilities that allow you to use Cha to pick up grit points and add Cha to damage. If you only take Amateur Gunslinger you're wis based and you have no option to take the deeds from mysterious stranger.
As a side note I'm going to caution against using Spellslinger. While it could be a very powerful gun based build using the Spellslingers ability to dump a spell to temporarily boost the enchantment on a firearm requires a swift action. That means for 1 round each combat you won't be able to use Arcane Strike or Spell Cartridges. It is possible for you to compensate by using a multi-barreled weapon and use real bullets for 1 round. Spellslinger can start with any ranged weapon for free, so you could start with a cylender riffle and always keep 1 barrel empty.
get 1 level of spellscar drifter get:
proficient with all firearms (and whips and more), Amateur Gunslinger feat for clearing the gun, gunsmithing feat and you use cha for grit or other abilities that use grit.
i just wanted to clarify, that it doesn't say 1d4+1 per 5 levels, from my understanding its 1d4 per 5 levels. This feat is unlike anything i've seen before, is there a arrow version of the feat?
CasterLevel 5: 1d4
Caster Level 10: 2d4
Caster Level 15: 3d4
Caster Level 20: 4d4
Caster Level 25: 5d4
Not sure if there is a way to push the caster level high for this as those abilities usually work on cast. And archery is already in a great place without a feat like this.
CasterLevel 5: 1d4
Caster Level 10: 2d4
Caster Level 15: 3d4
Caster Level 20: 4d4
Caster Level 25: 5d4Not sure if there is a way to push the caster level high for this as those abilities usually work on cast. And archery is already in a great place without a feat like this.
Is that how that works, cause I was thinking it would be 1d4 1st lv, and 2d4 at 5th level ect ect.
well it still deal the arcane strike damage so using spell cartridge would total up to:
1-4 cl : 1 damage (from arcane strike)
5-9 cl : 1d4+2
10-14 cl : 2d4+3
15-19 cl : 3d4+4
20-24 cl : 4d4+5
25 cl : 5d4+5 (the d4 doesn't seem to have an upper limit beside cl)
id say 0d4+1 (also it's obviously only raw. rai that 1d4 should be from cl 1, as there is a force bullet in the gun after all)
In case it's relevant to the people talking spell cartridges up, here's the other means of TWF with pistols that I know of.
1. Use guns which hold multiple shots, e.g. double-barreled pistol (2 shots ea.), paddle-foot pistol (4), dragoon pistol (3) or if you can get advanced firearms there's the revolver.
2. Have multiple arms or other useful limbs (possibly a prehensile tail) so you can reload easily. There are race options, alchemist discoveries & polymorph spells to achieve this. Similarly 2 levels in juggler bard and you effectively have a free hand to reload with. A couple of pepperbox pistols could combine this and #1, or you can just get the reload time down to a free action.
3. Get fancy magic weapons with the shadowshooting property or other more expensive means of reloading.
4. Cast reloading hands to reload one weapon and get a swift-action reload like the beneficial bandolier to reload the other. I originally thought spell cartridges was another means of doing the latter but apparently it's better than that. Obviously not something for use at higher levels but it's a cheap stopgap.
5. Have a cohort or something do the reloading, and get a means of easily getting the weapons off them like the shared stash teamwork feat.
Spell cartridges is now #6.
It's free action no hands reload that doesn't increase misfire chance, that's where the money's at. Still, who says it's overpowered?
I think it's too good for a single feat.
I think it's especially unbalanced for the fact that it means arcane spell casters are the ones that most easily overcome the challenge of firearms (reloading).
But in general I have a problem with firearms anyways...so maybe I'm not the best judge for this topic. (If we removed the touch AC targeting from firearms I wouldn't care at all on this topic, it would be a way to reload an otherwise useless weapon.)
I think it's especially unbalanced for the fact that it means arcane spell casters are the ones that most easily overcome the challenge of firearms (reloading).
I'd say that's a big part of why it actually is balanced. Someone with the caster levels to make it worthwhile, probably won't be that good with the gun anyway, either from lack of feats or lack of BAB or from having to deal with misfire. Sure, there are ways to overcome all of these issues, but it's a long and expensive path.
But seriously, try to build a character that maximizes this feat and you'll see that it doesn't do that well compared to more traditional builds of a similar level.
I'm reading spell cartridges as "1d4 per +1 arcane strike adds". Since, theoretically spell cartridges can be had well before level 5 and feats should do something as soon as you can have them.
A force bullet deals 1d4 points of force damage for every five caster levels you have.
I don't see any wiggle room in that wording. At best, you could say that the bullets do base 0d4 damage before level 5, which can then be modified by other damage modifiers.
And there are other character options that have the possibility to not do anything when you can first get them. The bounty hunter slayer gets an ability at level 2 that relies on sneak attacks that the slayer typically won't have till level 3.
Rather than typing it all out again:
That is a good point to make, but then you also have spells like: Ear-Piercing Scream where it is 1d6 damage per two caster levels, with no listed minimum, as a first level spell. But the spell DOES do 1d6 damage at first level.
Do we have a rules source for that conviction or is that just an assumption?
Maybe the Dragonheir Scion Fighter archetype would be a good user of this fest? This is, of course, assuming that the Arcane Strike fear that the archetype grants is supposed to scale with fighter level.
Unfortunately spell cartridges has a prereq of being able to cast arcane spells, and the dragonheir doesn't qualify.
Unfortunately spell cartridges has a prereq of being able to cast arcane spells, and the dragonheir doesn't qualify.
Aah. And I suppose spell-like abilities no longer count as well.
Yup. Not that the dragonheir even gets a SLA.