Are you interested/allowed to use Psionics?
Sensei Monk is cool. You are a ball of resistances and high AC, good hitting ability... but you deal crap for damage. So you try to game feats with Wisdom DCs in your favor - like Stunning Fist + Mantis Style, Electric Eel Shock, Touch of Serenity, etc. You can also exploint Qinggong spells with higher DCs and a larger mana pool thanks to WIS boosting.
Another one: Warrior Poet Samurai dropping Spring Attack nukes. It's fun.
The usual questions:
* What is party composition so far?
* GM play-style and expectations?
* Point-buy or roll-your-smokes?
And:
* If you don't know what you like, what would you dislike? (We can at least leave those options off the table.)
You say you’ve played a lot of things. Which of those things was your favorite? As was mentioned before, multiclassing and spellcasting don’t usually mix well.
Of the top of my head classes that can do the raise undead thing:
Antipaladin
Cleric
Druid (Shade of the Uskwood feat)
Occultist
Oracle
Shaman
Sorcerer
Witch (Plague patron or Gravewalker archetype)
Wizard
Any of these strike your fancy?
Haaaaaaaave you tried a Sorcadin Disciple? Or a brute Rage prophet?
You're party is missing a divine caster and a damage dealer, so bring forth the Rage prophet!
The Bones Oracle makes a pretty good undeath guy. And you strike me as the kind of person who'd rather have spontaneous than prepared spells.
And the oracle has the bonus of making it easy for you to use healing wands and status removal scrolls to make up for your party not having a healer.
The Bones Oracle makes a pretty good undeath guy. And you strike me as the kind of person who'd rather have spontaneous than prepared spells.
And the oracle has the bonus of making it easy for you to use healing wands and status removal scrolls to make up for your party not having a healer.
My daughter is loving her bones oracle! It's PFS, so he's not evil, and will rarely if ever use Animate Dead when he gets access to it in a couple more levels, but he takes unholy delight in turning undead against their creators (Undead Servitude, backed with a high Cha, will trump your average evil cleric's orders).
Problems with the Mystic Theurge build: You stop leveling Cleric and Wizard at 3. So your channel abilities stop growing. Also your Command Undead is stuck at level 3 (or 6 if the GM is kind enough to allow Undead Master to stack with cleric levels, which he should). Also you are 2 caster levels behind thanks to your 3 level dip. You will be able to cast low level spells for days but...who cares? Dedicated single class casters can just out mussel your spell ability. Also you've delayed your ability to create more powerful undead by 3 levels.
The loss of channel isn't the end of the world, and although you lose out on the command undead feat you gain access to the command undead spell, which is vasty superior to the feat. 12th level is also about when the theurge is climbing out of his valley of suck, with 5th level spells in both arcane and divine.
You're party is missing a divine caster and a damage dealer, so bring forth the Rage prophet!
Bloodrager/Oracle multiclass with the Mad Magic feat does everything a Rage Prophet can do but better. If you have access to all Pathfinder sourcebooks, there is no reason to go Rage Prophet.
ugh... to many choices. lol, sometimes my brain goes into overthink mode. too many archtypes, classes, templates, multi-class options. nothing is jumping out in my brain as a PICK ME, PICK ME.
I do like arcane over divine, but since there is no divine, I have to take at least a dip or two so I can help heal people... the DM doesn't care, but my innate sensibilities almost require it for party balance even though I'll probably be evil. lol
If you'd prefer to be arcane, then do it. Invest in the UMD skill and grab a wand of cure light wounds to provide your party with healing.
Sometimes you just have to make a decision and go with it. There are more interesting builds out there than you could ever reasonably play. To narrow things down, here's a tried and true method:
- Write down a list of every build that is appealing to you.
- Pick any two off the list and decide which of the two you like better, then cross off the one you didn't pick.
- Repeat until only one build is left.
ugh... to many choices. lol, sometimes my brain goes into overthink mode. too many archtypes, classes, templates, multi-class options. nothing is jumping out in my brain as a PICK ME, PICK ME.
I do like arcane over divine, but since there is no divine, I have to take at least a dip or two so I can help heal people... the DM doesn't care, but my innate sensibilities almost require it for party balance even though I'll probably be evil. lol
Since you're looking for just a bunch of character concepts you can take a look at my character concept document. I apologize that the layout may not be as good as it could be and it may be easiest to just look at the table of contents and jump to the section that sounds interesting (the document is currently 110 pages).
It's a culmination of sifting these forums and putting builds and concepts into a formalized format that's easy to understand. It also has tables I've put together of information that I find myself constantly having to look up while developing new builds. It's a work in progress so there are incomplete sections (for example I'm still condensing the benefits of the divine obedience feat into something that's searchable). Hopefully it's helpful.
Archery, using a gun needs 5 levels of gun slinger. It would also be fairly easy to add archery to the build posted above though a war priest could also do the job.
Worth noting that a Gunslinger 5 / Cleric 7 has roughly the same spellcasting power as a Warpriest 12. If you have access to the Trench Fighter that could be even better.
Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger is an option with charisma-based casting classes. It works well with only a 1-level dip, and since you're starting at 12th you can just take a reliable weapon
In any case, archery is definitely the simpler approach, but firearms are perfectly workable.
what would you suggest for the build Dasrak? Trench Fighter 3/Cleric 9? or a dip into gunslinger for the deeds in case something happens to the gun.
I'd take the Amateur Gunslinger feat rather than dipping Gunslinger.
Feats would be exotic weapon proficiency, amateur gunslinger, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and deadly aim. Skip rapid reload and get a shadowshooting reliable musket. That leaves you two more feats (three if you go human) for other things.
lol. good point Dasrak. I guess I'm just annoyed at myself because I can play someone as evil (and not an NPC) and I can't come up with something instantly like I'd normally do.
EDIT: changed mind. first time going, let's not be too complicated and such. lol
Ok, I'm going to go ranged/divine. Should I do archery or gunsmithing and what divine should I do?
Suggestions.
I'm going to be the annoying guy who says do a Longbow Druid build with Nature Fang!
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Ranged/Divine you say? Credit to UnArcaneElection to this one but I would suggest the following:
Human Ranger 2/Cleric (Separatist,Foundation of the Faith) of Erastil 3/Hinterlander X. Pick Magical Knack (Cleric) with one of your traits. Max Wis, just enough Dex for medium armor.
Ranger 1- Weapon Focus (Longbow), Human Bonus -Erastil's Blessing. Now you now use Wis to hit with longbows.
Ranger 2- Ranger Bonus Combat Feat Precise Shot
Cleric 1- Pick Protection for your Separatist Domain, whatever for the other one. 3rd Level Feat: Endurance (needed for Hinterlander). Foundation of the Faith is because channel is useless to you, it does *something* useful, and it stacks with Separatist.
Cleric 2-
Cleric 3- Favored Prestige Class Hinterlander
Hinterlander 1- Master Archer Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Hinterlander 2- Prestigious Spellcaster (Hinterlander), now your spell progression is back to level-2 and caster level is back to your level.
Hinterlander 3- Master Archer Feat: Improved Precise Shot
Hinterlander 4- Clustered Shots
Hinterlander 5- Master Archer Feat- Manyshot
Hinterlander 6- Quicken Spell
Hinterlander 7- Imbue Arrow is now online. Next level you get Anti-Magic Field from the Protection Domain.
If you finish Hinterlander and return to cleric you end up with 9th level spells, a BAB of 18, and one fewer archery combat style feat than a full class ranger (and you skipped point blank shot)
If you don't need this playable from the beginning you can skip the 2 level ranger dip, it's mostly to get Wis-to-Hit going from level 1 and skipping Point-Blank Shot) so the character is playable for 20 levels.
If you want to play a "Necromancer" as a Psionic Character, check out the Thrallherd PrC. It's a pretty similar playstyle; instead of having undead minions, you have mind-controlled thralls.
or use a bow
I'm going to disagree with taking Amateur Gunslinger. Since you start at 12th level there really isn't any reason to take it. With a reliable musket you shouldn't ever need to use the quick clear deed. Not sure which other deed you'd want. Considering how few feats you'll get, you probably want that for a channeling feat.
Muskets have a 1-2 misfire range, so even with reliable you still misfire on a 1 and will need the ability to quick clear. If you go with a reliable pistol then you could get rid of amateur gunslinger, but that would reduce your range increment.
Also instead of Shadowshooting you might want to make it a Shadowcraft weapon. They do the same thing, but one is a +1 enchantment, and the other is a modifier to the weapon that costs a flat 12k. Depending on how much you want to enchant that weapon, the 12k gets cheap.
The break-even is at +4 equivalent weapons, which he will probably have at this level.
If your GM allows advanced firearms you might consider starting with a riffle.
D) Use a revolver or rifle on a race that can wield larger than medium weapons giving myself a minimum of 2d6 base die per shot then getting 7 shots a round if using revolvers or 4 if using a rifle reloading as a free action with no need for risking a weak will save dc to do minimum damage.
Advanced firearms are ludicrously strong, and basically obsolete all other weapon types due to how over the top they are. If you can get them, definitely go for them.
So yeah. Explain how a 12th level cleric does this. Step by step please because I don't see it.
Only way I can see to do is to use the Holy Vindicator prestige class to hit +11 BAB with a combination of Trench Fighter 3 / Cleric 2 / Holy Vindicator 7. That gives you 3 attacks, +1 from divine power, +1 from rapid shot, +2 from improved two weapon fighting, for a total of 7 attacks.
There's probably an obscure way to dual-wield large-sized revolvers without penalty, but the only one I'm aware of is on very shaky grounds. The tieflings have a random table they can roll on for variant traits, and one of them allows over-sized limbs to wield over-sized weapons without penalty. However, I don't think many GM's would let you pick and choose off a table designed for random rolling.
You're party is missing a divine caster and a damage dealer, so bring forth the Rage prophet!Bloodrager/Oracle multiclass with the Mad Magic feat does everything a Rage Prophet can do but better. If you have access to all Pathfinder sourcebooks, there is no reason to go Rage Prophet.
Kinda have to disagree with you there. Bloodrager/Oracle does lack spellcasting for either one or both of the classes (BR10/O10=CL7/CL10), or you'll lose greater rage or the full effectiviness of the oracle.
And IMO the most predominant class feature of the Rage Prophet is the "RageCaster". At 4th lvl RP, you can add you CON to concentration. I know, big whoop right? BUT! There's more! At 7th lvl RP, you add you CON to the save DC's of spells, which is the real deal! With Barb2/Oracle8/RP10 you can get base saves, yes BASE saves (so without the actual spell level) of ~30 at lvl17. Try to save againts a Major Curse or Slay Living with a DC of 35 or 36, Those are almost on par with demigod saves. And instead of taking Mad magic, you can get the Furious Spell metamagic feat (or go for Mad Magic as well).
Yes, you'll have fewer rage powers and revelations, but those can be taken with feats. You're Barb lvl and oracle lvl for the rage powers and revelations you do have (or taken with a feat), progress further than when you go for BloodRager/Oracle, as the RP lvls stack with the base classes for effectiviness of the rage powers and revelations. Pump in a few Favoured Spellcasting feats and your spellcasting is on par with other casters.
Back on topic:
First let me say again... thank you EVERYONE for any and all suggestions, I did look at them and consider everything that was said to me. :)
The reason I was thinking guns was... of course, better chance to hit with them, after all you're going after a touch ac instead of a regular ac as with bows.
what would you suggest for the build Dasrak? Trench Fighter 3/Cleric 9? or a dip into gunslinger for the deeds in case something happens to the gun.
Instead of dipping into gunslinger for deeds, you might want to switch Trench fighter with Swashbuckler (might even take the Musketeer archtype).
Cerebromancer...that's like a cerebremancer but with too much testosterone, right?
Cerebromancer...that's like a cerebremancer but with too much testosterone, right?
It's a specific type of psionic manifesting where two (usually male) practitioners butt heads together while psyching each other up and boosting their egos. If their egos reach critical mass before they knock themselves unconscious, the resulting power can be quite awesome.
/sarcasm
Mystic Theurge isn't bad at 12 level. Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Theurge 6 has 9th level casting (5th level spells) in both classes, compared to 6th level spells that a straight caster would have. This is where mystic theurge starts to come into its own and plays very well. The archetype's bad reputation is mostly about its low-level problems, and at high levels it's a solid option.
A Cerebremancer is 3.5, not Pathfinder.
There is a 3PP conversion, but whether that's allowed at your table is another matter. I personally quite like Ultimate Psionics and it's on the pre-approved list of source material for my table, but some just hold a "Paizo only" rule.
For the 2nd, I read that both the Undead Lord and Undead Master aren't worth it.
Yeah, Undead Lord is a bad archetype. The main attraction is the corpse companion, but it's weaker than the undead you can create with spells and takes so much downtime to create that you'll rarely have it at your side anyways. The only good thing the archetype has going for it is the 8th level power which boosts how much you can heal undead creatures when you use negative energy, but that one power isn't even close to be worth losing an entire domain. It's also worth noting that the Undeath domain is a bad domain, and isn't particularly noteworthy within its own specialty. Personally, I think the the Inevitable Domain (a subdomain of Law, of all things) outclasses it due to getting Command Undead as a domain spell, which is sort of the holy grail of divine necromancers.
The Undead Master feat is poorly written and it's unclear exactly what it's supposed to do. The big problem is that it increases the number of undead you can create with a single casting of Animate Dead or Command Undead feat, but it does not make any mention to how many you can control. Creating more undead is kinda useless if you can't subsequently control them, but the Command Undead feat doesn't actually create undead at all, it just controls them. This implies the feat is meant to increase the amount you can create and the amount you can control. If a GM rules leniently the feat is quite good; if they rule narrowly it's close to useless. Ask your GM before using this feat.
Wizard/Cleric/MT
Arcanist/Cleric/MT
Wizard/Oracle/MT
Arcanist/Oracle/MT
If you're going to do Arcanist/Oracle, you may as well go for Sorcerer/Oracle instead to be SAD. If you're going to mix and match two slow progression 9-level caster classes, you may as well go for a SAD combination. Personally I think Wizard/Cleric is by far the best choice simply by virtue of being a notch or two ahead in terms of spell level.
Also, best races suggestion? I can do any basic or advanced none 3PP race. 30 pt buy.
Samsarans and Astomoi get an Int/Wis ability score combination, so they're a solid pick (though Astomoi are more than a little weird). Human is always a good standby, and some people like Dhampir for negative channel clerics for obvious reasons. If you're going Wizard/Oracle then Peri-blooded Aasimar is good for getting Int/Cha ability score boosts.
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A Cerebremancer is 3.5, not Pathfinder. I think I'm going to make both PC's (I have HeroLab, can crank out character REALLY fast, lol)... and then maybe even bring both and see which would fit in better.
So either a
Trench Fighter/Cleric
Swashbuckler/Clericand a
Wizard/Cleric/MT
Arcanist/Cleric/MT
Wizard/Oracle/MT
Arcanist/Oracle/MTFirst guy will be a gun healer, and 2nd guy is going to be a undead controlling guy.
For the 2nd, I read that both the Undead Lord and Undead Master aren't worth it. Thoughts on archtypes or templates for the last guy? Should I blow the 2 levels and be a lich, or vampire?EDIT:
Also, best races suggestion? I can do any basic or advanced none 3PP race. 30 pt buy.
If you're going for MT, you should definately consider the apprentice class (only 1 level, but counts as 1 lvl Cleric AND 1 lvl wizard).
That way, you can go:
Apprentice 1/ Cleric 2 / wizard 2/ MT 7
In the current campaign I'm DMing, I've created a shopkeeper/CIA chief, a ratfolk MT (lvl 10) with small mice in eeeeevery city to do his espionage. It's fun :D
You're example doesn't qualify to go into MT. The prerequisite is to cast 2nd level spells, not be 3rd level in a class. You're spell casting for cleric and wizard are both at 1st level spells.
The Apprentice states that its level stacks with the apprenticed classes for the purposes of spells per day. As a result, an Apprentice 1 / Wizard 2 / Cleric 2 would be treated as a 3rd level Wizard and 3rd level Cleric for the purposes of their spells per day table, which means access to 2nd level spells.
If you're going to look into obscure 3PP sources, you should look into Eclectic Training from the Inner Sea Magic softcover. It's quite old and the rules are hard to find (not on D20PFSRD or AoN) but it greatly eases entry into Mystic Theurge and is 1st party.