Our king has decided to host a battle arena, to which my opponent is the dreaded rogue from our party. I’m a lvl 9 drow sorcerer(elemental bloodline), I was wondering for any tips or tricks to help me defeat him in an upcoming battle.
He’s a lvl 9 svirfneblin rogue, we will not be allowed to enter the arena with any magic spells activated, but magic will be allowed once it starts and magic items are allowed. The rogue is a SAP rogue build, specializes in(high) non lethal damage
This is my current gear
Headband of alluring cha +4
Eyes of the eagle
Robes of arcane heritage
Ring of freedom of movement
Ring of prot+2
Cloak of resist +3
Amulet of nat armor +1
Lesser quicken spell rod
Cast Fly and Greater Invisibility immediately, then cast Fireball so many times in a row that he's actually happy when you hit him with a Hold Person :P
I would have to retrain for hold person, it’s not currently one of my spells. If I lose initiative I’m pretty much guaranteed to lose
Emergency Force Sphere + Dimension Door = who cares who wins initiative
Emergency Force Sphere + Dimension Door = who cares who wins initiative
He's a 9th level Sorcerer, he only gets two 4th level spell selections (plus his bloodline spell, not that elemental body will be of much help).
One costly approach would be to get yourself a scroll of Contingent Scroll, then hook up a contingency to trigger something like a mirror image if someone tries to attack you. This technically bypasses the rules of the tournament, since the spell isn't activated until the contingency's conditions are met. That could buy you enough time to work your magic.
Emergency Force Sphere + Dimension Door = who cares who wins initiative
That. Right there.
YOU ARE A SPELLCASTER in an open arena where the poor bastard cannot hide from you. If he doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight (via some mechanism), he's utterly and thoroughly screwed. (He's a rogue; hit him with will-save magic, then do whatever you like.)
Cast Fly and Greater Invisibility immediately, then cast Fireball so many times in a row that he's actually happy when you hit him with a Hold Person :P
Right idea, but backwards: Hold Person first, then the Fireballs once his Evasion is turned off by being paralyzed and helpless.
He can blur and stealth, he also has deafness/blindness once a day
How big is the arena that you're fighting in? What are the dimensions? Like, is this a 30ftx30ftx30ft room? If so, Pit spells, Stinking Cloud, and Black Tentacles would do some serious work.
He can blur and stealth, he also has deafness/blindness once a day
If you get blinded, you're screwed. Almost all your spells require Line of Sight, so the only thing you'll be able to attack him with is Touch Spells and at a 50% miss chance. No bueno. You should have a wand of Remove Blindness. See if your GM will allow you to buy a Wand of Remove Blindness with 2-3 charges on it.
His dc for blindness is pretty low 16 I think, the size of the arena is undisclosed currently. The rogues subclass is a vexing dodger, who also has points in assassin. My idea was to win intiative, quicken greater invisible, quicken fireball, move 30 feet to another location, attack move, attack move
You should still have a counter to his blindness. At lvl 9 with a +3 Cloak, your Will Save is at least 9, but probably what... +10? +11ish? That's a roll of 4-5 or lower that can determine whether you win or lose the fight period, and you know that's how he's going to start the fight.
Emergency Force Sphere + Dimension Door = who cares who wins initiativeThat. Right there.
YOU ARE A SPELLCASTER in an open arena where the poor bastard cannot hide from you. If he doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight (via some mechanism), he's utterly and thoroughly screwed. (He's a rogue; hit him with will-save magic, then do whatever you like.)
My first instinct too. Having played both a rogue and a sorcerer... in a situation where the rogue has no flanking buddy and in an open area to negate the stealth... I definitely put the advantage with the caster. He MAY get one good hit if he wins initative, but after that? Should be all Sorcerer.
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You're a full caster with a fixed spell list. Knowing that list is probably most important to helping you. I assume the rogue in your party already knows your list, so you won't be giving anything away by posting it here?
We need your spell list and the size of the arena.
Okay, here's what you absolutely need to beat this guy spell-wise:
Emergency Force Sphere - in case you lose Initiative, OR, if he gets the upper hand on you and you know you're about to take a lot of dmg. It's 1round/level, so you probably want to activate this in round 1 regardless.
Fly - he's a rogue, so his primary way of dealing damage to you is going to be on the ground (unless he's ranged). Even if he's ranged, you still want the movement speed and the ability to Fly over your pits, clouds, black tentacles, etc.
Greater Invisibility AND/OR Rod of Quicken Vanish - You need to thwart his ability to hit you, and at least force him to use See Invis. You *should* have a back-up plan just in case he has some crazy way to remove your GInvis.
Dispel Magic - get rid of his See Invis, or anything else he buffs himself with. Tbh, if he doesn't have See Invis, you win. So be ready to cast Dispel at least twice; if you remove his See Invis, you win.
Fireball - "mostly" guaranteed damage, save for half, but he has Evasion, so...
Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness, or Heightened Color Spray - Save or Die. These win the fight. Have at least 1 Save or Die spell vs. Fort and vs. Will, those are the Rogue's two weak Saves.
Vanish - GTFO, use this with Quicken Rod in the middle of a round after you've casted but before you've done your move action. Obviously, don't use Quickened Vanish until you've removed his See Invis.
Mirror Image - This is one of the best low-level defense spells for a Sorc hands down.... once they're expended, recast it, profit.
Haste - because movement speed
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You don't actually need Dimension Door, that's kinda just fluff. If you lose Initiative, you need to have EFS bare minimum to absorb the initial damage, and once it's your turn, you can 5ft step, cast Fly without a Conc check, and then use an omnidirectional 60ft Move Action without provoking an AO. If he has Step Up... that complicates things, but your primary goal should be to get off the ground and turn invisible, then rain destruction in your own personal style.
I would really like to know what Feats and Traits you have? And what Element did you pick for your Bloodline? Lastly, did you trade out any of the Elemental Abilities for Blood Havoc/Piercing/Intensity?
Noone has mentioned it yet, but be aware that the svirfneblin rogue has SR 20! So, ~50% of your spells (if they are affected by spell resistance) will fail. Other than that, like others did say, hit him on his weak saves (i.e. Fort and Will saves).
Casting fire ball will most likely be very...VERY disappointing. First you'll have to beat his SR, than he gets his best save for NO damage. Hold Person semi-likewise. First you'll have to beat his SR, but usually, rogues have a weak(er) Will save.
See if you have any spells that are not affected by SR and target the Fort or Will save. Those will be your winning aces, once you've quickend greater invised away.
If the rogue wins initiative and can charge you, you're screwed. I'd expect around 55 dmg, for which you'd need a con of 16 to survive assuming average HD rolls. Maybe ask around if there's someone to lend you their Belt of Con?
If you can win initiative or tank the first hit, then I'd say it's an easy victory for you.
Edit:
He can blur and stealth, he also has deafness/blindness once a day
If you mean that he can use the concealment from the Blur spell to use Stealth, that's not how it works (any longer).
Cover and Concealment for Stealth: The reason a character usually needs cover or concealment to use Stealth is tied to the fact that characters can't use Stealth while being observed. A sneaking character needs to avoid all of an opponent's precise senses in order to use Stealth, and for most creatures, that means vision. Effects such as blur and displacement, which leave a clear visual of the character within the perceiving character's vision, aren't sufficient to use Stealth, but a shadowy area or a curtain work nicely, for example. The hide in plain sight class ability allows a creature to use Stealth while being observed and thus avoids this whole situation. A sneaking character can come out of cover or concealment during her turn, as long as she doesn't end her turn where other characters are directly observing her.
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I assume that his build is an intimidate build for unchained Rogue with the enforcer feat. Some fear immunity should be recommened.
At level 9 he would need to beat dc 21 (if you have a +2 wisdom modifier). If he beats the dc by 10 or more you are frightened unless you make a DC: 19 will save (I assume he has max ranks in intimidate) if he uses the unchained intimidate rules. He could just have the thug archtype to make you frightened on a hit.
If you hit him with a glitterdust it will make it almost impossibel for him to hide and possible blind him from the start.
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I've seen people recommending "emergency force sphere if you lose initiative." While emergency force sphere can give you breathing room after you've been attacked, this spell does not work before your first turn in a combat. EFS is an immediate action cast time, and you cannot use immediate actions if you are flat-footed (before you've acted in combat).
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation.
So if the rogue (1) wins initiative, (2) can move and attack in that round, and (3) hits, the sorcerer has to eat that damage. After that, the caster can EFS, go invisible, dimension door, or whatever else to [eventually] win the battle.
A lot of this sort of arena combat at level 9 with a relatively fixed sorcerer build (my assumption) depends on the arena TBH.
I've you can go first, cast invisibility.
He might be able to counter it, but he probably wont have it active before the fight start, which means he'll waste his turn doing so. Then you cast fly. He probably wont have access to fly, but if he does he still burns another turn countering your magic.
Next, cast summon monster and get as many lantern archons as you can. Keep summoning lantern archons and keep away from the rogue. It doesn't matter if he kills some archons. They have touch attacks that do 1d6 of damage that can't be resisted.
If you go second and he can reach you and attack, you're probably dead.
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Perhaps look from your opponents perspektive:
As a rogue I would prepare to have access to flight and see invisible. I would invest in initiativ to go first - should be easy with my sky high dex score.
Perhaps I have agile maneuvers to use dex for grapple.
I would use ready actions to attack (either ranged or melee) when you cast spells to force concentration checks.
I know, I have to hit hard and fast and to avoid retaliation. Step up feat is perfect for that. Step up is a prerequest for Press against the wall, which is good for flanking alone and even easier with flight.
But we can spekulate a lot. Perhaps you have som intel on your opponent?
I've you can go first, cast invisibility.
He might be able to counter it, but he probably wont have it active before the fight start, which means he'll waste his turn doing so. Then you cast fly. He probably wont have access to fly, but if he does he still burns another turn countering your magic.
Next, cast summon monster and get as many lantern archons as you can. Keep summoning lantern archons and keep away from the rogue. It doesn't matter if he kills some archons. They have touch attacks that do 1d6 of damage that can't be resisted.
If you go second and he can reach you and attack, you're probably dead.
My spell list is as follow
0 level: detect magic, mage hand, dancing lights, read magic1 level: true strike, snowball, glitter dust, mage armor, shield
2 level: invis, cats grace, see invis, web
3 level: fireball, dispel magic, slow
4 level: dimension door, greater invis
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment."
Edit: You posted your spell list while I was writing, so not all of this is useful:
So, obviously invisibility is your first choice for this, but it has counters. Other common means of concealment include Blur and Fog Cloud. It's unlikely the rogue will be prepared to counter them both. Not many sorcerers have Blur, but Fog Cloud is a really versatile spell that you should try to get.
Your spell list is very bad for this kind of fight. If you think the rogue has an easy counter for invisibility, then your only hope is to go first and hit him with slow. Even when slowed, you aren't going to have a good time beating him. He will just evasion most of your damage spells, so you're stuck casting snowballs.
Also, you can just clear Blindness with a dispel magic, so little to worry about there. Deafness may be a rougher thing for him to put on you, since then most of your spells will have a 20% failure rate, which you could still clear with dispel magic, if you're lucky enough for your spell to work at all that round.
If you mean that he can use the concealment from the Blur spell to use Stealth, that's not how it works (any longer).
This one is up for debate; it's unclear if that rules segment is a stealth-errata or a "prone shooter" style flub where the author made a rules error and the editor didn't catch it.
I know that I am not comfortable with a paragraph tucked in an advice and strategy chapter of a splatbook creating an arbitrary exception to a clear and unambiguous general rule. Why should blur be the only exception to the general rule on how stealth and concealment interact?
My spell list is as follow
0 level: detect magic, mage hand, dancing lights, read magic
1 level: true strike, snowball, glitter dust, mage armor, shield
2 level: invis, cats grace, see invis, web
3 level: fireball, dispel magic, slow
4 level: dimension door, greater invis
How'd you manage glitterdust as a 1st level spell?
You need to have some way to incapacitate him, but seem to lack that. Fireball and Snowball are your only damage-dealing options. Targeting reflex saves against a rogue would be a foolish approach, and I'd imagine his touch AC is high enough that snowball isn't exactly going to be reliable. You're going to need to find a good offensive option. You can restrict his movement, hamper him, even blind him with glitterdust, but you'll never win with this loadout.
When the Web spell gets hit with fire damage, it starts burning. I forget if that offers a ref save or not, but it's something?
I've you can go first, cast invisibility.
He might be able to counter it, but he probably wont have it active before the fight start, which means he'll waste his turn doing so. Then you cast fly. He probably wont have access to fly, but if he does he still burns another turn countering your magic.
Next, cast summon monster and get as many lantern archons as you can. Keep summoning lantern archons and keep away from the rogue. It doesn't matter if he kills some archons. They have touch attacks that do 1d6 of damage that can't be resisted.
If you go second and he can reach you and attack, you're probably dead.
My spell list is as follow
0 level: detect magic, mage hand, dancing lights, read magic
1 level: true strike, snowball, glitter dust, mage armor, shield
2 level: invis, cats grace, see invis, web
3 level: fireball, dispel magic, slow
4 level: dimension door, greater invis
With this spell list I don't see you winning.
The rogue will save against fireball and take no damage (probably).
Snowball was nerfed so that it no longer has a staggered effect.
You have no other damage dealing offensive spells.
You have some CC spells, that wont do much for you.
If you have money I would start investing in some scrolls or wands, because I don't see you winning this fight without better spells.
A Cleric should be a very doable opponent; bad reflex save and touch AC means he can just be snagged with web then pelted to death with snowballs.
Too late to buy gear/more magic now buddy, we’re in the tournament! Also, thanks for helping him try to figure out how to beat who he thought was going to be his opponent, but now he found out his first real opponent will be a level 10 cleric! Also, hilariously, the rogue drew what should have been an easy 1st round matchup vs a fighter, and while he won the initiative and should have easily won with sneak attack damage, he rolled a 1 to hit and has been getting pummeled as a result. Also the arena is 100X100 with spectators filling the seats surrounding the walls. Any damage to the spectators will disqualify you from the tournament!
Although I assumed to be fighting sasu, I still am adamant that him and I will fight in the future. I don’t care about them spectators. Elemental blast is an amazing spell, and I will use it!
Too late to buy gear/more magic now buddy, we’re in the tournament! Also, thanks for helping him try to figure out how to beat who he thought was going to be his opponent, but now he found out his first real opponent will be a level 10 cleric! Also, hilariously, the rogue drew what should have been an easy 1st round matchup vs a fighter, and while he won the initiative and should have easily won with sneak attack damage, he rolled a 1 to hit and has been getting pummeled as a result. Also the arena is 100X100 with spectators filling the seats surrounding the walls. Any damage to the spectators will disqualify you from the tournament!
That's actually a great improvement for our sorcerer. His CC spells can slow down the cleric and fireball and snow ball can take him out. The sorcerer should have a decent chance of winning.
Now, as far as the fighter vs rogue fight....I wouldn't call that a good matchup in favor of the rogue. Unless the rogue kills the fighter first round (unlikely) he's going to have hard time getting consistent sneak attack. Assuming an equal or higher level fighter, the rogue will most likely loose against a well built fighter. What will really hurt the rogue is unless they have a good method of getting multiple sneak attacks each round, their damage is going to be nothing compared to the fighter.
Too late to buy gear/more magic now buddy, we’re in the tournament! Also, thanks for helping him try to figure out how to beat who he thought was going to be his opponent, but now he found out his first real opponent will be a level 10 cleric! Also, hilariously, the rogue drew what should have been an easy 1st round matchup vs a fighter, and while he won the initiative and should have easily won with sneak attack damage, he rolled a 1 to hit and has been getting pummeled as a result. Also the arena is 100X100 with spectators filling the seats surrounding the walls. Any damage to the spectators will disqualify you from the tournament!That's actually a great improvement for our sorcerer. His CC spells can slow down the cleric and fireball and snow ball can take him out. The sorcerer should have a decent chance of winning.
Now, as far as the fighter vs rogue fight....I wouldn't call that a good matchup in favor of the rogue. Unless the rogue kills the fighter first round (unlikely) he's going to have hard time getting consistent sneak attack. Assuming an equal or higher level fighter, the rogue will most likely loose against a well built fighter. What will really hurt the rogue is unless they have a good method of getting multiple sneak attacks each round, their damage is going to be nothing compared to the fighter.
I did retrain into hold person, I have fireball, and I still have elemental blast, scorching Ray from my bloodline as well(even though elemental blast is once a day)
Wait a minute...
I though the rogue class was supposed to be considered not worth it, broken, and not competitive or viable at all unless using the unchained rules.
Interesting to me that so many are convinced the OP is done for if he loses initiative against a rogue, in single combat, without even asking if the rogue is unchained.
If the original rogue were truly non-competitive, this should have been one of the very first questions. Only *Khan* was considering it and worked a theory off an assumption of unchained & archetype.
So is the rogue unchained?
Any rogue will do OK if he has a reliable mechanic to end his turn hidden despite attacking.
Wait a minute...
I though the rogue class was supposed to be considered not worth it, broken, and not competitive or viable at all unless using the unchained rules.
It’s partly the principle of ceilings and floors. The rogue has a low ceiling but so does the sorcerer. And this sorcerer doesn’t have a strong solo spell list. But more importantly, the rules of the tournament are very punitive against this sorcerer, because he won’t be able to start with buffs he can generally be assumed to have at the start of a fight. And now we find out that area of effect spells are also much harder to use. It kind of feels like the DM is trying to give the sorcerer a hard time, but the cleric matchup may actually be easier for the spell list this sorcerer has to work with. I do worry the cleric may be able to tank and heal more damage than the sorcerer can dish out.
Wait a minute...
I though the rogue class was supposed to be considered not worth it, broken, and not competitive or viable at all unless using the unchained rules.
Ah, yes. Let this handy flowchart explain the situation.
How to not suck as a rogue
Do you depend on flanking? ---No---> You don't suck!
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That's basically the biggest mistake all rogues make, unchained or not. While there are builds that can certainly provide reliable flanking, such as Ratfolks or Leadership with a dedicated flanking partner, you normally waste turns moving around enemies trying to get one Sneak Attack.
There are a lot of ways to trigger Sneak Attack nowadays, much more so than when the game first came out and even Stealth didn't deny enemies dex-to-AC. The svirfneblin rogue is probably using the Scout archetype or Shatter Defenses to get Sap Master damage, which makes their build far more competitive than what most people remember the rogue being capable of.
Of course, any enemy with Uncanny Dodge or who is immune to Sneak Attack makes the svirfneblin go from hero to zero instantly.
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@Lelomenia
Quick Runner's Shirt was nerfed into the ground some time ago. No psuedo-pounce for your theoretical rogue!
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The rules and setting for this arena strongly favor some combat styles over others. This setting and rules favor the rogue over the sorcerer.
The Sorcerer probably still have a substantial edge, because rogues.
Any arena is going to favor some fighting styles over others. E.g. The modern Mixed Martial Arts 'octagon' favors grappling styles over striking styles, due to several factors. This is OK so long as it's noted as part of the 'context' of the fight.
Wait a minute...
I though the rogue class was supposed to be considered not worth it, broken, and not competitive or viable at all unless using the unchained rules.
Ah, yes. Let this handy flowchart explain the situation.
How to not suck as a rogue
Do you depend on flanking? ---No---> You don't suck!
====
That's basically the biggest mistake all rogues make, unchained or not. While there are builds that can certainly provide reliable flanking, such as Ratfolks or Leadership with a dedicated flanking partner, you normally waste turns moving around enemies trying to get one Sneak Attack.
There are a lot of ways to trigger Sneak Attack nowadays, much more so than when the game first came out and even Stealth didn't deny enemies dex-to-AC. The svirfneblin rogue is probably using the Scout archetype or Shatter Defenses to get Sap Master damage, which makes their build far more competitive than what most people remember the rogue being capable of.
Of course, any enemy with Uncanny Dodge or who is immune to Sneak Attack makes the svirfneblin go from hero to zero instantly.
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@Lelomenia
Quick Runner's Shirt was nerfed into the ground some time ago. No psuedo-pounce for your theoretical rogue!
He’s actually a vexing dodger archetype, and he does not have shatter defenses, although he has said if he doesn’t retrain back to lethal damage, he’s going to retrain into shatter defenses
He’s actually a vexing dodger archetype, and he does not have shatter defenses, although he has said if he doesn’t retrain back to lethal damage, he’s going to retrain into shatter defenses
Surprising yet so expected.
Shatter Defenses should work great for Kingmaker, as I don't think there are many enemies immune to fear effects there. Anything but relying on flanking should be an upgrade.