I'm finishing up the details and houserules for my upcoming Rise of the Runelords: PF2 Edition campaign. After a lot of playtesting, me and my players came to the conclusion that we love PF2, but we absolutely can't stand classic Vancian casting, so I'm houseruling it away in favor of the Arcanist/Neo-vancian style.
Currently I have so that casters can prepare an amount of spells equal to Level + Casting Stat Modifier (like 5e), and they can cast any prepared spell using a level-appropriate slot as normal for Arcanist Casting. However, my biggest issue has been how to give more stuff to Bards and Sorcerers to make them not completely obsolete. More spell points? Individually buff all of their powers? I'm not sure, so I'm here asking those who have more system mastery to help me with this. If you have a better way of determining the number of prepared spells that would be great too, I'm satisfied but not set in stone with the current one.
IMO spontaneous casters should have both more spell casts in a day and more spell versatility in a given day. Prepared casters are only stronger in their ability to change their spells every day. You could give spontaneous casters one more spell slot of each level and make their number of spells known equal to 1.5 * level + casting stat (or, more elegantly, start with 2 + casting stat and increase by 1 every even level and 2 every odd level).
You should also consider giving both spontaneous heightening of all spells. It's less frustrating to play and is far more helpful for spontaneous casters who can't change their repertoire constantly.
Giving spontaneous casters spontaneous heightening was an obvious choice, but there are two things that worry me about this. One is, as Mark Seifter has said, excessive bookkeeping since a lot of spells have completely different effects when heightened. The second one is completely unbalancing Sorcerer Bloodlines, since the ones that have heightenable spells will become a lot stronger than the other ones. Still unsure about this part...
If you are strongly worried about the balancing factors between the bloodline spells for Sorcerers, make them an exception and don't allow them to by default be auto-heightened, or make them pick a single one which one can be auto-heightened per day. (similar to the stock method)
Something you will need to determine, is what to do with effects that grant you an extra slot (used for school power) or even more important, a slot for you to cast a spell you already cast. (i.e. being able to recast an expended spell, which is by default now)
Also, keep in mind cantrips. You probably want to restrict how many of them can be chosen and have infinite castings with auto-heightening. (meaning, you might be able to if you don't otherwise normally do spell availability by level, you might have a cantrip selection, and a other spell selection, but if they filled the normal spell selection with an extra cantrip, casting it would eat up a slot for the casting per the level used.
My first thought would be to have them pick per level, and give them the number of spells based on their slots. I'd probably make domain spells actually simply always be added as bonus prepared spells automatically, without taking up a choice spot. Prepared caster would prepare particular spell level version of a particular spell unless they use some sort of feat to be able to apply a metamagic action to a spell to shift it during casting to a different spell level.
Spontaneous casters, I think should be able to by default be able to spontaneously heighten any/most spell on the fly, and have a similar number of spells known as prepared casters can prepare. Their balancing factor being that swapping spell choices out is limited to leveling, or relatively time consuming downtime activities.
Granted, both these options are pretty much outright Buffs to spellcasting, so it could be viewed as shifting the martial/caster balance. Your idea of simply having a spell list would give you an option to shorten the list, reducing this shift, making it less of an outright Buff. However, this also makes it harder for them to justify putting one of those rarer utility spells in their preparation list, and makes it harder to accept the idea of a prepared caster needing to specify a level for a particular spell. It seems like they specifically tried to remove spellcasting attribute from number of spells prepared, so I worry adding it may be going against original design goals. (but yet, this is homebrew, so not an absolute problem)
If I went that route, I'd think you need to separate cantrips from other spells from your list. And I'd probably do something like cantrips as before as a separate preparation (since they don't expire) and then have other spells for prepared casters be a list of (1+level) + potential bonus spells added to list automatically. Or you could make it Level + casting rank bonus + relevant bonus spells. That would mean a 1st level cleric with trained in religion would get 1 +2 + bonuses or specifically then 3 + their domain bonus spell, as spells in their active prepared list. Which this would be a boost from RAW not my intent but doing 1/2 casting rank bonus seems odd.
Spontaneous caster might simply be 2xlevel + bloodline spells
Actually, here is a simple option for auto-heightening spells. If one learns/expends two versions of the spells, that expenditure covers all versions of the spell. Spontaneous casters only have spells known, so if they spend two spell slots to know two versions they know and can cast at any time any version. If a prepared caster learns/knows two versions, they know all versions of levels they can cast if they write it out in their spell book. If they prepare one spell known, they can cast that prepared spell level. If they prepare it using two spots, they can cast it at any level they can cast. Bloodline spells, grant the specified level. If they choose to pick up a heightened version with their spells known choices, they will be able to heighten it as much as they want. Oh... another thought was that i'd consider giving sorcerers an extra cantrip known every so often as they advance.
Then there are aspects of Wand/Staff usage that you will want to make sure you clarify. Using the wand/staff you can cast a spell not known, but using your spell slot, etc.
On another note:
I have to admit, that I think I finally may understand part of why the designers have sorcerer's work like they do. They seem to feel like sorcerer's don't per say understand the magic they cast, instead they simply replicate it. In that replication, it seems like their view is they reproduce each as if it were made by cookie cutter.
My natural impression of them agree's with the, not necessarily 'understanding' the finesse nature of the spell, but instead seeming to have an almost nozzle that will release that magic. It makes sense that based on their natural pressure within themselves (level of caster) and how open they release this raw power it makes sense they would be able to produce varying spell levels instances of specific spells, by changing the amount of energy piped into the spell.
I view the wizard, as having to learn how to harness/gather the right amount of energy for a specific instance of a spell, meaning, for me, heightening is a bigger, more focused detail for them, than for a sorcerer, whom it would seem simply natural.
Up until now I really couldn't understand why the wizard/prepared casters seemed to be designed to be more flexible at the moment with individual castings than sorcerers before.
Yes, cantrips are going to be separate, you can't prepare more or less of them, and they don't count towards the normal prepared list, it will just be the amount of cantrips the class already says you can prepare on the Spellcasting feature.
About the effects that give and extra slot, I'm probably going to do it like this: If it's a non-specific extra slot you can use for anything, like the Sorcerer's, no changes necessary. If they are specific, like the Wizard's, that slot is going to be classic Vancian, so you prepare a specific spell to cast with that slot beforehand. For Drain Arcane Focus, I'll basically keep it the way it is, you can mimic a spell you've already cast of that level, this can be an interesting mechanic.
Also, yes, they are straight up buffs for spellcasters, but since this is going to happen in the final version and Paizo actually recognized that they nerfed spellcasters too hard, I don't see that as a problem.
How can you be sure this is going to happen in the final version?
How can you be sure this is going to happen in the final version?
I'm talking about buffing spellcasters, not the neo-Vancian casting thing. General buffs to spellcasting have been confirmed by Jason both here at the forums and in the latest Paizo stream.
I always saw spontaneous heightening as part of the arcanist spell casting style. It feels really weird to implement that kind of spellcasting style and not include spontaenous heightening. In Pf1 we had caster lvls so it was sort automatic.
Either wau I suggets keeping it simple. BArds and Sorcs gain extra spel slots. Maybe 5 per lvl.
One other compromise is to not allow spontaneous heightening completely, but to instead allow one spontaneous heightening choice per spell level. At 3rd level, their current loadouts remain unchanged. When they get 5th and higher, they get more spontaneous heightening choices and slots, to a max of 10 at 20th level. Some bookkeeping, yes, but nowhere near as paralytic or time-consuming as the alternative. I'd probably still include the Bloodline Heightening feat, but I'd remove Additional Heightening.
Similarly, the Arcanist style casting in PF1 still has the benefits of changing your entire loadout per day, but still requiring memorizing different levels of spells (as was the case with Metamagic Spells in PF1) for having those different effects, which balances out the free heightening (but reduced spells known flexibility).
One other compromise is to not allow spontaneous heightening completely, but to instead allow one spontaneous heightening choice per spell level. At 3rd level, their current loadouts remain unchanged. When they get 5th and higher, they get more spontaneous heightening choices and slots, to a max of 10 at 20th level. Some bookkeeping, yes, but nowhere near as paralytic or time-consuming as the alternative. I'd probably still include the Bloodline Heightening feat, but I'd remove Additional Heightening.
Similarly, the Arcanist style casting in PF1 still has the benefits of changing your entire loadout per day, but still requiring memorizing different levels of spells (as was the case with Metamagic Spells in PF1) for having those different effects, which balances out the free heightening (but reduced spells known flexibility).
I made Bards prepared spellcasters like Edge93 mentioned, it fits a lot better into the Bard fantasy that me and my players have, and it's easier to balance leaving only the Sorcerer as spontaneous. Since Additional Heightening was a spontaneous Bard feat I just removed it and made so that Sorcerers increase their Spontaneous Heightening by one extra spell at levels 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18. They can still pick Bloodline Heightening if they want to but I don't find it necessary.
I'm also in the process of individually buffing the Bloodline Powers to make them more significant and a real benefit of being a Sorcerer instead of just "You also have this small thingy here".
@Edge93 Since you suggested turning the Bard into a prepared caster, would you have any ideas on how to improve the Bard a little bit with they not having the advantage of being a spontaneous caster anymore? Or do you think this isn`t necessary with Arcanist Casting? I`m not sure about that.
In my own houserules I allowed Sorcerers to expend Focus to switch out their spontheight as an action (they also get extra Focus for this).
I think this would fit the theme better, allowing sorcerer to take a moment to collect their power before blasting things out.
But I agree that the greatest concern with Arcanist casting is to wreck Sorcerer's niche.
(love the prepared bard!)
In my own houserules I allowed Sorcerers to expend Focus to switch out their spontheight as an action (they also get extra Focus for this).
I think this would fit the theme better, allowing sorcerer to take a moment to collect their power before blasting things out.But I agree that the greatest concern with Arcanist casting is to wreck Sorcerer's niche.
(love the prepared bard!)
Yeah it's being the hardest thing for me. I find it pretty sad that the class has been build (mechanically) around the concept of "not using that other casting system that kinda sucks", but I'm working on it, especially in upping their Powers. I've removed Resonance and Focus from my game but I'll probably let them switch spontaneous heightenable spells with an action and a Spell Point, cool idea!
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Frankly, if the Sorcerer's advantage is to be more flexible in his narrowness, then I want it to be so.
If you use Arcanist casting, just change Spontaneous Heighten to this:
Spontaneous Heighten (Metamagic, Sorcerer, Free Action):
Trigger: You start to cast a spell that has a Heighten option. The spell must have a casting time of 2 actions or less.
You add a Somatic casting action to the triggering spell. You can use a spell slot of a higher level to cast that spell, and apply any heightening benefit as appropriate for the spell slot used.
Don't add a resource cost to it, but don't make it free free either.
Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but have you considered not letting prepared casters spontaneously heighten stuff? That's a pretty significant way to make the sorcerer feel different but still viable under the same mechanics. They may or may not need a little more access to spontaneous heightening to even the score, but it seems like a good starting point.
The other thing you could try is limited the number of spells that can be prepared to be less than the number of spells a sorcerer can know.
If you're looking for a more off-the-rails idea for buffing a caster, there's a houserule I'm working on that might be worth borrowing part of:
Basicaly, if you crit with a spell or a target crit fails against your spell and the spell deals damage, it applies a minor debuff for one round depending on the damage type of the spell:
Fire, Enfeebled 1
Lightning, Sluggish 1
Cold, Hampered 10
Acid, Enfeebled 1
Sonic, Stupefied 1
Mental, Stupefied 1
Positive/Negative, Drained 1
Force, nothingAnd furthermore, if you are Expert or better in casting you can add an action to a spell cast to get that effect on a normal hit (or failed save), and apply the stat for 1 minute on a crit.
Master bumped it to 1 minute for a crit (or hit with extra action) and the level 2 version of the debuff for a crit with the extra action.
Maybe giving something like that, tweaked as needed, to a caster you think needs a buff could be fun?
I made the rule initially to work with weapon damage as well as I wanted to differentiate the damage types but you're just looking for caster stuff so...
I actually had this idea of the debuffs on a crit before the playtest came up. Apparently they tested it and it was way too much to track for most GMs with different creatures suffering different effects.
Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but have you considered not letting prepared casters spontaneously heighten stuff? That's a pretty significant way to make the sorcerer feel different but still viable under the same mechanics. They may or may not need a little more access to spontaneous heightening to even the score, but it seems like a good starting point.
The other thing you could try is limited the number of spells that can be prepared to be less than the number of spells a sorcerer can know.
I know I've suggested this before in other threads, so let's call it "convergent good ideas". Specifically, I remember noting that it seemed like reinventing how 3rd Edition thought Wizards and Sorcerers were supposed to work, anyway, except it has a chance of working as long as scrolls and other consumables (the ones that bypass a Wizard's limits on spells per day and diversity of spells available) are kept under control.
Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but have you considered not letting prepared casters spontaneously heighten stuff? That's a pretty significant way to make the sorcerer feel different but still viable under the same mechanics.
Actually that is already the case in my system, prepared casters still need to prepare spells in different levels if they want to cast the heightened version.
I actually had this idea of the debuffs on a crit before the playtest came up. Apparently they tested it and it was way too much to track for most GMs with different creatures suffering different effects.
Yes, that is why I will not use something like this as well, too much to track and too much bookkeeping.
The other thing you could try is limited the number of spells that can be prepared to be less than the number of spells a sorcerer can know.
That is also already the case in my system. Sorcerers know 4 spells at level 1, plus a new one for each spell slot they gain, plus the bonus ones from the Bloodline. Prepared casters can prepare Level + Casting Modifier. At level 5 a Sorcerer already knows a total of 13 spells while a prepared caster can prepare 9 if they have an 18 in their main stat.
Since I know that you speak Portuguese, maybe my house rules could help you...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9WDHzEqQxmMwwZv6a6pND02CWUnARZhuNU7XjM 2JQ4/edit?usp=drivesdk
I'm really interested in this but I'm finding it hard to keep up. Can you share your house rules for this in their entirety?
I'm really interested in this but I'm finding it hard to keep up. Can you share your house rules for this in their entirety?
I currently have them at:
Prepared casters work like in 5th Edition, they can prepare a sublist of Level + Casting stat modifier spells to be avaliable from that day and can cast spontaneously from that list. They still need to prepare spells multiple times if they want to heighten.
Bard is now a prepared caster, leaving only Sorcerer as spontaneous. They have a Spell Book just like the Wizard.
Sorcerers start with 4 spells known, still learning a new one with each new spell slot. They also increase the amount of spells they can use with Spontaneous Heightening by 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17. I'm also in the process of individually buffing some of the Bloodline powers. One example is Dragon Breath which now deals 6d6 + 2d6 per heighening level.
Wizards had Quick Preparation removed. Specialist Wizards gain an extra "School Slot" per spell level. Those ones still work like classic Vancian, you prepare one extra spell of your school in each of those slots and can only use them to cast that spell.
Since I know that you speak Portuguese, maybe my house rules could help you...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9WDHzEqQxmMwwZv6a6pND02CWUnARZhuNU7XjM 2JQ4/edit?usp=drivesdk
Well... the link is broken for me.
....
I currently have them at:Prepared casters work like in 5th Edition, they can prepare a sublist of Level + Casting stat modifier spells to be avaliable from that day and can cast spontaneously from that list. They still need to prepare spells multiple times if they want to heighten.
Bard is now a prepared caster, leaving only Sorcerer as spontaneous. They have a Spell Book just like the Wizard.
Sorcerers start with 4 spells known, still learning a new one with each new spell slot. They also increase the amount of spells they can use with Spontaneous Heightening by 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17. I'm also in the process of individually buffing some of the Bloodline powers. One example is Dragon Breath which now deals 6d6 + 2d6 per heighening level.
Wizards had Quick Preparation removed. Specialist Wizards gain an extra "School Slot" per spell level. Those ones still work like classic Vancian, you prepare one extra spell of your school in each of those slots and can only use them to cast that spell.
....
It seems like a Wizard with 18 INT would then start with more spontaneous spell selection than a sorcerer. I'd suggest that doesn't make any sense, and should not be allowed to occur. I think they removed spellcasting attribute from spells prepared per day for a reason, and I would argue, it shouldn't be added back in play. By adding spellcasting attribute modifier to your selection, you cause a 1st level caster, not only have spontaneous choice of their spells, you also give them more choices right out of the gate. It would take several levels before you would probably start getting to a reasonable balanced state compared to the sorcerer. It would take two levels per casting bonus before the prepared caster would lose this starting edge.
If you are concerned about wizards not having enough choice without the bonus, I'd suggest allowing specialist's Vancian slot count as a prepared spell. The slot would only be able to be used to cast that spell, but other Arcanist slots would also be able to cast the chosen school spell using those slots too if the caster chose to. Also, I'd rather have the wizard be severely limited in choice at low levels, and be able to swap out with access to a spellbook, than have a low level wizard have more flexible instantaneous casting choices than a sorcerer at first level just because they chose to max their INT to 18 like many would.
I know that many people have claimed sorcerers should have more daily slots, but I got to where I felt like sorcerers should have better 'stamina' but not necessarily better ability to go supernova. An option to consider would be allow a sorcerer the ability to with a short rest, once per day, per spell level. If that all that level's slots have already been expended, they can reset one of that levels slots to be available once again. (i.e. one extra spell slot per day, per spell level, but only after expending the last one of that level and resting) I think it is something you can give sorcerers that isn't overpowering, but would help them regain some niche.
It seems like a Wizard with 18 INT would then start with more spontaneous spell selection than a sorcerer. I'd suggest that doesn't make any sense, and should not be allowed to occur. I think they removed spellcasting attribute from spells prepared per day for a reason, and I would argue, it shouldn't be added back in play. By adding spellcasting attribute modifier to your selection, you cause a 1st level caster, not only have spontaneous choice of their spells, you also give them more choices right out of the gate. It would take several levels before you would probably start getting to a reasonable balanced state compared to the sorcerer. It would take two levels per casting bonus before the prepared caster would lose this starting edge.
If you are concerned about wizards not having enough choice without the bonus, I'd suggest allowing specialist's Vancian slot count as a prepared spell. The slot would only be able to be used to cast that spell, but other Arcanist slots would also be able to cast the chosen school spell using those slots too if the caster chose to. Also, I'd rather have the wizard be severely limited in choice at low levels, and be able to swap out with access to a spellbook, than have a low level wizard have more flexible instantaneous casting choices than a sorcerer at first level just because they chose to max their INT to 18 like many would.
I know that many people have claimed sorcerers should have more daily slots, but I got to where I felt like sorcerers should have better 'stamina' but not necessarily better ability to go supernova. An option to consider would be allow a sorcerer the ability to with a short rest, once per day, per spell level. If that all that level's slots have already been expended, they can reset one of that levels slots to be available once again. (i.e. one extra spell slot per day, per spell level, but only after expending the last one of that level and resting) I think it is something you can give sorcerers that isn't overpowering, but would help them regain some niche.
You have a point here. Maybe it should just be 2 + level, so at level 1 they can prepare 3 spells (4 for Specialist Wizard) and the Sorcerer knows 4 + 1 from the Bloodline, it smoothes the curve a little bit and they start ahead from level 1. It also makes so that not starting with an 18 in your casting stat isn't basically crippling your character.
I'll also add your change to the School Slot, makes it easier to understand and a little bit better.
It seems like a Wizard with 18 INT would then start with more spontaneous spell selection than a sorcerer. I'd suggest that doesn't make any sense, and should not be allowed to occur. I think they removed spellcasting attribute from spells prepared per day for a reason, and I would argue, it shouldn't be added back in play. By adding spellcasting attribute modifier to your selection, you cause a 1st level caster, not only have spontaneous choice of their spells, you also give them more choices right out of the gate. It would take several levels before you would probably start getting to a reasonable balanced state compared to the sorcerer. It would take two levels per casting bonus before the prepared caster would lose this starting edge.
I don't think there'd be a problem with having the Sorcerer always have more spells known than the wizard has prepared, but this doesn't seem like as big or as persistent an issue as you imply - at 1st level, the Wizard prepares 5 spells and the Sorcerer knows 3 (2 of their choice + 1 from their bloodline), which is certainly an advantage at the very beginning, but by 3rd level they are equal (the Sorcerer knows 5 normal spells + 2 bloodline spells while the wizard prepares 7 spells), and by 5th level the sorcerer is some ways ahead (8 normal spells + 3 bloodline spells VS 9 spells prepared) and only becomes more so the higher level they get. Certainly not two levels per casting bonus.
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Seriously... what is everyones' obsession with jamming Arcanist style casting into all sorts of classes it has no right being shoved into?
While I'd like to see a Bloodline for Sorcerer, and a Wizard School that ALLOWS them to dump the Vancian Advancement, I also know that they would quite literally need to have an unique Spell list to counter the insane convenience of having the of both Worlds. Perhaps something along the lines of delayed Spell Level Advancement whereby they gain only Cantrips at level 1, and once they hit level 2 they start on the same Spell/Day/Known table that their base Class normally gets at a -1 level adjustment.
This is a compromise I'm willing to accept, but simply wholesale replacing all the Canon and tradition of Prepared & Spont Casters just so it is easier for a Player to spend a day resting to negate the consequences of their choices (That's really what this all comes down to, players being upset they learned/memorized the wrong spell).
It is either that, or they print a new Arcanist Class which has new, improved, and differentiated (Seriously not the reflavoring as a Wiz-Lite ala PF1) way that they access, use, and learn Magic.
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Seriously... what is everyones' obsession with jamming Arcanist style casting into all sorts of classes it has no right being shoved into?
Maybe because we find classic Vancian a terrible system that punishes players for not predicting the future with being useless for the day and we don't want it in our game...?
I mean, I don't want to get inflamatory but we just want to houserule away a system that we don't like, saying that it's an "obsession with Arcanist casting" and basically "It's just a bunch of casuals" sounds pretty disrespectul of those who don't like the same things as you, in my opinion.
I have an extensive thread where I mention all the reasons I think Vancian casting is bad for the game, and other people mentioned theirs as well in the comments, you could read that and try to understand why some people want to do this.
Also, for me and the majority of other people that dislike the revolver spellcasting thing, just having the Arcanist as a class again in PF2 doesn't solve anything. Okay, if you want to be a Wizard but you dislike Vancian you can be an Arcanist. What about the other classes? Are we going to have a Primalist, a Divinist and an Occultist as well? Even if that's going to be the case (it isn't), they're not gonna have the same flavor.
I like Vancian.
That said, many people don’t, and it’s not a dealbreaker for me.
All I really want is for spontaneous and prepared to have meaningful differences and not get screwed over IF arcanist style makes a comeback.
I like Vancian.
That said, many people don’t, and it’s not a dealbreaker for me.All I really want is for spontaneous and prepared to have meaningful differences and not get screwed over IF arcanist style makes a comeback.
This sums up my feelings almost exactly. It's not even that I like revolver spells themselves as I just haven't seen something I like better with keeping the spontaneous and prepared divide meaningful.
That said, I'm interested to here if the buffs to sorcerers do the trick. But I'll let others playtest it before I make the change myself.
That said, I'm interested to here if the buffs to sorcerers do the trick. But I'll let others playtest it before I make the change myself.
I'm going to use this in my upcoming campaign, that is... a month from now, probably. Whenever I feel like we've had enough playing experience I can tell you how it went, if my terrible memory lets me.
That said, I'm interested to here if the buffs to sorcerers do the trick. But I'll let others playtest it before I make the change myself.I'm going to use this in my upcoming campaign, that is... a month from now, probably. Whenever I feel like we've had enough playing experience I can tell you how it went, if my terrible memory lets me.
You should just keep a campaign journal going as you play!
So far this all seems like heavily complicating a system that the people in here already dislike for being complicated.
There are some good points and good ideas for a home brew casting system; it just feels it’s going in the wrong direction atm.
Apparently I was brewing up a homemade system that sounds very close to this ‘arcanist’ casting; so i’ll throw in my measured two cents when I think it through a little more and get the chance to post it.
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Seriously... what is everyones' obsession with jamming Arcanist style casting into all sorts of classes it has no right being shoved into?
....
Some people find the Vancian system odd and even confusing. I'm used to it, but admit that it is took getting used to. I don't find it confusing at all that people find other methods a better fit to tell stories in, since I don't think most story writers think about there characters in those terms.
I find it more interesting that those who actually say they have read Vance's novels point out that the D&D Vancian system doesn't reflect the use in the novels, as they don't lose the pattern after casting the spell all the time as is part of the traditional D&D Vancian casting.
Where I do sympathize with you is that it seems difficult to imagine a reasonable way of allowing a wizard to choose to forego Vancian casting and balance it reasonably alongside a Vancian wizard per RAW.
However, your statement about having a Bloodline that allows a Sorcerer to not do Vancian casting is downright baffling. Sorcerers don't use the Vancian mechanic, so why suggest have a bloodline that allows them to dump what they don't have, doesn't make sense.
But lets take the dilemma at face value. If we accept that it would be reasonable to leave Vancian preparation as a balanced option, it means that the Arcanist preparation casting needs to not simply be a flat bluff of the Vancian preparation spell caster. (and should be true for any level) Next, the new Arcanist preparation caster also has to not be a clear buff over the spontaneous caster at any level either. This is not particularly simple to do.
If you give a 1st level Arcanist preparation caster the ability to pick 2 spells plus a potential school spell, then they have all the same advantage that a sorcerer, our spontaneous caster has, which obviously seems wrong or at least imbalanced right out of the gate. If you give them only access to prepare one spell, it means the universalist school Arcanist will only have one 1st level spell they can cast, admittedly 2 times that day, and perhaps once more as a drain focus. Only being able to pick one first level spell per day at first level seems a bit un-fun to me, to be completely honest.
Actually, here is an idea. Give the new prepared casters the ability to prepare 4 + their level in spells. However, have it INCLUDE cantrips. They can never choose more than 5 cantrips (or less than one) using this pool. Then a 1st level Arcanist Wizard could potentially prepare 1 cantrip, and 3 1st level spells. If they were an evocation school specialist, they would get a bonus cantrip prepared, and 1st level spell prepared, and slot to cast that spell. This gives them a lot more flexibility, at the potential cost of cantrips they can use throughout the day(which cantrips are another form of flexibility). For a 1st level Arcanist to roughly have the flexibility in first level spells, on the same day as any individual sorcerer, they would have to give up two cantrips giving them (3 cantrips and 2 1st level spells) that day, which would mean they would have nearly half as many cantrips available through the day as the compared against equivalent level sorcerer would have. It becomes a give and take. Even at the low level, you get different advantages by choosing any of the three types of spell casting.
You could even allow sorcerers the option of reducing the number of Cantrips in their spell repertoire if they really wanted to, although I don't know if it would be necessary, or that often taken.
[edited after verifying that as of update 1.6 all spellcasters start with 5 cantrips instead of 4]
A more extensive explanation of what I have as of now with an analysis at the end:
Note: Those changes are all in relation to what's current official in version 1.6.
Prepared Casters
Can prepare a sublist of 3 + Level spells to be avaliable for that day and can spontaneously cast from that list. They still need to prepare a spell as a higher level version to heighten.
Bard is now one of them and uses a spell book with the same rules as the Wizard's.
Cleric
Most of the individual Domain Powers will be buffed to be more significant.
General Spells
Spells that remove specific effects like Remove Curse, Fear, Disease and Paralysis have a counteract level one level higher than their spell level.
Sorcerer
Sorcerers start with 4 spells known, learning a new one with each new spell slot and gaining the extra ones from the Bloodline as usual.They also increase the amount of spells they can use with Spontaneous Heightening by 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17.
Most of the individual Bloodline Powers will be buffed to be more significant.
Wizard
Quick Preparation and Drain Arcane Focus were removed from all Wizards.
Specialist Wizards get to prepare one extra cantrip of their school and one extra spell of their school of each spell level. They also get one extra spell slot per spell level that can only be used to cast a spell from their school.
Universalist Wizards get one extra spell slot per spell level that can be used to cast any spell of that level. They still gain one extra 1st level Wizard feat.
PS: Cantrips were not changed, prepared casters still prepare 5 of them to be avaliable for the day and the Sorcerer knows 5 + 1 from the Bloodline.
Level 1
Sorcerer knows: 5
Universalist Wizard has: 8 Prepares: 4
Specialist Wizard has: 8 Prepares: 5
Level 3
Sorcerer knows: 9
Universalist Wizard has: 12 Prepares: 6
Specialist Wizard has: 12 Prepares: 8
Level 5
Sorcerer knows: 13
Universalist Wizard has: 16 Prepares: 8
Specialist Wizard has: 16 Prepares: 11
Level 11
Sorcerer knows: 24
Universalist Wizard has: 28 Prepares: 14
Specialist Wizard has: 28 Prepares: 20
Level 20
Sorcerer knows: 38
Universalist Wizard has: 46 Prepares: 23
Specialist Wizard has: 46 Prepares: 32
Comparing them, the Sorcerer definetly has the biggest number of avaliable options during each day and freedom to use those options, but they can't switch their spells. Specialized Wizards have a decent number of options but they are more restricted, since they need to prepare (and cast) at least one spell of their school per spell level. Universalist Wizards have a narrower amount of simultaneously avaliable options but can use basically anything they want. It is also important to note that Sorcerers have more class feat "slots" and their powers will be made more important.
The other prepared casters (now including the Bard) will have the same base numbers as an Universalist Wizard. They don't have the extra spell slots but they have other features to compensate for that, which was already the case in the version that's in the book.
Is it the most balanced or well-made system in the world? Probably not, but it looks... useable. I'll still refine what needs to be refined (still open to suggestions) for probably a month and start playtesting it in my upcoming campaign. I'll probably use it for the next 8 months before the final PF2 release and then figure out what to do depending on how spellcasing is handled in the final version.
Are you sure you want a 1st level Specialist Wizard having the same number of spells prepared as a sorcerer has totally known?
In the case of the 1st level sorcerer, they get 4 spells they chose, plus the one determined by bloodline.
In the case of the 1st level wizard, you have them preparing 4 spells, plus a bonus spell prepared that is limited to their school.
This means that both are selecting spells during the day from a list of 5 spells. The wizard can however pick all of those spells each day, with the limitation that the bonus one has to be from their school.
In the case of the sorcerer, they chose four of the spells, but can't readily change them. The fifth, rather than taken from a limited set, is a spell that is explicitly chosen for them by their bloodline.
With that in mind, and considering your intent is to buff the RAW casters in general, that you still consider either dropping the prepared casters to 2 +level, or boost sorcerers with an extra spell known starting at first level. This based on the fact I don't think that a 1st level prepared caster should be able to have as many spells available as the same level sorcerer.
Are you sure you want a 1st level Specialist Wizard having the same number of spells prepared as a sorcerer has totally known?
I've though about most of your points here when I was revising all of that stuff. I've also talked to some of my players and came to the conclusion that 2+Level felt like too little, especially in the early levels. And the Sorcerer starting with 5+Bloodline felt like they would end up having a ton of first level spells for just 3 slots to actually cast them.
Is it ideal that a specialist Wizard ended up preparing as many spells as a Sorcerer knows at 1st level? Probably not. But it's how things eneded up being.
Also, here are two things to consider:
First, a level one character has only two spell slots. Both Specialist Wizards and Sorcerers have an extra third one, but Wizards are locked into what they can use this slot for. When you only have 3, one of them being not so versatile is pretty significant.
Second, the Sorcerer's powers will be buffed, which means that they'll be more significant as a resource. At the lower levels, having Charisma Mod extra resources is proportionally more significant because of how little spell slots you have. Of course Wizards have powers as well but they are very minor stuff.
Also, yes, while my main intent with this is getting rid of revolver spells, I am aware that those changes will increase the power level of casters in general, and I find this a positive thing, considering they are generally regarded as "overnerfed" in the playtest rules, even Paizo aknowledged that.
If you wanted to houserule something like Arcanist spellcasting there are only a handful of things that you would need to do.
Prepared Casters
1. When you prepare spells for the day you are selecting the spells that you have available to cast for the day. Heightened spells are prepared ahead of time in a higher level spell slot as normal.
2. You can cast any spell that you have prepared for the day as many times as you have available spells. For example, if you prepare Invisibility as a 4th level spell it gains the heighten effect. You can then cast that as many times as you want provided you have available spells of 4th level or higher to use.
Spontaneous Casters
1. You have a more limited selection of spells when compared to prepared casters and can only change spells when you level using the existing rules. When you select your spells you must take the lowest level version of the spell.
2. When you cast your spells you can spontaneously heighten them by expending a higher level spell slot to cast the spell. For example, if you learn the Invisibility spell then you can cast it using a 2nd level or higher spell slot. If you cast it using a 4th level or higher spell slot then it gains the heightened effect.
3. Some miscellaneous cleanup may be needed for any spontaneous casters that have spontaneous heightening options. Using these rules you would remove those from the class where appropriate.
Regarding Specialist Wizards preparing the same number of spells as a Sorcerer has known, the way I look at that they are much more likely to use those slots to prepare heightened versions of one or two of their core spells so they have a little bit of flexibility.
Sure they can vary their spells a little more if they want to be able to cover more options but it shouldn't be too big of an issue.
Sorcerers have other things going for them outside of just their known spells.
One idea i like most with the theme of PF2 is consolidation and simplification. For that i was brewing an idea for a PF1 alternate Mana based Casting system.
Rules
1) Spell levels = Mana Cost - Magic Missile costs 1 mana while Fireball costs 3 mana. . . and so on.
2) Spells still are locked by Spell Levels - No level 1 fireballs and such.
3) All spells available to cast can be heightened to the highest available spell level, and the Mana Cost will be adjusted as such. - Wizard casting a 3rd Level Magic Missile costs 3 mana.
Class Level | Mana
1 | 2
2 | 3
3 | 7
4 | 9
5 | 15
6 | 18
7 | 26
8 | 30
9 | 40
10 | 45
11 | 57
12 | 63
13 | 77
14 | 84
15 | 100
16 | 108
17 | 126
18 | 135
19 | 135
20 | 135
Spells Learned
Sorc learns 2 new spells every odd level and 1 new spell every even level( or you can have them learn
a new spell every level and just add a domain spell every other level ) and can always cast them so long as they have the mana.
Wizard prepares 1/2 level(rounded up) + int mod spells for daily preparation. (this one sounds pretty much like the 'Arcanist' casting people have been saying)
Play Style
For Wizard i would still keep Quick Preparation to switch out one spell at a time per 10 minute wait. This would keep the iconic feel of foresight == power and the Wizard as a utility based caster.
Sorc ends up having a larger list to cast from on average but ends up lacking on the utility side in most cases. This should be attractive for players that want to Learn and Burn.
This should on average make both casters feel rather interchangeable but leaving their niche intact; and i feel any real differences in raw power should be expressed in the feats rather than the Mana Pool.
Special
Instead of just giving Sorc more Mana and calling it a day, something like Blood Tapping (similar in theme to the current Blood Magic Feat); an example being dealing 1d6 bleed dmg to yourself and gaining back that much mana.
For the Wizard we keep not only Quick Preparation but also Arcane Focus. Arcane Focus would work along the lines of the ability to cast the same spell the Wizard cast the previous turn but for no Mana cost (at the same heightened level); with something like a 10 min cooldown.
Final Notes
I currently have no earthly idea where to place Cleric and Druid in this. Though i know i would want them to have access to more spell choices than Wiz but less than Sorc probably.
Bard i would probably place with Sorc; or for those that want a Prepared Caster Bard, Wizard.
Depending on feedback i might expand on feat choices for Wiz and Sorc.
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I really don't like manual spell heightening. It's extra bookkeeping and I'm not entirely sure what the point of it is. Just let the player make a list of prepared spells, and then they can cast those spells at whatever level they have the slots for. Much simpler, don't see it as being particularly OP as you're spending the resources regardless.
Spontaneous casters just don't get anything universally that makes them better - instead, spontaneous spellcasting is a sacrifice in order to have something else the class itself provides, or they just get more slots. 5e not doing a great job doesn't mean PF2 can't make spontaneous casters exciting. Sorcerers in particular should at least have a fantastic blasting option that maybe limits their spell selection further to just those that deal damage but then makes them a viable damage alternative to a martial, an arcane alternative to playing an archer.
Bloodlines have plenty of potential to be a larger part of a sorcerer's identity, I don't think it's necessary that they get spell heightening as an exclusive is worth complicating the magic system as a whole.
I really don't like manual spell heightening. It's extra bookkeeping and I'm not entirely sure what the point of it is. Just let the player make a list of prepared spells, and then they can cast those spells at whatever level they have the slots for. Much simpler, don't see it as being particularly OP as you're spending the resources regardless.
Spontaneous casters just don't get anything universally that makes them better - instead, spontaneous spellcasting is a sacrifice in order to have something else the class itself provides, or they just get more slots. 5e not doing a great job doesn't mean PF2 can't make spontaneous casters exciting. Sorcerers in particular should at least have a fantastic blasting option that maybe limits their spell selection further to just those that deal damage but then makes them a viable damage alternative to a martial, an arcane alternative to playing an archer.
Bloodlines have plenty of potential to be a larger part of a sorcerer's identity, I don't think it's necessary that they get spell heightening as an exclusive is worth complicating the magic system as a whole.
I agree with the general point here, but I'm not sure about including it in this homebrew "band-aid" for now because I think it would require a very large rework on how certain spells and classes work. If everyone can spontaneously heighten everything, spells that have different effects at different heightening levels will basically be multiple spells for the cost of one. Spells that can't be heightened will need to be very useful at all levels or else they'll be terrible long-term choices.
Is also think this would require a rework on the Sorcerer a lot bigger than just buffing their powers. Maybe I'll eventually do it if the game releases and the current spellcasting system remains.
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How about something like this:
A spell which is known at a given level MAY be spontaneously heightened by expending a Spell Slot in which it is known in addition to the Spell Slot it is cast from.
Change the Spont Heighten Ability to allow them to simply ignore the first, lower spell slot expenditure X times per day.
This will allow a caster to choose to use that Spell more flexibly, and also keeps a cost involved with the action for PCs who want to abuse it by simply memorizing only Variable Level Spells.
I really don't like manual spell heightening. It's extra bookkeeping and I'm not entirely sure what the point of it is. Just let the player make a list of prepared spells, and then they can cast those spells at whatever level they have the slots for. Much simpler, don't see it as being particularly OP as you're spending the resources regardless.
Spontaneous casters just don't get anything universally that makes them better - instead, spontaneous spellcasting is a sacrifice in order to have something else the class itself provides, or they just get more slots. 5e not doing a great job doesn't mean PF2 can't make spontaneous casters exciting. Sorcerers in particular should at least have a fantastic blasting option that maybe limits their spell selection further to just those that deal damage but then makes them a viable damage alternative to a martial, an arcane alternative to playing an archer.
Bloodlines have plenty of potential to be a larger part of a sorcerer's identity, I don't think it's necessary that they get spell heightening as an exclusive is worth complicating the magic system as a whole.
Thank you. This exactly my opinion. If the point is to remove the problematic Vancian casting why the keep the "manual spell heigtening" ? A caster will still be forced to guess the amount of spells and spell slots you must allocate because you have to manual heighten spells rather than allowing spontaneous heigtening (as long you have slots left).
Bards and sorcs get something else, such as more spells slot or even the dreaded mana-spellcasting style.