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It's explorer's clothing with runes, this post is going to make to compare the levels of both options...

I don't know how balanced this would be, but if the issue is the player having fun with the feat (which honestly feels like is the main problem here)

Why not just have it a reaction that forces the attacker to reroll their attack and you take the new result?

Whilst it will always be used on crits, players might will gamble with hits possibly turning into crits, which sounds awesome, especially for those of us who use software that rolls damage with the attacks, because maybe it just hits again... for more damage.

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K1 wrote:
Acrobatics with all characters as main skill.

I assume tumble is the reason for this? is it really that good?

Quandary wrote:
The real problem with Chill Touch is it's Crit Effect VS Undead requires a 2nd Save (Will).

I think straight will save might be the best idea for undead, because it's easy to justify a fail causing flatfooted.

Cyder wrote:
What if touch cantrips were only 1 action to make up the trade in being in melee range. It would still cost an action and a feat (Reach spell) to make them not close range.

You'd have to nerf their damage/etc, and I would make them Somatic (risking the AoO still)

Not to be a Necromancer here and revive a dying thread, but I just had a thought and all the "I'd rather not be that close to enemies" replies kind of inspired it.

How about adding 30ft of range to each of the attack cantrips except EA?

This would be the simplest tweak and this would also
A) Make both Ray of Frost and Daze better at what they do, battlefield control.
B) Make Chill Touch even worth bothering with.
C) Move the Casters back with the Archers

A sword and board swash, forget the parry, but grapple, disarm and trip whilst wearing handwraps.

If riposte attacks happened on a fail when welding a parry weapon, not just crit fail, I could see a point.

I'd just run it as a Short Sword and Scabbard that effectively has Glamoured on it.

Just a thought here, I think Flexible Studies (Feat 1) would make a great standard class feat, and make the number of skills be based on your INT mod, this would commonly end up being Lore skills (maybe make it only lore skills), which would really fit the class.

Here's a question, would it make Divine Lance imbalanced to allow Neutral to select the other options, Say NG could use both Lawful and Chaotic? Assuming this gives TN all options.

Thematically this fits with TN because they are opposed to all extremes.

Adding the weapon rune bonus to disarms is the only advantage I can see to using the Main Gauche, which can be done from the Rapier (tho I've altered the Rapier in my house rules)

I am not seeing much point to Parrying weapons...

Hell if you build a Fighter with Dueling Parry and wield a Buckler, you can also perform all the maneuvers that require a hand free, gain a safe +1 AC and a less safe +2

In the case of a Swashbuckler, you can just have the same AC, safely, and have access to all the maneuvers.

IMO, what makes it worth using is that it frees up your first level feat as a Ranger, and if you're a fling, consider an animal companion, and maybe one you can ride (available at level 6).

Currently one of my NPC's is a dino riding fling. (My important NPC's are built like PC's)

Sapient wrote:
How viable is it for a martial to MC into a caster and use the Shield cantrip and a 2-handed weapon? You get half the AC boost, and only one block per combat. But you don't have to fix it and it heightens for greater hardness.

I think it's more viable to use a buckler and dual handed assault.

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The Raven Black wrote:

Tradition > local law > personal preferences

I really like this explanation

I think the Tradition/Local Law thing can be swapped around, depending on the character.

And I think we can use that as a basis for the other two alignments

Neutral moves the personal preference in between the two, so a NE thief might value personal preference over Local Law, but might put certain Traditions above his personal preferences, like not welshing on a deal.

Or a NE Merchant might follow the letter of the Law, but not give a toss about Traditions.

Where a Chaotic character would put personal preference above both.

Watery Soup wrote:
The favored weapon is neither (IMO) something that can be ignored all the time, nor is it something that can never be ignored. It is at least a ceremonial weapon that every champion and cleric owns and maintains, and at most the default weapon in combat.

I agree with this, but I think the maintains part is very important.

I am houseruling a similar item (not playing PF1 myself, I wasn't familar with the belt), mostly because I wanted to create a knife throwing NPC, and the Yoyo effect of the returning rune just feels off.

Restocking Quiver/Belt/Bandoleer

Non Consumable Items (so normal arrows, but not single use arrows) removed and used to make a ranged strike with within a single turn, return to the container at the end of the turn.

This allows a certain quick draw knife thrower, who will eventually have a variety of knives, to just look cool.

But for the general player, they can survive on a handful of arrows/bolts, regularly throw a javlin, etc.

I am also giving my Iruxi tribe the knowledge of how to make wooden shields with a javelin compartment, and since many of them are rangers, quick draw is going to get some use there too.

Samurai wrote:

It's really very simple, just rearrange your order of actions. You get 3 per round.

Action 1: grip your Greatsword with your second hand.
Action 2: Attack
Free action: Release your grip with your shield hand
Action 3: Raise your Buckler

Wash, rinse, repeat next round...

You managed to find a way to make the Buckler useful... tho I'd be inclined to say that a Greatsword is always 2H, but a Bastard Sword...

"the DC cumulatively decreases by 1 on each such save."

I wonder if expanding that part would be helpful, as in each time a creature has to make a save vs incapacitation (during a 24 hour period maybe) they lower the required DC by 1 (or more)

Tender Tendrils wrote:
Sometimes the law that you respect is a personal code, and the actual literal legal system is secondary to that.

Agreed, but as a GM, I'd want that code to be strict, preferably based on something.

Gnome Fighter, Lunge, Advantageous Assault, Whip, Flickmace, Athletics Assurance....

Trip, Hit, Move.

You can choose 15ft so you hit them when they approach you, or 10ft to hit them when they stand up.

Forgot the Cantrip as an Ancestry thing, if they decide to keep their range.

mrspaghetti wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
You think it's a significant problem and other people don't.


It's a cantrip.

Why don't you want it changed then? It's just a cantrip, it shouldn't matter.

P.S Continuing with the simplistic numbers that provide a kind of mental image.

It's currently like 14 on single targets, and 28 on two targets.

I tried looking at no spell mod on two targets, doesn't dmg on save, doesn't crit, combinations of the those 3 options, and they all had issues, and then let's not get into other options I decided against, mostly because the of the complexity of implementing them.

Making EA scale like Daze is really simple, it still allows it to perform the same function, with it still being the highest damage if you hit two targets, with it being the same damage as Daze and Acid Splash. (Imagine 9 dmg hypothetically)

With the more bread and butter damage cantrips being RoF and PF being slightly higher. (now think 12)

With TP being around the same increase again. (think 15)

And EA 2 targets being the same increase again. (Think 18)

Lawful is a reliance on structure, so if someone is one second late handing in a form:

LG might find a loophole to help the person, or might talk to their boss about giving leeway, depending on how life/death the need is. Because whilst they're not going to break the rules, they'll do what they can to help the person.

LN&LE would just send them away, LE might consider a way to swing it to their advantage tho, this one doesn't need much explaining IMO.

NG would likely consider just accepting it, depending on the need, because whilst they prefer not to break the rules, sometimes they see need.

CG would just accept it, because arbitrary rules help nobody.

NE&CE would likely ask for a bribe, with CE proceeding to use the information enclosed to rip them off at a later date, because whilst the NE taking a bribe is clearly breaking the rules someone else came up with, but they are not likely to cross the person they are doing a deal with, because it's part of the rules they actively entered into.

CN&TN accepting the form would likely be based on a balance between how much extra work they'd have to do, and how much that person needs it, with the CN likely dumping as much extra work involved on someone else as possible, because TN's are pretty much always about cost benefit analysis, and CN's are not too fussed about personal responsibility.

Yup, tho mechanically, the weapon side of a shield and the shield side of the shield are two different things.

I have been tempted to change the boss into a D4 with Shove.

There are no shield runes... (Well I have created my own)

Consider that idea, then you too can spend more time than you should have, doing all the maths, making sure you didn't unleash 5E's Sharpshooter into your game.

You could do some interesting homebrewing here, and link this in with the divine ally.

So Blade Ally would up the dice as normal for using the deity's weapon.
But Shield Ally could increase the Hardness of your shield by an extra 1 if you have your god's symbol on it.
Steed Ally could maybe do more charge damage or maybe more quicker, if they have a caparison on with clear symbolism for the deity.

I think the biggest problem is the words used, Selfless vs Selfish, Rigid vs Flexible. IMO are more accurate terms.

Honestly I kind of see Paladins as militant communists.

Ediwir wrote:
I get the feeling someone here still hasn’t grasped the fact that electric arc deals more damage than the other cantrips ON SINGLE TARGET...

Yup, worked that one out myself, once it dawned on me about the half on save.

Quandary wrote:

But that doesn't invalidate appraising Electric Arc for mechanical balance and bringing it more in line if appropriate.

Whether or not 2nd Electric Arc suffered from 1st's MAP would be only unique part (and even without that, the rest is valid rebalance IMHO, both for this cantrip and as general mechanic). Although ideally that would be Errata so all rules take it into account, rather than building around it's assumed absense (which is problem with homebrewing around core mechanics)

Totally agreed with that first point.

I see your point, but it's messy "which is your first target?", and if the 2nd target didn't cop the MAP from the 1st, it's irrelevant, because they're just going to cast shield, move or use reach spell.

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Unicore, your argument feels very similar to the "balance doesn't matter, because it's PvE and the GM can just change the enemies to balance things anyway" that you hear a lot.

Which is basically just an "all attempts to homebrew solutions to wholes in the system are dumb" kind of argument.

I might be wrong, but that's the vibe I am getting.

Unicore wrote:
For the record, I am not saying other cantrips are better. I am saying there are interesting tactical reasons to pick most of the most of the cantrips and that is a good thing.

Fair point.

BTW, I would just like to point out the half damage on save that Daze gets, pretty much brings it into line with the other cantrips (If you assume a miss every other round, which basically raises the damage by 50%)

Personally I just want to make the choices more even, I want "is this the best weapon for my character" to be more character/story driven, like a draconic sorcerer, who is a bit of a gadabout, this is partially a result of their copper dragon heritage, and of course their magic tends to manifest by more often than not using acid damage.

Unicore wrote:

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to compare cantrips purely by damage output because PF2 is a far more tactically complex game then "always pick the attack which does the most damage.

If the tactical side of these cantrips was more reliable, you'd get a lot less argument from me, but then that would nerf the utility cantrips.

Now if you think the on crit effects are better options, that make the game more enjoyable, why have the pure damage ones as newbie traps?

I mean, throw "Heat Metal" on a few of your fiends (I mean, if silver screws you over that much, why wouldn't you protect yourself against it) and watch the champion just switch weapon.

I think the best way to handle it thematically, is to require them to maintain a high quality version of said weapon (so it'll be a social taboo to not put runes on the deity's weapon first), and make it customary to make sure their opponents are dead after a battle with a blow of the weapon.

That would effectively be akin to tithing to your church and saying a prayer over the dead. Only a little more violent.

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Quandary wrote:

As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: Attack trait, does nothing directly but reduces combo power. (Attack trait should also make Save DC suffer MAP) 2nd attack could then suffer penalty to DC, which doesn't impact 1st attack power at all, only reducing 'peak' damage VS 2 targets.

I can see where you are going here, but K.I.S.S, because creating a unique mechanic for it is kind of an ugly solution.

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Simple rule change.

Shield Boss, D4, Shove.

This will also add a possible gold sink for players who want to give their shove a +3

I think a simple rule is, you can fire it from the prone position no problem, but not reload it, or double the reload actions with the running reload feat. (I was thinking Crossbow Ace, but I think a Rogue sniper makes a whole lot of sense)

Saldiven wrote:
Also, the bow can be fired from a half-sit-up position with the bow parallel to the ground.

I would rule that as taking cover, not prone.

Unicore wrote:
I strongly recommend not reducing the effectiveness of electric arc. Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Exactly my reasoning for nerf batting the two target option the most (removing the spell mod), and removing the half dmg just pulls it back into line with everything else.

The can't crit option is IMO is a minor nerf (as you said, the rare crit) and is rather thematic, *conjures images of palpatine using force lightening* but it feels like a good balance change because you can essentially "crit at will" in the average fight by hitting two targets.

Just my random thoughts here.

I have used "Shield Wall" in a recent game, but hadn't codified my own rules for it, it was a pretty loose, +1 from the guy on your left and +1 from the guy on your right.

Spear Wall required me to make a few reads thru to understand, likely because you're using flat footed as a way to visualize a wall of fighters, I think you might change the explanation in your release.

Stabilization is automatically in my rules, basically a spear is 1 handed for martial types for me, tho I don't want to tell you how that set me down a path of basically reworking the entire weapons list and how simple and martial weapons work (for example simple can access most D8's, but they are always 2 handed for them)

I have created my own runes for shields, which is how I have done my own version of your Bulwark.

Oh agreed, but I wasn't going to nitpick because he got his message across, really I was just using the A and B for shorthand, and I didn't think I would need type it out the longest method possible for some people.

RicoTheBold wrote:

The a in y=ax+b is the *2.

I assumed, X is the x2. and A is scaling of the dice.

And if you read his solution, you can understand why I viewed it as such.

How A & B are well A & B and X is the one that stands out, his solution was talking about dealing with A and what did he deal with? The scaling, not the x2.

Ediwir wrote:

This’ll keep the curve, but shift it right. You just moved the break point forward, not actually fixed it (and not by much. It’s back to dominating levels before lv5). Approximating this to a simple y=ax+b, you removed b, but the problem is a.

I don't completely disagree, but I see the problem not as a or b, it's the x2

You suggestion takes it from a standard dmg that just gives free extra damage, it's also a rather mathy solution, and whilst it may bring the x2 damage back in line, it murders the x1 dmg.

I believe the x1 dmg could use a nerf, due to the x2 option being available, but I believe that could be handled better by removing the half dmg on save and crit dmg on crit fail. (This would also feel thematic as the arcs are less precise)

Now the simplicity of just removing a +4-6 mod to attacking a second target feels bigger to a player than what the numbers truly are, and it gives them a sense of choice.

OK, after spending too much time, doing the actual maths, here is my better suggestion... which I am going to run with.

Do not apply the spell casting modifier when you attack two targets.

This keeps it the same dmg as Chill Touch, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost on single targets.

But is not going to give it effectively an automatic crit, with the chance to crit for extra on top of that.

And it increases options, by making you choose.

OK, I have a very simple solution to Electric Arc (And yes I am in the it's OP camp)

Whilst keeping it at D4, make it scale like the D6 cantrips.
AKA Heightened +2

This puts it at the lowest damage vs 1 target, but still puts out the most damage if you hit 2 targets.

(I remember pretty much all the others being pretty much the same damage, especially if you treat acid splash as always hitting 2 extra targets, P.S I couldn't be bothered doing the acid splash max target maths, because it's a useless stat)

What this means if by choosing EA, you are trying to do the most damage, not the most tactical damage.

Here's my two cents, and it comes from when I was thinking of doing the same thing in 5E, each bloodline needs to be tied to a different stat (not Dex or Con), so in PF2, that would mean focus points. (Possibly also spell damage modifier if you wanted)

How I would work it.

Str: Demonic, Draconic
Int: Aberrant, Imperial, Undead
Wis: Angelic, Elemental
Cha: Diabolic, Fey, Hag

You'd still have con as the casting stat, but to make the most of your bloodline abilities, you'd need to dip into a third stat.

So instead of the vanilla Cha>Dex>Con, or your simple change Con>Dex, it would be Con>X/Dex>X/Dex

Just consider a high strength Demonic bite, or Draconic claw.

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How about something simple like "due to you constantly imbibing your own creations, there is always some residual mutagen floating around in your system, you can for one action and no reagent cost, activate the properties of a mutagen you already know"

Whilst it might step on the toes of "Perpetual Infusions", I think a player could tailor those choice towards their party members.

Maybe no reagent cost is a little broken, well, just an idea off the top of my head really.

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Well I don't know what others will think of this concept, but I am houseruling that the Spellguard Shield is a rune that can be applied to any shield, mostly because I like the idea of formations still being a thing in a world where fireball is a thing.

IMO, the regular crossbow is the best ranged weapon in the game.

The biggest complaint is you don't get to waste your ammo on a -10 shot.

The classes that would use a ranged martial weapon as their primary damage source have rapid reload, and they both have extra damage outside the weapons basic stats.

The money you save from dealing with a composite longbow gets you halfway to your first rune.

I think it would be an easy homebrew to have familiar's do primary stat as dmg.

Because they are effectively a piece of your soul/body (caster/alchemist) that move autonomously in most cases.

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