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Ordinary items would most likely refer to common items from the equipment section (barring armor, which is specifically excluded). Alchemical and Magical items are not ordinary, I'm fairly certain. "Cost" in pathfinder rules rarely refers to time, but almost always refers to price in coinage. Time reductions are generally spelled out as such.
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My reason for not grouping alchemical items as ordinary is that they aren't listed in the equipment section, rather in the treasure section near the magic items. That seems like a clear differentiation to me.
I suspect it's because many of the alchemical items have effects that are magical in nature. Sure tindertwigs and creature venom are pretty basic, but elixir of life is a healing potion, the mutagens are polymorph spells in a bottle, and several others also match spell effects.
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PLEASE PAIZO ANSWER MY PLEA. MAKE ALCHEMISTS GREAT, FOR ONCE!
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Also, it makes no sense that Alchemy Potions Created with Resonance Points Require an additional tax of more Resonance points to use. They have already been paid for once. Infused items should just work without resonance, period, as those items have already been paid to "use" via the maker. 3 resonance points for a key class feature makes them excessively unviable. Ordinary Items should be clearly defined as(In MY opinion) "Any item that isn't enhanced via class specifics such as those listed under the alchemist class suite of abilities", OOORRRRRRRRRRR "Items that aren't Magical in Nature IE all currently craftable items except magic items, runes, scrolls, actual potions(Those without the Alchemical Tag), or those with higher quality makes than normal or expert." The current Resonance System highly disfavors Alchemists by denying the benefit of the class granted abilities to party members by taxing them. Even at higher levels, when players have more resonance because of their level, they will be forced to choose to either take the Alchemist's Potion when they get low health or using their magic items for the day or whatever. Alchemical healing becomes a bad choice for these particular cases. Would you make a Wizard Spend Resonance to cast spells? Probably not. would you make an enemy spend a resonance when being hit by a harmful or helpful wizard spell? Probably not.
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I agree that the infused trait should remove the resonance cost. It's already been paid.
In regards to other resonance point concerns: I would agree that the alchemist feels constrained by the system, not enabled by it. I wouldn't be surprised if most alchemists only spend 1 RP per day to invest in their armor and put the rest into their advanced alchemy. There are a lot of fun and empowering magic items that unfortunately have to compete with the alchemist's base abilities. Something has to give.
In regards to Quick Alchemy, I'm not seeing a great reason to use it:
- It's less RP efficient than Advanced Alchemy (which again is a major concern considering how important magic items are), and requires an action in-combat to use. A prepared alchemist gets more bang for their buck.
- Only certain class feats require Quick Alchemy, and those feats require feat investments to become worthwhile and are only usable 1/round. Debilitating Bombs is particularly lackluster, as the initial offerings are weak compared to what other classes are capable of at that level. If a feat requires the alchemist to use Quick Alchemy, the power of the feat should be significant considering it costs (1) a feat, (2) a RP, and (3) an action to create the item. The payoff should be much larger than "Fortitude save or be hampered 5 until the start of my next turn". Dazzled is better, but the other 3 debuffs can be applied by base bombs and two of said bombs do not even require a saving throw. Greater Debilitation offers better options, but are only "-1" debuffs which again feels lackluster at 10th level when compared to 3rd/4th/5th level spells.
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I agree that the infused trait should remove the resonance cost. It's already been paid.
Thirded.
About quick alchemy: I view is as similar to wizards leaving slots unprepared - less efficient, but good for dealing with unexpected situations.
As for everything else, I wish there was a bit less of an emphasis on bombs. Alchemists are great at making poisons, but not at using them. Alchemists also seem well situated to be great single-target healers, if only they had better numbers and more delivery options.
I'm hoping it won't be long before PF2 gets a hypodermic dart-gun, personally.
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My reason for not grouping alchemical items as ordinary is that they aren't listed in the equipment section, rather in the treasure section near the magic items. That seems like a clear differentiation to me.By that logic, those items shouldn't be allowed to be bought, because they are difficult to come across. Everyone I have played with has bought them or the other Magical Variation. It doesn't break the game, don't be so close-minded, realize that a definition is needed, not a guess.
Would you want you rogue to not be able to buy or steal poisons?
Should your cleric not have access to purchasing Elixir's of Life from his church?
Interesting you should say that. They are called out in the paragraph about buying starting gear as something only an Alchemist should be able to buy at character generation. That also suggests a distinction.
There's also another reason that Alchemical items shouldn't be covered by Junk Tinker (which was the original issue): One aspect of Junk Tinker is that all items created with it are of inferior quality. Alchemical items don't seem to have any rules regarding quality (unlike the items in the Equipment section, another clear distinction). If you're running the game and you want to consider Alchemical items as ordinary for the purpose of Junk Tinker, feel free. I'm quite confident you'll be going against intent to do so, but it's your prerogative.
Also, it would be a bit bizarre for a cleric to buy Elixir of Life from their church, unless their church worships a deity of Alchemy. Most churches that sold such things would probably sell Healing Potion.
So the rules update produced yesterday does fix some alchemy stuff. Such as advanced AND quick alchemy have the common word removed from what they can make so you can make any formula you know with either. Which also means you can make two mutagens per resonance again which is nice once you get to them.
The fix they did for the formulas know I think means they only start with 4 formula now. It may just still be reading it oddly but splicing in what it says to it seems to indicate you just get the four starting formula from alchemical crafting.
In the Formula Book section, change “The
formula book contains formulas for your choice of 4 common
1st-level alchemical items.” to “The formula book contains
the formulas you gained from Alchemical Crafting.”
Before it looked like you got the 4 from alchemical crafting AND the four from the book. Now the formula book entry just points back to the four you get from alchemical crafting.
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Valid Points. I don't agree with the following statements though.-Not enough resources. (Say goodbye to all resonance use magic items).
Reasoning: There's a Feat For that.
-Stuff that works on quick Alchemy needs to also work on advanced Alchemy (no reason I can only make debilitating bombs if I make them on the spot as an example)
Reasoning: If you could just spend downtime for a month before an adventure to make infused bombs, well.... you would have a ton of bombs! So many bombs it wouldn't be fair. Especially with these Infused enhancements.
--Bomb focus, and it still doesn't make bombs great, just passable.
Reasoning: Empowered Bombs Fixes this.
-No sustainability (passive bonuses, at will abilities, something)
Reasoning: You are the sustain, if you build right. Especially if they remove the double tax on Potions.
-Craft (Alchemy) has exactly 0 uses for an alchemist.
Reasoning: This is a really helpful downtime activity that if used properly, can give your party an unexpected advantage. Imagine you have a day or two, your goblin alchemist has Junk Tinker, and the rules have been cleared up to allow it to work as intended(Speculation at this point). You could, in theory, make 2 antidotes and 2 antiplagues.
- The feat in question only works for Quick Alchemy. It's nice, but it only solves one problem. The Alchemist still needs Resonance for: Investing, Advanced Alchemy, Magic Item/Consumable Use. It's gonna be tight. And if you need it for the Alchemist to sort of work, it's just a Feat tax.
-He's not asking for downtime crafting to be infused. He's asking, why can't he use the Smoke Bomb feat, or the Debilitating Bomb feat, or the Extend Elixir feat when he uses Advanced Alchemy to make his daily stuff. Like, he spends 1 point of Resonance to make two Smoke Bomb Alchemist Fires. I figure this isn't allowed because the developers think (whether rightly or wrongly) that the effects are too powerful and they don't want the Alchemist to get them in bulk.
- Empowered Bombs doesn't really fix anything since bomb damage is pretty lackluster already due to being base dice with no addons, and Splash Damage being pitiful even with the feat that lets you add Intelligence. If Empowered Bombs affected Persistent Damage, it might be worth it. But it might also be too good. Honestly, Bombs should go back to how they were in PF1 and allow the Alchemist to add Intelligence bonus to damage. Then they'd be fine.
- I think what he means by Craft (Alchemy) being useless is that, until 20th level, stuff you craft doesn't scale in any way, shape or form. Bombs are always level 1, Poisons don't have scaling DC, Elixirs have their normal onset time, etc. And with the crafting rules, you can only brew 4 of an item each time, so why would you bother when Elixirs of Life when they're pretty bad (and they cost Resonance to the user). This goes double if the party has the McHealer Supreme, aka a Positive Energy Channel cleric.
@samuel: may wanna reformat that, you appear to have had some quote issues.
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Remember the Errata only removes the common word from Quick Alchemy, it does not do the same for Advanced Alchemy. So you still can't make Mutagens at the start of the day using Advanced Alchemy. And grabbing the level 20 feat to make Philosopher's Stones still does nothing as it has to be made with Advanced Alchemy, not Quick Alchemy, but is not common and Advanced Alchemy still can only make common items.
Samuel Caldwell not sure where you are coming from on most of those points. But with the way empower bombs works, it would totally be reasonable for Quick Alchemy to allow the Alchemist to craft bombs as an action for no Resonance to give the Alchemist at will bombs. It would be more or less comparable to spellcaster cantrips, and spellcasters would of course still vastly outstrip them.
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...The problem with that is that the majority of class feats that modify your Alchemy only work on quick Alchemy and not on Advanced. Imagine if wizard feats applied only to spells prepared on empty slots.
You're literally better at making stuff on the spot than when you spend time on them.
IMO, the short list of Alchemist issues can be summed to:
-Not enough resources. (Say goodbye to all resonance use magic items)
-Doesn't have scaling class DC from the get-go, when he gets it, it doesn't work on the few things that actually have DCs
-3 rounds onset on their mutagens (feat tax JUST to remove that that literally does nothing else)
-Your preparation brings you over normal Bulk. Alchemical items need to be - bulk and not L, and the kit needs to be 1 bulk down from 2
-Stuff that works on quick Alchemy need to also work on advanced Alchemy (no reason I can only make debilitating bombs if I make them on the spot as an example)
-Bomb focus, and it still doesn't make bombs great, just passable
-No sustainability (passive bonuses, at will abilities, something)
-Craft (Alchemy) has exactly 0 uses for an alchemist.
-Huge "stacking" issues (no reason for any mutagen to have the specific +item bonus on saves when all and every magic armor offers a generic +item to all saves). Simply put, every other buff except Alchemist is conditional...Valid Points. I don't agree with the following statements though:
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Splitting hairs for a second: 12 of 47 alch feats only affect Quick Alchemy.
It would still suck if Wizards were saddled with that many options that could only apply to open slots. However, Alchemists get an extra 50% bonus to their RP at level 9, which can only be used for Quick Alchemy. I think there's potential for additive feats to be done right.
1) Resources: See above. In addition, studied resonance guarantees Alchemists have extremely large RP pools. Past level 1, I can see myself burning through that only when I buff before every fight AND throw a ton of bombs. Agreed that the feat is worthless for alchs, though.
2) Scaling DCs: Agreed. If I make something during my daily preps, it should have the same DCs as another class's spells.
3) Onset times: Agreed. The onsets and durations for mutagens are wierd. They should have an onset time, but last for 10 minutes across the board, not the strange ratcheting up of duration vs effect. Especially since they tend to emphasize skills now and the short duration makes them worthless in exploration mode.
4) Bulk: Agreed.
5) Quick Alchemy: I agree to an extent. I think there should at least be an option to take a regular action to apply the effect to a standard potion/bomb. Allowing players to prep additives into their bombs at the beginning of the day creates a ton more things for the new players and the GM to keep track of.
(*2 hours into the game* "wait, didn't you prep 2 sets of dazzling debilitating bottled lightning and one set of smoke alch fires?" "I think the debilitating bombs were deafening and the smoke was also bottled lightning")
6) Bombs: I think the bombs scale pretty well. You automatically get extra damage dice at the earliest availability of each tier of magic weapon. By investing a handful of feats you can keep up with the attack rate of the party's archer AND have a decent amount of aoe plus a little damage even on a miss.
7) Sustainability: I'm not sure what you're getting at here...maybe that alchs are no longer martial-ish? The lack of cantrips does set them apart from other casters (and they are casters now imo), so I suppose. They don't need most of the gear that other classes do, though, so maybe sustain can be bought?
8) Craft (Alchemy): Kind of agreed. Unless I'm stocking up extra consumables, the only real use is as a day job.
9) Stacking: I never really noticed the save thing until now. Still, most mutagens emphasize skills instead of combat abilities so many of those bonuses will go through (since item skill adds are rare and expensive.) That is a huge hit to Juggernaut mutagen, though.
- Empowered Bombs doesn't really fix anything since bomb damage is pretty lackluster already due to being base dice with no addons, and Splash Damage being pitiful even with the feat that lets you add Intelligence. If Empowered Bombs affected Persistent Damage, it might be worth it. But it might also be too good. Honestly, Bombs should go back to how they were in PF1 and allow the Alchemist to add Intelligence bonus to damage. Then they'd be fine....
It does increase persistent damage, Which is one reason I like working with acid flask. its one of the harder persistent damage to remove, baring enough water. I don't think the alch fire's persistent increase is worth it with so easily removed.
You can empower only a
1st-level bomb, increasing its level and causing it to deal
more damage. This also increases any persistent damage
dealt by the bomb, but not its splash damage.
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The feat to get more Resonance Points is really not worth it for an alchemist. As other's stated, it is only 2 points. And. requires 12 Charisma.. and except for skills... charisma gives nothing for Alchemists. I mean, sure, plenty of stat points. but I would never put one into Charsima.
STR is darn well needed for all the bulk we ~have~ to have.
Dex.. well most alchemists are probably dex or finesse based.
Con.. Alch HP isnt amazing. and fort saves.
INT.. Yup. Your DCs, your RP, splash damage.. lots of things
Wis.. Will saves, Initiive, not super duper prioriity but good
Cha.. ...skills? I can't think of anything else. TYeah. even for that 2RP, which is 4 extra items.. I don't think I'd put points into Charisma.
One thing to note though even the easier to remove persistent things like alchemical fire still are effective a slow on the target or whoever is assisting them when they get rid of it. So forcing them to choose between taking damage every turn or losing an action to get rid of it is pretty solid even for just that. I think most people would like an additional debuff that costs the target one of their actions thats pretty damn strong compared to most of the debuffs.
Acid flasks are even nastier they can wind up working like major slows as people frantically try medical checks/water dousing just to get the flat check to a 15 unmodified roll. In one test I saw a boss in a fight basically wasted two full rounds worth of attacks to finally remove the effect. Very good options on boss fights.
Remember the Errata only removes the common word from Quick Alchemy, it does not do the same for Advanced Alchemy. So you still can't make Mutagens at the start of the day using Advanced Alchemy. And grabbing the level 20 feat to make Philosopher's Stones still does nothing as it has to be made with Advanced Alchemy, not Quick Alchemy, but is not common and Advanced Alchemy still can only make common items.
Page 45—For the alchemist, in the Proficiencies section of the sidebar, under Skills, change “2” to “3”. In Advanced Alchemy, in the third sentence, remove “common”.
The third sentence is "You can use this feat to create common alchemical items as long as you have their formulas in your formula book, though their power is fleeting."
7) Sustainability: I'm not sure what you're getting at here...maybe that alchs are no longer martial-ish? The lack of cantrips does set them apart from other casters (and they are casters now imo), so I suppose. They don't need most of the gear that other classes do, though, so maybe sustain can be bought?
...Wat?
How are they casters? And why don't they need gear other classes do? And even if they somehow save money, all that cash is going to be going into their own class feature to make some back ups, so what sustain is possible to be bought? Releated question, why does a class that's supposed to be able to sustain need to fork over cash for sustain items?
I'm sorry, I'm just really hung up on this one right here.
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Hey All! Wanted to say thank you to everyone who comments on these threads for their feedback and ideas. The more we discuss, the more we can help Paizo. Keep up the great work :)
A problem I notice is that the alchemist is build as a generalist class, and as such are a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. As a result, buffing part of the alchemist could lead to unintended side effects.
I think a few general changes, as well as providing 4 branches of Alchemy [which I'm going to term Alchemy Fields] that provide a focusing tool for the class similar to the Druid/Wizard/Barbarian/etc, will help the alchemist. An alchemist who starts with an Alchemy Field could then feat to improve their versatility with another alchemy discipline (again similar to other classes like the Druid). I'm interested in what you think!
General Changes
- Class DC scales with the class, and applies to all items made by the alchemist. At 13th and 17th level, the alchemist's proficiency increases to Expert and Master.
- Advanced Alchemy runs off it's own resource pool equal to the Alchemist's level + Intelligence modifier.
- Quick Alchemy runs off a Alchemy Point pool, equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. Feats that apply to Quick Alchemy increase this pool by 2.
Bombs / [Grenadier Alchemy Field]
- Grenadier's add their proficiency bonus to their bomb attack rolls. That would be trained to start (as it is currently), Expert at 13th, and Master at 17th. Touch AC is not very different from standard AC in PF2, and the Grenadier should be better at hitting with bombs than other alchemists.
- Grenadier's can create 3 bombs in a batch with Advanced Alchemy, instead of 2. Bombs are a Grenadier's bread-and-butter, and for their focus on bombs they can create additional bombs with their daily preparations. Simple Weapons are an alchemist's fall-back/at-will "cantrip" feature, they aren't as good but then again they aren't supposed to be.
- Grenadier's gain the Empowered Bomb class feature (as it is currently); additionally, starting at 1st level, Grenadier's add their Intelligence to the damage they deal to the target of a direct hit with a bomb.
- Access to the Quick Draw Feat without needing to multiclass, possibly having Quick Bomber as a prerequisite.
- More bomb options/later bomb options would be a nice.
- Clarification on "Burn It" ancestry feat. As it stands, the wording is vague and can be interpreted to provide an unintended massive damage boost. It feels weird for an ancestry feat to provide so much value to a single class, such that it feels mandatory to spec into.
- Clarification on Splash damage on whether or not it applies to the target of a bomb on a direct hit. This has been debated on the boards, and I think that the wording could be cleaned up.
Mutagen / [Mutation Specialist Alchemy Field]
- Mutation Specialists add their proficiency bonus to the item bonuses of the mutagens they create with Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy. That would be trained to start (as it is currently), Expert at 13th, and Master at 17th. Many of the mutagen's bonuses later compete with item bonuses from magic items; this change would allow a Mutagen Specialist's mutagens to stand apart from other items and maintain relevance when +5 items are available.
- Mutagen Specialists gain the ability to create mutagens starting at 1st level, and can select one Minor Mutagen formula to add to their formula book even if they do not meet the level prerequisite. They can select additional mutagen formulas at 5th level.
- The mutagens created by a Mutagen Specialist using Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy do not have an onset time.
- All mutagens should have the same onset time, and last 10 minutes, to keep it simple and clean. Again, Mutagen Specialists waive this onset time as above.
- Reassess the drawbacks of some mutagens.
Elixirs / [Apothecary Alchemy Field]
- An Apothecary's elixirs made with Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy do not require Resonance Points to use, allowing them to function as Support for their allies. Elixirs do not scale as well as potions and spells do (9th level Heal does 17d8+Mod, while True Elixir heals for 10d6), and these elixirs still cost the Apothecary's resource pool to create.
- More mid-later level elixir items. Things like an Improved Cheetah or Improved Mistform, etc.
Poisons / [Poisoner Alchemy Field]
- The change to Class DC applying to alchemy items would be a sizeable boon.
- Poisoners, starting at first level, can apply a prepared poison to a weapon or piece of ammunition as an action.
From there, adjust and add feats as needed to support a variety of playstyles. For example, taking the feat to reduce mutagen onset time for non-mutation specialists, and a feat to provide a form of Empowered Bombs for non-grenadiers.
Lastly, regarding persistent damage: Persistent damage is pretty strong atm, and I wouldn't be surprised for it to be nerfed or changed. As such, tying the alchemist's bombing abilities to persistent damage puts the class at the mercy of said system. The alchemist should be able to function with or without persistent damage to lean on.
I'm interested in what you all think! If you have ideas of your own, share! The more we talk about the alchemist class, the better it will turn out for the final product.
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7) Sustainability: I'm not sure what you're getting at here...maybe that alchs are no longer martial-ish? The lack of cantrips does set them apart from other casters (and they are casters now imo), so I suppose. They don't need most of the gear that other classes do, though, so maybe sustain can be bought?...Wat?
How are they casters? And why don't they need gear other classes do? And even if they somehow save money, all that cash is going to be going into their own class feature to make some back ups, so what sustain is possible to be bought? Releated question, why does a class that's supposed to be able to sustain need to fork over cash for sustain items?
I'm sorry, I'm just really hung up on this one right here.
I coulda phrased it better there.
I meant, there's no inherent option to be a melee powerhouse like in PF1. That was the "sustain" build for that edition. This version focuses entirely on bombs, buffs, and poisons, which is why I think they're more analogous to casters now. Ranged touch cantrips = bombs in a lot of ways, except cantrips are infinite.
Once they're out of RP alchemists are kind of out of luck, which is what I think shroudb was getting at.
Alchemists don't need magic weapons and use elixirs/mutagens for a lot of item bonusus, so they really don't need a lot of equipment to get going. Therefore I think a lot of alchemists are going to be spending more of their cash on backup gear so they aren't useless without their alchemy: buying sustain with gold.
I agree that the infused trait should remove the resonance cost. It's already been paid.
While I can understand the inclination to want this, I also have to admit it is really damaging to the only concept that personally has worked for why resonance works the way it does. (as defined by the game)
It gets hard to not lose suspension of disbelief if magic items are actually 'powering' their abilities off of the person. If that were the case, sorcerers and wizards should have to pay a resonance every time they are casting a magical spell, which especially with the sorcerer is powering their spells from their own blood.
Instead, the item has to have its own power source, and resonance is reflecting a resource that gets used up in activating/triggering the magic surge, which I see as involving the activating persons' intent.
If the Elixir of life requires resonance to kick off its magical like effect, I don't think the alchemist can provide it, unless perhaps they were the one administering it, perhaps.
Advanced alchemy makes sense to me for Planned Alchemical creation, and Quick Alchemy allows them the flexibility of being more like sorcerers with spontaneous effects. That allows the class to choose between degree's of planned/spontaneous on a day by day basis.
I do wish that permanent alchemical bombs could be produced at heightened levels and effects, via normal crafting. They would be expensive, but an option for martial or other characters so inclined who were willing to pay. Alchemists could however have an option to co of empowering an existing lower level bomb up to their own level, by application of their Quick Alchemy ability, by use of their resonance to guide the reagents to get the max effect from their interactions. (if you limit it to only bombs that are known, they might as well just make a fresh one, but if allowed to empower even mixtures they don't have in their formula book, or you could allow quick alchemy the option to quickly instead of making a new item, make two permanent alchemical items gain the infused trait, so they can be empowered)
Scaling DCs, ok, I'm willing to say infused alchemical items used by the alchemist should have their DCs scale per their class ability. If used by someone else, I'm wiling to say they could/should use traditional DC for the item, giving the alchemist a reasonable advantage.
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The Alchemist feels like an NPC class! The kind you purposfully hamstring so that your Hirelings simply cannot outshine the Heroes. But I'll admit I'm just the GM, I won't get to actually play anything I build during the playtest period.
7) Sustainability: I'm not sure what you're getting at here...maybe that alchs are no longer martial-ish? The lack of cantrips does set them apart from other casters (and they are casters now imo), so I suppose. They don't need most of the gear that other classes do, though, so maybe sustain can be bought?...Wat?
How are they casters? And why don't they need gear other classes do? And even if they somehow save money, all that cash is going to be going into their own class feature to make some back ups, so what sustain is possible to be bought? Releated question, why does a class that's supposed to be able to sustain need to fork over cash for sustain items?
I'm sorry, I'm just really hung up on this one right here.
I coulda phrased it better there.
I meant, there's no inherent option to be a melee powerhouse like in PF1. That was the "sustain" build for that edition. This version focuses entirely on bombs, buffs, and poisons, which is why I think they're more analogous to casters now. Ranged touch cantrips = bombs in a lot of ways, except cantrips are infinite.
Once they're out of RP alchemists are kind of out of luck, which is what I think shroudb was getting at.
Alchemists don't need magic weapons and use elixirs/mutagens for a lot of item bonusus, so they really don't need a lot of equipment to get going. Therefore I think a lot of alchemists are going to be spending more of their cash on backup gear so they aren't useless without their alchemy: buying sustain with gold.
We have different definitions on "Sustain".
This version focuses on Bombs, buffs, or poisons. Not And. I can't fathom trying to build an Alchemist that does more than one thing in this edition because of how everything fights for attention and in my own test builds, I have to give up everything to be good at 1 thing.
The other issue is that those buffs have price tags to them. Either RP or actual price tags because holy zen 20 GP for a Lessor? AND all the feats needed to actually be able to use those effectively? Yeah there goes your bomb build. And even then, the Monk does your job better because he's has better Proficiency at it, unless you pick up a feat for it.
So you're going to pick up a weapon until your mutagens come online. You're going to pick up weapons if you're a Bomb build due to not wanting to waste any RP. And you sure are if you're support or Poison because you have no damage as Support and Poison well you still need to hit so might as well do more damage.
Alchemist to me has the biggest uphill battle of all the classes because everything in their kit fights for attention, and they need gold everywhere. You're not going to buy into Sustain, because everything you have is going to be wasted or consume each other anyway.
We need gear jsut as much as the other classes.
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...
Nice to know that by agreeing to nearly all of your points "half of my assumptions are wrong".
I respect your opinion that RP is the crippling issue here and I may come around to it as I play more. My play experience seems to have been different from yours. My opinion is simply that there are other flaws that need attention first.
RP being used for both crafting and attunement doesn't seem too limiting to me, since elixirs and mutagens give item bonuses. I view it as a trade-off between flexibility (potions) and always-on bonuses (items).
In the two games I played (one at 1, one at 5), my alchemist had a bomb or two left by the time the cleric was out of healing and the wizard was out of spells. I can definitely see table variation happening, but please consider that there other classes with limited per-day resources. In all three of the games I've played so far the party was considering resting after the 3rd non-trivial encounter.
When I do Doomesday Dawn at 9th level I'll see if Expanded Resonance helps with RP as much as I think it will.
These are my bigger fish to fry:
- Alchemists need a 10th level feat and three Rogue multiclass feats before being able to use poisons semi-effectively. And that is still the best (and really only) poisoner build available to players.
- Alchemist healing is numerically subpar to all other forms of healing.
- Double dipping RP on potions.
- DC scaling.
- The short duration on many elixirs/mutagens makes them useless in exploration mode.
- There is very little variety in Alchemist builds. The ones I've seen in person are all bomb/weapon switch hitters.
Maybe if we discuss constructively and report future play experience, we can raise awareness for both of our perspectives.
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I built my goblin with 14 strength and used a +1 dogslicer on my off turns (at level 5). It's not as good as my bomb damage, but it seemed comparable to wizard cantrips. My mileage may have been above average, idk. \㋡/
I'll try a different build next time and see if I can find a different contingency that works. Alchemists do seem to be punished more than other classes when you don't pace yourself. It might be an issue with RP, it might be due to other gaps in the class (or in the alchemy list). I'm undecided at the moment.
I strongly agree that all alch builds have to specialize to the extreme to try and stay relevant. I also agree that bombs are the only specialization that succeeds at staying relevant.
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- Alchemists need a 10th level feat and three Rogue multiclass feats before being able to use poisons semi-effectively. And that is still the best (and really only) poisoner build available to players.
What rogue feats? Not that many lv 1 and 2 feats. and i don't think any actually apply to poison
I know some higher level ones, like POison weapon, that are nifty for it. can't take taht till lv 12 though.
That's the one. Class feats:
1st: free2nd: free
4th: rogue dedication
6th: basic trickery (required for advanced trickery) - might as well pick up trapfinding
8th: advanced trickery - poison weapon
At this point you can use your own poisons, but they will fail often since the DC will be 1-3 below your class DC
10th: powerful alchemy (required for potent poisoner)
12th: potent poisoner
Now your poisons will work with a whole 50% success rate each turn.
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I'm kind of glad that alchemist is sticking to potions. I was actually expecting Bard to be the item activation class, ever since Resonance and Bard=Occult were announced.
Resonance seems purpose-built for a future PF2 Occultist class/archetype.
Alchemist was one of my least favorite PF1 classes, but I really like the idea of the resonance system (even if the execution has some kinks) so I'm building the hell out of every idea that springs to mind which uses RP, alchemy, and staves.
That's a pretty intensive rework you've thought up and I totally missed it earlier!
While it is a little complicated in my opinion, I like the idea of having specific specializations. In fact, that gives me an idea for fixing Quick Alchemy in a way that could satisfy many of the concerns in this thread.
Here's my idea, with some of my favorite ideas from SnarkyChemist mixed in:
Alchemy: Infusions and poisons you create during daily prep use your class DC.
Quick Alchemy: Restricted to elixirs only (for now).
Bombs: Deal splash damage to the primary target, even on a success. (this will make sense in a second)
Bombardier (specialization feat):
- Splash damage dealt to the main target is equal to half your intelligence modifier.
- You may use Quick Alchemy to craft bombs. Spending RP to craft bombs is optional, but bombs created without spending RP deal one less die of damage (let's give this kind of bomb the "Unstable" keyword).
Elixir of Life: provides fast healing for a few rounds to set it apart from other healing sources. The healing totals should be roughly the same as the average for equivalent-level healing potions.
Apothecary (specialization feat):
- Your elixirs with the infusion trait do not cost RP for other people to consume.
- Your Elixirs of Life last for 2 more rounds.
Toxician (specialization feat):
- You may use Quick Alchemy to craft poisons. Spending RP to craft poisons is optional, but poisons created without spending RP only last for one round. (These are Unstable).
- All poisons and elixirs you create (even outside daily prep) use your class DC.
Poison Weapon: Available at level 4. Per rogue feat, but does not include the simple poison.
Additives: Can be applied to non-Unstable items as a free action when created by Quick Alchemy. Can be applied as a standard action to any alchemical item, even Unstable items and even items you did not create.
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If something remotely resembling these changes or the ones detailed by SnarkyChymist were implemented, I think it would be a large step in the right direction. I think both changes address the possible RP issues for bombers while making non-bomb builds more viable (including a new healer option!) I did my best to keep power roughly equivalent to the other classes, but obviously this isn't perfect.
I'm not gonna get into mutagens since this is already pretty long. I don't think it should be a level 1 field, rather I think the different specializations could have extra things they can do with a mutagen: apothecaries can give weaker and short-lived mutagens to others; poisoners can poison others with the drawbacks; and bombers can do...something. idk.
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I forgot to mention it, but with respect to the potential bulk issue, you might be able to rule that if you are carrying your alchemist tools (materials) which is two bulk, you might be able to treat any combination of items which is less than 1 bulk as being part of it. [i.e. allow them to carry 9 free infused light items if they are carrying their toolkit] This seems reasonable, since they supposedly made the items using what was in the kit.
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Well, there are plenty of homerules you can implement (we use - for Alchemical items, I mean a PINT of oil is -) since this is a playtest, it's far easier to just report and ask for an obvious flaw to be fixed now, before it becomes official.
I understand, I'm agree bulk could be a bit of an issue, and I honestly don't think its unreasonable for the rule to allow part of the alchemists toolkit to hold the weight of some (or even maybe all) of the alchemist's infused items, within its allocated bulk.
It is a tangent.. but I really wish you could get 1 more dice of sneak attack...
I dearly love "twist the knife"
i really wish I could get it on my Alchemist. My alchemist is build towards persistent damage.. I fully intend to take the "crit on flat footed = weapon spec" if it turns out that I crit semi often (I feel like that won't happen though) with my darts/shuriken.
but if i coudl twist the knife, that would be so helpful with my combat style.Though... maybe it is valid for the multiclass?
It starts as a d4.. and then later becoems a d6. maybe going down a dice means it just becomes a d4 again?
------I really feel like Alchemists should be the item using "jack of all trades" class. I wish they'd get snares via a feat and could make them with their Advanced Alchemy (alchemically treat scrap metal/leather to become snares.. and most snares actually require alchemical items! its perfect!) since my weapon ability is.. not the best. and i can't chug out bombs often. I've build mine for combat support+persistent damage.. and i sort of like it..
but if i could pick up some more rogue stuff that'd be awesome..
but a d4 bleed at lv 12 probably is pointless haha. Though at level 12 rogue is 2d6 bleed. which is quite a lot more than d4. which implies it'd be useless choice at that point.. though it works at range with a few specific weapons. which is awesome.
---It is telling though, I think. that almost every build I build of alchemist.. so many of its class feats are being sunk into fighter, and or rogue (and my friend's into wizard). Often.. i have a hard time justifying taking various alchemist' class feats over them.
..often all I seem to want from the class is the "free" alchemical items per day as excellent tools, and empower bombs.
I should go read the feats again.... see if something sparks.
Stuff like this makes me really curious if when the alchemist multiclass archtype comes out if it winds up being more useful as a secondary than primary class. So a fighter/monk could make mutagens/healing potions/elixers and just ignore bombs. So they have all their fighter/monk hitting power with some combat boosts/in combat healing/buffs. If you are not even trying to use it as your main combat power dipping into it would not be that bad RP wise I would think. Could be handy for one of those anti magic barbarians where they could make themselves a lot more self sustaining.
What I would probably do to fix the Alchemist is first and foremost have the Trained in Alchemical Items, effecting attacks rolls and saves, scale at either the same rate as Spellcaster's spellcasting, or a Fighter's favored weapon. Either way eventually getting to Legendary.
Second I would give them the ability to create bombs at will, using Quick Alchemy. I would probably just straight up give them Quick Alchemy without needing to spend Resonance. I would still require others to spend Resonance for consuming Elixirs, and to prevent at will healing probably even have the Alchemist need to spend Resonance to drink healing potion type Elixirs made with Quick Alchemy.
At will bombs might seem like a bit much for some people, especially those who keep wanting to give a Bomb pool or extra Resonance just for bombs. But the bombs are fairly comparative to Cantrips, and the Alchemist doesn't really get anything big like actual spells.
Would still have them have Advanced Alchemy for early morning preparation, for when they don't have time in combat to craft something, or when they want to hand something off to their companions. Maybe even have the bombs crafted with this scale even when handed off to their allies.
Probably would lower the bulk of Alchemical Items to - like others have suggested.
Would probably lower the onset time on Mutagens, and maybe poisons?, for the Alchemist at least with the ones created with Quick Alchemy so they are usable in combat. Though this would make the one feat kind of pointless.
If I really wanted to fix it, and put in a bit more effort, I would probably also do something like Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer where there is a first level choice that gives a little more focus on a specific "build" like Bomber, Mutagen chugger, that Sneak Attack build from 1e, etc.
@Ryuujin-sama
I was trying to think through the concept of what an alchemist's 'cantrip' should/could be. Actually, the idea of allowing alchemists to produce bombs without resonance cost isn't bad. They can be relatively damaging, but they have splash damage that could be an issue is some cases, although it isn't a lot.
To separate them from their infused bombs however, there could be a rule that other than basic heightening, the alchemist can't use feats to change the behaviors of those bombs. One could require an extra action to produce a no-resonance bomb.
For flavor, the idea of alchemical healing imparting a fast healing for so many rounds is kind of appealing.
Splash damage is negligible, I can't think of any off hand that do more than 1 Splash damage, and it doesn't scale with Empowered Bombs. Short of the feat to add Int mod to the Splash damage, or a Goblin with the one feat and throwing Alchemist's Fire. But that feat needs some clarification on what it adds to.
I honestly don't think making the bombs, as they are now with the extra abilities one could add with feats, and such, would be overpowered if at will.
Though there is one thing I am not sure of, maybe someone can figure it out. If you do manage to throw 2, or more, bombs in a round does each bomb after the first have a penalty like with weapon attacks?