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I've been a long time lurker on these boards, and spent mindless hours on this during my downtime from my first deployment way back when. But perusing it recently it just... kind of depressing, honestly. So I decided I was going to put a thread saying that I'm a pretty big fan of this new system, as I feel the people who dislike it are much much more vocal.
That isn't to say there aren't people who are offering legitimate criticisms without being over the top vitriolic. But just as a whole, I like how the system seems to highly encourage other actions that just - I get into range and full round, and then continue to stand there whacking each other with sticks until one of us falls down.
There are kinks to work out, but I can have fun playing the game and, as designated DM, there's going to be some learning pains. I expected that. Now it's just down to playing the friggin game to learn the ins and outs of this one too.
I'm with you. There are a few things I'm not so happy with, but on the whole it looks a good system, and I'm looking forward to finding out how it works in practice.
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You really can add role-playing to any game... I used to talk in a cowboy accent for the game "bang" Silly? yes!
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Their are things here and their that need to be sorted and improved but that's what the play test is for. The things I'm noticing is that some people don't like some of the basic premises because they can't imagine it in a way that will work. Their is probably not a way to make them happy. That is life however.
I agree. Won't be able to actually play until the end of August, but with every day I spend going through the book, the more positive I become.
Sure, there are spells that definitely need some work, but nearly one third of each spell list is actually pretty good.
Same goes for class feats. First impression was "few of those seem impressive" but now I find myself struggling to fit everything I want into the limited number of feats you get. There are also some quite bad feats, of course, but that's always to be expected an we have almost a year to go before PF2 is released.
I just wanted to add, that my personal first impression was at least weird to bad. However after seeing more details I like it more from day to day.
There are some real balancing issues and some choices (e.g. core Goblin and Alchemist) that I just don't like personally.
I am the DM of our group most of the time and we didn't make it to play a session yet however I ran 3 characters through the first dungeon sloppily on my own and they all survived in the first go.
I also ran a couple of other encounters from the bestiary against my lvl 1 party with some astonishing results.
So now I am positive and with Jason and the team being back to the forums after gen con already reacting to some feedback I am quite positive that the balancing issues can be dealt with if there is enough quality feedback.
I just wanted to add, that my personal first impression was at least weird to bad. However after seeing more details I like it more from day to day.
There are some real balancing issues and some choices (e.g. core Goblin and Alchemist) that I just don't like personally.
I am the DM of our group most of the time and we didn't make it to play a session yet however I ran 3 characters through the first dungeon sloppily on my own and they all survived in the first go.
I also ran a couple of other encounters from the bestiary against my lvl 1 party with some astonishing results.
So now I am positive and with Jason and the team being back to the forums after gen con already reacting to some feedback I am quite positive that the balancing issues can be dealt with if there is enough quality feedback.
I ran my buddy through the first dungeon he was a human barbarian, and I ran a dwarven fighter (Och, I dinnae have any other friends in tha same timezone). I was very happy with how... lethal it was without healing. I had to DM in a flying cat with cleric healing surges. It made me happy.
Yeah I had a human cleric with natural ambition to give him healing hands on lvl 1 so he patched up the dwarfen fighter quite a lot.
Without the cleric it would have been hard. Having weapon surge and Magical weapon buffed the damage of the party and the sorceror rolled good on his damage so they made it in a single go without rest.
But I also feel that is one of the more powerful tandems you can have on early levels. The dwarf with 23 hitpoints and a shield can take quite some hits and is easily patched up again.
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That's also true. A lot of people act like Paizo came and said "Hey, is it cool if we ship this next week?" and they are going "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"Overall, I like the new version.
Does it need some adjusting to get things balanced correctly?
Oh my yes. That doesn't mean it is BAD, it just means that the open beta version we are reading needs some work and input from us.
to be sliiiightly fair, historically paizo does tend to take little input and shove out the full release with a general "deal with it (and buy the next one to fix this)".
as an example to avoid being simply dismissed as hyperbole: kineticist (in occult adventures playtest) was almost literally met with the "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?" you describe in response to their Burn mechanic, and the end result was "here you go, you still want to actively avoid interacting with their core class feature, many of their abilities are still pretty garbage for the costs you deal with, and it still shares many of the initial version's greatest flaws (like actively try to kill you if you're not using powers that are specifically made free), enjoy~" after a shockingly short timeframe.
I also agree that many of the more extreme reactions are also overreacting, but I can see why they might get to their reaction.
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I've been reading the PDF since last week. I finally got the book on Saturday and started really digging into it. I haven't tried making a character just yet but I am really impressed by the system as a whole. I'm going to make a few characters this weekend to see how all the parts fit together. I'm not expecting to be able to accomplish everything that I want with a playtest document. I also understand that the playtest is for working out the kinks in the base system and wasn't meant to be a full-fledged game with print ready layout.
This is really nothing new though. It went mostly the same when the original playtest for 1E came out 10 years ago. There was a lot of "rabble! rabble! rabble!" early on then as well. The best you can do is flag the worst of them and ignore the rest.
SM
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I actually really like the progression for one's ancestry, I like the division of actions where Move/Standard are considered the same and as such a Fighter can swing twice right at 1st level if needed, or take actions to attack, move, attack with a penalty. I like how weapons have removed crit ranges and instead have flavorful mechanics that feed into the type of weapon it is (LOVE The Falchion in its new form).
I also like how each Verbal, Somatic, Material, etc each have their own actions, and how some feats add an extra action to make a spell more potent. Cleric Can Channel Heal, but with Healing Hands can take a full action to really do some epic healing? Yes please!
I really like the direction the game is going certainly, and despite people not liking Goblins I have had goblins in my game for some time. Back when Eberron made it to where Goblins had empires, acted intelligently, and gave reason for people to think twice on them it gave way to players wanting to tap into that. That and Goblins have been ingrained into the game for some time. Really enjoyed the inclusion!
With regards to the negativity, it is a sad part of the internet. Those who have bad things to say often times say it more than those who don't, and often times will do so with all caps or in as many places as they can to get attention to validate their negative views. There are constructive posts though and I'm really liking what I see as the dust settles from the initial release.
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That's also true. A lot of people act like Paizo came and said "Hey, is it cool if we ship this next week?" and they are going "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"Overall, I like the new version.
Does it need some adjusting to get things balanced correctly?
Oh my yes. That doesn't mean it is BAD, it just means that the open beta version we are reading needs some work and input from us.
to be sliiiightly fair, historically paizo does tend to take little input and shove out the full release with a general "deal with it (and buy the next one to fix this)".
as an example to avoid being simply dismissed as hyperbole: kineticist (in occult adventures playtest) was almost literally met with the "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?" you describe in response to their Burn mechanic, and the end result was "here you go, you still want to actively avoid interacting with their core class feature, many of their abilities are still pretty garbage for the costs you deal with, and it still shares many of the initial version's greatest flaws (like actively try to kill you if you're not using powers that are specifically made free), enjoy~" after a shockingly short timeframe.
I also agree that many of the more extreme reactions are also overreacting, but I can see why they might get to their reaction.
See I remember mixed reviews on it. Are you sure its not just a small subset that hated it? Just because someone doesn't pop up and say I loved it doesn't mean no one did.
See I remember mixed reviews on it. Are you sure its not just a small subset that hated it? Just because someone doesn't pop up and say I loved it doesn't mean no one did.That's also true. A lot of people act like Paizo came and said "Hey, is it cool if we ship this next week?" and they are going "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"Overall, I like the new version.
Does it need some adjusting to get things balanced correctly?
Oh my yes. That doesn't mean it is BAD, it just means that the open beta version we are reading needs some work and input from us.
to be sliiiightly fair, historically paizo does tend to take little input and shove out the full release with a general "deal with it (and buy the next one to fix this)".
as an example to avoid being simply dismissed as hyperbole: kineticist (in occult adventures playtest) was almost literally met with the "OH GOD NO, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?" you describe in response to their Burn mechanic, and the end result was "here you go, you still want to actively avoid interacting with their core class feature, many of their abilities are still pretty garbage for the costs you deal with, and it still shares many of the initial version's greatest flaws (like actively try to kill you if you're not using powers that are specifically made free), enjoy~" after a shockingly short timeframe.
I also agree that many of the more extreme reactions are also overreacting, but I can see why they might get to their reaction.
I'm going off my personal experience from being here on the forums and in practice during the playtest (even still have my old pdf, and without the added overflow bonuses and the burn reduction charging mechanic of the final version, kineticist was a pretty raw deal for players), though I'll grant you that many of those who were content or enjoying it may simply not have posted to that effect around that time.
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You really can add role-playing to any game... I used to talk in a cowboy accent for the game "bang" Silly? yes!
Yeah, we even add roleplay and accents when we play cards in Coup.
"I'm the Duke, and yes yes, it's my rightful duty to take three coins here.."
I had a friend help me re-calibrate my expectations on PF2e as another game on the shelf that we'd pull to play (alongside Coup, Descent, Talisman, etc) as opposed to 'this is the subsystem for our long-running campaign world'.
Immediately, the mechanics feel pretty good.
As gamers, we're not as picky about things like skill systems, 'plus-level-to-all-rolls', or '10th-level wizard fisticuffs with 10 1st-level fighters' for boxed games as we are with the system that's the foundation of our game world(s).
Think of PF2e as competing against Gloomhaven and using monthly installments of scenarios or adventures to take pole position in that market rather than going head-to-head against 5e (or 3.5e) to be the system for your home/sandbox campaign.
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You really can add role-playing to any game... I used to talk in a cowboy accent for the game "bang" Silly? yes!Yeah, we even add roleplay and accents when we play cards in Coup.
"I'm the Duke, and yes yes, it's my rightful duty to take three coins here.."
I had a friend help me re-calibrate my expectations on PF2e as another game on the shelf that we'd pull to play (alongside Coup, Descent, Talisman, etc) as opposed to 'this is the subsystem for our long-running campaign world'.
Immediately, the mechanics feel pretty good.
As gamers, we're not as picky about things like skill systems, 'plus-level-to-all-rolls', or '10th-level wizard fisticuffs with 10 1st-level fighters' for boxed games as we are with the system that's the foundation of our game world(s).
Think of PF2e as competing against Gloomhaven and using monthly installments of scenarios or adventures to take pole position in that market rather than going head-to-head against 5e (or 3.5e) to be the system for your home/sandbox campaign.
isn't that basically the same thing that 4e did, try to break into the tactical miniatures combat boardgame market?
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isn't that basically the same thing that 4e did, try to break into the tactical miniatures combat boardgame market?
It's not a bad gamble to make. When I look at FLGS calendars each week, there's more folks playing the 'semi-TTRPG' board games like Conan, Descent, Gloomhaven than playing PFS scenarios each week now.
As opposed to trying to bash their head against 5e and their subsequent success measured by gamers who are like 'nah, Pathfinder's bad... see 5e AL had 12 tables last night and PFS only had 2', the barometer is set to, 'wow, Pathfinder's kicking butt they had 4 tables playing through the latest scenario and the Conan group disappeared...'
Now when I flip through the Playtest, I can imagine in my mind's eye the 'Spell Points' spot on my character card filled with a '3 counter' and two '1 counters' alongside the 'Resonance Points' spot with four '1 counters' and a Wayne Reynolds' picture of Seoni on the left...
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Really enjoy it, there are some issues I have with it, but I am gonna playtest and give feedback.
Big three issues so far in my group, and something we will be looking at heavily during testing is:
1) Alchemist feels weird, as far as I can tell it's the only class that is limited anymore. Casters have cantrips, but Alchemist can truly run out of being an Alchemist for the day.
2) Resonance is scary and new, and we disagree with some stuff (Repeating costs for temp items for example).
3) In a contrast to most boards I am seeing about the subject, my good friend is mad that he can't truly specialize anymore. He is worried that most characters will feel too "Samey."
I am excited to playtest and see if we are off base or not.