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A creature that's made of the cesspool it's hiding in, that waits for a party to clump up and then hoses them all with an acidic breath weapon sounds great! And with 40 hit points it seems like it should stick around long enough to be scary. Right?
Well its armor class is 5. That means when folks spot it hiding (even against a background of stuff identical to what its made up it only gets a +5 to hide) they can take all three actions to make ranged attacks and cut it apart in a single round (that's 12 attacks more or less assured to succeed).
Plus it's mindless. It has no interest in hide and seek. When it sees food it abandons any pretense of hiding to go eat, which dramatically just kills this idea of it being a creepy ambush predator. It also doesn't have the tactical sense to bypass a frontline fighter to use its breath attack on a vulnerable mass of other adventurers--it just eats the meal in front of it.
I'm not sure if there's a way to make it work. Maybe if there were more of them in the encounter that people had to juggle? Maybe if it was a different kind of creature, more like the sewer blight it was based off of, that are formless but intelligent?
It was just kind of a dud of a fight.
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The centipedes were frighteningly effective. Our alchemist lightly toasted them as they came boiling out of the passage, missing with the alchemist's fire but catching a lot of them with splash damage. Two characters got bitten and nearly died from the poison. The alchemist was able to mitigate the worst of it with an impromtu elixir of life, but our bard--ended up with 3 hit points off of just one attack. They ended up crawling all over people and being terrifying.
I love centipedes.
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I was chatting with a friend who ran the first couple of rooms last night, and the ooze was almost a TPK due to some poor dice rolls, so obviously mileage varies. I'm looking forward to running the adventure myself.
The ooze is supposed to be a bust, or "trivial" as it states right on top.
From what I can tell, it's only there to try the new game mechanics w/ an easy encounter that rewards attacking multiple times.
Any group that nearly gets TPK'd needs to seriously rethink their builds or balance.
4 characters w/ +4 to hit and 1d6+3 damage (very mediocre) should kill it in a round or two.
I can't imagine a warrior w/ 18+ h.p. dropping, much less several others too.
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I thought the centipede fight was really boring. (and dangerous).
But all the centipedes, without anything else to do, were taking 3 attack actions each. Almost one of these would hit, so then roll the fortitude check, then roll the poison damage... over and over again.
My opinion coming out of this battle was... wow, that was just a TON of dice rolling. Way too much. It got monotonous really really fast. Level 1 encounters in PF1 would never require this much math and rolls.
I thought the centipede fight was really boring. (and dangerous).
But all the centipedes, without anything else to do, were taking 3 attack actions each. Almost one of these would hit, so then roll the fortitude check, then roll the poison damage... over and over again.
Totally earnest question here: Were the characters completely stationary despite this?
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I've run (and been run) through the first book, and we had wildly different experiences with the ooze.
First time through was with 3 players (cleric, rogue, and alchemist) and mostly it was a cakewalk but it managed to get a crit on the rogue and almost down him.
The second time (wizard, fighter, cleric, and paladin) it was annoying but we took care of it very easily. The only annoyance was the AoE, we had 3 of the players fail (bad luck), so the fighter did the heavy lifting on that one.
The centipedes have sucked both times, and it's mostly the poison. That fight has downed someone (though not killed anyone) every time, even with removing one of the centipedes for the small group it was difficult.
The sewer ooze is suppose to be a bust, The difficulty of this encounter is even listed as "Trivial 1", i.e. it's a trivial encounter for a level 1 party.
The sewer ooze is suppose to be a bust, The difficulty of this encounter is even listed as "Trivial 1", i.e. it's a trivial encounter for a level 1 party.
True. I guess with how low XP the encounter wss, the expectation was for it to fizzle? But as an introduction to the new edition it felt like a letdown. But yeah, you're probably right that it was likely designed to turn out just like it did for us.
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The ooze was odd in our playthrough. It dropped the monk right off the bat, but the cleric was able to get him back up and we destroyed the ooze with little other damage. So it might be a bit of a glass cannon. I think it got a lucky crit to take down the monk though. Lucky rolls were pretty important in the whole adventure. But that is first level for you, crits can be deadly.
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The Ooze went right as I expected it to looking at its stats.
The PCs beat it on Initiative, so the TWF Ranger moved in and Double Sliced, doing one crit and one normal hit, while the ranged cleric plinked it with his crossbow. It was still up. Its first action was the area effect (which hit the whole party, most failing their save) and it then attacked the Ranger twice, hitting once and doing pretty hefty damage. Then the rest of the PCs killed it (it was not healthy at that point, and both the the Barbarian and Rogue still had to go).
Net result: About one full round of combat, and the use of two Channel Energy uses by the Cleric afterwards, one area use to heal everyone, then one targeted use on the Ranger. If more people had made the save, it only would've been one use of Channel Energy.
That's all about right for similar encounters in previous editions, or indeed in this one (based on the other fights). It wound up being the, most resource intensive fight other than Drakus, but only because the PCs rolled poorly on that Save.
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The Ooze went right as I expected it to looking at its stats.
The PCs beat it on Initiative, so the TWF Ranger moved in and Double Sliced, doing one crit and one normal hit
Very relevant for the Sewer Ooze fight that a lot of people miss: It is immune to critical hits.
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How the ooze encounter played out for my group:
"<game intro, light RP...> There's a big blob of slime. Roll initiative! It's using stealth, the rest of you will use perception as you're all walking in the open."
"<everyone talking, excited for 2E, Ooze wins initiative. Okay, the Ooze uses this ability <pastes into Roll20>, everyone give me a save, <3 successes, one critical fail on the nearest PC.> Ouch, well, as you're nearest it moves over and <nat 20, high damage roll>, x damage?"
Player 1: "Yeah I'm unconscious."
Player 2: "Bad start. I cast Daze on it to try and control it so it doesn't get a second PC down."
"Haha no. It's immune to any fun effects you have. It is a bag of HP you must hit with attacks."
<a couple attacks, ooze taking damage, PC gets a 19>
Player 3: "Woo! 19. With how low we've seen this things AC be, that's a crit in the new system right?"
"Haha no. You don't get to have fun with the new crit system. It ignores those. It is a bag of HP you must hit with attacks."
As our weapon-user didn't have huge flat damage (dex ranger), the fight took until the ooze had 3 rounds, I believe, almost taking down 2 PCs.
Players response to the fight. "This was perhaps the worst introduction to second edition I could imagine. We got to use no fun abilities and not even interact with the new systems much, and its attack bonus was higher than ours to the point it was critting a lot of us fairly easily. It even had more HP than a player possibly could at this level."
Everyone was annoyed, no one had fun.
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Very relevant for the Sewer Ooze fight that a lot of people miss: It is immune to critical hits.The Ooze went right as I expected it to looking at its stats.
The PCs beat it on Initiative, so the TWF Ranger moved in and Double Sliced, doing one crit and one normal hit
You're right. Huh, I wonder how I missed that? Still, it wouldn't have mattered in this particular case. Several people (including the Ranger a second time, with two more attacks that only missed on a 1) would've gotten to go before it went again.
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How the ooze encounter played out for my group:
"<game intro, light RP...> There's a big blob of slime. Roll initiative! It's using stealth, the rest of you will use perception as you're all walking in the open."
"<everyone talking, excited for 2E, Ooze wins initiative. Okay, the Ooze uses this ability <pastes into Roll20>, everyone give me a save, <3 successes, one critical fail on the nearest PC.> Ouch, well, as you're nearest it moves over and <nat 20, high damage roll>, x damage?"
Player 1: "Yeah I'm unconscious."
Player 2: "Bad start. I cast Daze on it to try and control it so it doesn't get a second PC down."
"Haha no. It's immune to any fun effects you have. It is a bag of HP you must hit with attacks."
<a couple attacks, ooze taking damage, PC gets a 19>
Player 3: "Woo! 19. With how low we've seen this things AC be, that's a crit in the new system right?"
"Haha no. You don't get to have fun with the new crit system. It ignores those. It is a bag of HP you must hit with attacks."
As our weapon-user didn't have huge flat damage (dex ranger), the fight took until the ooze had 3 rounds, I believe, almost taking down 2 PCs.
Players response to the fight. "This was perhaps the worst introduction to second edition I could imagine. We got to use no fun abilities and not even interact with the new systems much, and its attack bonus was higher than ours to the point it was critting a lot of us fairly easily. It even had more HP than a player possibly could at this level."
Everyone was annoyed, no one had fun.
My own game went similar in feel. With a few changes;
-Barbarian - Raged, did very good damage. Ate an unlucky oh so unlucky Crit.(It only crit because of the -1 AC on Rage).-Alchemist - Persistent damage seemed fun to him. First Enemy immune to Acid. Good times.
-Rogue - Ate the Filth wave(Well they all did but only Rogue failed the Reflex. The man is cursed with bad Saves no matter the game so..). Didn't enjoy not being able to move around though was okay with getting rid of it in basically a turn.
-Cleric - ...actually made it out okay. Stayed mid range, tossed a heal and harm. They did okay.
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Should be a trivial encounter, but one time I ran the fight it KOed an animal companion with a crit.
Yep, that's what happened with us too. Animal companion OK'd to crit, 1 person prone and a second hampered before the party got to act. After that first round it was a simple beat down...
It really drove home that trivial encounters can remove a combatant from the fight trivially. :(
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But all the centipedes, without anything else to do, were taking 3 attack actions each. Almost one of these would hit, so then roll the fortitude check, then roll the poison damage... over and over again.
My opinion coming out of this battle was... wow, that was just a TON of dice rolling. Way too much. It got monotonous really really fast. Level 1 encounters in PF1 would never require this much math and rolls.
I had the same experience. Three actions meant that if the monster survived round one (or if the PCs won initiative and closed distance), I'd roll a lot of attacks that would have a low chance to hit.
...
I dunno. Maybe a better design would be, "When an attack hits, later attacks get -5," or give monsters 'Open' and 'Press' style attacks. Or some more 2-action attacks.
The centipede lunges, and then it scurries across you making it hard to hit back without hitting yourself. Something like that?
As is, the three-action economy leads to a lot of monotony.
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I'm not sure if there's a way to make it work.
All creatures right now are glass cannons, good offense, no defense. If they get initiative, they do damage, if they don't they die and do nothing.
Believe me, Sewer Ooze works. It beat everyone in my group in initiative, moved, hit a PC, and then blasted everyone. Everyone was injured and our barbarian was at 3 hp. Did the most damage with the exception of Drakus.
Sure, if he lost initiative he wouldn't have done anything. Glass cannons.
The centipedes were frighteningly effective.
And in my playtest, the centipedes did nothing because we won initiative.
The problem is the creatures are glass cannons. Too much attack and not enough hp.
For me it actually taught me how to interact between Perception vs Stealth.
Players enter the room. Perception rolls for the Searchers.
"There is something in the Sewer."Someone Closes on the Sewer, Initiative time.
Players that were faster than the Ooze could take Seek Actions to find the Ooze in the Sewer Grate and Point Out for the others. Some attacks with some misses due to Flat Checks.
I don't understand this Perception vs Stealth interaction. The moment the players search the room they roll for initiative as the ooze will attack once a PC will be within 10 foot from it. That being said the ooze can pass for a pool of mud when it's inactive, but it is visible when it manifests, it does not require any seek actions or flat checks, unless there's no light.
I ran an encounter with the following party:
* Human Paladin, Sword and Board using a Heavy Wooden Shield and a Morningstar. Basically Seelah build-wise.
* Elf Rogue, used a Shortsword. Had good INT and Arcane Sense plus Trap Finder for scouting, and a 35' move speed.
* Human Alchemist, plans on using Bombs and buff Elixirs for support.
* Dwarf Cleric of Sarenrae, Healing and Fire domains plus Bless for support.
On Turn 1 the Cleric, unaware of its low AC, cast Bless. The Paladin then got up in its... uh, slime?... and used Raise Shield. Good move, because on its turn the ooze hit everyone for 4 and then got a lucky Crit on the Paladin (Nat 20), dealing 15 more damage. Shield Block negated 3, and next turn the Paladin and Cleric healed the crit damage. After that it missed a whole turn of attacks and the party won on about 2 rounds. The Rogue and Paladin did about 3/4 of the damage with the Alchemist doing 1/4.
That crit was very nasty, but the fight was otherwise manageable (if a little on the dull side).
I ran an encounter with the following party:
* Human Paladin, Sword and Board using a Heavy Wooden Shield and a Morningstar. Basically Seelah build-wise.
* Elf Rogue, used a Shortsword. Had good INT and Arcane Sense plus Trap Finder for scouting, and a 35' move speed.
* Human Alchemist, plans on using Bombs and buff Elixirs for support.
* Dwarf Cleric of Sarenrae, Healing and Fire domains plus Bless for support.On Turn 1 the Cleric, unaware of its low AC, cast Bless. The Paladin then got up in its... uh, slime?... and used Raise Shield. Good move, because on its turn the ooze hit everyone for 4 and then got a lucky Crit on the Paladin (Nat 20), dealing 15 more damage. Shield Block negated 3, and next turn the Paladin and Cleric healed the crit damage. After that it missed a whole turn of attacks and the party won on about 2 rounds. The Rogue and Paladin did about 3/4 of the damage with the Alchemist doing 1/4.
That crit was very nasty, but the fight was otherwise manageable (if a little on the dull side).
Wow, a broken shield on the first round of the day. that bites
My group had a Gnomish Flickmace and Shield Fighter, an arcane Sorcerer, a Cleric and a dart throwing rogue.
The ooze went first, dowsing everyone for minimal damage, moving (eating an AoO) and missing with its last action.
Then the Cleric shot it with her bow, the fighter smacked it around, the sorcerer whacked it with their mace, and the rogue poked it with a dagger and it went down.
Surprisingly, being grouped up helped because the ooze moved up to them, so everyone could full attack its low AC.
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I fought the ooze, with a bat swarm, in Rose Street Revenge. Having tasted the droppings on the floor, to verify it was guano, we prepared for a bat swarm. We fought both, simultaneously. As we had split the party, in the room. The bat swarm quickly moved in on several PCs, so our initial attacks were focused on that creature. My fighter, and a rogue Delayed long enough to act after the ooze appeared. Between a failed saving throw, and taking the brunt of it's attacks, I was dropped to 4. Creatures were defeated in the second round. Used my 2 resonance points to heal, and fought the final fight with -7 HP to start. My table enjoyed the experience.
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The players at my table were smiling during the ooze encounter, and seemed to have fun getting all mucked up and Hampered by the area of effect attack.
We had mostly light damage and one player ate a crit from the ooze for pretty high damage - would have KOed the sorcerer, but it was a Dwarf Fighter who got crit, so she took it like a champ.
The cleric was able to use Shield Block to great effect.
Functionally in the playtest: my players had done very minimal reading of the rules. This was a straight forward encounter that allowed them to dip their toes into the new action system, learn about multiple attack penalties, and learn that "oh hey, not everything has attacks of opportunity, we can move around more freely in this edition."
I think it was a success at my table.
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The shield would be dented, not broken, one dent....Shield Block negated 3, and ...Wow, a broken shield on the first round of the day. that bites
Thus very thing is a point of confusion at the moment and people disagree on how it should be read - either the shield takes only it's Hardness in damage when used to block and therefore takes 1 Dent or the shield counts as taking the full damage of the attack while only reducing what you take by its Hardness and takes 2 Dents, being broken. I prefer the first interpretation, so that's what I ran with.
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I agree, using a shield block shouldn't let the enemy do bonus damage. I think it makes the most sense to simplify it as follows:
"Your shield block reaction reduces the damage you take by the shield's hardness. If you still take damage from the attack, your shield gains 1 dent."
Easy to understand, unambiguous in intent, and how I thought it worked in the first place. I also think that shields should probably all get a blanket increase of the number of dents they can take before breaking. Even just one more would be fantastic.
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"Your shield block reaction reduces the damage you take by the shield's hardness. If you still take damage from the attack, your shield gains 1 dent."
Easy to understand, unambiguous in intent, and how I thought it worked in the first place. I also think that shields should probably all get a blanket increase of the number of dents they can take before breaking. Even just one more would be fantastic.
Yes to that.
In our game the ooze got the drop on our Paladino's because everybody blew the perception roll. Almost killed her. But, once everyone was aware of it, it was dead in three rounds.
The centipedes were a bit tougher, but our alchemist bombed them quite effectively with a critical hit and they, too were downed quickly.