Transplanted to it's proper place from the DM questions about Whispering Cair thread...
Warning …This is a Rant, but I think there are some good questions in her as well.
I love that D&D 3.5 is a mini's game. I really like using miniatures in my games. For PCs I tend to use the huge variety of Reaper Minis, primarily because they are top quality, fairly low cost, and easy to customize to fit any PC that has entered my game so far. This includes a halfling that wields two flails.
I like many of the D&D miniature (DDM) creatures, especially the clasic D&D monsters that are unavailable from other sources.
The random packaging frigg'n kills me.
ASEO, I had the chance to talk to at legnth to the head of DDM, and I hate to say this, but the cost you would pay would be equal or greater than the cost of a quality Reaper minature. You see, the end cost doesn't end coming straight from the production cost, it comes mostly from the packaging.
For DDM to be available as singles, like most other miniatures, Wizards would have to pay large amounts of money to come up with the numerous packaging designs... the cost/benefit analysis shows that to make the mini, paint it, (remember, hand painted, mostly) pack it, and ship it, the cost that the consumer pays is greater than the cost of an unpainted mini, by a fairly large margin... we're talking dollars, not cents.
Squid
Damn! Oh well, I guess I'll stick with Reaper minis except where I find the DDM singles for a reasonable price for the size, not for the "rarity" of the mini. Too bad other companies can’t make minis of some of the D&D monsters. Reaper has tried a work around. They have their four tentacaled four legged "Phase Cat" instead of a Displacer Beast and Vulture Demon instead of Vrock. Things like Orcs, Goblins, zombies, skeletons, Dragons and PCs are easy to get from a variety of companies. It is the Abbolith, Xorn, Carrion Crawler, Grey Render, and Slaads that are common in D&D adventures that I can't find figures for, or have to pay exorbitant prices for "because they are Rare" and some lucky shmo ended up with 6 of them.
Most of the DDM figures are poorly painted anyway, though they seem to be getting better, and the larger ones tend to be pretty well done. Still, I usually end up re-painting the ones I get. Maybe they could sell them unpainted for those who want to paint them themselves. This could cut cost, but the Randomness would still be a problem.
Another thought would be to sell DM packs (all monsters) and player packs (all PC). Now you’ll get the issue of “where would we put a Drow?”. I’d say monster. “Half Dragon” Monster. “Half Orc” PC.
I just get frustrated with the concept that I’d like to use D&D miniatures to enhance my D&D game, but can’t reliably get the creatures I would like with out either buying random boxes until I get the right ones. Which has three negatives: 1) all the extra unwanted miniatures that Sure I could sell on ebay if I wanted to take the time (which I don’t). 2) I may buy 100 boxes of random miniatures and never get that frigg’n Beholder. 3) I may end up spending $50 to finally end up getting the Beholder or, maybe not ever get one.
I have to applaud my local game store. They open like 10 boxes of minis from each set that is released, and sell the mini’s by size. First come first serve. I have picked up several minis in this manner and am very pleased. I did have to laugh though, In the last 10 boxes they ended up with 14 Killer frogs, 9 of which have sold so far. Hell, I bought 2, but I sure as hell don’t need 14 of the things.
I would think that if the DDM were sold in just the individual plastic bags then the packaging cost would go down. Sure the crappy minis (like that Bullywog Thug) wouldn’t sell well. (so quit making them).
It all reminds me of a story. A guy owns a grocery store. He gets a shipments of Figs in. One of the bags of figs is all rotten. He then takes one good fig out of every bag, and adds one rotten fig to each bag, butting the removed good figs in a bag with the last of the rotten figs. Then he sells all the figs. When a person gets a rotten fig in their bag, they figure that “hey, it is just one rotten fig, it is bound to happen” and they don’t mind to much. Meanwhile, the store owner has sold all his figs, including all the rotten ones.
Quit selling rotten figs by packaging them with the good ones. Sell the good ones openly for what they are and people will buy them. I’d pay $5 for the beholder figure. If it were sold individually. I’d pay $8 for one of the Huge minis, even though I’ve seen the Bullette and Treant selling for $4. Set standard pricing by size, and cut the rarity cr@p. What is the purpose in making limited quantities of any particular miniature, especially if it is a particularly popular model, except to create the false hope that a consumer might get one of these in a box that they buy, and when they don’t, that they might keep buying until they get it. I guess it is just a gamer’s lottery.
I could see small minis for $1-2
Medium for $2-4
Large for $4-6
Huge for $6-8
Being poorly painted (though paint quality is improving, and the paint quality I guess is purely subjective based on the buyer’s painting ability and time that they are willing to invest) does not to me justify a plastic mini costing more than a quality metal mini (say something from the Reaper catalogue…and I know that if you really look, you can find a bum mini or two in the Reaper stuff, but I’m not looking at the rare exceptions here.) Who is painting these things anyway? Someone in a China, who is probably not making much for doing it.
Last thing for now: Why do the medium minis have a 1 inch base, and the huge minis have a 3 inch base, yet the large minis have a 1.5 inch base not a 2 inch base, and I think the small ones have a ¾ inch , not ½ inch base?
ASEO out
I have also been annoyed by the fact that if I really want that super cool "large red dragon" mini I have to either by mini packs by the case, hoping to get lucky (and then be stuck with dozens of minis I don't want, or more duplicates than I will ever use) - or else find it on ebay and shell out $50 + shipping.
But from a business point of view, I think WoTC was really smart to market the minis using the same tried and true model that has proven successful with Magic cards.
In terms of the miniatures game, the rare figures are more powerful, thus more desirable - which is why the value gets inflated in the resale market. This also feeds the desire for people to keep buying booster packs, hoping to get that one mini they don't have yet. Compound that with the fact that they retire the sets after only a few months, and it puts huge pressure on the customer that wants to "collect them all" (pokemon, anyone?).
Now, I'm 38 and I have a good job and I can go online and buy 5 cases of every set as they come out if I want to... but I feel really bad for younger gamers that are short on cash. When I was a kid, you bought the 3 core rule books and that was it - you were done! We didn't have minis, we used extra dice (the blue ones are the orcs, the green ones are the goblins...)
Personally, I think counters are the way to go. You can download pictures of all the existing minis from the WoTC website, size them to 1"x1",print them out on heavy card stock and cut them apart.A large or Huge mini can go on a 2x2 or 3x3 - whatever you like. It's *almost* as good as a mini,and they take up less space. You can't use them in offical mini tournaments... but then again you don't have to worry about what to do with 13 extra celestial dire badgers! :-b
I agree 100%! I wish I could just buy them for my D&D games and stop all this stupid randomness!
I would like to see a pack that was a humanoid war party. Two or three of each "Common" Gnoll/Orc/Goblin/Kobold, one or two of each "Uncommon", and one of each "Rare".
Or what about a Dragon pack that contains one of each size of dragon of a particular color?
If it has to be random, how about themed random?
Say a Necromancer pack, with a necromancer (they have several, so that could still be random) and a random assortment of skeletons, zombies, ghouls and ghasts. This whole set could be random with one large random undead figure per pack. I know there is a skeletal Minotaur, Zombie White Dragon, and Ogre Zombie, not to mention the Zombie wolf, and Skeletal Gnoll.
A Demon pack with a random assortment of demons/Devils, from the Abyssal maul and Dretch to the Demon lords.
You could have racial packs, with random assortments of all elves, Halflings or humans. Something along these lines could be sold ad ready to fight packs for the D&D mini Game. It would at least give the buyer some idea of what they were getting.
The Wood Woad...What the hell is a Wood Woad. Sure it is in some monster book or something, but come on... Heck the Flumph would be a better figure, at least they appeared in one DUNGEON adventure.
If seeing a figure makes you scurry to your resource library to figure out what it is, then it is probably one of those rotten figs I mentioned in the story about the grocery store owner.
I probably spend around $100 a year on minis. I have yet to buy a random box, because I'm not willing to get stuck with minis I don't want, and maybe not even get any I do want.
I took a personality test as part of my wife's PhD research. Turns out that I would rather not have something I want, than have something I don't want. I guess that is why the random marketing of D&D minis chafes me so bad.
ASEO out
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I like the Reaper minis quite a lot, as well. They have a nice variety (although there's still not a lot of love for the druids). I've also repainted a couple of my D&D minis. Particularly the dire bear, now I have a Dire brown bear, Dire Grizzly bear and Dire polar bear, so I'm set for most climates... I guess I can do a dire panda next.
I a similar vein, I just got a Giants pack the other day and got my 2nd Fiendish T-Rex... I also have a War-forged Titan that I can throw in if you are into the Eberron thang. If anyone wants to swap, drop me a message and we can work something out. In particular, I'm looking for a Grell, Griffon, or Otyugh. If you want to talk about what you're wanting to exchange, e-mail me at haka21@yahoo.com
Chief Technical Officer
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But from a business point of view, I think WoTC was really smart to market the minis using the same tried and true model that has proven successful with Magic cards.
In the "Credit where Credit is Due" segment, I believe WizKids was the first to apply this concept to minis with MageKnight.
-Vic.
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This is why I just use counters. I'm even tempted to get the Fiery Dragon Counter Collection Digital CD-ROM.
I guess I can do a dire panda next.
Lol
I a similar vein, I just got a Giants pack the other day and got my 2nd Fiendish T-Rex...
I thought that was a strange huge creature to make...Of course I have a 5 year-old son who has a Bizillion plastic Dinosaurs. Any time I feel like running a "Land of the Lost" adventure I just raid his toy bin.
I'll admit though, the Behir is an awesome figure. I've been using the "Cavern Crawler" from Reaper as a Behir in my games...A la Lord of the Crimson Tide, But I'd love to get hold of the D&D Behir mini...for less than the $30+ I've seen it for online. Heck, the metal "Cavern Crawler" was only $15, and I'm a fairly good painter.
I did manage to pick up a Grell as a single for $2. That’s a nice figure…I still laugh at the picture of the Grell in RtToEE. That sucker is Gargantuan. I also think the D&D plastic Grik is better than the D&D metal Grik.
I've also found a place here in OKC that sells Mage Knight figures for $.50. I now use several of those in my game, and at that price, I can cut parts off of them to customize my metal figures if I want.
I also tend to modify the D&D mini's that I buy as singles. I've never been a fan of having 10 identical Grimlock figures. A bit of Superglue jell, and I've swapped weapons with Mountain Orcs (I got a ton of these when I DMed at World Game day...The place I was running the game got like two extra shipments) Troglodytes, and used the extra weapons from War Hammer’s Mordheim sets. I also repaint figures so that each one is a little different.
Someone was telling me that you can heat the figures in hot water, bend them and freeze them to create different poses. And that they will hold the new pose when they thaw. Anybody ever tried that?
ASEO out
ASEO out
I also tend to modify the D&D mini's that I buy as singles. I've never been a fan of having 10 identical Grimlock figures. A bit of Superglue jell, and I've swapped weapons with Mountain Orcs (I got a ton of these when I DMed at World Game day...The place I was running the game got like two extra shipments) Troglodytes, and used the extra weapons from War Hammer’s Mordheim sets. I also repaint figures so that each one is a little different.
Someone was telling me that you can heat the figures in hot water, bend them and freeze them to create different poses. And that they will hold the new pose when they thaw. Anybody ever tried that?
I'd be afraid to try but you tell me if it works. ;)
About twelve years ago in the age of buying your figures unpainted and lead, I, armed with a spot of cash and little sense, bought two grand on minis. I'd planned to aggressively wade into their bulk with a paintbrush but I'd say only about sixty got painted before I cried uncle.
Many of the figures I bought after that were second hand and appeared in massive bins at this gaming store in New Jersey. It was a well worth it two hour drive because one special bin at the store was full of minis scrap. The owner said, "You can just melt those down to make new ones," but I found a treasure trove of misfit toys, and so I matched armless bugbears with disembodied tentacles and manticore heads with decapitated gold dragons etc.
It was modification paradise.
I've yet to buy one of these new painted plastic figures. It'll happen, but it feels like a real gearshift from the days when you defend your house from incursion with a well hurled shadow dragon.