In the standard fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric party, assuming no overstepping of boundaries(The wizard invalidating the rogue via spells) what does a wizard handle?
The fighter kills things with a big stick
The rogue deals with non combat challenges such as traps, social scenarios, and locked doors.
The Cleric keeps everyone alive via condition removal, healing, and buffs.
What does the wizard do besides haste and fly, that is unique to him?
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Wizards have no boundaries to overstep in this game. They can manipulate time, space, and matter. They can kill enemies. They can deal with social scenarios, traps, and locked doors. They can keep everyone alive by casting whatever "solve this problem for me" spell they want to, because chances are they have several god level spells that will work. They can summon armies to do their bidding.
Real question is, what can't a wizard do in this game? This game allows wizards to do anything they want, and be better at it than anyone else. Meanwhile, a fighter can't even use a big sword without people arguing about whether it's allowed or not.
PS. I hate wizards, in case that isn't readily apparent.
By overstepping boundaries I was referring to covering the niche of another class. I'm not concerned with what a wizard can do to cover other niches. I'm looking for what the intended niche is for the wizard.
Maybe I shouldn't have used the word wizard. Arcane caster would fit better.
Different arcane casters have different niches. Some are control specialist, some are glorified fighters using their magics to enhance the big stick they kill enemies with, Bards buff the party like no other, some arcane casters craft amazing items and weapons, some summon beasts to soak up and deal damage in combat... I don't think you can say that arcane casters only have one specific niche, is what I'm getting at.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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In an ideal, balanced party where everybody has their niche, the wizard's (arcane caster's) niche is a few things:
In combat, they can control, buff, or debuff.
Out of combat, they are the Knowledge repository, and they solve problems that flat-out require magical solutions.
Most rogues won't have the breadth of Knowledge skills that a wizard (specifically) tends to have. And in a magical world, some problems are just, well, magic, and the arcane caster is well equipped to help their party deal with those issues.
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@voodist monk
Let's rephrase it because you don't seem to get it.
Assume a party lacks an arcane caster, what can't can't it do without special effort?
As in, a party without a cleric/divine caster can't handle Condition removal, such as removing blindness or restoring negative levels.
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The fighter kills things with a big stick
The rogue deals with non combat challenges such as traps, social scenarios, and locked doors.
The Cleric keeps everyone alive via condition removal, healing, and buffs.
The Wizard does everything else.
And that "else" is only there because you assumed no overlap of niches.
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What can't a party do without an arcane caster?
Battlefield control. Compared to Hungry Pit, a polearm and Stand Still just doesn't get it done.
Flight for everyone usually comes from arcane casters. Which is huge in this game because movement sucks.
Magic item creation, because they have access to so many spells, they can usually make just about anything the party needs.
Teleportation usually comes from arcane casters, and is useful in a game with terrible movement.
And, a party without an arcane caster cannot get into the trouble you can get into with one. Arcane casters can have profound impact on storylines that a lot of mundanes cannot.
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More importantly, when I talk about a "god" Wizard, I'm talking about style not power. (like writing that will get me out of trouble.)
What god comes down and finishes off all his mortal enemies personally? No, instead he provides his followers the tools required to do it themselves.
The above is from one of the most famous Pathfinder guides of all time. The first segment is all about a wizard's role in the party, both in and out of combat. I highly recommend you check it out here.
The knowledge a lot of arcane casters have is huge. Fighters cannot identify the enemy in front of them because they start with negative useful skills. A wizard can identify it, and tell you its weaknesses. The ability to identify everything everywhere, be it enemies or magical items, is something a party would struggle to accomplish without an arcane caster.
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Once upon a time Arcane and Divine magic was quite different. These days with the exception of healing magics (and even that line is much weaker than before with things like Witches out there now), that difference has pretty much gone away. I don't think their is ANYTHING that a party absolutely needs having a 9-level arcane caster for.
This isn't at all to say that Wizards and such aren't powerful. They have access to some extremely powerful game breaking spells, and often get powerful spells earlier than other classes, but they aren't absolutely necessary.
@voodist monk
Let's rephrase it because you don't seem to get it.Assume a party lacks an arcane caster, what can't can't it do without special effort?
As in, a party without a cleric/divine caster can't handle Condition removal, such as removing blindness or restoring negative levels.
In most combats, it is the party Wizard or Sorcerer that inflicts the most damage. Classically, it it the role of the rest of the party to keep the Wizard alive long enough for him to kill everybody. So a Party with no Wizards is like an army with no cannons.
It is usually the Wizard that Identifies Magic Items. A party that has no Wizard traditionally has to pay someone they hope they can trust to figure out what any given magic item can do.
There are lots of other utilities that a Wizard might serve, and a Wizard might play other roles in combat: buffing other party members, summoning/animating more cannon fodder, and many other things. Wizards have a very diverse portfolio.
But generally, I'd say the things they bring that most other characters don't is magic item identification and heavy artillery--blasting.
I'd have to disagree with you on the blasting for a couple of reasons.
1. Unless the enemy has very poor defenses (saves and resistances), the fighter will be pumping out more damage. Let's take a 5th level wizard and a 5th level fighter. By this point, the wizard has Fireball and the fighter has Weapon Training. The fighter should have at least a +10 to hit, assuming 18 STR, and likely more. On a hit, he'll deal 2d6+7 minimum, assuming a regular greatsword. That's 13 average damage. The wizard, on the other hand, uses Fireball for 5d6 fire damage. Assuming 18 INT, that's a DC 17 reflex save for half damage. On a failed save, that's an average of 15 damage, 7 if he succeeds. Oh, and that's before applying any resistances. With the same resource (a 3rd level slot), you could instead cast Haste on the fighter, doubling his damage output, buffing his AC and reflex saves, and allowing him to get to his target faster, and unlike Fireball, it lasts for 5 rounds.
2. Even if you're dead-set on blasting, the sorcerer blasts better than the wizard because spontaneous casters are better at it, and there's several bloodline arcanas that make blasting much better, such as Draconic, Elemental, or even both if you're feeling bold. Blasters rely on fewer spells that they need more times a day, and that's the sorcerer to a "T."
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@voodist monk
Let's rephrase it because you don't seem to get it.Assume a party lacks an arcane caster, what can't can't it do without special effort?
As in, a party without a cleric/divine caster can't handle Condition removal, such as removing blindness or restoring negative levels.
There is nothing a party cannot do without an arcane caster.
I've run entire campaigns where the party did not have one and they had no issues.
I've also played in campaigns where I've filled every role, on different characters, with arcane casters.
Pathfinder is the kind of game that does not rigidly confine you to a box. Anyone can build to fill a role not traditionally associated with their class.
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Given the sheer volume of spells and options at a Wizard's disposal. I think the 'intended' answer at almost all times is. "Everything else."
Upon entering a complex situation, the party looks at their sheets, and almost always the Wizard has the most options to look over and consider.
The Rogue wonders if he can use a skill for it.
The Cleric wonders if he can heal it, then looks over a smaller potentially relevant spell list.
The Fighter wonders if he can fight it.
The Wizard is wondering how he can justify circumventing the rule that makes the situation a problem in the first place.
The other roles are the name-brand solution to various typical problems. The Wizard is the Yellow Pages.
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In the standard fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric party, assuming no overstepping of boundaries(The wizard invalidating the rogue via spells) what does a wizard handle?
The fighter kills things with a big stick
The rogue deals with non combat challenges such as traps, social scenarios, and locked doors.
The Cleric keeps everyone alive via condition removal, healing, and buffs.What does the wizard do besides haste and fly, that is unique to him?
Well, in this specific party the Wizard is pretty crucial for passing knowledge checks, identifying enemies strengths/weakness, and crafting magical equipment. He can also provides a couple buffs, some battlefield control and AOE damage vs. crowds, swarms etc.
I don't think that steps on any of those other classes toes too much.
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The other roles are the name-brand solution to various typical problems. The Wizard is the Yellow Pages.
I think that might be somewhat true for the 4 classes you mention, although I think you greatly underestimate the cleric.
Those aren't the only 4 classes in the game though. In particular, the 6th level casting classes all tend to be quite versatile with a variety of options.
And one does have to remember that real Wizards and Schrodinger's Wizard are different. Yes, a wizard can theoretically solve just about any problem in the game. Whether he can actually do that at the point in time it is needed is less certain. In fact, a cleric is actually a bit more likely to be able to achieve this, since at least having the spell in the spell book isn't an issue (having it either prepared or having an open slot and time is then the question).
To me, the party wizard in theory handles the role of "spike prevention". The fighter can only kill so many things at a time, the rogue can only charm so many people at a party with voice alone, and the cleric can't be casting protect against evil every other round. A wizard should be expected to jealously horde those hard learned spells for the moment the party FAILS. If your wizard (caster in general) uses fireball in every fight, then you as a DM are allowing him to run whole hog over the fighters turf. Take away rest, don't let them restore spells as often. The fighter should beg the wizard to save his tail by the end of the day, and if the wizard is wasting spells when they haven't hit that point yet then he is overstepping his bounds and leaving himself open to being unable to help later when it counts.
To rephrase: As a GM you should discourage the 15 minute adventuring day.
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Because heaven forbid the Wizard's player using spells to me moderately useful in combat, instead of rewriting your entire campaign!
Shrödinger's Wizard, 15 minute adventuring day... getting closer!
To rephrase: As a GM you should discourage the 15 minute adventuring day.
To rephrase it in a different way:
Don't let anyone play a wizard because it will be boring due to the GM forbidding you from doing anything.
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Ban-hammers are the lamest weapon in this game. GM's shouldn't ban anything. And players shouldn't want to take the fun out of it for others players, either.
I've played with GM's that banned archetypes, all of them, and a bunch of other stuff. It was awful!
I've played with magic users who killed everything before any martial could do anything. It was equally as awful.
I've also played with GM's that didn't ban anything, let 3rd party material fly, all races open, and best of all, everyone in the party played as a team, weren't selfish glory hounds. It was a great experience.
Up the level of gameplay, don't lower a powerful class to meet mediocre gameplay.
Ban-hammers are the lamest weapon in this game. GM's shouldn't ban anything. And players shouldn't want to take the fun out of it for others players, either.
I've played with GM's that banned archetypes, all of them, and a bunch of other stuff. It was awful!
I've played with magic users who killed everything before any martial could do anything. It was equally as awful.
I've also played with GM's that didn't ban anything, let 3rd party material fly, all races open, and best of all, everyone in the party played as a team, weren't selfish glory hounds. It was a great experience.
Up the level of gameplay, don't lower a powerful class to meet mediocre gameplay.
A thousand times yes.
That said, the default assumption of adventure paths is that all the players go well out of their way to cripple themselves. A lot of DMs use adventure paths because they don't have time to build their own.
You can use Kingsmaker AP and let every character use every thing they want to, and the only thing wrong you can do as a GM is get in the way.
The Wizard’s primary role is to bypass obstacles. The wizard can often remove the need for the other roles. This is not so much a matter of overstepping boundaries, but rather removing the need for the boundary in the first place. If a wizard can avoid the combat the fighter has no need to kill anything. If the wizard can prevent the party from being damaged the cleric has nothing to heal. Why bother disarming the trap when the wizard can teleport the entire party past the trap?
The other thing a wizard does is act as a force multiplier. A lot of people talk about a wizard using his spells to do the job of the rogue. A real wizard will use his magic to make the rogue better. Instead of casting invisibility on himself the smart wizard casts it on the rogue. Sure the wizard could cast invisibility on himself and have a better chance of being stealthy than the rogue. But if he casts it on the rogue instead the chances of someone spotting the rogue are going to be almost nonexistent.
Let’s say you have a 3rd level party with a wizard and rouge in it. The rogue has an 18 DEX and put 3 skill points into stealth for a +10 to stealth. The wizard has a 14 DEX and no skill points in DEX for a +2 to stealth. If the wizard cast invisibility on himself he will have a +22 to stealth. Obviously the wizard is better at sneaking around than the rogue. But if the wizard casts invisibility on the rogue the rogues has a +30 his stealth roll. Assuming the person you are sneaking past has a +10 Perception roll that gives the unaided rogue a 50% chance to get past him. The chances are the invisible wizard will be able to sneak by the guard. But the guard has absolutely no chance to spot the invisible rogue. The invisible rogue could roll a 1 on his stealth roll, and the guard could roll a 20 on his perception roll and the invisible rouge would still succeed. The wizard has to roll a 9 or better to be guaranteed of being able to sneak past the guard.
The problem is, you are trying to force the most versatile class in the game into one defined niche. The point of the Wizard is that you can do almost everything. If you want to have a niche as an arcane caster, go Sorcerer.
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To rephrase: As a GM you should discourage the 15 minute adventuring day.To rephrase it in a different way:
Don't let anyone play a wizard because it will be boring due to the GM forbidding you from doing anything.
Doubt it, since I'm usually the DM in my group and encourage creative gameplay.
But: If the party can pull back and regroup, so can whoever is on the other side.
Once the party realizes there is an intelligent opponent who takes advantage of the party leaving/resting to call reinforcements, set traps, etc., the caster's are less likely to burn all their resources at the drop of a hat.
Example: party kills medusa cleric + minions, but caster burned most of her high level spells in the process. Party teleports out to rest. The BBEG is a high level cleric, and the medusa was one of his lieutenants. One Create Undead spell later, the Medusa is back as a JuJu zombie. She's now stronger than ever and reanimates her minions herself. She also now knows the party's go-to tactics and prepares her daily spells accordingly.
The problem is, you are trying to force the most versatile class in the game into one defined niche. The point of the Wizard is that you can do almost everything. If you want to have a niche as an arcane caster, go Sorcerer.
So much this. The few things a wizard can't really do are healing, consistent damage output, and tanking. Outside of those, the wizard is king.
The problem is, you are trying to force the most versatile class in the game into one defined niche. The point of the Wizard is that you can do almost everything. If you want to have a niche as an arcane caster, go Sorcerer.So much this. The few things a wizard can't really do are healing, consistent damage output, and tanking. Outside of those, the wizard is king.
Even then, once you get to 4th/5th level versions of the spell, various applications of the Summon Monster spell can perform most of those functions. Given, they won't be on par with a character that is focused on that type of strategy, but its at the cost of a spell slot.
Plenty of Summons, especially later on, have healing SLAs and there is no shortage of monsters with decent damage output (damage) and combat maneuvers (effective tanking). If they enemy uses resources to get rid of the summons then they have still performed effective tanking by absorbing enemy action economy.
The problem is, you are trying to force the most versatile class in the game into one defined niche. The point of the Wizard is that you can do almost everything. If you want to have a niche as an arcane caster, go Sorcerer.So much this. The few things a wizard can't really do are healing, consistent damage output, and tanking. Outside of those, the wizard is king.Even then, once you get to 4th/5th level versions of the spell, various applications of the Summon Monster spell can perform most of those functions. Given, they won't be on par with a character that is focused on that type of strategy, but its at the cost of a spell slot.
Plenty of Summons, especially later on, have healing SLAs and there is no shortage of monsters with decent damage output (damage) and combat maneuvers (effective tanking). If they enemy uses resources to get rid of the summons then they have still performed effective tanking by absorbing enemy action economy.
Bearing in mind that most of the best ones are evil, so you'll have to talk with your GM about whether or not summoning evil monsters is an evil act. If you don't care, go nuts. Otherwise, Bralani Azata can make the wizard half decent at healing.
I'm a big fan of Hedge Witch with the healing patron as a substitute for Wizard/Cleric. Won't handle everything, but extreme cases can be handled by UMD.
Anyways, an important thing to note, is that wizards have to prepare the spells ahead of time which means they won't be able to always have the right spell for any situation.
Any problem that can wait 15 minutes though can be solved if they leave open spell slots. (Which most prepared casters should be doing.)
@voodist monk
Let's rephrase it because you don't seem to get it.Assume a party lacks an arcane caster, what can't can't it do without special effort?
As in, a party without a cleric/divine caster can't handle Condition removal, such as removing blindness or restoring negative levels.
From my experiences, travel is a good bit harder without an arcane caster. In dungeons, crossing chasms and the like is easier if someone can give the fighter fly and have him carry the party across. Arcane casters get these options sooner than anyone else, and can use tricks like Spider Climb/Levitate before fly is available. In combat, the dimension door taxi is a good way to catch up to opponents using terrain against you with bottlenecks or ranged attacks. So are tricks like telekinetic charge to position the fighter with a full attack or the rogue with a flank.
Our of the dungeon, Teleporting to the city to buy items, teleporting to plot point B, or similar travel is much faster with an arcane caster. It is dangerous, but still quicker and easier than normal travel. Before this level, Mount and Phantom Chariot are ways to get around.
Another thing arcane casters typically do better than others is manipulating the terrain. This benefit usually isn't seen until the party is having trouble coping with large groups. spells like Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone, Grease, etc all can delay enemies from getting to the party, giving a bit more time to fight. And fog spells can be used to slow enemies or provide a 'safe zone ' for emergency healing or retreating.
This isn't to say only arcane casters can do these things or that a party needs one to survive. Nor are these the only things an arcane caster can do, they can also directly take combatants out of fights with save-or-lose spells, scout entire dungeons with divinations, serve as emergency healers with summoned monsters and planar bindings, and much more. But these have been the strengths of arcane casters from my observations, and the things that aren't just borrowing a niche from someone else.
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Anyways, an important thing to note, is that wizards have to prepare the spells ahead of time which means they won't be able to always have the right spell for any situation.
Any problem that can wait 15 minutes though can be solved if they leave open spell slots. (Which most prepared casters should be doing.)
1 minute if they take the Fast Study arcane discovery. Which, if you are the type of wizard that leaves slots open for later (and you should be unless you know your DM will go out of his way to limit you using them), you should always take Fast Study as either your regular or bonus feat at level 5.
The Wizard of the group is general utility. Think "I got an app for that". Regardless of any situation that the party might be placed into, they have a spell that either makes the situation more manageable, or simply solves the problem outright. Not only do they have a lot of spells they have access to, but they are highly knowledgeable individuals. They can act as the storyline "drivers" with knowledge checks.
Need past a Locked door? Knock.
Need a door locked to ensure our escape? Arcane Lock.
Anything magical in the room? Detect Magic.
We found something magical, what does it do? Identify
Enemy spellcaster? Blindness / Ready an action to Counterspell with Dispel
Bunch of mobs charging us? Fireball / Chain Lightning / Cone of Cold
Bunch of mobs charging us and we can't hold them off with a fireball? Wall of Fire / Wall of Ice / Acid Pit / Spiked Pit / Black Tentacles / Cloudkill
Is it dark in here? Dancing Lights / Light
Spook someone or cause a distraction? Ghost Sound / Minor Image / Major Image
A bunch of archers who have just nocked and are ready to fire at the party? Wind Wall
Noxious Gas coming at us? Wind Wall
Something written/spoken in a language foreign to the party? Comprehend Languages / Tongues
Magical Runes or Text? Read Magic
Facing enemies with Light Blindness? Daylight
Need a campfire while it's raining cats and dogs? Spark.
Need to get a good night's rest in hostile territory? Alarm / Keep Watch
Need across a ravine? Dimension Door / Fly
Need across a continent? Greater Teleport
Need the bad guy to not teleport or use interplanar travel? Dimensional Lock
Falling? Feather Fall
Need your party to make it past the guards who refuse to leave their post? Invisibility Sphere / Mass Invisibility
You spot a trap but there's no way to disable it without getting pulverized? Summon Monster
Need that guy to stop chasing/beating up your Cleric? Telekinesis / Hold Monster / Hold Person / Hydraulic Torrent / Slow
What's the bad guy doing right now? Scry
Need to make sure the bad guy can't Scry on you? Mage's Private Sanctum / False Vision
Need an NPC or Monster to be your friend? Charm Person / Charm Monster
Chasing someone? Or need that guy to stop chasing you? Hold Person / Slow / Ray of Exhaustion
Reshape the world? Wish
Wizards casts "solve this problem for me" spell, it's not a joke, they have a spell for that, no matter what it is. Like the MacGyver of magics.
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Unless you need to heal or revive someone. Wizards don't get healing spells.
To stabilise someone, pump them with Devil Juice
For long-term recovery, summon/bind an azata. Alternatively, use a wand of devil juice to heal them, if non-good/silver hit point damage is the problem.
If course, these aren't as easy as having someone in the party use real healing on them, but in a pinch wizards can be the healer.
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Its not quite the same. Infernal Healing is listed as an evil spell. Summoning something for their magic is not you casting the spells yourself.
True, it certainly is not a wizard's strength, but summoning something for healing is often listed as a good spell (lots of azata/angels get healing) which can counterbalance the evil*, and while it isn't you directly healing anyone unless it is hit point damage, it gets the job done. Far from ideal, especially planar binding which is crazy dangerous if done lightly, but if what the party needs is to get rid of a condition it works.
*Or if this isn't how you run alignment, Celestial Healing exists too. It just happens to plausibly be the least efficient healing in the game besides waiting a month to get better by sleeping. Still, if the goal is stabilising the dying fighter until the cleric can get to him, or sometimes reviving the cleric from -5, a few applications can do the job.
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Infernal Healing is listed as an evil spell.
Irrelevant unless you're using an optional rule from a splatbook that literally breaks just about everything the CRB says on the topic.
Summoning something for their magic is not you casting the spells yourself.
"Oh no your honor, I didn't kill anyone, I just hired an assassin. See, I'm totally innocent!"
I mean, so what, after the Bralani the Wizard summoned saved your dying ass, you're gonna kick him from the party for not doing anything to help you? Is that what you're saying? Because otherwise, "unless you need to heal" simply isn't really true.Seriously, as almost all healing is done outfight and with wands, and as Wands of Infernal Healign are better than Wands of CLW, when it comes to HP healing, Wizard is about as good as Cleric.
Oh, and because it wasn't said before, Limited Wish can reproduce Raise Dead and Reincarnate.
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Honestly if Wizards had cure spells, there would be no other need for divine spellcasting classes. Wizards do so much for a party already. This is why a party needs a divine spellcaster, whether Cleric, Oracle, Druid, or even a Paladin.
To me, the party wizard in theory handles the role of "spike prevention". The fighter can only kill so many things at a time, the rogue can only charm so many people at a party with voice alone, and the cleric can't be casting protect against evil every other round. A wizard should be expected to jealously horde those hard learned spells for the moment the party FAILS. If your wizard (caster in general) uses fireball in every fight, then you as a DM are allowing him to run whole hog over the fighters turf. Take away rest, don't let them restore spells as often. The fighter should beg the wizard to save his tail by the end of the day, and if the wizard is wasting spells when they haven't hit that point yet then he is overstepping his bounds and leaving himself open to being unable to help later when it counts.To rephrase: As a GM you should discourage the 15 minute adventuring day.
I dont think GMs should discourage 15 minutes adventuring days. I think casters should. Make sure everyone has fun. Rest when you aren't sure you can ensure the next battle goes the parties way.
Rinse. Repeat.
I dont think GMs should discourage 15 minutes adventuring days. I think casters should. Make sure everyone has fun. Rest when you aren't sure you can ensure the next battle goes the parties way.
Rinse. Repeat.
The irony? Almost everything a GM can send towards the players to enforce a 15 minutes adventuring day is harder on the martials than on the casters. Combat with many opponents? AoE spells are vastly superior. Combats with waves of enemies? Spells like Wall of Fire outshine everything. Wandering monsters prevent resting? Robe Trick and other resting spells help. Dungeon with many enemies that "refill" each day? Teleportation, invisibility spells, or alternate routes via burrowing or Stone Shape are better than fighting everyone. Timed mission? See right above.
Honestly if Wizards had cure spells, there would be no other need for divine spellcasting classes. Wizards do so much for a party already. This is why a party needs a divine spellcaster, whether Cleric, Oracle, Druid, or even a Paladin.
I strongly disagree. No party needs cure spells - cure spells are incredibly bad for infight healing, and Infernal Healing (or wands) can handle outfight healing.
What you actually need a 'healer' for is effect removal - the Remove X line of spells (of which only Remove Curse is on the S/W list) and (Lesser) Restoration, mostly. Of course, a Witch can cast most of those, Restoration can also be cast by some psychic casters and certain Witches (healing patron), and for higher levels, Heal is on some non-divine lists as well. Also, there's UMDed scrolls, archetypes like Razmiran Priest, and the ability to simply teleport the inflicted party member to a town and hire spellcasting services.
Cure spells are a joke. Touch range? Single target? Need concentration checks?
Lack of player skill in eliminating or mitigating all of the above.