OmniMage's page

'Formula' behind the official prices (for the rings of wizardry)? Ha!

WotC did some many things right with 3rd edition, but also did some mistakes. I think the price for the rings of wizardry is one of them. I've never been able to make sense of the prices for them. I don't think WotC could either when they made the Epic Level Handbook. The formula for the Epic rings of Wizardry 5 to 9 is quite literally SL ^ 2 * 10 (epic tax) * 1000 gp.

250,000 gp (epic wizardry V)
360,000 gp (epic wizardry VI)
490,000 gp (epic wizardry VII)
640,000 gp (epic wizardry VIII)
810,000 gp (epic wizardry IX)

I found that I made a mistake in my top post. I made an effort to remove all mention of arcane and I missed one. My intent was to make these rings work for all casters.

As for the price, I was considering increasing it by another 50% (2000 gp). The proposal of 12k for a type 1 by Azothath seemed a bit too much.

I'm also not sure if Azothath intended to keep the double spell slots with the rings. I was going for finite number of spells, not doubling the base spell slots of every arcane spellcasting class you had. You can get a lot of 1st level spells if you multiclass enough.

@Taja I haven't heard about what you think of the rings aside from thinking Azothath prices were too high. What are your thoughts?

Ring of invisibility
listed price 20000 gp
2 (sl) * 3 (cl) * 2000 gp (base) * 2 (1 min/lv) = 24000 gp.

Ring of freedom of movement
listed price 40000 gp
4 (sl) * 7 (cl) * 2000 gp (base) * 1.5 (10 min/lv) = 84000 gp.

So the ring of invisibility is cheaper than what the math would suggest, and the ring of freedom of movement is less than half what the math would suggest.

Anyways. I like pointing out that the handy haversack should be priced as 90000 gp magic item, but is instead priced as 2000 gp. This means that it can be a common low level gear for adventurers, despite having a mid caster level and spell level.

If we are going back to 3.5 to quote rules, lets go back even further to the 3.0 book Tome and Blood. On p. 73, it covers designing new magic items. For the belt of many pockets, the designer decided that the math for it made the item too expensive. The designer then choose another method to calculate the math that was closer to something they found acceptable.

I think that choosing a price for new kinds of magic gear is like creating new rules for the game, or at least creating new splat content. Magic items can do things that you would otherwise need a feat, class feature, or even a spell to do. Making a magic item more cheap or expensive that the base math suggests can affect the balance of the game.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm against raising the price of the type 1 ring... unless there is a proportional increase to the price of the pearls of power and runestones of power. Not only did I want to reduce the price, but I also wanted to have the price of the rings be consistent with pearls and runestones.

I forgot to add a condition that the rings must be worn in order to keep the extra spell slots. It should be something like "Removing the ring will cause you to lose the bonus spell slots as though you had not received them during your daily preparations."

I think rings of wizardry are too expensive. At least the lower ones are. I've designed these new rings to fix a few problems I think the rings had.

Ring of Magical Might
Aura moderate (Type 1) or strong (Type 2-4) (no school);
CL 11th (1), 14th (2), 17th (3), 20th (4)
Slot ring; Price 6000 gp (Type 1), 24000 gp (Type 2), 54000 gp (Type 3), 96000 gp (Type 4); Weight --
Description
These rings provide 4 more spell slots to prepared arcane spell casters, or 2 more spell slots for spontaneous spell casters. Type 1 provides spell slots to 1st level spells, type 2 provides spell slots to 2nd level spells, type 3 provides spell slots to 3rd level spells, and so on.
If you have levels in 2 or more spell casting classes, you have to decide how the spell slots are distributed during your daily preparations. 2 prepared slots are worth 1 spontaneous spell slot. You could give one prepared class 3 spells and another 1 prepared spell, or you could give 1 spontaneous class 1 spell and a prepared class 2 spells.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring; Cost 3000 gp (Type 1), 12000 gp (Type 2), 27000 gp (Type 3), 48000 gp (Type 4)

1) If runestones of power are twice as expensive as pearls of power, then why not make it twice as expensive for these rings? Or, in this case, half as effective. Spontaneous spells slots vs prepared respectively.

2) The price I used is SL ^ 2 * 1500 * number of (prepared) spell slots.

3) I got rid of the limited wish prerequisite. Its a bit arcane centric focus, which isn't desired for rings for any caster.

I'm looking for feedback.

According to this website, there are 10 monsters that have miracle in their stat blocks. Some of them can cast spells like a cleric and include miracle as one of their prepared spells. I did not include those below.
https://www.artemis-tabletop.com/bestiary/advanced_search

Elder Wyrm - 1/month
Izfiitar - 1/year
Yamaraj - 3/day (with restrictions)
Sirrush - 3/day (with restrictions)
Talmandor - 3/day
Mythic Solar Pitri (Agnishvatta) - 1/day

Yeah. At will says that a creature can use the spell as many times per day as they like. A creature that had miracle as an at will spell like ability would likely be the most powerful being out there short of being a god.

I was putting off posting this spell because I couldn't think of a better name for it. Its been a while and no better name has popped into my head.

The goal was to make a spell that could grant a feat, and not be limited to just the caster or half-elves like Paragon Surge does.

I'm also not sure if this should be a transmutation spell or an enchantment spell.

I'd like thoughts and opinions please.

Manifest Feat

School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, arcanist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric 3, investigator 3, magus 4, medium 3, oracle 3, paladin 4, redmantisassassin 3, sorcerer 3, warpriest 3, witch 3, wizard 3
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Description

The target of this spell manifests a new skill, talent, or ability. This takes the form of a feat. The caster gets to choose what feat the target obtains. The target must meet all prerequisites; otherwise they can't use the feat. This feat must be one that the character can learn through practice and training, like combat or metamagic feats; not a feat of social status and the like, such as leadership.
What ever feat the caster picks when first cast on a target will remain set for the remainder of the day, so repeated casting of this spell will yield the same feat.

I'm not aware of anything else you can do to further reduce ASF. It sucks that arcane spell casters need to extra feats (and maybe a level dip) to wear armor effectively.

The other way around this is to use the still spell metamagic feat (oddly the rod version does not appear to exist).

Edit: I did some looking and found the shielded mage feat. It doesn't provide DR, but it might help keep your AC high.
Shielded Mage

There is a magic crossbow that helps with attack rolls involving ranged touch attacks and beating spell resistance. So keeping a ranged weapon as a backup isn't a bad idea.

Mage's Crossbow

It appears to be priced as a +3 weapon, so it wouldn't be that hard to move it to another ranged weapon (with GM's permission).

I favor having the wizard carry weapons. A light crossbow will have greater range than 1st level spells, and can be used many times more than what you have at low levels. Daggers can be used when grappled. Magic staves can be used as quarter staves. Rods can be used as clubs.

Its a shame that wizards can't use armor very well (risk of arcane spell failure); they can use all the help they can get at low levels. Yeah, they can cast mage armor, but they have so few spells at low level, so it feels wasteful to use a spell try to catch up to the martial characters.

To avoid running out of spells at low levels, I suggest you carry scrolls. All wizards start out with scribe scroll as a bonus feat, so you should have little excuse to not carry spare scrolls. Low level scrolls are cheap and can easily be made while using adventuring crafting rates (up to 250 gp per day).

I think so. A kinetic blast is treated as a weapon for purposes of gaining feats like weapon focus. I think those feats would work even if you were flinging around spells that require a ranged attack roll.

Well, the flexible feat is the thing I want. I can discard all the rest of paragon surge. I don't want a spell that works for only 1 race. Other than that, I figured the spell itself would be a good starting point. I'm guessing you don't agree. Is the spell level too low? Its why I started out asking if Paragon Surge was too powerful.

A problem with having a spell for each feat group is it reduces flexibility. It creates a bunch of spells that lacks flexibility to the point where no one bothers preparing the spells. Its like a spell that only works on dragons; you wouldn't prepare it unless you knew you were going to fight a dragon that day. At least that is what I fear.

Creating magic items using spells is how magic item creation used to work for earlier versions of DND. I don't think anyone will bother learning item creation feats if they could learn a single spell that could cover all of that. So I'd like to scratch that off the list.

I think if you get rid of damage caps, then low level spells can become more damaging than high level spells because of metamagic. Empower spell and maximize spell could really push damage potential of a mere fireball that has no damage caps.

Another thing to note is that the DC of spells won't increase with the damage. Spell DC is 10 + spell level + caster ability modifier + other factors.

I stopped to think about this spell more and I forgot about it completely. Sorry. I remembered about this after paragon surge is being talked about on the forums again.

I've decided that I will cave to the suggestion of only allowing 1 feat per day period. I haven't figured out a good alternative to it. I've read of a few ways that paragon surge can be abused since I first wanted to make a new spell.

I've made one change though. My spell can now be used to grant a skill, not just a feat. Once picked, you can't change it for the remaining day period.

I think I'll call this spell 'Unlock Latent Potential'. Make it enchantment. Maybe make it last 10 minutes per level. It'll be a 3rd level spell. I'm thinking of making it have improved versions at 6th and 9th level as well. The difference being you can make additional picks at with the improved versions.

The description I'm working on:
This spell will unlock your potential, giving you a skill or feat you don't have. When you are first targeted by this spell, pick either a single skill or a single feat. If you pick a skill, you get that skill with the maximum number of ranks you can have in a skill. If you pick a feat, you must pick a feat that you qualify for. Once you make your choice, it is set for the day. Recasting this spell on you during that day period will only result in the same skill or feat that you picked earlier being unlocked. The GM may veto your pick of a feat if they think you require something more than a few skills or talents to benefit (such as the leadership feat).

I don't allow alignment or class requirements discounts for magic items. I think the game works less well when allowed. When allowed, everyone wants to use it for price discounts and security (cause they will make it work only for themselves or party members). My opinion though; I don't have any official rules to point to.

Well, thanks. Unfortunately research a spell doesn't appear to be a thing at this time, at least not with the base game.

I don't know. I don't think any of the deities have been stated out. I don't think it would be a good idea to do so. One of the problems is that if you do stat out a god, the players might want to try to kill it. I think it would be better to leave the abilities of gods as unknown.

Here is a thread where I was asking questions of paragon surge for the purpose of making a new spell.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43yff?Is-Paragon-Surge-OP

I don't think so. At least, I don't think magic would work that way.

I did work on a new spell that gave you a bonus feat. I don't think I finished it. It was going to be like paragon surge in that it was level 3 spell but with a longer duration. I'll go look for it later.

I've tried looking for spell research rules, but I'm not finding much. I've tried reading the material for spell casters and spell casting in general, I've tried searching pdfs for spell research or even just research in general, and even searched the web. I'm not getting a lot of info for spell research in Pathfinder 2e. Can anyone can point me in the right direction?

FYI, I'm still new. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks for the replies so far. DND (and by extension pathfinder 1e) taught you that copying spells and spellbooks required expensive inks in order to hold the magic of the spells. It sounded a bit dubious to me though. I guess they needed some way to make spells and scrolls expensive.

I'm totally fine with dropping it, but with having been trained to expect it, it would have been nice for the rules to mention that its not a thing anymore.

How much time does it take, and how much does it cost to copy a spellbook? I can't find any rules on it. I can find rules for learning new spells, but not copying spells. I want to know how to make a backup spellbook in case I lose my primary spellbook. Pathfinder 1e had rules on it.

I've looked up the rest of the class features of the bard that you get with VMC. I've decided it is viable, but the character I was designing is (or was supposed to be) a shy introvert and the bard class strikes me as extrovert. Bardic knowledge was the main thing I wanted.

I'll make a build of this character you are suggesting and try a few practice runs, but I'll also be writing up a loremaster vmc and be making a character from that.

Well, I'm looking for a boost to know skills so I can identify creatures and reveal bits of information on them. You get 1 bit of information for passing the DC, and another bit of information for every 5 you beat the DC by. I'm expecting to get a +5 bonus from this class feature by level 10, and +10 by 20. At least that is what my goal is. I think this would be better than picking a few skill focus feats.

If my goal is to know stuff about monsters, I probably only need ranks in 5 know skills (Arcana, Dungoneering, Nature, Planes, and Religion).

Thanks for feedback. I wasn't sure if there was precedent for what I wanted to do. I'll talk it over with the GM with the knowledge that I'm trying to bend the rules.

A wizard with a bard vmc that is a bit of teacher might work. I'll give it some thought.

Hmm... I posted in homebrew instead of advice. Maybe that was a mistake.

I'm making a wizard character that I want to be very knowledgeable. The Bardic Knowledge class feature will suit the character well, but I don't want the Bardic Performances that comes later. Could I just remove those? What about substituting class features from other classes? Maybe a few secrets from the lore master prestige class. It would also be nice if bardic knowledge came online at 1st level instead of 3rd.

Specific overrules general. In this case, the rules for using a use-activated item says one thing, but then the item itself says another, which is more specific. So I would do what the item says, when using it.

Following magic items, I'd say a Std actn to open (stays open until closed). There's really no reason to close the bag until you rest or if thieves are about.

I don't think its a good idea to leave a bag open, even a magical bag. Things might fall out. Combat and rough terrain might jiggle the bag, spilling some of the contents out.

67. Cat of Disguise This feather token is a carved seated cat of darkwood, licking it's paw. It can be activated to become a normal housecat. It is usually black, but you can will the figurine to become any color or pattern of colors typically found on a mundane housecat, and it will activate in the form of a cat matching that coloration. This housecat is utterly typical for its species, and not terribly cooperative or well-trained. If you hold it by the scruff and speak the command word a second time, it will return to figurine form.

It hates this. It will do anything to prevent it. It will cut you.

Love this! So cat like.

Celestial armor is a magic item, not a special material. I think. Stat wise, its a little bit better than +3 mithral chainmail, especially in max dex.

I would pick Arcanist. They have plenty of flexibility for casting spells and the quick study exploit all but seals the deal. Their downside is them needing a 2nd ability score, charisma, for some of their abilities.

Unfortunately most magic items don't show the math that was used to make the item. A weakness of the dnd 3.5 system. It makes it difficult to copy or edit magic items, especially for those who likes crafting and customizing magic items.

Another thing to note is that some magic items don't follow any pricing rules. A handy haversack should cost 90,000 gp because it uses a 5th level spell (5 * 9 * 2000 gp), but instead they cost 2000 gp.

When it comes to making custom magic items, you are in some part playing rule maker as the price can play a big role of when you get a power or whether you get a power at all. For instance, the handy haversack and related items makes it easy to carry a lot of loot at low levels. The bag itself is 5 lbs, but can carry 120 lbs. 120 lbs is enough to encumber all but the strongest humans, but the handy haversack makes it trivial to carry that much. Even a weak wizard can easily carry 5 lbs without encumbrance.

I wouldn't rely on lore from other RPGs or fiction. World of Darkness vampires are very different from DND/Pathfinder vampires. One could write a book listing the differences.

I did some reading. I recommend that you use a buckler as your shield. You can use ranged weapons like a bow or crossbow with it without penalty. You can cast spells using your buckler arm but then you lose your AC bonus from your buckler for the turn.

Alternatively, you could wear a light or heavy shield, in which case you will need to drop your weapon or shield to cast spells or to use a bow or crossbow. Dropping a weapon is free action, but picking it back up is a move action. Dropping a shield is worse because it takes move action to drop and 2 move actions to pick up and ready the shield. Picking up an item provokes an attack of opportunity.

You really should have magic equipment at this point. What does your GM expect you to spend all your money on? I don't know if you can spend all your money without magic items. A +1 weapon will be about 2300 gp, and +1 magic armor will be at least 1150 gp, and a +1 shield will be another 1150 gp. There are many magic items that boost your stats by +1 ranging from 1000 to 2000 gp, or belts and headbands that boost your ability scores by +2 for 4000 gp.

Mithral can be used as a material for weapons. It counts as silver, so you don't need to worry about the penalties for using alchemical silver weapons.

I would recommend mithral armor for mobility reasons. If you can't reach your opponents quickly, or get in position to protect your spell casters, you don't matter in melee.

Ranged weapons are a must. A composite bow will be your best option.

I'm not sure if you can cast spells with a weapon and shield combo. You might want to use a 2 handed weapon instead so you could hold the weapon in 1 hand when you want to cast spells. Or pick spells that don't need somatic components.

The arcane sage bloodline doesn't give the sorcerer the means to make their own spell books. I think it would be handy to not have to rely on a wizard to write spell books for them.

As for Arcane Apotheosis, I think there should be some means to store excess spell levels when powering magic items with charges. For instance, if you use a 4th spell slot, you'd waste 1 level because you need spell levels in multiples of 3.

Staves always have a maximum of 10 charges (unless you are dealing with something that breaks the rules like artifacts such as the staff of the magi). You can recharge a staff by 1 point per day by spending a spell slot of the highest spell level used by the staff. Your class also needs to be able to cast at least 1 spell held by the staff.

The cost for the highest level spell is 800 gp * spell level * caster level. The cost for the second highest spell is 600 gp * spell level * caster level, and everything else is 400 gp * spell level * caster level. This is the price for every spell using only 1 charge per spell. If you wish to reduce the price, you can make spells use more charges. Divide the price by the number of charges the spell will use. The caster level for all spells in a staff must be the same, and must be at least 8th caster level (so staves are not for low level characters).

You may design staves that have metamagic feats added to the spells. Like metamagic feats applied to normal spells, the spells in a staff that are improved by metamagic feats are treated as though they were higher level spells. So an empowered fireball would be priced as a 5th level spell, not 3rd like it normally would.

For example, a staff with just disintegrate (6th level spell) would have a market price of 52,800 gp, and would cost 26,400 gp to craft.

Another example is a staff of fire has a market price of 18,950 gp. The factors going into its cost are Wall of Fire 8,533 gp (800 * 4 * 8 = 25,600 / 3 = 8,553), Fireball 7,200 gp (600 * 3 * 8 = 14,400 / 2 = 7,200), and Burning Hands 3200 gp (400 * 1 * 8 = 3,200) for a total of 18,933 gp (the writers must have increased the price by 17 gp since my number is off by that much). The cost to craft would be 9,475 gp.

This will probably be a 5th level spell. This for a multi target spell that would deal a maximum of 15d6 damage. If this is a wizard spell, then they would be able to cast it at level 9.

A Cone of Cold is a 5th level spell that does most of the things you want your new spell to do. Change it so it deals slashing damage instead of cold. It doesn't do bleed damage though, so you might want to bump up the spell to level 6 (requiring a 11th level caster).

Material component could be a normal slashing weapon. However, I think you aught to make it a focus instead. Require that it be a masterwork or magic weapon. Not just for my taste, but I think non magical weapons would be cheap and easy to carry for a 9th level adventurer (see bags of holding and handy haversacks). Just need to remember to collect 'spell components' after battle. So consuming the non magical weapon during spell casting would be only good for flavor as they don't really cost anything meaningful at that level.

Maybe the bleed damage for using a magic weapon as focus could inflict the enhancement bonus as the amount of bleed damage the targets take. So a +1 sword would inflict 1 bleed damage while a +5 would inflict 5 bleed damage. This would give incentive to upgrade your focus. Using a crit multiplier instead would make the focus cost 2300 gp (magic + masterwork) + x gp for the non magical non masterwork component. A dagger would cost 1 gp for x2 multiplier, a battle axe would cost 10 gp for a x3 multiplier, and a scythe would cost 18 gp for a x4 multiplier (to list common weapons).

What class? I'm guessing Bladebound Magus (its one of the search results on AoN).

When I hear tech arrows, I think of those explosive arrows Turok Dinosaur hunter had.

or use a wand instead

Can't. They need a command word to use.

https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=367

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

*emphasis mine*

I don't know about that. Bards can't use the silent spell metamagic feat. Every Bard spell must have a verbal component. What are the rules for trying to use a scroll that is using a metamagic feat the spellcaster can't use?

If I had to make a ruling, I would say that the Bard can't use those kinds of scrolls. Must have a verbal component.

I was going to suggest keep a wand or two for an emergency, but you need command words to use wands (like many magic items) which wouldn't work in a silence effect. I think you're going to have to resort to use weapons while silenced.

Ahh. Misunderstandings happen. Thanks for clearing things up.

Paladin knows use magic device? * shrugs * Makes sense.

So where do the points come from? I could be mistaken, but its looking like you buy classes using the same point pool as ability scores. It seems odd that martials and 1/4 bab casters cost 22, and full casters cost 15? Why does full casters show up twice (most full casters have 1/4 bab)?

I think you should double check the shield spell. It has a range of personal, which means you can only cast it on your self. I don't think wands allow you to bypass that restriction.

Do you have a problem with doing math? I'm checking because I thought by giving you multiple examples, it would clear things up. I was thinking you would be able to do the math on your own at some point.

A maximized (+3) empowered (+2) fireball (3) would be an 8th level spell. Wands can only be for spells 4th level or lower. Even if it were possible, you would need the caster level to be 15 to cast the spell (9 would be too low). It would be 90k for such a wand (assuming it was even possible).

You seem to be having trouble with the math. Maybe giving you a bunch of examples will help. Unless otherwise noted, I'm assuming a wizard is the one crafting the wands.

The cost for a wand with a 2nd level spell at minimal caster level is:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 3 (CL) = 4500 gp.

Note that some spellcasters get their spells a little later. The sorcerer for instance gets 2nd level spells at class level 4. So the minimum caster level for them is 4:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 4 (CL) = 6000 gp.

If you wanted to increase the caster level to 6, then:
750 gp * 2 (SL) * 6 (CL) = 9000 gp.

If you wanted to add empower to a 2nd level spell, then it would increase its spell level and will raise the minimum caster level to 7:
750 gp * 4 (SL) * 7 (CL) = 21000 gp.

If you wanted a 4th level spell to cast at caster level 20:
750 gp * 4 (SL) * 20 (CL) = 60000 gp.

Yeah, it might be easier to craft with this feat. However, I don't know of many magic items that have other prerequisites though.