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The class is from a game called Nethack? It seems I missed that on my first read through.

Still, I think the spell casting part of the class seems needlessly complicated. Not everything translates well when converting stuff between different game systems, so you might want to make some changes if you want it to be a good option for players.


I don't think age is something that should come up in a pathfinder game. I would think that most characters would retire before they got too old. A -6 modifier to all physical ability scores should be a sign that your adventuring days are over.


I'm not sure what role this class is supposed to fill in an adventure group and what role they fill in the world. I can read the fighter and wizard class and learn about where they fit, but I don't have any the same details about this class.

I would put each class into their own thread. This class is already wall of texty. I'd hate to shuffle through several walls of text when talking about multiple classes.

I'm finding this class's ability to cast spells to be a bit odd. I would have copied a spell chart from another class instead of inventing a new one. I'm thinking the magus cause your class is a prepared spell caster. If you wanted worse, you could go paladin/ranger spell chart.

I don't think limited cantrips per day is good. I would have done what the other classes did and let the class have unlimited cantrips.

I'm not sure what the difference is between a wizard's spellbook and this class's spell journal. Do they pay for the cost of special ink to scribe spells into their spellbook? And did I read it right when their notes are sloppy so they suffer a chance for their spells to fail when cast?

Removing spellcraft and using forgery and linguist skills instead seems like a bad design decision.

Overall, it feels like spell casting bit is not good. Overly complicated and prone to failure.


I agree that making a new post is a good idea. Its all but certain that none of the people in this thread before the necro would still be here. They last posted 5-7 years ago. Its unlikely that you would get a reply from any of them.


Focused spell increases your effective caster level, not the spell level of a spell. If used on summon monster 1 when you have a caster level of 2, you would summon a monster that would stick around for 6 turns (2 + 4) instead of the normal 2. It would not summon a more powerful monster.

Summon monster 1 and 5 are different spells. Even if you used the heighten spell feat to increase the effective spell level, summon monster 1 would still summon the same kind of monsters as any other summon monster 1 spell.

FYI, heighten spell is normally used to increase the DC of a spell by increasing the spell level; it does not change the effects of a spell. A fireball spell heightened to spell level 7 would still deal a max of 10d6 fire damage.


I'm not seeing anything beyond the core rules on AoN.

Craft Magic Items

If you have the book, you could try looking on p. 73 of tome and blood (DND 3.0e).


There is 2 ways to price magic items. One is to use Table 15–29 (Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values). It is good for getting a close estimate for magic items that have one of the listed effects on the table. The other way is to compare magic items. Similar magic items should have similar prices, better magic items should cost more and weaker magic items should cost less.

There are more detailed rules in the books, but I don't have them indexed unfortunately. I'll go look for them.


I think there are 3 types of spellcasting, with the 3rd being hybrid spell casting. Its used by Arcanists. Its a combination of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting, allowing you to spontaneously cast known spells like a sorcerer, but able to change the known spells daily kinda like a wizard.

Or quickly with the quick study exploit. I wonder why its even an option since I consider it a must have. It should be free like a standard class feature.

I think hybrid spell casting would count as spontaneous spell casting for matters regarding pearls of power and runestones of power.

In regards to the spell mentioned in the op, channel the gift, it appears it would have diminished effect on spontaneous and hybrid spellcasters. The spell's purpose is to provide another spellcaster with a free spell. Its most potent for prepared spellcasters as it allows the target to cast one of their prepared spells without actually using it up, duplicating the effects of spontaneous spell casting. Spontaneous spell casters would get a free spell slot cause they already cast spells spontaneously. A prepared spell caster can targeting themselves and get spontaneous like spell casting, but a spontaneous spellcaster targeting themselves would have no effect because they already spontaneously cast spells.


I've considered making a magic spellbook that is enchanted with this spell, but I don't know if its worth the cost. I think this spell is best used by spell casters that are mid to high level as they can spare the low level spell slots.


I remembered another one. Its a feat that a member of the Loremaster prestige class can take. Its arguable the best version of being able to cast other classes spells. You can take the feat as many times as you want.

Secret of Magical Discipline


I'm under the impression that you will need to recast the spell every time you try to send your spellbook to some place safe (as described in the spell).


I made a mistake. I thought that spell keening was much better than spell study. It turns out that the skald progresses spellcasting wise as a bard, so they get spell levels at later class levels than a wizard and cap out at 6th level spells. This limits the spells that spell keening can cast.

The spell sage is a wizard archetype that gets the spell study ability. While expensive (it requires 2 spell slots and a full round action per spell level), spell study can be used to cast spells from the bard, cleric, and druid spell lists. Works a few times per day.

Focused spells is awesome as well (also from spell sage wizard). You get a +4 caster level to any spell you cast a few times per day. Has a lot of oomph at first level (imagine casting a cl 5 burning hands as a 1st level wizard), but still good at later levels.


I missed that. The skald casts spells like a bard, so they progress slower spellcasting wise than the wizard, and get less spell levels.

I double checked the class I noticed that the skald don't get access to druid spells. I thought that skalds used druid spell at first glance, but it turns out to be bard spells. So they get 1 spell list less than the spell sage.


Spell Keening from the Skald. Who wouldn't want to be able to spontaneously cast spells from the wizard's spell list as though they knew the spells (also bard and cleric spell lists, but the sorcerer/wizards spell list has more ompth)? Works only a few times per day.

Arcane Apotheosis from the sorcerer arcane bloodline. Its secondary ability allows you to power magic items that uses charges with your own spell slots. This can reduce the number of charges needed to 0 and costs only 3 levels of spell per charge. This can power spells that would normally spell slots that are 4 or higher, and this includes metamagic enhanced spells. The downside is you need wands and staves to use this ability, and you don't get this ability until level 20.


I want to know what classes and archetypes can cast spells of other class spell lists. The base Skald gets spell keening, and the spell sage Wizard archetype gets spell study. Those abilities allow the spell caster to, for a few times a day, cast spells from other class's spell lists. However, I think the spell sage gets ripped off as their ability is expensive when compared to the Skald's ability. I want to know who else can do this so I can compare these abilities.

FYI, spell keening verses spell study.

Spell Keening: For a few times a day, the skald can spontaneously cast spells on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list. This costs 1 spell slot and has a minimum casting time of 1 full round action.

Spell Study: For a few times a day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast spells on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list. This costs 2 spell slots and has a minimum casting time of 1 full round action per spell level. If the spell's casting time is longer than 1 full round action, this minimum casting time is added to the required spell casting time.


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Its not directly what you were asking about, but I thought you might want to know about related house rules.

I think there are too many item creation feats. To cut down on them, I've made 2 feats: Craft Magic Consumables, and Craft Permanent Magic Items.

Consumables are magic items that have limited uses or are hard to recharge. It covers scrolls, potions, wands, staves, and a number of miscellaneous items with finite uses. Most of them are cheap items that are priced at the bare minimum needed to store and cast spells. Only spellcasters can take this feat.

Craft Permanent Magic Items are for lasting magic items. It covers wondrous magic items, magic arms and armor, rings, and rods. They are much more expensive, so there is more leeway for mistakes and errors. Consequentially, any character can take this feat. Non spell casters can use craft or profession skills to craft instead of spellcraft. As an added perk, non spell casters can also craft items along side the spell casters instead of bugging them if they can go adventure yet.


The spell will only be giving the target a feat. I want a spell that gives me and my friends feats. My interest in paragon surge was the fact it give you a feat.

I don't want to be restricted to one feat per day. I'm considering the material component cost to counter the ability to get multiple feats per day.


I think the spell should be 3rd level (like paragon surge).

The school will be enchantment.

I'll add a material component cost of 150 gp per casting. I considered 250 gp, but stoneskin has that and its a 4th level spell, so I reduced it a little.

I'm limiting a target to only 1 instance of the spell at a time. Casting the spell again on the same target will have all prior instances of the spell being suppressed by the latest casting.

I'm considering limiting the spell to just combat feats. Hopefully that would limit chances for abuse.


I thought this thread was going to be about 2 archmages trying to attack each other with spells but failing to do any real harm because of high spell resistances.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Choosing an item creation feat would also be pointless as the spell only last 1 minute per level. I don’t know any item creation feats that allow you to create a magic item in 20 minute or less. The only exception might be an alchemist with swift alchemy but they can already get brew potion.

I'm aware of a trick that lets the caster to make the paragon surge last 24 hours. Something about a sorcerer bloodline and a magic ring that are able to make transmutation spells last longer. With that, you then can pick item creation feats when you cast the spell so you don't need to waste your normal feats to be able to craft magic items. Perhaps I should have mentioned it earlier. I must have assumed everyone has heard of it. I was already trying to protect against it when I when I brought it up.

The enchantment school does sound like a better pick for the new spell's school.


I'm mainly interested in the bonus feat.

Some alterations I've been considering:
-Only 1 instance of this spell can be in effect on a creature at a time. Each time the spell is recast on the target, it suppresses the previous instance.
-Also, the feat granted by this spell can't be an item creation feat.
-I might also add a material component cost so the caster isn't encouraged to spam this spell.


Is Paragon Surge OP? I have a character who is an elf but would want this spell. I'm considering having that character do spell research to create a different version of that spell so it can work on elves. I'm wondering if I should make other changes.

https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Paragon%20Surge


I don't think crafting mastery was ever meant to unlock mythic crafter. I don't have anything to back up this claim though, aside from that same feeling you'd probably had before asking this question.

Then again (after looking into it more), most magic item creation feats belongs to a group of feats called (item creation). Brew potion, craft wands, and even inscribe magical tattoo has that label. Mythic crafter however is a (mythic) feat.

https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brew%20Potion

https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mythic%20Crafter

Odd. AoN doesn't keep the (mythic) label for mythic feats. It has them for item creation. Maybe it just assumes it was implied or something.

Also, mythic crafter isn't on the page for item creation feats.
https://www.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?Category=Item%20Creation


Like a ring of 3 wishes, but without the limit on charges?

It would be a potent magical item. You could cast an unlimited number of spells. It could mimic any spell 8th level or lower from your spell list, or any spell 7th or lower from any spell list. Such spells would have their DCs set as though they were 9th level spells (but limited by only having the minimum DC possible as normal for most magic items), and at caster level 20. On top of that, it could do things that only the wish spell could do such as add inherent bonuses to your ability scores.


Bracers of armor are not idea. For bonuses of +1 to +4, you'd be better off with mage armor. Its cheaper and more effective to buy the Wizard a pearl of power 1.

For bonuses of +5 to +8, bracers of armor would be arguably more expensive than normal magic armor. It starts at the cost of a +5 armor and grows from there. Not only that, but if you want some special ability, you need to reduce the maximum armor bonus by that amount because bracers of armor can't exceed a modified bonus of +8. It also can't get bonuses that offer a flat gp increase.


I don't know why there is no metamagic still spell rod either. I figure that the reason might be because you had to move the rods to activate them, which defeats the purpose of still spell metamagic. However, in this case, still spell is not being used to remain completely still, it is to avoid arcane spell failure.

The drawbacks for arcane armor training feats is it takes 4 feats to get the 20% ASF perk, and you have to spend a swift action each turn to use it. It makes it difficult to use quicken spell later.


While I'm thinking about it, are there any spells that are better versions of mage armor, or a shield spell that last longer than minutes per level? I tried looking but I couldn't find any.

Celestial armor gives you an armor bonus of 9 (or 11 if you upgrade) vs a mage armor with an armor bonus of 4. Bracers of armor can get expensive.


@Mysterious Stranger

Seeing the stat differences between celestial armor and mithral breastplate is what got me curious if there were options for designing your own armor. I suppose this question should have been directed at Wizards of the Coast 20 odd some years ago since the armor was written by them around then.

@Azothath

I think I figured most of the equipment and spells you've mentioned. I'm guessing spellcaster's (quickdraw) shield is a quickdraw shield with the enhancements of spellcaster's shield.

Am I correct in assuming when you say "plus enhancements", it is for adding whatever armor enhancements I want.


I'm looking for good armor tips to negate armor check penalties, increase max dex cap, reduce arcane spell failure, etc. I'm trying to figure out ways to get a good AC while reducing the burden of wearing armor.

I favor full arcane spellcasters, but I may want to try classes that can use light armor such as a bard or gunslinger.

Thanks in advance.


Dang. I forgot to start with yes you can.

Yes you can use spell study to provide the spell requirements of magic items when crafting. It doesn't matter if you provide the spells, other spell casters provide the spells, or you use magic items to provide the spells. To that end, spell study can be used to cast spells, so I think spell study can provide the spells needed to craft magic items.


You need to be able to cast all the spells a magic item requires for every day the item is being crafted. This requirement can be met using any combination of your spells, spells from other spell casters, and spells from magic items.

When crafting magic items that cast spells (for instance scrolls, potions, wands, and staves), you need to be able to cast the spell(s) in question. This spell requirement can't be skipped for these kinds of magic item.

When it comes to other magic items, you can skip a requirement (even individual spells) by increasing the DC by 5. Magic item creation feats are the exception, you must have them.

https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Magic%20Item%20Descriptions&Cate gory=Magic%20Items

Under requirements:

Quote:

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Magic%20Item%20Creation&Category =Magic%20Items

Quote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.


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I wouldn't allow it. Its too big of an upgrade. At least not without some cost.

DND 3.0 had a book called Savage Species which covers PCs being monsters. It provided many options, such as starting at level 1 and advancing as a class, or magically changing species.


To further add, I don't think glow is defined as a light source. I'm not sure if you can see something that is glowing in the dark. Mild, intense, whatever. At least thats my RAW interpretation. I'd rather house rule that the spell had no visual glow effect than be something that breaks invisibility.

This might be a case where the fluff interferes with the function of the spell.


I will say they would be invisible. Nothing in the spell's description says that the field can't itself become invisible.

Faerie Fire is an exception. It is designed to counter invisibility and other hidden things. Invisibility can't hide light, but it can hide light sources. I'm on the edge with Entropic Shield having a visible field though, but the spell doesn't mention it is a light source.

Also note that if the field was visible, the target of the spell would still be invisible. There would still be a 50% miss chance. The field would only reveal what square the character was in, so there would be no guessing where they were.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Omnimage- I am not disputing your costings as per the rules at all.

But... I guess this is the reason most magic items are almost never purchased or crafted by PCs.

It is easy to get twice the power out of half the 180,000 GPs you cost the item at.

Taking off 20% because you have no control over what you get seems, well stingy. And you don't give anything off because of its drawbacks'

I'm not really sure what you are saying here.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Taking off 20% because you have no control over what you get seems, well stingy. And you don't give anything off because of its drawbacks'

I'm not quite sure if taking 20% off because you can't control its effect was the best idea. I'd could probably find a better reason for a cost reduction.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:
It is easy to get twice the power out of half the 180,000 GPs you cost the item at.

I take it you are saying that you could much more mileage by crafting it instead of just finding it during an adventure? Yeah thats true, but crafting 2 180,000 gp items will normally take a year (craft time of 180 days x 2). Time might be limited depending on the campaign.


If you are looking for different types of spell casters, you could look up the Warlock from DND 3.5.

https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCarc/warlock.html

They had an eldritch blast ability that could blast things for 1d6 damage, and could be used an unlimited number of times per day. They also got invocations which were basically unlimited use per day spells. Some invocations could improve the effects of the eldritch blast.


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Melkiador wrote:
OmniMage wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
It would be cool if every character(regardless of race) got 1 free weapon prof. at level one.
I like that one. Maybe I'd use it to give my wizard elf prof with the elven curve blade. ;p
It's a fun idea, but it sounds like almost no one would ever use anything other than an exotic weapon. So, it shouldn't be a default rule, but it really would be a fun variant rule.

It was kind of a joke. As an elf, I would get proficiency in the longsword, rapier, shortbow, and longbow. And I could treat the elven curve blade as a martial weapon. As a wizard, that was good for weapons. If I was more serious about weapon choices, I might have picked the morningstar over the curve blade. As a weapon, it deals more damage than a quarterstaff, and deals damage as blunt and piercing simultaneously.

Or I could pick the feat simple weapon proficiency to cover all simple weapons. Then I could use that freebie weapon proficiency to get some other weapon.


Dragon78 wrote:
It would be cool if every character(regardless of race) got 1 free weapon prof. at level one.

I like that one. Maybe I'd use it to give my wizard elf prof with the elven curve blade. ;p


Pizza Lord wrote:
I don't understand your using 1,500 instead of the 1,000 multiplier for spell pages. You say that's what spell pages use, but I can see that they use spell level squared x 1,000.

You're right... It seems that I got my magic items mixed up.


Acid splash and ray of frost are close range spells (25 ft + 5ft/2 levels). They're not likely to hit anything that the melee characters can't reach.


I also think a d3 is appropriate. Same damage as most other attack cantrips.


I would do a little bit of both. I would raise the dice to a d6, then add more as you level up.


Eagle Cape
Feather fall - at will: 2000 gp
Beast shape 1 (eagle only) - 1/day: 6000 gp
+5 bonus on perception (in eagle form only): 2500 gp

In addition to that, it gives a fly speed of 80 when using beast shape 1, which is normally limited to fly 30. I would be tempted to raise the price because of that. I would lower the price of the skill bonus because its limitations.

Total: 10500 gp.

However, its priced at 7000 gp, so maybe the designer thought the item a lower price to be worth buying.


Featherscale Cloak is a bit odd. Feather fall and hide from animals are both level 1 spells, so each are worth 400 gp. A +5 bonus to swim is worth 2500 gp (5*5*100 gp). Beast shape is a lv3 spell, so casting it once per day is worth 6000 gp, which is more the magic item is priced as. The total would be 9300 gp. The designer must have lowered the price, possibly because you can only take the shape of a bird or fish.

I'm not sure if I should raise the prices for the level 1 spells because the item has a CL of 5. Each of them would then be worth 2000 gp each. The total then would be 12500 gp, so I'm pretty sure the designer lowered the price by more than a third. Must have thought they would buy something else than the item at that price.


The Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (not hedgemage) totals to 2800 gp. Its listed as 2500 gp, so it must have been reduced.

It has 2 lv1 spells that can be used once per day, so each are worth 400 gp. It also has 2 cantrips can be used at-will, each are worth 1000 gp.

My math is for the level 1 spells is:
spell level * caster level * 2000 gp * charges per day (1 / 5).
So 1*1*2000/5/1 = 400 gp

My math is for the level 0 spells is:
spell level * caster level * 2000 gp * unlimited charges per day (1).
So 0.5*1*2000*1 = 1000 gp

So 1000 + 1000 + 400 + 400 is 2800 gp.
... maybe it'd cost less if I used command word instead of continious or use activated... redid math and I get 2520 gp.


There is a bit of a learning curve. Yes, it is annoying that many magic items don't usually show the math of how their prices were determined.

The first rule is these are estimates. Don't expect them to be always right. Especially when the items mimic spells. Some spells are more valuable than others, and should be worth more or less based upon that. Effects, on the other hand, I try to follow more strictly.

Lets look at staves. The most expensive spell is at 100% price, the second is at 75%, and any later is 50%. You should keep in mind that no matter how many spells you add to a staff, you will only be able to cast 1 spell per turn (assuming all spells take a standard action to cast).

Lets look at the belt of physical perfection and headband of mental superiority. These add a +2, +4, or +6 bonus to 3 ability stats at the same time. Because of this, they are more expensive. A +2 enhancement bonus to a single ability score is 4000 gp, but adding another is 6000 gp (50% more), and adding a third is another 6000 gp. So you get bonuses to 3 ability scores for 4x the price.

In dnd 3.5, adding abilities to the wrong slot would increase the price by 50%. So eye glasses of giant's strength would be worth 50% more than a belt of giant strength. This was the result of the wrong result item needing to work harder to get the same effect.

Slotless items cost 2x as much, but don't take up slots. Ioun stones are good examples of this. If you were to apply any of them to a slotted item, you should cut the price in half.

Baba Yaga (a CR 30 boss) uses the slotless rule to wear an extra rings.

I don't agree on the pricing method for upgrading magic items. The book rules say that the cost of adding a new ability to an existing magic it is 1.5 the price of the new ability. This can lead to a player spending more than what the item is worth. This can dissuade players from trying to upgrade magic items.

Instead, I prefer the price to upgrade be the difference between the old item and the new one.

This is a bit much to spit out at once. If you still have questions, I'll try to answer them later.


I estimate the item to be worth 180000 gp. Let me break down the math.

Replaced spells: 2000 gp. I'm not really sure how to price this, so I'll give it a small price.

Spells: 9*9*1500 gp = 121,500 gp. 8*8*1500 gp = 96,000 gp. I'm skipping levels 1 to 7. 121,500 + 96,000 = 217,500 gp. I'm using 1500 as base instead of 1000 because that's the number pages of spell knowledge use.

Feat: 5000 gp.

Total: 2000 gp + 217,500 gp + 5000 gp = 224,500 gp. Give it a 20% discount since you can't really control what spells/feats you get at a time = 179,600 gp. I'll round it up to 180,000 gp.


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Rule 0 is everyone should have fun. At least thats my rule.


The more I think about it, the more this feels like a scaling magic item. Because the effects that add spells do not add all of them at 1st level. You will have to have the ability to cast 9th level spells (so around caster level 17) to get the most out of this item.


I'm not sure where to begin. This is a complex magic item.

First off, who is the intended user for this item? Its not as powerful if its a Paladin grabs it instead of a Wizard.

Part 1 seems to replace spells. This part doesn't rely on luck.
-Replace Summon Monster spells with Summon Nature's Ally spells.
-Replace polymorph spells with Fey Form spells.

Now the next part. You flip a coin and get one of 2 effects.

If heads, you roll a d6 and the result will give you a bundle of 9 spells, 1 for each spell level. Lasts for a day.

If tails, you get the Fey Obedience feat. You get a random deity, and must do a ritual to gain powers. There are 9 fey deities, so I'd handle this by rolling a d10. The 10th result I'd let the player choose which deity they get. Lasts for a day.

Quote:
Then ioun stones that grant a feat are 8,000-10,000 gp

Ioun stones are slotless items, so their prices are doubled. Feats are worth about 5000 gp.

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