OmniMage's page

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If its going to be a one use item, maybe you'll be fine with not bothering to give it a price. Are the PCs going to buy it, or are they going to get it as treasure? If its is only going to be treasure, then it maybe doesn't need a price. Insert the item whenever the story makes sense.

When I try to make a new or unique effect for magic items, that no existing spell does, I try to imagine what the magic item would be like if it was a spell. Then I try to compare it to spells to determine spell level. After I determine spell level, it becomes easier to figure out a price. Then I determine what kind of magic item it'll be. For instance, A 2nd level spell in potion form is 300 gp because 2 (spell level) * 3 (caster level) * 50 gp (base rate for potions) is 300 gp. If it was in wand form, the base rate would be 750 gp, so the item would cost 4500 gp. If it was a use activated or continuous effect, then the base rate would be 2000 gp, so the item would be 12,000 gp. Because I've determined the spell level, I also know the minimum caster level required, so thats 2 factors covered, then the item type is the 3rd and at that point you are almost finished.

So with this spell, I tried to start with a 2nd level spell because the template raises the CR of the creature by 1. I'm not looking for a big change. Alter Self is a 2nd level spell that turns you into another humanoid, but the perks are limited to what humanoid races could get. It seems weaker than a spell that would turn you into a force creature. Going to 3rd level and you get beast shape 1 and gaseous form. Beast shape 1 is pretty mundane, but gaseous form is not, so it might be within the ball park. At 4th level, you get elemental body 1, which turns your body into a supernatural creature. The fact that small elementals are CR 1 helps as it puts in the range of a CR +1 template. So 4 (spell level) * 7 (caster level) * 50 gp (potions) is 1400 gp.

Of course you could decide I pushed the spell level too far and instead settle with a 3rd level spell. That would change the price to 750 gp, which is close to where you wanted to be at the start. Alternatively, you could opt for a weaker effect, so you could justify pushing the spell down a level.

Something to consider is that many of the spells I mentioned have a duration of 1 minute per caster level, so a 3rd level spell is going to last for at least 5 minutes. Would this be a problem for you? You wanted an effect that would last for 1 minute.

*TL;DR - I hope I didn't lose you with a lot of text

deuxhero wrote:
Still worth noting any explicit methods in PF. Waterproof spell (Element Master's Handbook) waterproofs a creature and all belongings or an object of 10 pounds a level for 24 hours (Sadly and bizarrely not valid for permanency. Boo!).

Why should that be a problem? How about you have your character research a way to make it happen.

Permanent spells require a caster level equal to 8 + spell level and cost 2500 gp * spell level. 0 level spells function as level 1 spells.

Oh, right. You want the spell "touch of mercy" for scabbards. My mind must be out to lunch...

2 (spell level) * 3 (caster level) * 1800 gp (command word) * 2 (slotless) / 5 (charges per day) = 4320 gp per charge. Remember, if you want 5 or more charges, you might as well do away with the charged aspect. 5 charges cost the same as unlimited charges.

The problem with this magic item is that, touch of mercy, last rounds. You might want to go with the merciful weapon spell because its duration would be measured in 10 min/level.

I thought it out some more. 12,000 gp for single glove that bestows the powers of +1 merciful weapon. I forgot to mention the glove part. If it was slotless, it would have to be worth 100% more, not 50% more.

If you wish to make a scabbard that bestows merciful weapon several times a day, then I would model it after the keen version. You probably want to make a merciful version of the keen edge spell. I don't see anything wrong with taking the keen edge spell, crossing out the keen edge bits, and putting merciful weapon in its place. Its replacing a +1 weapon effect with another. Its lazy, but sometimes lazy works.

There is a section for spellbooks on p. 139 of Complete Arcane (DND 3.5). Its about 4 pages. It covers making spellbooks out of tougher materials and adding magic to protect them.

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I was looking through the FAQ and stumbled across the spell fabricate. It mentions raw materials. "Raw materials" not "raw material". I think this shows that the "raw material" you see in the book is merely a typo.

I did some thinking on your problem. I would allow you to make magic items that bestow the qualities of a +1 Merciful magic weapon on any weapon. I'm pricing it at 12,000 gp, 50% more than a +2 weapon, because its a magic item using an uncustomary space limitation (its an old DND 3.0 rule). It would only work on one magic item at a time.

Edit: Thinking about it more, I'm now second guessing myself. I might come back later with something else.

Wands are spell trigger items so you don't have to worry about attacks of opportunity or arcane spell failure. This makes wands more useful than scrolls in combat.

There is a wizard discovery called staff-like-wand, which allows you to use your own caster level instead of the caster level of the wand.

I do agree that potions are not usually worth the trouble. Too expensive. Scrolls are cheaper. Characters should be buffed before combat, so characters shouldn't need many potions.

I do agree that there are too many item creation feats. I do support reducing them to a more manageable number.

My current list is consumables (scrolls, potions, wands, and staves) and wondrous (wondrous, weapons/armor, rings, and rods).

If you are trying to combine the abilities of multiple types of magic items, then the resulting item should require those crafting feats. I this case, you are trying to combine a staff and a rod. The requirements should be the Craft Staff and Craft Rod feats. If you don't do this, then any spellcaster could reason that they don't ever need to select Craft Rod, using this case as an example of how to avoid it.

I would also enforce the +50% price increase to weaker abilities. This staff being designed requires only 1 hand to use, instead of 2 (1 for the staff, 1 for the rod). It also reduces the weight you have to carry around (a rod or staff weighs 5 pounds).

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Tacticslion wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
OmniMage wrote:
You want a spell that affects only 1 material, try stone shape.

Stone shape is a 4th level wizard spell. Fabricate? Again 4th level.

Stone shape is limited to a single piece of stone, Fabricate can affect and produce several pieces of the same material (like turning several gold ingots into gold bracelets).
Not exactly a great match for comparison.

Stone shape is a fourth level spell for sorcs/wizards, but third for other classes.

Fabricate is a fifth level spell across various class options.

... and then there is wood shape, which is a level 2 druid spell. These support the point that fabricate is a stronger spell.

Btw, thanks for the support Tacticslion. I had planed to make that defense, but thanks anyways.

Anyways, the stance I'm going with (if I haven't made myself clear enough) is that I think that the fabricate spell aught to be able to affect multiple materials at once. Doesn't matter what it technically says; it should be able to make finished items. What good is a spell leaves the job half finished?

I think limiting fabricate to a single material adds confusion. You have to figure out what things are made out of instead of handwaving it with 'crafting supplies'.

I also think it doesn't allow for the swift making of finished items (much of the time), which kinda undermines the point of using a spell to make things. You want a spell that affects only 1 material, try stone shape.

*Edit* It might form a good base for a new spell.

Maybe you should be asking about a spell that will preserve a whole town. While none exists as far as I know, there is a 2nd level cleric spell called Gentile Repose. Its preserves corpses, making them last longer for personal convenience and for the effects of spells.

I think the money making effects of this spell should be covered.

The cost of unpaid labor is 1 silver piece a day. If this spell can make hundreds or even thousands of servants for unskilled labor, then the caster is looking at 10s or even 100s of gold pieces a day.

Skilled labor yields half your skill check in gold pieces per week. The average check for skilled labor should be 15 (for a 1st level character), so 7.5 gold pieces per week. So this amounts to little more than 1 gold per day. This is about 10x more wealth than unskilled labor. You can take 10 on this skill, so this amount of income should be the rule unless something odd is going on.

Does the spell last longer than one day? How many servants per casting? These factors will determine how many servants will be around at a time.

The price for getting a spell cast is caster level * spell level * 10 gp. A 5th level spell will probably cost 450 gp. A 9th will be 1530 gp. I don't think that spell casters will get hired everyday to cast spells, so they won't be making that much every day. But if the caster can cast servant spells on their own terms, they could make income at their own convenience. Even unpaid labor will add up over time.

From what I recall, you need to make a craft check for anything that has a craft DC of 15 or more.

Item crafting isn't Pathfinder's strong point. They inherited a good system from DND 3.5, but then they made some changes while doing a not so good job explaining things.

Let me help you. The DC for crafting magic items is 5 + the caster level. A +5 magic sword would need a caster level of 15 (needs a caster level of 3 times the bonus), so it would have a crafting DC of 20. Trying to ignore the caster level prerequisite would raise the DC to 25. I consider it fair to keep the craft DC even though you are trying to ignore a prerequisite that made it high in the first place. I see it as trying to fake a high caster level instead of ignoring it.

thejeff wrote:
OmniMage wrote:

Actually this could weaken the party in a way. The prices for magic items grow exponentially while the benefits are linear. For the price of getting a +4 to ability score magic item, you could have got 4 +2 ability score magic items. 16,000 gp vs 4 * 4000 gp. This is not to say that having powerful magic items is bad, but instead you should save it for when its more efficient or practical.

What about players selling their magic items to get what they want crafted? Will this one player still charge 70% after the other players sold their magic items for 50%?

But that +4 to your main stat is often more effective than 3 more +2s. And whether you go for the single +4 or the 4 +2s, you're still getting them cheaper. (And the crafter gets more money to get his +4 sooner.)

I was thinking more on the lines of every party member having a +2 magic item instead of only one player having 4 +2 magic items or 1 +4 magic item. I'm sure they the other party members would be able to put their +2 magic item to good use.

Actually this could weaken the party in a way. The prices for magic items grow exponentially while the benefits are linear. For the price of getting a +4 to ability score magic item, you could have got 4 +2 ability score magic items. 16,000 gp vs 4 * 4000 gp. This is not to say that having powerful magic items is bad, but instead you should save it for when its more efficient or practical.

What about players selling their magic items to get what they want crafted? Will this one player still charge 70% after the other players sold their magic items for 50%?

Exactly what was needed. Thanks! (I was having trouble figuring out a few bits).

I think these spells mention whether or not they can counter, can dispel, or do anything else in their description. I'm not aware of any external rule that says otherwise.

Spells like slow and haste can be used to counter or dispel each other because they say so in their description. Darkness can be used to counter and dispel light spells of an equal level or lower. Non-magical light does not increase the light level in the area of a darkness spell, nor does any light spell unless it is a spell level that is greater than the darkness spell.

By the way, darkness is an evocation [darkness] spell. Continual Flame is a evocation [light] spell. Apparently this relationship was important enough to include a mention when declaring what school they belong to.

Adjoint wrote:
OmniMage wrote:
I can't find the creature you mentioned. Could you provide a link?
Pureblood Azlanti is one of the human ethnicities listed in the Inner Sea World Guide.

I must have failed a knowledge check then. ;)

In that case, yes and no. Polymorph any Object can turn you into a another race of humanoids, but it will not bestow higher stats (except maybe +2 size bonus to str). Also, a duration of permanent means that the spell is still active. It can be detected and dispelled. A duration of instantaneous would be more permanent, neither radiating magic nor being possible to dispel.

A question of my own. If you polymorph into something like an elf or orc, do you count as being a member of that race for the purposes of using magic items? I'm thinking no.

All this said, perhaps you should talk to your GM about researching a new spell. You might get something that better fits your needs.

I can't find the creature you mentioned. Could you provide a link?

As for permanency, it tends to cost 2500 gp per level of the spell, and requires a caster level of 8 + spell level. For purposes of these calculations, level 0 spells count as level 1 spells. So if you wanted to make an 8th level spell permanent, it would cost 20000 gp and would need to be cast by a level 16 spell caster.

You may need to do spell research to develop a method for rendering polymorph any object permanent. This spell does not exist on the list of spells for permanency.

I currently have no opinion on this transformation. I don't know the creature the party wishes to become, nor any other context.

The spells do not say that they restore writing. In fact, the mending spell does mention there are limits, such as warping or transmutation magic. So I'm inclined to believe that it will not restore writing, especially if you are trying to destroy written messages with magic.

I would like it if spells could restore magical writing. Such magic could be used to repair a Wizard's library if it was destroyed in a fire.

Maybe you could rule written words can be repaired by magic, but that explosive runes are an exception, that it can destroy writing in a manner that can't be repaired with magic.

Magic items can be pricey. I don't think that your level 3 PCs are going to be able to make anything fancy. Not yet at least. Level 3 PCs should have 3000 gp according to the wealth by level table. A simple magic item that gives +5 bonus to a given skill is 2500 gp (5 * 5 * 100 gp). Maybe you could make a +1 to skill magic item, which would be 100 gp.

Use activated magic items start at 2000 gp. 1 (spell level) * 1 (caster level) * 2000 gp = 2000 gp. You could try giving the items charges per day to reduce the cost. You could reduce the cost by a factor of 5, by giving them 1 charge per day, making them 400 gp. You could also further reduce the cost by making them command word instead of use activated (360 gp vs 400 gp).

The PCs will likely find that consumables are the only things they can afford to make.

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Well, you can upgrade magic items. Your cloak might still become a powerful magic item.

The rules state that new abilities cost 50% more when being added to existing items. I don't like that rule. My house rule is when you upgrade magic items, the cost is the difference between the new item and old item.

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More help.

3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level) * 1800 gp (command word) = 27000 gp

However, you will probably want to reduce the price a bit more. So lets give it 1 charge per day.

27000 gp / 5 = 5400 gp.

On the other hand, you might want to see what a continuous version will look like.

3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level) * 2000 gp (continuous) * 4 (duration) = 120000 gp

Because the spell displacement has a duration measured in rounds, you had to multiply by 4 at the end. Suffice to say, this has a major impact on the price.

I hope this gives you a better idea of how to use the rules.

The rules for item creation start on p. 548 of the core rulebook, and the chart is on p. 550.

According to the chart, a skill bonus would cost the bonus squared * 100 gp. AC bonus (deflection) is bonus squared * 2000 gp.

Adding multiple abilities to magic items cost extra. Increase the cost of the less expensive ability by 50%. So:
+5 stealth 2500 gp
+1 AC deflection 2000 gp
Would be 5500 gp.

Another example, a +10 stealth (10000 gp) +2 AC deflection (8000 gp) would be 22000 gp.

Since the magic item would only work in the dark, you might want to consider a discount of 10% to 30%. I would take 10% since you can choose to adventure at night or adventure in the underdark.

Magic item creation is light on the rules for special materials for magic item creation. No need to find wood from a tree struck by lightning or some other special material. You can fill in the fluff yourself if you care about such details.

You need the skill spellcraft to make magic items. You could use craft skills instead if you prefer. You also need the appropriate item creation feat like craft wondrous items. The spellcraft DC is 5 + the caster level of the item.

You can take on 10 spellcraft rolls to make magic items.

You may want to use a higher caster level for some magic items. Caster levels can improve the resistances for magic items. Useful to prevent damage, being turned off, or suffer some other effect.

You might want to reconsider the price reduction for class restriction. Many view it as an advantage because it can easily work as a security feature.

Many children hear the tales of heroes growing up. Some of them become heroes themselves, inspired by deeds and accomplishments of their idols.

Some people go on adventures to gain fame, wealth, and power.

Some people are prophesied to be heroes or adventurers, so they adventure to fulfill those destinies.

Some come from families of heroes. For example, there can be a family of vampire slayers, or hunters of werewolves.

I would try one of the guides for the Wizard. I think they rate spells.

I don't think it needs to be complicated. Just make it like a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Helm of Opposite Alignment

Just replace change of alignment with a dominate person spell (or whatever effect you want). I don't think it needs much else than that. OK maybe the victim might need to read the book first. Maybe it compels the reader to finish reading the book before they go mad. The first save compels the reading and the second save causes the madness. The second save is triggered by reading the whole book.

So the hoarding starts at first level? So will they will also collect potions and wands in the same manner?

Next question: how many scrolls do you carry? With the use of a handy haversack or bag of holding, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you can carry hundreds of scrolls with no problem. What about how many scrolls you carry before you get magic bags?

I don't think spell mastery is a good feat. I think it gives you mastery over too few spells. You might be without a spell book once or maybe twice in a campaign. So the feat comes into play only rarely. Too few to be worth it in my books.

Might I suggest a different feat? Its called "Preferred Spell" and can be found in the Advanced Player's Guide. You pick a spell and gain the ability to spontaneously cast that spell. You can sacrifice a prepared spell to cast your preferred spell. It can even do other things like apply metamagic feats without additional casting time (a sorcerer normally needs to take extra time to do so).

Having something that makes scrying easier is a valuable asset. It could have been a lot of work to acquire those bits of hair. Having a spell that could simply destroy such items might be unfair, all things considered. I'm thinking that maybe a spell that destroys such stuff anywhere and everywhere should have expensive material component cost.

It is my understanding that adding multiple spells to a scroll only makes the scroll bigger.


Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.

So about a page of paper per spell.

Thanks. I feel more enlightened now.

Where do you keep scrolls and what are the downsides? I'm under the impression that a wizard will gain a lot of scrolls as they adventure and gain levels. Maybe plenty of potions and wands too. I'm sort of imaging a wizard with straps of belts and pockets, trying to stuff as many scrolls on themself as realistically (and maybe comically) possible.

Currently my best idea is to use a handy haversack. Reach in a side pocket for a scroll and the haversack will provide the one you are looking for. However, there are character levels before such a wondrous item is affordable. So I would like to know alternatives.

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I view questionnaires as a tool. Sometimes its the right tool for the job, sometimes its not. There is no one way to make a character.

A level 20 wizard could have the discovery Immortality. Such a wizard would have nothing but time on his hands. Dealing with the PCs or doing whatever with the MacGuffin doesn't have to happen this century or even millennium. Such a wizard could avoid fighting the PCs and yet still be in a position to win.

Edit: I suppose this doesn't help you fight such a wizard.

Pearl of Power

Basically, they renew spells that you have cast. If you have used mage armor on a monk, then you could use a pearl of power 1 to restore that spent spell, filling that slot with mage armor.

Sounds like you're changing the rules a lot. If you are changing the rules that much, then maybe you should model your spell casters after psionic rules. Use spell points to cast your spells instead of spell slots. That way, mana potions could restore x amount of spell points.

How about spell level squared * 100 gp? That would make it cost twice as much as a normal potion of its level.

Speaking of price... that would make it cost 1/10th the price of pearl of power. Would it be worth while to use such a potion instead of saving up for a pearl of power?

I would reserve some of the blame for Wizards of the Coast. They're the ones who designed 3rd edition. Paizo copied the book, made some mods, but kept most of the material.

*WotC made 3rd edition open source long ago, so anyone can release their own version. Don't try this with a rpg you don't know.

I remembered something. For prices, not every item is suitable for the slotless prices. The Pearls of Power are priced normally despite being slotless. I consider weapons to be slotless. Scrolls, potions, staves and many other item have their own rules for pricing.

I wish there was more information for magic item creation.

You have some flexibility with caster levels with magic items. You can use any caster level, so long as it is high enough to cast the spell in question. For instance, a Wizard making a magic item with a level 2 spell would need a minimum caster level of 3, because 3 is the level Wizards get 2nd level spells.

If you are making a magic item slotless, I would skip the step where you multiply the costs of other abilities by 1.5. Think of it this way. If you were to make multiple magic items, each with their own slot, there would be no price multiplier. If you moved them all to a single slot, there would be a price multiplier of x1.5 because you are freeing up the other slots for more magic items. If they don't use any slots, then you pay even more because they are not items that play the slot game.

Another way to think of it, think of slotless is the way things normally are. You are using slots for price reductions.

I would also skip the step where you restrict the item by class or alignment. They function more like security features than restrictions. It would be difficult for someone to steal them and then use them against you.

Wands don't suffer from arcane spell failure. Use them at your discretion.

Have you given the enemies any reason to go after you first? It sounds like you spend your time in combat buffing yourself instead of using your talents for offense. You aren't being much of threat. By that reasoning, your enemies should be going after the other characters then. Their efforts would be wasted on a foe that is doing nothing but being a hard target to hit.

I don't know if the OP is being serious or not. I also don't think its worth my time pointing out what I think is wrong with their world view. Bye.

I'm also finding the idea less interesting.

I decided to play with the idea of having an unsuited deity take the monotheist role. Right now I'm playing with Nethys taking that role, and being indifferent to the concerns of the people. This allowing multiple factions to exist that are hostile to each other and to others. Maybe I'll talk about it later after I have my fun thinking about it.

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I'd advice against using real world religions in a fantasy game. Some people can take religion too seriously.

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