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Since the goblin announcement thread has blown up (see what I did there?) over the issue of goblins being a core race, I think there needs to be a space to discuss some of the leaked mechanics about how ancestries work:
It includes the base goblin ability boosts (Dexterity and Charisma), ability flaw (Wisdom), bonus Hit Points (6), base speed (25 feet), and starting languages (Common and Goblin), as well as the rules for darkvision (an ability that lets goblins see in the dark just as well as they can see in normal light). Those are just the basics—the rules shared by all goblins. Beyond that, your goblin's unique ancestry allows you to choose one ability score other than Dexterity or Charisma to receive a boost. Perhaps you have some hobgoblin blood and have an additional boost to Constitution, or you descend from a long line of goblin alchemists and have a boost to Intelligence. You could even gain a boost in Wisdom to negate your flaw!
I like the "flex" ability score boost. Currently, when you choose to be a sorcerer, you rule out any race that doesn't allow you to get a bonus in Charisma. In PF2 when you choose a class, you don't rule out nearly as many. However, the ability score that an ancestry gets a flaw in does tend to rule out that being your class's main stat; but the ability to negate the flaw mitigates this.
Small characters now seem to default to having a base speed of 25'. I assume it's less realistic, but it is less crippling and less unfun than PF1's base speed of 20'.
It looks like we're using Starfinder's system of giving base hit points based off of race. I'm surprised that it's 6 points -- suggests that low-level characters in PF2 will tend to have even more hit points than in Starfinder? Personally I feel like the industry has been TOO lenient on low-level characters. But I suppose the new Death and Dying rules act to "even out" the lethality across all 20 levels.
Then you get into the goblin ancestry feats, which allow you to decide what type of goblin you want to play.
I think I like this. First, starting with the 1st Pathfinder playtest forward, Paizo has been trending toward giving you lists of options instead of dictating what you can do -- both for classes and for races. More options means more ability to customize your character, which will be the main appeal of PF2 over its main competitor, 5e. Second, in PF1, the boosts that a race gets tend to be forgotten as your more-powerful abilities are derived from your class and feats at higher and higher levels. I am concerned about how "artificial" it might feel to have abilities from your ancestry, which in theory is about your past, gated behind level-ups. Still, it does mean that your ancestry is relevant even as you level up, for you'll have access to abilities that no other ancestry has. It maintains the unique feel of each ancestry.
In sum, I'm optimistic about the proposed changes but would like to see more details before I decide how I feel about them. What do other people think?
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I think the flexible stat bonus is coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
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I think the flexible stat boost encourages more different class/ancestry combinations and is therefore good.
It's not like people didn't shop for the race with the best stat array for the classs they wanted to play in PF1 anyway- we can just admit that.
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Flexible stats are good. It’ll be nice to see a little more variety- elves as more than Int-based full casters, and dwarves as more than Wis-based divine casters.
Ancestry feats are great for customization, although I’m hoping you can spend general feats on them if you need a second thing faster.
25 ft. is the new base speed for humans too. Five squares instead of six.
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I like the "flex" ability score boost. Currently, when you choose to be a sorcerer, you rule out any race that doesn't allow you to get a bonus in Charisma. In PF2 when you choose a class, you don't rule out nearly as many. However, the ability score that an ancestry gets a flaw in does tend to rule out that being your class's main stat; but the ability to negate the flaw mitigates this.
It may even remove it completely. If point-buy is anything like Starfinder, stat-bonuses from race are not special or better than other bonuses.
Or we may not have point-buy in the conventional sense since they were talking about character generation following a more organic approach. In another thread I theorized it might be something like:
Ancestry: +2 to two fixed stats, -2 to one fixed stat, one floating +2 (can't add to the same stat as other +2s).
Background: +2 to two fixed stats, one floating +2 (can't add to the same stat as other +2s).
Class: +4 to one of a choice of two stats (Str and Dex for Fighter, Str and Cha for Paladin, etc.), two floating +2s (can't add to the same stat as each other or as the +4).
That's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like that.
Small characters now seem to default to having a base speed of 25'. I assume it's less realistic, but it is less crippling and less unfun than PF1's base speed of 20'.
Actually, in PF1 goblins have a speed of 30, and they've said that humans will have a speed of 25 in PF2, so we don't know how other Small speeds will work. This reduction is probably because you can triple move now, rather than just double.
It looks like we're using Starfinder's system of giving base hit points based off of race. I'm surprised that it's 6 points -- suggests that low-level characters in PF2 will tend to have even more hit points than in Starfinder? Personally I feel like the industry has been TOO lenient on low-level characters. But I suppose the new Death and Dying rules act to "even out" the lethality across all 20 levels.
They've also said classes just get max HP per level now (ie: 10 plus Con Mod per level for Fighter), and that humans get 8 Ancestry HP. No Stamina equivalent, though, so the total's still gonna be a fair bit south of Starfinder (a 10th level Con 14 Human Starfinder Soldier has an HP + Stm of 164, a 10th level PF2 Human Fighter with Con 14 has 128 HP).
I think I like this. First, starting with the 1st Pathfinder playtest forward, Paizo has been trending toward giving you lists of options instead of dictating what you can do -- both for classes and for races. More options means more ability to customize your character, which will be the main appeal of PF2 over its main competitor, 5e. Second, in PF1, the boosts that a race gets tend to be forgotten as your more-powerful abilities are derived from your class and feats at higher and higher levels. I am concerned about how "artificial" it might feel to have abilities from your ancestry, which in theory is about your past, gated behind level-ups. Still, it does mean that your ancestry is relevant even as you level up, for you'll have access to abilities that no other ancestry has. It maintains the unique feel of each ancestry.
Yeah, I'm definitely on board with Ancestry Feats, especially if some have Improved versions with a level cap (which is very possible).
In sum, I'm optimistic about the proposed changes but would like to see more details before I decide how I feel about them. What do other people think?
I'm a big fan so far, though I'd like to see more of how the system (and particularly Ability Score Generation) actually work.
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I like race ancestry feats idea in PF1 and love the idea of expansion in PF2. I especially like that ancestry levels with the character. No more level 1 set and forget. I do hope power ups are more related to class, and ancestry and backgrounds expand a character's flavor.
As for stats, i'm hopeful Paizo keeps the SF idea of boosts losing power as the stat gets higher. I heard that an unofficial cap is around 24-26 for stats, which I think will be perfect. I was concerned about the massive power boosts at levels 5,10,15 but now that boosting items are gone its not much of a worry.
I think ability stats are quickly becoming an under the hood thing and will no longer be an element of differentiation between races ancestries. Some will be annoyed by this, but i'm hoping ancestry feats will replace ability scores in ancestry differentiation.
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I think ability stats are quickly becoming an under the hood thing and will no longer be an element of differentiation betweenracesancestries. Some will be annoyed by this, but i'm hoping ancestry feats will replace ability scores in ancestry differentiation.
This is probably true for prime stats, but inevitably not for secondary ones. I mean, assuming +2s, every Goblin has Dex 12 and Cha 12 at a minimum, and assuming no selling down scores, only Wis penalty races have Wis 8.
Those requirements actually differentiate races a lot, IMO, they just don't restrict you from being good at any specific Class.
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As for stats, i'm hopeful Paizo keeps the SF idea of boosts losing power as the stat gets higher.
I believe they are keeping the concept. The Leveling Up Blog states:
You'll also amp up several of your ability scores every 5 levels. The process might be familiar to those of you who've been playing Starfinder for the last several months! There are, of course, a few tweaks, and we made all ability boosts work the same way instead of being different at 1st level. Learn it once, use it in perpetuity.
So if it's like Starfinder, a boost will be +2 if applied to a score of 16 or lower and +1 if applied to a score that's 17 or higher.
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I like the "flex" ability score boost. Currently, when you choose to be a sorcerer, you rule out any race that doesn't allow you to get a bonus in Charisma. In PF2 when you choose a class, you don't rule out nearly as many. However, the ability score that an ancestry gets a flaw in does tend to rule out that being your class's main stat; but the ability to negate the flaw mitigates this.It may even remove it completely. If point-buy is anything like Starfinder, stat-bonuses from race are not special or better than other bonuses.
Or we may not have point-buy in the conventional sense since they were talking about character generation following a more organic approach. In another thread I theorized it might be something like:
Ancestry: +2 to two fixed stats, -2 to one fixed stat, one floating +2 (can't add to the same stat as other +2s).
Background: +2 to two fixed stats, one floating +2 (can't add to the same stat as other +2s).
Class: +4 to one of a choice of two stats (Str and Dex for Fighter, Str and Cha for Paladin, etc.), two floating +2s (can't add to the same stat as each other or as the +4).That's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like that.
I *really* like a lot of the mechanics we're seeing for Ancestries. It all looks really cool.
The default method for generating ability scores is my big question about character creation right now. Lending credence to your speculation, DMW, is that Backgrounds will affect stats. Reposting from elsewhere:
FWIW, Jason and Stephen discuss PF2 Backgrounds in this presentation, starting at 43:00. It's a good overview. Some highlights.
Building your characters is following your ABCs: Pick your Ancestry, your Background, and your Class ... You pick your Ancestry, that's where you came from, that's how you were born; you pick your Background, which is how you grew up; and then you pick your Class, which is what you've trained to be.Stephen describes Backgrounds as a more-robust system that serves about the same function as PF1 traits. "We wanted something a little more robust and mostly, that Adventure Path people could play with." The Core Rulebook will present generic Backgrounds (e.g., old barkeep, ex-slave, "all sorts of stuff") but the goal is to allow AP writers to create Backgrounds that really fit into the world of the AP (much like the AP traits from PF1).
Stephen: The Background system "affects the skills that you're good at and it also your ability scores to a certain degree."
Jason adds that your Background gives you one Lore for free, which is a highly specific Knowledge skill. He gives as examples Lore (Alcohol) and Lore (Warfare) (which Valeros has).
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My main issues with the Ancestries as presented are as follows:
1) Ancestry Feats, and what do they do. Note that the Goblin blog talks only about: Ability Scores, Hit Points, Base Speed, Vision. What about a gobin's "Skilled" trait? Or a Dwarf's Stonecunning? A Gnome's Weapon Familiarity? Will all those be Skill Feats? Because if so, then depending on how many you get, and how fast you get them, you may end up with a Dwarf that's worse at being a Dwarf than P1 Dwarf.
2) In the same vein, if the bulk of an Ancestry's distinction is it's Feats, then quickly introducing PC Ancestries in Bestiaries is basically a no-go unless you're willing to cut quite a few monsters. This of course depends on how many Feats an Ancestry gets, but there's no denying it was way easier to do in PF1 when it was just another paragraph on the page.
Just from PF1 Bestiary 1, it added: Aasimar, Drow, Drow Noble, Duergar, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Merfolk, Orc, Svirfneblin, Tengu and Tiefling.
Now, some of them you could probably fold into an existing Ancestry (Drow into Elf, Duergar into Dwarf, Svirfneblin into Gnome), but the rest? I fear the added page count for the feats means we won't see this happening, but I could be wrong.
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I think the flexible stat bonus is coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
All it does it better enables any race to play any class. It's not coddling any more than humans getting floating bonuses. Which they will presumably get two of now instead of just one.
Bestiary does not equal a race ancestry guide. One thing we need to get used to is monsters being different than PCs. Meaning the bestiary can add all types of ancestries without having to detail the feats.
I dont like it either, but dems da breaks.
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Bestiary does not equal a
raceancestry guide. One thing we need to get used to is monsters being different than PCs. Meaning the bestiary can add all types of ancestries without having to detail the feats.I dont like it either, but dems da breaks.
I mean, sure, but it's a break with the paradigm, and a bad one IMO.
Before, adding a new race was a simple affair, now, it's more involved, which means it might take more time to get, which is sure to upset some people.
Furthermore, it throws a wrench into building NPCs of monster races though maybe not a big one, depending on how powerful and/or needed the Ancestry feats are.
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Personally, I would much rather each race have more options and more support, than have the proliferation of meaningless "player races" that comes from a "player race" only requiring four column inches of text.
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I think the flexible stat bonus is coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
I think humans are coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
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I think the flexible stat bonus is coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
That’s pretty harsh. And uncalled for. People don’t win or lose by choosing different races or ancestries, giving a floating bonus to all will hopefully mean the humans will no longer be the default beat race, and we will see more variety in builds.
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I think the flexible stat bonus is coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.I think humans are coddling and hand holding. Everyone's a winner.
How come humans never want to hold my hand?
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On a relevant note, I think the ancestry feats are a more fluid and logical way to bake alternate racial traits into the game. This way you don’t have all elves get bonus weapon profiencies, except mine. I just think you should get like three at 1st level? If they are as weak as the ones from the blog then that would probably be fair.
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I'm fine with it as a concept and as an option to allow more customization. I just want an ancestry to come with more than just the absolute bare bones of ability modifiers, hit points, speed and a single ability like darkvision.
I think I'd make the following changes, and will suggest as much when it comes up in playtest surveys:
- There should at least be a few locked-in distinguishing abilities per ancestry, not just one like Darkvision.
- If the idea is customization, then push customization more. Let us choose two ancestry feats at 1st level instead of only one.
- I notice the Goblin comes with languages (Common, Goblin). What? No. Part of the whole point of this exercise was supposed to be that they were separating "Ancestry" from "Culture," which would be part of a background. Language should come from background, not race. I wasn't born knowing English.
Can some one tell me where it has been confirmed that humans have a base speed of 25 feet? Are we sure that is not just an armor speed penelty on the fighter and cleric?
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I notice the Goblin comes with languages (Common, Goblin). What? No. Part of the whole point of this exercise was supposed to be that they were separating "Ancestry" from "Culture," which would be part of a background. Language should come from background, not race. I wasn't born knowing English.[/list]
I agree with this. It seems odd to make the ancestry/background distinction only to blur them again. Junk tinkerer in particular seems more cultural than biological.
I guess background is more like what you did before you became an adventurer as opposed to what culture you are from.
Can some one tell me where it has been confirmed that humans have a base speed of 25 feet? Are we sure that is not just an armor speed penelty on the fighter and cleric?
So far I have not heard or read about any character having a speed faster than this -- in fact, I do not recall any mention of any other speed. I think we need a specific mention of some character having some other speed before we can draw any conclusions.
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I argued a lot about Goblins, however I really like what I saw for the Ancestry mechanics so far. It breaks that bad habit to play « the right race » to the job, and allows more variety in character building and roleplay.
I like the fact that Ancestry is an important mechanical choice, but in a good way. The only feat I did not like was the one that gives bonus on fire damages because I don’t want every pyromancer to be Goblin. Just as I don’t want every hammer guy to be Dwarf or every bowman to be Elf.
But apart from that feat, it seems very nice and well thought.
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I am hoping for lots of ancestry feats for each ancestry. If they only have 10 ancestry feats for each ancestry then I will be very disappointed. I think that the way the are handling the ancestry feats can open up a lot of cool concepts.
Also hope there is some generalization with some of the ancestry stuff so I can play a Halfling half elf or a gnomish half-orc. I can see that being very easy to fit into the system that way it is.
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As far as Ancestry feats, I like the concept, but I feel like they aren't well balanced, seeing as "+2 to a stat" is listed as equivalent to "+1 fire damage".
Where do you see "equivalent"? That doesn't sound like anything I've seen. Ancestries get ability boosts and a flaw, and they also get ancestry feats—I haven't seen any suggestion that these are considered equivalent, much less that they are traded off against each other (i.e. that they're treated as mechanically equivalent). So you may not have cause for concern here?
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Also hope there is some generalization with some of the ancestry stuff so I can play a Halfling half elf or a gnomish half-orc. I can see that being very easy to fit into the system that way it is.
I'm sorry, but I hope the system doesnt support this.
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I'm sorry, but I hope the system doesnt support this.
Also hope there is some generalization with some of the ancestry stuff so I can play a Halfling half elf or a gnomish half-orc. I can see that being very easy to fit into the system that way it is.
I *think* I remember a Paizo person saying this wasn't planned. But I don't recall where so may be wrong. (I want to say Erik Mona in the Know Direction interview?)
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I may get bonked for saying this, but I kinda prefer 3.5's +2 to one attribute, -2 to one attribute system. As it is, I tone back point buy in PF games to offset the additional +2. (I like my level 1 players to feel like Average Joes.)
Yeah, you may need to tone down the character creation rules in general if 15 point-buy is too much for you, since by the new system (whatever it is) Kyra wound up with Str 14, Dex 12 Wis 18, and Cha 14 at 1st level (Con and Int are presumably 10, but went unstated).
I've never had any desire to play in a game with less than 15 point-buy, mind you, and that looks like a perfectly decent stat-line to me, but it is a bit above even 20 point-buy in PF1.
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I argued a lot about Goblins, however I really like what I saw for the Ancestry mechanics so far. It breaks that bad habit to play « the right race » to the job, and allows more variety in character building and roleplay.
I like the fact that Ancestry is an important mechanical choice, but in a good way. The only feat I did not like was the one that gives bonus on fire damages because I don’t want every pyromancer to be Goblin. Just as I don’t want every hammer guy to be Dwarf or every bowman to be Elf.
But apart from that feat, it seems very nice and well thought.
This is an interesting point, because if they try to not make any ancestry a "must have" for certain classes, they can't really make them too powerful then. But if they are all weak, then this makes the ancestries less distinct. There seems to be a tension between 2 different design goals here.
This is an interesting point, because if they try to not make any ancestry a "must have" for certain classes, they can't really make them too powerful then. But if they are all weak, then this makes the ancestries less distinct. There seems to be a tension between 2 different design goals here.I argued a lot about Goblins, however I really like what I saw for the Ancestry mechanics so far. It breaks that bad habit to play « the right race » to the job, and allows more variety in character building and roleplay.
I like the fact that Ancestry is an important mechanical choice, but in a good way. The only feat I did not like was the one that gives bonus on fire damages because I don’t want every pyromancer to be Goblin. Just as I don’t want every hammer guy to be Dwarf or every bowman to be Elf.
But apart from that feat, it seems very nice and well thought.
Yes I know and it is going to be a tough issue. This is where I expect their experience in game design to shine. Because people will want the bowman Elf but on the other hand every ranger human does not want to look with jealousy at the Elf.
Can some one tell me where it has been confirmed that humans have a base speed of 25 feet? Are we sure that is not just an armor speed penelty on the fighter and cleric?So far I have not heard or read about any character having a speed faster than this -- in fact, I do not recall any mention of any other speed. I think we need a specific mention of some character having some other speed before we can draw any conclusions.
I'm pretty sure human base speed being 25 was mentioned in the glass cannon podcast playtest. And I seem to remember Merisiel having 30 ft movement in the Game Trade Media playtest on youtube, but I'm not 100% sure about this.
I may get bonked for saying this, but I kinda prefer 3.5's +2 to one attribute, -2 to one attribute system. As it is, I tone back point buy in PF games to offset the additional +2. (I like my level 1 players to feel like Average Joes.)Yeah, you may need to tone down the character creation rules in general if 15 point-buy is too much for you, since by the new system (whatever it is) Kyra wound up with Str 14, Dex 12 Wis 18, and Cha 14 at 1st level (Con and Int are presumably 10, but went unstated).
I've never had any desire to play in a game with less than 15 point-buy, mind you, and that looks like a perfectly decent stat-line to me, but it is a bit above even 20 point-buy in PF1.
With +2 to 2 different stats (WIS and CHA) and either CON or INT being 11, this rounds out to a nice 20-buy! 5 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 1
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With +2 to 2 different stats (WIS and CHA) and either CON or INT being 11, this rounds out to a nice 20-buy! 5 + 2 + 10 + 2 + 1
True, but they've already said it's not gonna work quite that way. It does indicate results might well be similar, though. Which is fine, 20 point-buy is fun and what many people are used to, so having stats that approximate it by default is a solid choice.
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I actually hope that Ancestry Feats are powerful options that drive characters towards a certain style of play. Why are there so many dwarf fighters and clerics if there aren't inherently things about dwarfs that make them good at those classes? I'm not saying players should be forced into those options at the behest of others, but when you see that there are X Goblin Ancestry feats devoted to fire, it makes you think "Huh. Goblins must really be all about fire," which they are. You just shouldn't feel bad for not taking those options.
For example, let's say Goblin gets an Ancestry feat that says attacking someone with a Torch causes you to deal an extra die of damage as fire damage. You might be tempted to always fight with torches, which is certainly a very Goblin-y thing to do. However, another feat might increase your movement speed, cause you to bleed enemies you hit with Goblin weapons, or allow you to absorb a portion of damage you take as a reaction at the cost of being sent flying X squares/feet. These are all different effects that could be relevant to your character in different ways, and depending on their balance and the gameplay, may be well-balanced against each other. I suppose time, and the playtest, will tell.
I actually hope that Ancestry Feats are powerful options that drive characters towards a certain style of play. Why are there so many dwarf fighters and clerics if there aren't inherently things about dwarfs that make them good at those classes? I'm not saying players should be forced into those options at the behest of others, but when you see that there are X Goblin Ancestry feats devoted to fire, it makes you think "Huh. Goblins must really be all about fire," which they are. You just shouldn't feel bad for not taking those options.
For example, let's say Goblin gets an Ancestry feat that says attacking someone with a Torch causes you to deal an extra die of damage as fire damage. You might be tempted to always fight with torches, which is certainly a very Goblin-y thing to do. However, another feat might increase your movement speed, cause you to bleed enemies you hit with Goblin weapons, or allow you to absorb a portion of damage you take as a reaction at the cost of being sent flying X squares/feet. These are all different effects that could be relevant to your character in different ways, and depending on their balance and the gameplay, may be well-balanced against each other. I suppose time, and the playtest, will tell.
Gotta say I tend to agree with you here. More flavor equals more fun. And those sound like some really fun ideas.
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Also of notes, Gnomes also got an alternate racial trait that boosted their fire spells, so I wouldn't be surprised to see many Ancestries have similar (if not copied) feats to (from) other Ancestries.
(Some monsters in the monster books could get a quick write up like now, with a quick list of Ancestries feats possible taken from the main races AND a small list at the back of the book.)
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I'm OK with racial options being significant and powerful as long as they aren't clearly the optimal way to build a particular class or concept. Like, I'd rather see elves get better range or an easier time ignoring cover and concealment with bows than a flat DPR bonus.
Can some one tell me where it has been confirmed that humans have a base speed of 25 feet? Are we sure that is not just an armor speed penelty on the fighter and cleric?
Just in case anyone has missed, yesterday's Dwarf and Elf blog includes the sentence: "Elves can see in dim light, and have the highest speed of all the ancestries at 30 feet. (Going to three actions per round brought the other ancestries that were as fast as elves in Pathfinder First Edition down to 25 feet from 30.)"
Also as I think others have pointed out in other threads it looks like the distinction made by Heritage feats would make it easier to specify how adoption might work (you can take Heritage ancestry feats from your birth race, and other ancestry feats from your adoptive race).