Resonance itself may be okay, but almost certainly not in the format it is right now.
And it should NOT apply to single use consumable items.
I think potions had the following number of traits from the last playtest we saw: use resonance, might not work at all, and the healing ones were a d8 with no modifier? To me that reads "waste of money/encumbrance."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate the idea.
If they want to limit potions, then bring back the potion miscibility table.
At least that almost made sense.
| 25 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am seeing a lot of problems with this. I hope the devs have some resolutions in mind...
1) It encourages the 10-minute adventuring day. A system that both limits healing, and mandates all magic items have to be used in nova mode, along with buffing natural healing to Level*Con instead of just Level, means this is really encouraging resting rather than adventuring. That's just a killer for dramatic pacing.
2) Brings back "Timmy, you have to play the cleric"-syndrome. One awesome feature of PF1 is that you do not need a healer - as long as someone can use a wand of CLW or Infernal Healing, the party is good to go. But with healing items being completely kneecapped, it becomes almost mandatory to have a "healer" in every single party.
3) Discouraging the use of magic items. Now every time you use a magic item, that's one less dose of healing you can get. And any item that "isn't powerful enough" will be going straight to the dust bin. It was already difficult to include interesting magic items in the game, because even when you gave the players some Marvelous Pigments or a Feather Token or something else interesting, they'd usually put it in their pack and forget about it. Now, they have even more reason to ignore any magic items besides the most powerful possible things they can get their hands on.
4) Limits character flexibility. In PF1 you can build a UMD rogue, add some tactical variety to your character with a wand of Blade Lash, or play a character that would ordinarily be too squishy to even try by using wands of Shield or Mage Armor. By effectively now telling us "either get healing or use magic items, but you can't do both," that is going to invalidate a lot of builds.
Could someone tell me where i can read about this mechanic please?
Could someone tell me where i can read about this mechanic please?
As far as I'm aware, the only place it's been mentioned in any official and complete capacity is in the content of parts 3/4 of the glass cannon podcast. It may be transcribed somewhere, but there aren't any blog posts or anything about it yet.
One other point made during the podcast is that some magic items (like weapons) are in the category of "wielded" items instead of "worn" items. Resonance applies only to worn items, and not to wielded ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could someone tell me where i can read about this mechanic please?
They discuss it in the Pathfinder Playtest Part 3 at 58:45.
What I gathered from that discussion is:
- Every character has a pool of "resonance" equal to Level+Cha
- Using a magic item (including potions) costs one point of resonance
- Once you run out of resonance, you must make a check any time you try to use a magic item
- Resonance checks are "flat checks" - you receive no bonus on the d20 roll. The DC is 10 for the first resonance check, and you get no bonus to the roll.
- Failing the resonance check causes that use of the magic item to fail
- Fumbling the resonance check means you are cut off from using magic items for the rest of the day
- At the start of the day, you "invest" resonance in items that you wear. This costs one point per item, but allows you to continue to benefit from the item even if you are "cut off" from fumbling your resonance check.
- If you drink a potion but fail your resonance check, the potion is still consumed but you receive no benefit from it.
Thanks, i'll have to think this over, I like the basic idea. The execution may be a bit problematic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
How about sitting around for a minute waiting for healing?
And is is more heroic to cast healing spells for a minute?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I don't understand is...why can't we just make wands work similar to 5e? Each wand has a small number of charges that recharges daily on a die roll, and may be permanently destroyed if the last charge is expended. It's simple, elegant, makes logical sense in universe, and prevents CLW spam because the same monetary investment is spread over a long period of time for far fewer uses each time (so you have ~5 charges a day forever, rather than 50 charges at once).
As for potion chugging, Constitution makes a whole lot more sense than Charisma. Drink too many and you start making fortitude saves or get sick. That makes more sense than resonance too.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is more interesting to have people try using the heal skill, a skill generally left unused, than to have one person abuse a wand like a red-headed step child. I have read books where people have applied bandages and poultices. But never "hey greg the alchemist, cast this 12 times."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I don't understand is...why can't we just make wands work similar to 5e? Each wand has a small number of charges that recharges daily on a die roll, and may be permanently destroyed if the last charge is expended. It's simple, elegant, makes logical sense in universe, and prevents CLW spam because the same monetary investment is spread over a long period of time for far fewer uses each time (so you have ~5 charges a day forever, rather than 50 charges at once).
If the problem you're trying to fix is CLW spam (and this reply is from a point of view which is agnostic about whether that should be the case), then 5e style wands won't fix it. You might not be able to use the same wand 50 times, but assuming similar prices it's still cheaper (and more efficient) to have a whole bunch of 'em than one higher-level wand. In fact, it's even more favorable to the wand spammers, because now they don't even have to replace them so frequently.
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
Leaving the townsfolk trapped in a cultist-controlled cathedral while you go back to the inn for a night's sleep is significantly less heroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't like it. I don't like it at all.
A gruff, grumpy dwarf wizard and/or rogue blowing the smoke off the smoldering tip of his wand of fireball before putting it back in his magic bag of magical paraphernalia he's collected is a compelling image to me.
Just as fun as the wild hunter like elf barbarian that impales his foe's heads on tree branches like a shrike, or the alchemist obsessed with the trans-etheric trilocation of the soul, and how it's study may be applied in the spontaneous generation of living cats through alchemical means.
Speaking of alchemy, potions tied to charisma is going to do some very strange things when one of the core classes is now alchemist.
One of the things that they've been talking about is being able to tell the same kinds of stories in 2e as you could in 1e, and something like this kind of... well...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So you stop for a minute. Apply some bandages. Shrug off some of the hurt on your way and drink a potion. On a 1 you can drink anymore and it doesnt work. On a 10 or more it does.
We should just make magic potins and wands addictive.
Ex-heroes lining the back alleys cutting themselves, trying to get their next potion fix, "Please, man! Give me a Cure! I need it! I'm going to die here!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking of alchemy, potions tied to charisma is going to do some very strange things when one of the core classes is now alchemist.
It sounds like Alchemists get to cheat there. At the very least, they prepare elixirs that don't count against their resonance.
Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.Leaving the townsfolk trapped in a cultist-controlled cathedral while you go back to the inn for a night's sleep is significantly less heroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
I doubt that is the default solution people will opt for now. After all the wand-spam is a tool to help in fulfilling the quest. Going back to town for a nights rest is basically abandoning the quest. I doubt people will have that little interest in completing their task/continuing the story.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Currently in Pathfinder there's a lot of x-per day things that aren't even class features that I have to keep track of. It's to the point where character sheets I use are more annoying unless there's some sort of tracker in the item box. In fact I printed out a universal thing tracker for all the junk I have to keep up with. Any change that reduces this to fewer pools of numbers is fine by me. Plus it gives charisma something new to do. Just make it interesting, like items that increase in power the more you resonate with them so you can keep using your flaming sword you like longer because now it's a lava sword at higher levels.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
I doubt that is the default solution people will opt for now. After all the wand-spam is a tool to help in fulfilling the quest. Going back to town for a nights rest is basically abandoning the quest. I doubt people will have that little interest in completing their task/continuing the story.Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.Leaving the townsfolk trapped in a cultist-controlled cathedral while you go back to the inn for a night's sleep is significantly less heroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
It already happened in the very first public game (GCP Playtest.) They were exploring a crypt in which an NPC's sister is possibly in danger from an evil undead creature. But Troy's character ran out of resonance, couldn't drink a healing potion, and so they decided to rest for the night instead of trying to find the NPC's sister.
It already happened in the very first public game (GCP Playtest.) They were exploring a crypt in which an NPC's sister is possibly in danger from an evil undead creature. But Troy's character ran out of resonance, couldn't drink a healing potion, and so they decided to rest for the night instead of trying to find the NPC's sister.I doubt that is the default solution people will opt for now. After all the wand-spam is a tool to help in fulfilling the quest. Going back to town for a nights rest is basically abandoning the quest. I doubt people will have that little interest in completing their task/continuing the story.Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.Leaving the townsfolk trapped in a cultist-controlled cathedral while you go back to the inn for a night's sleep is significantly less heroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
Not quite. They decided to rest for the night instead of trying to find the NPC's sister (something my PF1 group did in the same situation), and when healing up for the night, he couldn't get the effect of the free Alchemist elixir.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The more I think about it, the more I like it in general. The specific set up might not work right out of the gate, but the core of it sounds decent enough.
Potions and scrolls need to be exempt though, for sure. Plus, healing potions appear to be weak right now. I'd rather them restore a flat 8 HP than a d8 with no modifier whatsoever.
5e health potions are a fist full of d4s, aren't they? Not saying to go that route necessarily, but at least with those you don't wind up with a single hit point restored from your valuable resource.
Not quite. They decided to rest for the night instead of trying to find the NPC's sister (something my PF1 group did in the same situation), and when healing up for the night, he couldn't get the effect of the free Alchemist elixir.It already happened in the very first public game (GCP Playtest.) They were exploring a crypt in which an NPC's sister is possibly in danger from an evil undead creature. But Troy's character ran out of resonance, couldn't drink a healing potion, and so they decided to rest for the night instead of trying to find the NPC's sister.I doubt that is the default solution people will opt for now. After all the wand-spam is a tool to help in fulfilling the quest. Going back to town for a nights rest is basically abandoning the quest. I doubt people will have that little interest in completing their task/continuing the story.Nothing is more unheroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.Leaving the townsfolk trapped in a cultist-controlled cathedral while you go back to the inn for a night's sleep is significantly less heroic than sitting around for a minute or more after combat poking everyone with a clw wand.
It's less a problem with the rules in question as it is a problem with playing to the rules of the game rather than using the rules to play to the story.
These types of players in question care more about the rules than the story, so when an opportunity came where they had to choose between following the story or extracting a benefit from the rules, they chose the rules, no matter how much it doesn't make sense story-wise.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes people dont burn through small dungeons in a single go. In fact in curse of the crimson throne there is an area where they assume the party will stop halfway to rest. Despite the area being affected by an very deadly and viral disease. The game assumes sometimes parties rest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm. Just a hypothetical, but something like "you can spend resonance to maximize the healing, otherwise no resonance impact" would be interesting. Impractical to apply to various potion effects, though. But I can see if they want people to not spam cheap healing, they are going to not want workarounds.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
On further reflection...kill this with fire. All it does is make the early levels needlessly more lethal and disincentivize playing around with nonhealing items. It's Starfinder Resolve all over again!
You know what. How much does the average party spend on wands? Reduce WBL by that amount and let heal bandage wounds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm cool with the idea, though I think it needs some tweaking. For starters some kind of kicker at lvl 1 would go a long way, because having 1 resonance point per day seems not great. Maybe like Lvl+2+Cha instead of straight level+cha?
I do think the idea that it contributes to the 15 minute adventuring day is a concern though. I would hope the devs are aware of that issue though, and have some idea in mind to fix it.
That said, the 15 minute day is based on the fact that 3.P is partially a game of resource management. Many abilities (particularly spellcasting) are x times/day. So basically, unless you can break the chains of Vancian casting, I don't see the 15 minute day going anywhere regardless. Resonance doesn't fix that problem, but unless they mess up the calculations for how much of it you get, it shouldn't make it (significantly) worse either.
I do like the ideas people have raised of potions being tracked separately, probably via a similar Constitution-based system. Or potion miscibility. 3:)
To be honest though, my group (and me in particular) tends to hoard consumables, I think I might drink a potion like once in every 5 or 6 sessions? If that? So I'm not super worried about a nerf on potions. Particularly if it also comes with a vastly reduced chance of getting stabbed in the face every time I try to drink one.
Also, people complaining about how a lot of items will be chucked in this system because they're niche: That's every system. If anything this encourages you to keep oddball items, because you can activate them on the fly if you happen to need them, even if you already have something else equipped in what in p1e would be the same item slot (if I understand the rule correctly.) It's not like you need to spend resonance to cart a feather token around with you, you only need to spend it to activate it on the very unlikely chance a use for it comes up. (Seriously, has anybody ever used a feather token? I think I've seen one get used once in 10+ years of playing PF/3.5)
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
(Seriously, has anybody ever used a feather token? I think I've seen one get used once in 10+ years of playing PF/3.5)
I've used a whip feather token! But just because it seemed like fun. If using that token had not only cost me a round, but also meant possible death because the potion that later gets poured down the throat of my unconscious dying body has no effect, I don't know if I would have made the same choice!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(Seriously, has anybody ever used a feather token? I think I've seen one get used once in 10+ years of playing PF/3.5)I've used a whip feather token! But just because it seemed like fun. If using that token had not only cost me a round, but also meant possible death because the potion that later gets poured down the throat of my unconscious dying body has no effect, I don't know if I would have made the same choice!
Haha fair point. I do also favor not having potions fall under Resonance though, in which case it wouldn't be nearly so much of an issue.
I mean, there's a lot of other stuff I need to know about before I can even really have an opinion on resonance.
- So do I no longer need big 6 items just to stay alive?
- How good is healing? We have more HP than before, so maybe basic healing is stronger?
- Who gets access to decent healing, and how much of it is there?
- What feats interact with resonance, and how costly is it to increase one's charisma?
- What magic items are there that I'm going to want to attune to for sure?
It's probably best to wait until I can read the whole playtest document before forming an opinion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, just to play devil's advocate a bit, it seems like the rule essentially is something to the effect of "activating a magic item costs resonance." So using a wand of CLW would cost resonance from the person using the wand, rather than the recipient. Therefore couldn't we logically reach the conclusion that if someone administers a potion to someone else, that the Resonance cost actually comes from them instead of the recipient?
I'm sure that's not as the devs intended, but it would actually (sort of) fix several of the issues I've seen raised with it, such as the BBEG making a peasant drink a potion of polymorph, or the unconscious character being force-fed a potion of healing.
Of course I can already see the munchkins leading a parade of followers into the dungeon to feed them potions. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I said this earlier in the other thread where Resonance was revealed, but potions specifically should be based on Constitution instead of spending Resonance. How healthy you are affects how much magic you can literally ingest without ill effect. Say, half your Constitution score per day with no ill effects, and after that you start rolling on the Potion Miscibility table.
Otherwise, I have no problem with Resonance. It means you can have as many magic rings or belts as you want, or like in real life can wear robes with armor, because you allocate the resonance where you want. It also reins in wand and scroll abuse.
Remember, it is based on Cha mod + level, not just Cha mod. So for those people above who seem upset Paizo is keeping you from wearing your Magic Item Christmas Tree, honestly it's not going to be so restrictive as to do that at the levels where you'd be likely to have a lot of items anyway. It will just keep you from overusing the activated abilities of all those items.
(I do wonder if certain items will cost 2 resonance, instead of just 1.... I guess we'll see.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man, tree feather tokens are my jam. Bridges, boats, battering rams, traps, door stops, watch towers, portable exercise equipment, and much much more!
I have to echo RumpinRufus here, though. Some of my characters probably wouldn't be doing those things if they were likely to get them killed later.
I need more information to know what to think. If a Cleric uses a Cure Wand on a Fighter, who gets charged Resonance; the Cleric, the Fighter, or both?
It does seem to pretty much eliminate the concept of the at-will item unless they're defined as "wielded" instead of "worn", like the Apprentice Cheating Gloves mentioned above.