Resonance: what do you think?


Prerelease Discussion

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RumpinRufus wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
As it is in Pathfinder, finding a potion of cure serious is not any more exciting than a few potions of cure light wounds. They are both just a few charges saved from a wand, and are often overlooked. I like that resonance makes finding higher level potions much more exciting.
This is not my experience at all. Potions of Cure Serious are used for in-combat healing and are tremendously valuable and sought-after.

A good portion of tables I play at view the most effective healing-in-combat as killing the enemy faster.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
the "But I don't want to use my cool powers to patch up Bob, I want to use them to be a raging engine of divine justice" problem
This, at least, is addressed by making healing a separate pool from other spells.

Just to be clear are you suggesting something like, Lvl 1 Cleric has 2 general spells and 1 healing spell?

If so I would say this still would leave some players asking, "Why do I have to have healing spells? Why can't I just have another Divine Favor?"

It would also still leave healing in the hands of a subset of casters which I feel would be bad. This is why I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.


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JRutterbush wrote:
adds interesting choices for players

You and I have VASTLY different ideas on what's interesting... :P


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Covent wrote:
I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.

I could not agree more.

I do want to see a clear and obvious and potent option for a dedicated healer when someone wants to play 'the whitemage' archetype, but in general keeping a party going should not be dependent on magic, nor should there any expectation that the burden of healing would primarily fall on one player.

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Covent wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
the "But I don't want to use my cool powers to patch up Bob, I want to use them to be a raging engine of divine justice" problem
This, at least, is addressed by making healing a separate pool from other spells.

Just to be clear are you suggesting something like, Lvl 1 Cleric has 2 general spells and 1 healing spell?

If so I would say this still would leave some players asking, "Why do I have to have healing spells? Why can't I just have another Divine Favor?"

It would also still leave healing in the hands of a subset of casters which I feel would be bad. This is why I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.

Have you listened to the playtest podcast? The cleric's healing pool is used for both single target and area healing/ channeled energy. You might prepare a healing spell on top of that, but I expect most healing will stem from the healing pool.


This is a hard one to tackle for me.

To be certain, changing the rules on Perception to create a baked in mechanic in the same sense as Concentration was in PF1 is almost a universally accepted godsend.

This feels to me like an attempt to tie UMD into a similar mechanic. I'm trying to listen to the podcasts now.

Overall, it seems like the system is a struggle between trying to give everyone free UMD and still imposing a limit on magic item spam and abuse.

The solution I feel once we get play testing for real, will end up somewhere in the middle, I suspect this is one of the more 'drastic' changes added with the intent to dial it back if it tests poorly, which based on initial tests and opinions, seems likely.

We also need more information on magic items in general, single-use items like potions and scrolls to me seem like they should be a resource on their own to deal with where a wand or staff ought to be tied to the resonance mechanic or whatever substitute we have for UMD. We might not even need wands or staves to be separate items if and when something like this negates the difference between them effectively.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
the "But I don't want to use my cool powers to patch up Bob, I want to use them to be a raging engine of divine justice" problem
This, at least, is addressed by making healing a separate pool from other spells.

Just to be clear are you suggesting something like, Lvl 1 Cleric has 2 general spells and 1 healing spell?

If so I would say this still would leave some players asking, "Why do I have to have healing spells? Why can't I just have another Divine Favor?"

It would also still leave healing in the hands of a subset of casters which I feel would be bad. This is why I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.

Have you listened to the playtest podcast? The cleric's healing pool is used for both single target and area healing/ channeled energy. You might prepare a healing spell on top of that, but I expect most healing will stem from the healing pool.

The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
the "But I don't want to use my cool powers to patch up Bob, I want to use them to be a raging engine of divine justice" problem
This, at least, is addressed by making healing a separate pool from other spells.

Just to be clear are you suggesting something like, Lvl 1 Cleric has 2 general spells and 1 healing spell?

If so I would say this still would leave some players asking, "Why do I have to have healing spells? Why can't I just have another Divine Favor?"

It would also still leave healing in the hands of a subset of casters which I feel would be bad. This is why I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.

Have you listened to the playtest podcast? The cleric's healing pool is used for both single target and area healing/ channeled energy. You might prepare a healing spell on top of that, but I expect most healing will stem from the healing pool.
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.

If someone wants to heal, then healing isn't wasting their action.

That being said, I vehemently disagree with forcefully allocating any of any class's resources towards healing. It should be a choice, ideally general feats or at worst class feats that are available to multiple classes.

[And the Heal Skill should either be made very valuable or removed from the game. In PF1 it's basically a waste of pagecount.]


Disagree. I'd rather have healing be a viable option and a wanted (or at least desirable option) as opposed to the current situation where everyone looks at healers in scorn and says why are you wasting spells on that when you can get a control spell instead.

Liberty's Edge

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Resonance seems like a weird system to me. I guess I can see where it's coming from, but Pathfinder characters want to kill monsters and take their stuff. Now they just can't use as much of it?

I suppose this fixes the "CLW Wand Issue" but it seems like a pretty heavy-handed bandaid.

I guess we'll see what the full rules are eventually, but this doesn't sit right with me from what's been described so far.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Covent wrote:
the "But I don't want to use my cool powers to patch up Bob, I want to use them to be a raging engine of divine justice" problem
This, at least, is addressed by making healing a separate pool from other spells.

Just to be clear are you suggesting something like, Lvl 1 Cleric has 2 general spells and 1 healing spell?

If so I would say this still would leave some players asking, "Why do I have to have healing spells? Why can't I just have another Divine Favor?"

It would also still leave healing in the hands of a subset of casters which I feel would be bad. This is why I believe that we should have available, level appropriate, healing for all classes through means such as the heal skill, short rests, or some other form.

Have you listened to the playtest podcast? The cleric's healing pool is used for both single target and area healing/ channeled energy. You might prepare a healing spell on top of that, but I expect most healing will stem from the healing pool.

I was aware that channel could be used for healing spells. I was just unclear with what you meant, my apologies, if I came off as gruff or rude.

Now this still leaves the "Who's turn is it to play the cleric" issue.


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Why not just give fast healing 1 to everyone? That way nobody needs to expand resources in healing.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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RumpinRufus wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:
will contribute to the current situation where 80% of magic items are not given a second look.

I think this is a serious problem.

KingOfAnything wrote:
As it is in Pathfinder, finding a potion of cure serious is not any more exciting than a few potions of cure light wounds. They are both just a few charges saved from a wand, and are often overlooked. I like that resonance makes finding higher level potions much more exciting.
This is not my experience at all. Potions of Cure Serious are used for in-combat healing and are tremendously valuable and sought-after.

Really? I almost never see people use potions in combat. They take your whole turn to draw and drink, and provoke attacks of opportunity to use. That means it often takes two rounds to drink a potion—one to escape from the enemy’s reach, and another to actually drink your potion.

And that’s not even getting into the issue of healing vs. damage rates.


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Arakasius wrote:
Disagree. I'd rather have healing be a viable option and a wanted (or at least desirable option) as opposed to the current situation where everyone looks at healers in scorn and says why are you wasting spells on that when you can get a control spell instead.

Who exactly are you disagreeing with?

I want a Healer to be an immensely valuable asset to a party, someone who takes away the hurt more quickly than the enemy dishes it out and looks awesome doing it.

But Healer has to be an optional path. Not everyone likes the concept and forcing it on a player is wrong.

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.

You only give up your -10 attack to heal an adjacent ally or yourself. I don't see that as a wasted action.


edduardco wrote:
Why not just give fast healing 1 to everyone? That way nobody needs to expand resources in healing.

Ehhhh, I feel like Some Form of resource is necessary.

I would not be opposed to a Fast Recovery general feat. Maybe heal 1/10th max HP per minute spent resting.

I am also not at all opposed to the Heal Skill providing abundant free healing [at the cost of somebody taking the skill] out of combat.


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Zonto wrote:

Resonance seems like a weird system to me. I guess I can see where it's coming from, but Pathfinder characters want to kill monsters and take their stuff. Now they just can't use as much of it?

This right here. 3.x went pretty far in the direction of bombarding PCs with magic of all sorts when compared with previous editions, and now that's what players (current players at least) are expecting from the game.

It very well may be that PF2 is an attempt to rebalance the game back toward 1e, where you rarely got magical items and those you did get were determined by luck/the DM and not by how much money the PCs had. If so, well...bravo. That's bold and I would personally like it if it meant dragging the magic mart out into the alley and...disposing of it.

But I suspect (based on nothing more than a hunch) that most PF players don't want to go down that road. From what I've seen (and again, this is IME), most players like the magic mart, they like being festooned with magic items of every description, and they pretty much aren't keen on that changing too much. I am fully prepared to be proven wrong, however.


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Gregg Helmberger wrote:

It very well may be that PF2 is an attempt to rebalance the game back toward 1e, where you rarely got magical items and those you did get were determined by luck/the DM and not by how much money the PCs had. If so, well...bravo. That's bold and I would personally like it if it meant dragging the magic mart out into the alley and...disposing of it.

But I suspect (based on nothing more than a hunch) that most PF players don't want to go down that road. From what I've seen (and again, this is IME), most players like the magic mart, they like being festooned with magic items of every description, and they pretty much aren't keen on that changing too much. I am fully prepared to be proven wrong, however.

This is how I manage my own game and it works fantastic...

... but my game differs a great deal from the Paradigms of PF1. The focus is all on personal growth and inner strength.


Knight Magenta wrote:

I think pigeonholing all magic items to the same level of power is boring and will contribute to the current situation where 80% of magic items are not given a second look.

Given that spells effects are not really tied to caster level, and so to get more out of a spell you have to cast it at a higher level slot - having that happen with magic items (ignoreing weaker ones, and focusing on more powerful ones) fits.


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It amuses me to see so many people pushing a no healing game. Without healing and having damage be a serious thing with actual consequences all fights turn into rocket tag where its kill or be killed because in the middle it doesn't matter. All fights begin at full health seriously undermines risk in the game and makes it feel like a game with little consequences. It also has issues with fight balance.

I find as a DM with my group healing to full after every fight because of CLW usage that I have to make the monsters even more threatening to actually have a chance at hurting their group. If instead I knew that 2-3 fights into the dungeon they are seriously down healing resources I can balance fights more appropriately. Now I just have to try and alpha them every time, because right now if a fight isn't enough to cause them to blow multiple spells there is no point to it, they're just going to be up to full after it. That seriously kills the immersion of the game.

To me dungeons should be a struggle where you push on even knowing your group isn't at full. That makes things engaging and pushes the struggle between caution and aggression in how you manage the group's goals. It also makes the game far more marketable/entertaining as a watchable product, which I'm sure Paizo is aware of with regards to 5e's spike in popularity.

Now is killing wand usage mean we have to use resonance? No its just one of the side effects of the change. It also means players can use multiple items at the same slot, have one tracking item for all their items instead of one for each slot and give a risk/reward system to using magic items. I expect this to see some changes, but its a step in the right direction.


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After reading through this thread I am really really hoping that all of the naysayers are just a vocal minority, because I absolutely love what we know of resonance currently. It makes CHA more useful, as it is read as forceof personality and the ability for one to exert their will over the world around them it makes total sense, and I actually like that it seems to force a need for a healer.

To me TTRPGs are games of cooperation, people need to work together to overcome obstacles, and I have never been of the opinion that any and all class makeups should be able to overcome any obstacle. Players should be making smart decisions right from character creation, and if they all decide to focus on DPS exclusively then they should pay the price for it.

Also, with a Alchemist in the core it sounds like we have even more healer options to add plent my of variety. Clerics are the standard healer, Paladins have Lay on hands and a small pool of spells, alchemists get elixirs now, and maybe Bards have their healing capabilities boosted. So a third of the class options right there can be the party healer while also doing other fun things, I don’t think that every single group is going to be completely comprised of members who will refuse to play all these classes, so it shouldn’t be a big deal at most tables. Someone will counter that argument with an example of their group because of course, but again that’s anecdotal and I doubt representative of most tables.

If the party all want to play martials then it SHOULD be more harrowing and a challenge, to me that is what makes these kind of games fun, but I also am a huge Dark Souls fan and this reminds me of estus. All in all, i am a very big fan of this change, including having it effect consumables, and hope more people who like it speak up during this time and the actual play test so as not to deter Paizo from moving forward with it. Plus, as has been stated we don’t know hardly anything about what magic items are going to really be capable of so it could very well be that one point of resonance is far more impactful than five item slots on your body, time will tell.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.
You only give up your -10 attack to heal an adjacent ally or yourself. I don't see that as a wasted action.

Your a spell caster there are probably so many more interesting and dynamic things you could do with that action.


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Sovereign Glue, how does that work?
How long does an Immovable Rod stay put if activating it required a daily resource?
Do Bags of Holding still hold things if they're not being held?
What about the other extra dimensional spaces?
Are Flying Carpets and Brooms attuned or activated?
With things like Bookplates of Recall, what happens when you need to spend your daily attunement/resonance/whatever, and the object in question isn't physically present?

I don't know if they already have answers to any of these, or if they're still working on it. It's just something to keep in mind, really.

My real question is will this kill the option of playing an awkward, anti-social introvert that lacks confidence, but is quite skilled with utilizing magic items? The kind of guy that feels more comfortable with objects than people. Because I quite like that dynamic.
I also like playing charismatic characters of all flavors, from talkative, socially outgoing fighters that are surprisingly pretty under all that armor, to gruff, plain people who just know that they are right, and are capable of convincing others that their opinion is the correct one.
But I kind of feel like tying the ability to actually use the fly new swag you just plundered from the lich's tomb/troglodyte cave/mayor's office/dragon's lair/queen's bedchamber requires only CHA and level, that CHA will become the new Mandatory Fun. Especially if it's a resource to be spent.

I'll wait until I can see what choices I'm actually making with that resource before I pass judgement on it, but the examples I've seen proposed in the pretest vacuum haven't really gotten me excited. Choosing in a very small pool for use per day and per day attunement seems boring and linear to me, which has been a recurring theme when someone in the entertainment industry tells me that something I like is going to be, "streamlined."
Who knows? Maybe they'll somehow make the choice worth it. I'm not a diviner, so I can't read minds or foretell the future.


MadScientistWorking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.
You only give up your -10 attack to heal an adjacent ally or yourself. I don't see that as a wasted action.
Your a spell caster there are probably so many more interesting and dynamic things you could do with that action.

Why is keeping your party alive considered not interesting all of a sudden? If you are the type of player that only finds smashing face interesting then cool for you, but I am sure plenty of other players find actually playing strategically interesting.


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Arakasius wrote:
It amuses me to see so many people pushing a no healing game.

Ok Arak, you get to be your group's dedicated healer. This game. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the one after that. [This really happens in some groups, a player winds up getting bullied into playing 'the healer' when the group expects one, and they get stuck there forever.]

Oh, and did I mention the game is 'balanced' around having a dedicated healer? So you aren't even doing anything spectacular or special, there's no appreciation for your efforts because you're just a cog in the machine.

Quote:
Without healing and having damage be a serious thing with actual consequences all fights turn into rocket tag where its kill or be killed because in the middle it doesn't matter. All fights begin at full health seriously undermines risk in the game and makes it feel like a game with little consequences. It also has issues with fight balance.

Speaking as a GM who exclusively runs campaigns where my party is pretty much always over 80% [and usually over 90%] full on HP, the game works great. Speedbump fights are still speedbumps, they slow the party down and create a feeling of victory and achievement. Difficult fights are still very difficult, with the party struggling and occasionally losing someone.

Quote:
I find as a DM with my group healing to full after every fight because of CLW usage that I have to make the monsters even more threatening to actually have a chance at hurting their group. If instead I knew that 2-3 fights into the dungeon they are seriously down healing resources I can balance fights more appropriately. Now I just have to try and alpha them every time, because right now if a fight isn't enough to cause them to blow multiple spells there is no point to it, they're just going to be up to full after it. That seriously kills the immersion of the game.

If you're trying to Alpha them every time, you would not be a fun GM for me. This game is supposed to be about fun with occasional challenges, not balls to the walls constant threat of death.

Are you the type of GM that loves to whittle down players' resources [or worse, primarily health] and keep them on a knife edge? I don't mind that sort of scenario once in a rare blue moon [maybe once a year or so] but I definitely do not enjoy that playstyle in general.

Quote:
To me dungeons should be a struggle where you push on even knowing your group isn't at full. That makes things engaging and pushes the struggle between caution and aggression in how you manage the group's goals.

See... I don't like dungeons. Not as a GM nor as a Player. I favor Open World adventure.

Quote:
It also makes the game far more marketable/entertaining as a watchable product, which I'm sure Paizo is aware of with regards to 5e's spike in popularity.

Can you clarify this point? I don't follow.


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I don't think it is about 'None of the players wants to play the dedicated healer' but more of, 'We're 13 levels in and the player who played the healer suddenly has to leave the group because of reasons, so, is anyone not invested enough in his character at this point and wants to change? No? Well..."

Shadow Lodge

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Cooperative party building can work in a home game where you have a set party every time. But in PFS your party is whoever shows up that day. So outside of someone taking a pregen, the likelihood of the party having a healer is low.


I like resonance as a general concept. But I'm not sure it works theoretically for potions, and I'm a little skeptical of scrolls.

Sovereign Court

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.
You only give up your -10 attack to heal an adjacent ally or yourself. I don't see that as a wasted action.
Your a spell caster there are probably so many more interesting and dynamic things you could do with that action.

I mean, you can cast a spell for two actions and have one action left to heal your ally or yourself as well...


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Cuttlefist wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
The cleric as healer is a concept that deserves to go. They shouldn't have to even waste their actions healing nor should it be required that they are the healer.
You only give up your -10 attack to heal an adjacent ally or yourself. I don't see that as a wasted action.
Your a spell caster there are probably so many more interesting and dynamic things you could do with that action.
Why is keeping your party alive considered not interesting all of a sudden? If you are the type of player that only finds smashing face interesting then cool for you, but I am sure plenty of other players find actually playing strategically interesting.

I'm the player that wants to keep the party alive. Its just that typically and this is the case in Pathfinder 1E that healing spells are arguably the worst at helping it.


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I hate this kind of thing !!

Resonance is just a gamist rule that will push people to optimize and ruin immersion.

If you want to limit magic items, then do it to the max : improve the system so that PCs don't need +X bonus to AC, ST or characteristics, remove the magical shop and the item creation, reduce the number of slots to a handful, make heal spells that can restore most HP of a PC but can't be use in combat.

I can't to see a game where the paladin will say that the group can't attacck the demon lord because his resonance is off today so he can't use his holy avenger ...


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Healer seems actually fun to play in PF2. Healing an ally doesn't preclude other interesting actions on your turn.


People are focusing on the limits that resonance puts on you with respect to using lots of minor magic items, but once we see the power level of new magic items it may turn out to be an improvement on the high end by allowing you to spam several uses out of a really good item that previously would have been limited to one use per day. Imagine something like the Quick Runner's Shirt giving an extra action, or that robe that lets Sorcerers use a spell slot to cast an off-list scroll spell.


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Covent wrote:
Now this still leaves the "Who's turn is it to play the cleric" issue.

Just quoting one thing, but this sort of thingy has come up in this thread a million times.

Here's my response to some of the things that have been brought up:

1. Me! oh oh, pick me! *hops* me me me!

2. Maybe this wouldn't be such a burden (but see point 1 again) if healing was more interested in varied (there's at least two threads out there about that).

2a. Maybe people would enjoy healing if they just tried it, instead of crying about change and sticking their heads in the sand.

3. The "give everybody healing" sounds like a great idea. Why don't we call it.. Healing Surge? Who needs varied classes? let's just make everybody one class - every class can do everything, so why not? Homogenized classes for the win!

4. To all those saying things like, "oh noes parties without a healer will be at a disadvantage" .. Check your entitlement at the door, please. You want to be effective with teamwork? Well, maybe you should try some teamwork.

5. omg pick me! ME!! *hops wildly*

6. Time for the CLW training wheels to come off. They're not allowed in my groups, and we seem to get by.

Anyhowww... Kerries supports CHA uses. Item resonance sounds neat. The potion thing where they also use resonance is a bit weird though. I would make it instead that potions made you sick if you had too many, in a way completely unrelated to worn items. As for people who dumped cha being burned - um, yes, you chose to do that. Maybe min-maxing in that manner should have a consequence?


@kyrt-ryder:

They can do things like short rest and improving the healing skill to supplement the loss of clw wands and usage. But yes to me healing should be part of the balanced party. I don't think it should be required, but I think it should be desirable and not looked down on. I'm sure the devs can think of something to make healing effective without consuming all your character choices as well as providing options for those players who do want to play a healbot.

As for balance in combat, if your party is always over 90% that to me sounds like you're doing a fairly RP heavy game and I wonder why you even use Pathfinder for that since it doesn't seem like a good fit. I subscribe to the old school d&d way where encounters are often deadly. I roll publicly. To me if an encounter has no chance of providing drama on the combat end there better be a good RP tie in to that encounter. But many things like random encounters, mobs in dungeons before the boss are just meaningless to have unless the players pay the cost for fighting them. To me having those fights have costs gives the players more a reason to not be murder hobos and use other reasons to avoid combat.

As for my comment on watchability, streams have become successful for role playing, memorable characters and doing heroic stuff. Spamming a person with 20 clw charges breaks the first as well as the third. There is nothing more unheroic after fighting the boss' evil lieutenant and knowing through the door stands the lair of the big bad then to stand around for 3 minutes poking people with a magical stick. In fantasy stories characters often fight the bad guys already injured and that adds to the drama of the story.


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Hythlodeus wrote:
I don't think it is about 'None of the players wants to play the dedicated healer' but more of, 'We're 13 levels in and the player who played the healer suddenly has to leave the group because of reasons, so, is anyone not invested enough in his character at this point and wants to change? No? Well..."

GM takes over the PC.

GM's too lazy to do that? Then he is going to have to modify future encounters to deal with the lack of a healer.

Too lazy for that? Find a new GM.

This isn't hard.


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Arakasius wrote:
There is nothing more unheroic after fighting the boss' evil lieutenant and knowing through the door stands the lair of the big bad then to stand around for 3 minutes poking people with a magical stick.

I think fighting the evil lieutenant, knowing the big bad boss is just through that door and deciding to find a place to safely take a nap qualifies as way more unheroic than jerking off a couple of wands. but maybe that's just me


One thing I thought about having resonance does - a PC can carry a few situational magic items, the use resonance to bond with them before when they need them. That makes some magic items that might not have been attractive to keep because of those times it will come in handy.


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GM OfAnything wrote:
Healer seems actually fun to play in PF2. Healing an ally doesn't preclude other interesting actions on your turn.

Channeling takes your entire turn (3 actions) - which is actually more than it took in PF1 (when it was just a standard action!) Healing at range takes 2 actions. Only in the case that you start your round adjacent to the ally you want to heal can you actually heal and cast a spell in the same round.


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Arakasius wrote:

@kyrt-ryder:

They can do things like short rest and improving the healing skill to supplement the loss of clw wands and usage.

Forgive me if I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were advocating enforcing 'healing in combat' as a mandatory role.

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But yes to me healing should be part of the balanced party. I don't think it should be required, but I think it should be desirable and not looked down on. I'm sure the devs can think of something to make healing effective without consuming all your character choices as well as providing options for those players who do want to play a healbot.

That is certainly the hope.

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As for balance in combat, if your party is always over 90% that to me sounds like you're doing a fairly RP heavy game and I wonder why you even use Pathfinder for that since it doesn't seem like a good fit.

My games are RP heavy combat intensive. When the battles come, they come like the storm. I deal with Out of Combat Healing through the heal skill [1 hit die of the recipient rolled, up to a maximum of the recipient's total hit dice or the medic's ranks in Heal, whichever is lower] and let those who want to heal in battle be incredibly amazing at it.

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I subscribe to the old school d&d way where encounters are often deadly. I roll publicly.

I also roll publicly. I'm not a GM who hides my dice behind a screen, I have no reason to as I do not fudge. I make it clear to my players that they experience consequences of their choices and their luck.

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To me if an encounter has no chance of providing drama on the combat end there better be a good RP tie in to that encounter.

Players enjoy kicking ass. I like to see a good 50% or so of encounters just be casual beatdowns, either with some plot purpose or a random encounter or whatever. Another 30% are mild challenges that burn a couple daily resources and the last 20% are intense fights that put lives on the line. Of course this is just average, circumstances can change this tendency.

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But many things like random encounters, mobs in dungeons before the boss are just meaningless to have unless the players pay the cost for fighting them. To me having those fights have costs gives the players more a reason to not be murder hobos and use other reasons to avoid combat.

Meaningless is in the eye of the beholder. Worldbuilding isn't meaningless. Giving the PCs some fun punching bags isn't meaningless. Building some story and context for the adventure isn't meaningless.

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As for my comment on watchability, streams have become successful for role playing, memorable characters and doing heroic stuff. Spamming a person with 20 clw charges breaks the first as well as the third. There is nothing more unheroic after fighting the boss' evil lieutenant and knowing through the door stands the lair of the big bad then to stand around for 3 minutes poking people with a magical stick. In fantasy stories characters often fight the bad guys already injured and that adds to the drama of the story.

I will agree the visual of repeated CLW use is pretty lame. The visual of the heroes gathering their bearings, splinting legs and bandaging wounds before pressing on to the final battle though? Very compelling.

Then there are open world adventures like the ones I run, where the players have far *less* control over when they fight an enemy [because the enemy isn't waiting in a room in some lair] but also far *more* because they usually have the option to fall back and come again later [with the natural consequences of leaving the enemy be dangling over their heads of course. The world works with or without the PCs taking action.]


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Xenocrat wrote:
People are focusing on the limits that resonance puts on you with respect to using lots of minor magic items, but once we see the power level of new magic items it may turn out to be an improvement on the high end by allowing you to spam several uses out of a really good item that previously would have been limited to one use per day. Imagine something like the Quick Runner's Shirt giving an extra action, or that robe that lets Sorcerers use a spell slot to cast an off-list scroll spell.

For me, I really don't CARE about 'improvement on the high end'. I don't think I'll see higher levels in the new system than now so getting a few extra uses of a sphere of annihilation isn't exactly an exciting thing for me when most of the levels I'll play are limiting me from collecting a pile of quirky minor items... :P


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thistledown wrote:
Cooperative party building can work in a home game where you have a set party every time. But in PFS your party is whoever shows up that day. So outside of someone taking a pregen, the likelihood of the party having a healer is low.

Actually, PFS should be a good indicator that Paizo most probably has some ace under the sleeve to take care of the healbot issue.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Overall, I like the idea behind Resonance, but my initial gut reaction towards it applying to single use items is a negative one. I'd really have to see how it works in conjunction with the other rules to come to a firm conclusion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wow, I'm late to this party. My thoughts on resonance:

Pros:
1) I really like the idea of resonance for permanent equipment. I've never liked gold as the limiting factor when it comes to equipment, since it discourages players from investing in anything other than themselves and it discourages the GM from providing large treasure troves. Deviating too far from wealth guidelines broke game balance. Using resonance as a "gear limiter" to allow wealth to fluctuate a bit more allows more freedom for both GM and player.

2) Charisma does something for everybody now. Yay!

Cons:
3) I'm much less enthusiastic when it comes to consumables. I am sorta okay with it for wands, but only if it's an "all you can eat" deal where you pay one point of resonance and you can use the wand as much as you like for the day. I am definitely not okay with resonance for single-use items, either scroll or potion. Consumables are critical to keeping the narrative moving when the players are running low on resources, and having a hard "nope, you're done for the day" mechanic is not conductive at all.

4) The limit seems utterly draconian at low levels. A 1st level Wizard with 10 charisma can only cast from one scroll per day before he starts risking failure!? The 15 minute adventuring day problem is already very severe at these levels, and judicious use of consumables is how low-level parties keep the narrative going even in spite of the limited resources of their character/party. The last thing I want is people fumbling a magical item activation and packing it in for the day.

5) The limit seems completely inconsequential at high-levels. Even a charisma-dumping dwarf has 17 points of resonance at 20th level. While I don't mind higher-level characters "growing out" of resonance in a practical sense, it does make it insufficient as a charisma fix.

6) It seems that resonance costs are all the same; 1 point no matter what item you're using. This could have a huge skewing effect on the usefulness of magical items, and could make some magical items impossible to balance because the opportunity cost of resonance alone makes them unusable vendor trash. It encourages spending all your cash on a couple of uber-items rather than a collection of moderate gear, which has the unintended consequence of making the majority of loot drops (by definition, half your loot drops will be below-average!) useless and not worth their resonance cost. Some items will simply never be worth the resonance cost if they have to compete with better items. It also eliminates one of the primary attractions of the system to me; if it doesn't prevent players from getting a couple of uber-items to crush encounters, then I'm back to restricting treasure rewards so they can't afford those items.

As it stands with the information right now, I'm really not seeing the benefits of this system. Maybe it will look better when we get more info, but I have serious concerns here. I had a very similar homebrew for PF1E that I eventually scrapped and threw in the "nice idea on paper, terrible in practice" wastebasket. I still love the idea and would be very happy to see a better implementation in PF2E, but from what we see here this isn't it at all.


graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
People are focusing on the limits that resonance puts on you with respect to using lots of minor magic items, but once we see the power level of new magic items it may turn out to be an improvement on the high end by allowing you to spam several uses out of a really good item that previously would have been limited to one use per day. Imagine something like the Quick Runner's Shirt giving an extra action, or that robe that lets Sorcerers use a spell slot to cast an off-list scroll spell.
For me, I really don't CARE about 'improvement on the high end'. I don't think I'll see higher levels in the new system than now so getting a few extra uses of a sphere of annihilation isn't exactly an exciting thing for me when most of the levels I'll play are limiting me from collecting a pile of quirky minor items... :P

Both items I gave as examples were relatively cheap items with strong effects. Or consider an item that negates a crit as a reaction. Previously it was one per day (then nerfed to one per lifetime of the item), now it can be as many times as you have resonance left.

The Occult Adventures talismans are another good option for cheap but strong items that would benefit from resonance as their limitation rather than uses per day (or lifetime).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:
GM OfAnything wrote:
Healer seems actually fun to play in PF2. Healing an ally doesn't preclude other interesting actions on your turn.
Channeling takes your entire turn (3 actions) - which is actually more than it took in PF1 (when it was just a standard action!) Healing at range takes 2 actions. Only in the case that you start your round adjacent to the ally you want to heal can you actually heal and cast a spell in the same round.

Because thinking tactically about positioning is such a burden to everyone? Seriously.

Like all best decisions it is a trade off. Should the fighter move around to flank? That means the cleric is swinging her scimitar instead of casting a spell in order to heal him. Or he has to wait until next round and the rogue gets a heal instead because she's closer and Kyra really wants to get that bless off.


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Question: Are CLW wands a problem?

Do they screw up the math of healing or is it because they break immersion?

If we're so reliant on having full hp before every battle wouldn't it be best to have full healing between fights or a separate HP pool like Starfinder? Either that or treat HP as an actual resource with some limit so that having healing abilities have an impact.

I personally like Resonance because it solves tracking daily powers across multiple items, give charisma something to do, limits Christmas tree effects,feels really flavorful to me (a more experienced person can get more use out of an item using more force of will), and opens up some design space. However most objections seem to be around our relationship with healing, to the point where I kinda want Stamina in the game.


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Erik Mona says they break immersion, therefor we all must accept that they break immersion.


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So, I was thinking of using resonance and attuning as putting a tiny bit of yourself in the magic item (as a story way to make it fit) and I thought of a piece of fiction that could easily fit that paradigm - spending an attunment on a one shot magic item before/as it was used: "Arrow! Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"


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It's a good mechanic. It gives the GM more latitude about handling magic items. It also helps to limit magical healing. And gives Charisma a nice application.
It could be better, sure, but it's good.

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