Hydras are kind of weird. They either drop a player in a single round or go down without a fight. They also suffer from the action economy problem. You had a 5 v 1 fight. If most of the players win initiative, they're going to cream the single monster. For a party of 4, a CR 5 encounter would be considered a very difficult fight, but very doable if they have no other fights that day. If you also then pulled your punches, it's understandable the fight would feel underwhelming.
The big thing is your players feel good about it and you can adjust for the future.
I briefly mentioned the action economy above. The solution to your problem here is that it's better to use a larger number of weaker or average monsters than one large monster that is tougher than the party. The party has more actions or turns relative to a single monster, so it's easier to focus fire, control, and destroy the monster. If instead of one hydra you had two ogres, or 4 wolves, or 12 orcs, each of those would be a radically different encounter (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if 12 orcs could tear apart a party of level 2 characters. They're pretty tough for their CR) even though each of those is a CR 5 encounter.
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You probably shouldn't try to kill your players at all.
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Never try to kill your players. That is illegal.
As far as their characters go... I recommend not rolling on a table if you’re concerned about stuff like this. If you need to nerf something to make it reasonable, try to describe it as such- a hydra making only one attack per round is probably one with a lot of heads burned off, or fighting amongst itselves for some reason.
The goal is an enjoyable experience. Some risk generally contributes to that, while too much takes away from it. If people are having fun, you’re doing okay.
Don't send an enemy in if you're not willing to have it fight vaguely sensibly. The main thing a 5-headed hydra has going for it is that it can do a load of damage in a full attack. Reduce it to a CR 4 four-headed hydra instead if you want to make it less scary.
As you get more experienced, it becomes easier to tell what your players can handle.
I shouldn't you are right but I feel the world wouldn't just let them do what ever they want enemies should be smart (some at least) and be more of a challenge. I am still new so it seems right I misplayed the HydraYou probably shouldn't try to kill your players at all.
“Players” refers to the real-life human beings playing the game. Trying to kill them would be attempted murder.
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I see now this was a mistake, they went away happy and I felt like I did something wrong as GM. Any advice?
You're fine.
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Action economy is a bigger indicator of challenge then anything else. You should focus on EL over CR and attempt to shoot for EL that is about 1 higher then average character level for normal fights, and 2 or 3 higher for challenging encounters, and 4 or 5 higher for "boss battles".....hmmm EL equal to average character level or 1 lower for easy battles.
With that said, if the CR of any creature involved is 4 or 5 CR higher then the average character level you risk it being something akin to the bad guy showing up to a gun fight with a rocket launcher. On the flip of that, if the CR of the creatures in an encounter are 4 to 5 CR lower the average character level, you risk it going down like a group of black belts fighting full out, no restrictions, against a group of kindergarteners.
also......YMMV
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The right answer is "as hard as they want you to kill them." Some players really enjoy being constantly challenged, with tactical combat and optimized builds being very important to their enjoyment. If you go easy on them, or if there's a string of low-challenge encounters, that type of player might get bored.
There's another type of player that is just in it to see their character's story develop. They might be devastated if their character dies, especially to a random encounter. This type of player might not mind if the combats are easy.
Since you say the players went away happy, it sounds like you made the right decision.
Never try to kill your players. That is illegal.
As far as their characters go... I recommend not rolling on a table if you’re concerned about stuff like this. If you need to nerf something to make it reasonable, try to describe it as such- a hydra making only one attack per round is probably one with a lot of heads burned off, or fighting amongst itselves for some reason.
The goal is an enjoyable experience. Some risk generally contributes to that, while too much takes away from it. If people are having fun, you’re doing okay.
QuidEst's advice is solid, especially the part about not killing the nonfictional people at your table, but I want to elaborate.
Random encounter tables are a tool for the GM, not a substitute for planning the campaign. Sometimes a situation needs a lot of little encounters, so generating them off a table makes sense. But for the important battles, crafting a encounter around the strengths and weaknesses of the party leads to a more interesting battle. If you want to provide a challenge that might kill the party, using a random encounter is sloppy.
In my current campaign, I have a player who seems to believe that encounters happen only when the party is looking for danger. Sometimes he heads out alone on errands through hostile territory, despite having no Stealth nor Bluff. I throw random encounters at him, since I did not plan for his foolishness. Twice I rolled the toughest encounters. The first time, he tried Bluffing with a bluff that would have gotten him killed if believed. I had an NPC save him. The second time, he had learned to run away. Random encounters can teach lessons.
As a GM, it's your job to lose. And as the dice are a bunch of jerks, sometimes, you'll lose more easily than expected. A steamroll battle every now and again is expected.
As to hydras? Their CR comes from the fact that they're doing so many attacks. However, anything solo is at a severe disadvantage due to action economy. A single high-CR enemy might kill somebody, but will almost certainly lose simply because it's getting one action to the party's five, and as monster initiative doesn't really scale, odds are half the party or better is going first.
You probably shouldn't try to kill your players at all.Unless he wants to. If the GM wants a campaign where character death is a big thing, then that's what he should do.
-_-
Do or do not, there is no try.
but if you do, you will need a good plan to get rid of the bodies.
You should be trying to give your players a fun and rewarding challenge. But in my opinion, a GM should never be trying to kill them.
Why would you even need to try and kill them? Just kill them if that's your goal. Gm'ing shouldn't be a me vs. them thing. It is everyone's shared experience.
Do or do not, there is no try.
but if you do, you will need a good plan to get rid of the bodies.
A friend will help you move.
A true friend will help you move bodies.
You probably shouldn't try to kill your players at all.
But if you do, burn the bodies and consecrate the ashes before spreading them at sea.
Much harder to prove in court without bodies.
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The right answer is "as hard as they want you to kill them." Some players really enjoy being constantly challenged, with tactical combat and optimized builds being very important to their enjoyment. If you go easy on them, or if there's a string of low-challenge encounters, that type of player might get bored.
As hard as they want you to kill them was exactly what I was going to say, but PC's yess....never players....but PCs ::tents fingers:: Mound of dead bards...
As with most things in GMing, it's an issue of "reading the room" some groups get bored without constant peril and challenge and others prefer less tension. Sometimes a single group will prefer a challenge in some places and "the opportunity to feel awesome" in a different place, from session to session or even in a single night (Generally harder fights should feel more important).
If your players went away happy, then it's fine. If you're looking for situations in which to raise the ante, plan those around narrative climaxes, so the last thing they need to defeat to prevent the bad thing is real tough, but when the win (and they should) they get to lick their wounds and feel accomplished.
As to hydras? Their CR comes from the fact that they're doing so many attacks. However, anything solo is at a severe disadvantage due to action economy. A single high-CR enemy might kill somebody, but will almost certainly lose simply because it's getting one action to the party's five, and as monster initiative doesn't really scale, odds are half the party or better is going first.
A hydra has a lot of potential to mess up a low level group, if the environment is on its side. They have a swim speed, can pounce out the water and do a full attack sufficient to outright kill a level 2 PC, and they can swim away and use their Fast Healing to recover. You basically have to either be able to kill the hydra in a single round with whoever in the group survives the pounce, or you need to get away from the water entirely.
They suck up table time on activity that, by definition, does not advance the plot.
This rather sells the random encounter concept short. It doesn't have to be "roll a die and summon monsters out of the ether for the PCs to battle"; such encounters can have measurable effects on the non-random portions of the adventure if designed (or improvised) appropriately.
I feel like if you look in Paizo APs you will see random encounters that help establish the setting, foreshadow the plot, or tie into something which has happened/will happen, and those are great. Ones where "now you fight some orcs" which hold no relevance to anything else are to be avoided.
A hydra has a lot of potential to mess up a low level group, if the environment is on its side. They have a swim speed, can pounce out the water and do a full attack sufficient to outright kill a level 2 PC, and they can swim away and use their Fast Healing to recover. You basically have to either be able to kill the hydra in a single round with whoever in the group survives the pounce, or you need to get away from the water entirely.
Like I said. It might kill somebody. But a hydra isn't that tough. Before it gets the chance to retreat, it's probably gonna be subject to six or so PC actions, and it's not likely to live that long. So really, the question is, will the one PC who gets targeted survive that first attack from the hydra? And even if they do go down, at 1d8+3 damage, with an underwhelming to-hit, it's probably not actually going to kill the PC short of a crit.
And even if they do go down, at 1d8+3 damage, with an underwhelming to-hit, it's probably not actually going to kill the PC short of a crit.
Not going to kill them? Well, if it drops them unconscious with the second bite, and then has three more attacks vs their unconscious AC at 1d8+3 each...
You also can't judge the parties effectiveness against CR based on a single encounter, sometimes the party rolls really well and the monsters really poorly, sometimes a parties abilities stack up against a group of monsters or an encounter really well. I used to game with a GM that tried to make a big adjustment after every single encounter. If the party got a couple of crits in early and rolled some well above average saves the next session would be near a TPK.
He also tended to base things off of players strengths. E.g. the one PC optimized for perception gets a 28 on a check at level 2 - therefore everything's stealth needs to be in the upper 20's to low 30's and the DC for skill challenges should be similar.
You're quite right, and I guess I wasn't clear. There are plenty of ways a non-plot-related encounter can benefit a game. But I've got a current GM who likes random encounters for their own sake, and frankly some of them are a waste of game time. My advice to TheLeviathanQuandry could also be summed up as 'have a purpose for your random encounters.'They suck up table time on activity that, by definition, does not advance the plot.This rather sells the random encounter concept short. It doesn't have to be "roll a die and summon monsters out of the ether for the PCs to battle"; such encounters can have measurable effects on the non-random portions of the adventure if designed (or improvised) appropriately.
Good advice! Heck, it's good advice for all encounters; it's just easy to overlook when the word "random" comes into play.
Not going to kill them? Well, if it drops them unconscious with the second bite, and then has three more attacks vs their unconscious AC at 1d8+3 each...
That is a significant if.
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As a GM, it's your job to lose.
Um... No. Very much no.
It is your job, as GM to cooperatively tell a story will your players. First of all, it is bad to get into the win or lose mindset. Second, there is absolutely nothing wrong with forcing the characters to have to retreat. Not. One. Thing.
As for how tough you should be, that depends on the story you are telling.
But generally speaking, the answer to “when should I kill my player’s characters” is: when they make a significant mistake in a life or death situation.
Attack something they shouldn’t, that is capable of crushing them? Crush them, leaving them barely alive. They refuse to flee? Drop them. They can escape from the slavers they get sold to later.
They refuse to work as a team? That is also a mistake. Punish them for it. (Note, however, you should not be arbitrarily upping the difficultly because they DO work as a team.)
The idea is to present -challenges- to your players. They should be using their abilities, otherwise it can get boring, but they should be using them thoughtfully.
Accept from the beginning that you -are- going to screw up on both ends of the spectrum often, when starting out. You will get better with time.
Just never make it personal, on either side.
Like I said. It might kill somebody. But a hydra isn't that tough. Before it gets the chance to retreat, it's probably gonna be subject to six or so PC actions, and it's not likely to live that long.
Let's assume it doesn't get a surprise round; the hydra stays safely in the water until its turn. Then it pounces and takes down one PC.
Four level 2 PCs remain. Let's assume all of them are raging barbarians with greatswords, +7 2d6+10 damage (if any of them are skill monkeys, or healbots, or Magic Missile casters, they'll do a lot less well), and all of them are able to get adjacent and attack it without being taken down by AoO. On average they'll get 2.6 hits and inflict 44 damage, not quite enough to kill it.
The Hydra has a good chance of surviving until its turn. At this point it takes the withdraw action and swims 40 feet away, underwater, and starts healing.
If it can't escape, it can recover 5HP and full-attack again, perhaps killing a second PC, or downing a third if its been dividing up its attacks and not attacking downed foes. The remaining PCs have about one turn to prevent a TPK.
I feel like you should average about 1 character death about every 5 levels. More often and it feels like death is too certain. Less often and it feels like death isn't a concern.
As a GM, it's your job to lose. And as the dice are a bunch of jerks, sometimes, you'll lose more easily than expected. A steamroll battle every now and again is expected.
As to hydras? Their CR comes from the fact that they're doing so many attacks. However, anything solo is at a severe disadvantage due to action economy. A single high-CR enemy might kill somebody, but will almost certainly lose simply because it's getting one action to the party's five, and as monster initiative doesn't really scale, odds are half the party or better is going first.
As a GM your job is to weave a story with other people and have fun with them. Which does not in any way mean you "have to lose", quite the opposite actually.
To the OP: don't worry for the hydras, they are not the best of critters to challange a full group of PCs. Building challenging wencounters requires you to understand your players and what their characters can do. It's a skill you'll have to hone with experience. Just don't trust CR too much, it's just a rough guideline but it often fails to deliever, so don't worry when it happens.
My rule of thumb is to "Maim my players, but stop short of killing them". You have to make them *think* that their characters are going to die, but if they actually die too many times it makes the game less fun over all.
I give my players a few hero points (about 1 each time they gain a level) that they can spend to avoid the massive death that I'm constantly sending their way.