The question with that idea is "how is that then better than taking the monk archetype in the book that gets claws like the shifter that it can flurry with?"
Well, the Menhir Guardian (I think that's the name) isn't able to turn into a mouse and sneak into places, but the Shifter can. The "I can, temporarily, fly, swim, or sneak really well then turn back into a person and fight" seems maybe workable in a similar way that the core rogue is kinda workable?
Sure, the druid can do this better, but maybe my vision for my character is someone who doesn't have spells.
I'm just thinking that maybe it's not worth it to try to consider how well the shifter can fight relative to other full BAB classes (since it's fairly low on the spectrum), but instead shift focus to how well the shifter can infiltrate compared to other full BAB classes.
The "I can, temporarily, fly, swim, or sneak really well then turn back into a person and fight" seems maybe workable in a similar way that the core rogue is kinda workable?
I don't know when it's only one of the three at 5th, 2 at 10 and only all 3 at 15th... Then add in it's only 1 time at 5th, 4 at 10th and 6 at 15th... Then you have to pick between utility and combat from the same limited pool.
Better than a warrior I guess... For perspective, a rogue with minor/major magic can manage that fly/swim/sneak with ease more times than a shifter while maintaining dex based weapon combat + sneak attack.
but instead shift focus to how well the shifter can infiltrate compared to other full BAB classes.Unless a class is phenomenal at scouting which normally involves sending another creature ahead it's not really a role worthy of discussion.
Only in dire circumstances would I ever expect a player to move out of sight in a dungeon.
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In my experience those people die quite a lot.
I see stuff like "okay, you sneak in and unlock the door or gate so everybody else can get in" a lot. That's something for which "you are a mouse" could be pretty handy. Probably not as handy as "you can fly and turn invisible at will" but it's not worthless.
If not properly supported and if they lack the sense to realize when they need to pull out, yes.
I see stuff like "okay, you sneak in and unlock the door or gate so everybody else can get in" a lot. That's something for which "you are a mouse" could be pretty handy. Probably not as handy as "you can fly and turn invisible at will" but it's not worthless.
Hmmm... Is that really something you spend a hours long ability on, knowing you're only getting mere rounds of use out of a per day limited ability? By the time you you can afford to throw away a use, it IS pretty much useless... :P
And how are you unlocking a door or gate as a mouse?
That's what I was wondering. Are you REALLY using a wildshape to spend a round or two as a tiny mouse just so you can turn right back to open the door? That's a 50gp potion of reduce person's worth of use... Myself, I'll bite the bullet and buy the potion to hand off to a small character instead of use a daily use of wildshape for this. Or spend 25gp for a scroll so your favorite caster can do it for you.
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Yeah, I find that when it comes to scouting its best when you either auto succeed (stealth up the wazoo, see also Skilled evolution), don't care about being seen (oh no, the wizard's pet rat was seen in a dungeon fulk of rats!), or auto fail (enemy has high level sensory abilities) if you want to make scouting streamlined for ease of play. A small sized shifter with the Tiger aspect and some core rulebook, Big-6-compatible magic items can pull the first one off with relative ease while maintaining combat viability.
It takes us back to the 'single good build' for raptor/tiger/bull but I say that's at least a solid baseline.
.....of course this all relies on a compliant table and a barbarian who doesn't ruin your shtick because it's "what my character would do" so PFS players prepare for table variation.
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.....of course this all relies on a compliant table and a barbarian who doesn't ruin your shtick because it's "what my character would do" so PFS players prepare for table variation.
I'm currently not seeing how this class would even *work* in PFS. So the 'table variation' at the moment since UW isn't on the AR is 'not at all'.
...and I'm okay with that until it gets closer to an actual 'shifting' ideal.
PFS lets you accumulate XP for doing stuff like GMing so you can start your characters at higher level, right?
If your character pops into existence at level 6, that's probably the best way to play an Oozemorph at least- there are literally no questions about what you can or can't do in your ooze form because you will be able to be a non-ooze for the entire day minus your obligatory 8 hour rest, which you will spend in a bucket.
Except the way it's written right now it'd just be ban-hammered to prevent headaches.
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I'm currently not seeing how this class would even *work* in PFS. So the 'table variation' at the moment since UW isn't on the AR is 'not at all'.
...and I'm okay with that until it gets closer to an actual 'shifting' ideal.
Well if we're talking about the baseline shifter you should be able to reach a functional level of power. Nothing special, perhaps, but the raw stats from Beast Shape II and your animal aspects will let you trundle on through the vast majority of PFS scenarios and still have more to do than a non-Weapon-Master-Handbook fighter or healbot cleric. You even have a few tricks that some folks will call overpowered (like early access pounce) so you'll still feel like a top contributor as long as the majority of the other players aren't longterm forum residents.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that this class is another Swashbuckler, minus being the best dip class in the game. But maybe that's my imagination.
Except the way it's written right now it'd just be ban-hammered to prevent headaches.
I'm about 80% sure that's going to be the case. And it's a real bummer. I'd love to give the archetype a whirl, even in its current state. Being an oozeboi sounds awesome.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that this class is another Swashbuckler, minus being the best dip class in the game. But maybe that's my imagination.
It's a pretty fitting comparison. Both the Shifter and the Swashbuckler are full BAB martials don't do a great job at fulfilling their own fantasy, have narrow build options natively and have an oddly small amount of choices they get to make compared to other paizo classes.
Both can still be reasonably well optimized though.
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The more I think about it, the more I feel that this class is another Swashbuckler, minus being the best dip class in the game. But maybe that's my imagination.It's a pretty fitting comparison. Both the Shifter and the Swashbuckler are full BAB martials don't do a great job at fulfilling their own fantasy, have narrow build options natively and have an oddly small amount of choices they get to make compared to other paizo classes.
Both can still be reasonably well optimized though.
And honestly, both are ripe for gimmick builds that poke fun at the concept. Like a high Str, Cha dumping 'buckler that uses a greataxe to power attack and a spiked gauntlet to parry. Or that Scythe shifter build that I posted upthread. Vanilla swashbucklers also make pretty decent archers. Likewise, shifters could do decently with Dervish Dance. We might have a Shantae build at long last!
....actually, a human shifter that dips fighter for proficiency in bows could make for a pretty decent archer. Tiger for dex, bull for strength, monkey for large bow on a wildshape form with hands? Must investigate.
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We might have a Shantae build at long last!
Please don't sully mai waifu's name. She's a half-janni bard archetype that grants beast shape and monstrous body as special abilities and has feats that allow her to use charisma to hit and damage with her hair.
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This isn't even close to a thread record its not even within 1%
[And honestly, both are ripe for gimmick builds that poke fun at the concept.
Gip, gentlegoblin adventurer is pretty much this for me. He's a goblin that used the pictures from a manners book and his own powerful mind to become the best gentleman he could.
Which is why he uses a morningstar.
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We might have a Shantae build at long last!Please don't sully mai waifu's name. She's a half-janni bard archetype that grants beast shape and monstrous body as special abilities and has feats that allow her to use charisma to hit and damage with her hair.
See now you're tempting me to go off on a build-a-waifu tangent and I would drag this whole thread down with me. I'll spare us the debauchery and simply commend your superior approach. While also asking how you pull off the hair whip. Perhaps we can discuss other characters as well, like a few of my favorite...
Bah. Focus, Rosc, focus! Shifter stuff. As mentioned before, I think the class is a great fit for automatic bonus progression, considering that it solves the issue of natural armor and enhancement bonuses hogging up the neck slot. But if you're not in a game with that going on, then hopefully you're in a party with someone who can cast Barkskin. In a party, or maybe even PFS, owning an extend rod and a 2nd level pearl of power could be a powerful midgame investment, considering the 50,000 gold worth of stats that you've giving yourself for a fraction of the cost.
Sure, you're depending on a caster, but at the very least some of your animal forms grant you monster advantages that other martial classes would have to jump through hoops to get.
On a somewhat related note, I am really interested in seeing how Paizo handles the iconic's stats when the book and class are checked out for PFS. Their post-Core pregens have been pretty on point. So I wonder what they'll do with her?
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Barkskin isn t on enough spell lists to assume a caster, and is too expensive and short to really be viable on an item
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Barkskin isn t on enough spell lists to assume a caster, and is too expensive and short to really be viable on an item
And most classes who do have that spells can out-shift the Shifter.
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Barkskin isn't on enough spell lists to assume a caster, and is too expensive and short to really be viable on an item
Barkskin is less common, I'll give you that one. However, if you do have a reliable source (home game) then an Extended Barkskin is a great way to take on a dungeon. It isn't perfect, but that's why you pick up a pearl or two. In the end, it's still a huge discount on money spent.
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Really instead of that weird monk bonus to AC and conditional wisdom bonus they should have a scaling natural armor bonus. Either it starts as +1 or +2 and scales up to +5 to +8.
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The Phytokineticist's "flesh of wood" progression would probably have sufficed, +1 enhancement bonus to NA, increments by 1 every 3 levels.
But I suspect they wanted to make the Shifter depend on at least one mental statistic, hence the weird monk thing. But any time you get a bad will-save martial, you're probably not going to see a lot of people dumping Wis. Though I guess the party is less afraid of the Shifter getting mind-controlled than the Barbarian or the Fighter (this is not a good thing for the shifter.)
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If not properly supported and if they lack the sense to realize when they need to pull out, yes.
Something I found to be a problem back in 2nd edition AD&D, where I liked to play aquatic elves, is that having an ability that allows one member of the party to go into places where the rest of the characters can't follow (whether it be stealth or flight or swimming or cyberhacking into virtual space or astral projecting or whatever) in a game in which encounters are generally balanced for a party of four, is that the character who goes off alone is really likely to die a lot.
There's also the issue of it creating a situation where most of the players are sitting around and waiting for captain-stealths-a-lot or the computer hacker or whatever to finish their solo mission, to which they really can't contribute.
That said, a shifter turning into a mouse is hardly the first case of an ability that makes it easy to split the party (heck, a spider climb spell is just as good as getting you in trouble, without the rest of your party as backup).
This isn't even close to a thread record its not even within 1%
And now I'm wondering if there are any decent grapple builds for shifters.
This isn't even close to a thread record its not even within 1%And now I'm wondering if there are any decent grapple builds for shifters.
well you can turn into a bear...
Bear hugs?
Bear hugs?
But what if the shifter bear hugs a succubus?
Now the thread might do some decent word count.
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Isn't it funny how if you mention Succubi Rysky just "arrives"?
Normally you have to say it thrice though.
It is a Beetlejuice thing
Id say Oozemorph shifter has potential. So long as you manage to get an amulet of the fist +5 you can make a dual wielder build with 4 main hand attacks 3 off hand attacks and 4 secondary natural weapon. Thats a lot of strikes.
I'm finding the Oozemorph has potential as a dip (with a heavy dose of RAI to clear up all the mechanics)...but there isn't much reason to stay with it for more than a few levels.
I'm finding the Oozemorph has potential as a dip (with a heavy dose of RAI to clear up all the mechanics)...but there isn't much reason to stay with it for more than a few levels.
Obviously you stop leveling oozemorph the moment you got your last natural attack and go spec in something else perhaps even a spellcasting class to gain invisibility or healing
I decided to go Metamorph/Alchemist after two levels of Oozemorph....it just doesn't really offer anything that versatile after 2nd level.
We're starting Ironfang Invasion this weekend and one of my sons will play a Shifter. Looking forward to it.
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I decided to go Metamorph/Alchemist after two levels of Oozemorph....it just doesn't really offer anything that versatile after 2nd level.
As it's written, the 'best' way to play an oozemorph is to take a shapechanger and 100% ignore blob form. For instance, be kitsune and all you 'lose' is your fox form. That way you don't have to figure out HOW the blob works unless you find an antimagic field.
That said, you might be better off just going straight Metamorph/Alchemist.
I feel like the latest you'd want to get out of the Oozemorph is after level 6, since that's the point where "sometimes you're an ooze" stops mattering and you have 3 primary natural attacks. Two more levels would get you DR 12/Slashing and an extra point of AC, but DR 8/Slashing is probably okay. The "I am a human 18 hours a day, but I sleep in a bucket" feels like you're at least attempting to play the archetype in a way that "I am a kitsune so have no drawbacks" does not.
I wonder if there's anywhere interesting to go with the Oozemorph after level 6; maybe I need to go back and look over the prestige classes. I wonder if there's anything good that's about being sneaky so "I can just slide under doors" would be an asset. Then you could finally get disguise as a class skill!
They need to make a dragon based shifter or give it an erata thatd give it bonus feats or something else. As it stands its barely better then fighter.