| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't gain all or any abilities from the ooze type. You only gain what they said you get. Else why would they say you gain abilities that are in the ooze type?
I don't think you can say that you gain undefined movement types. You aren't pointed to a form.
If you could gain undefined movement types then you gain all other undefined abilities. Your base type tends to breathe with a mouth. An undefined form does not gain a mouth nor does it gain abilities from the ooze type that lets it breathe. Thus, you die upon taking the level.
If you take the ability as only altering your base form, then you can still breathe, see, hear, and move.
It seems wrong to read the ability such that you gain undefined abilities. Nothing else in the game is read that way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I'm still trying to wrap my head around this archetype....so If I was a Suli/Ooze shifter....could I use my elemental assault power while in Ooz form with Morphic weapon ?
Y'know, I have a L2 Suli waiting to form... perhaps this may be a thing for them.
Will have to see if it gets approved after it gets fixed somehow.
......if you take the racial feats and traits that allow you to break up elemental assault....I don't see why it wouldn't work....
Somehow I'm thinking Andriod could be a fun idea as well :P
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I remember hearing in promotions for the Shifter that it was to be as the paladin is for cleric to druid. A more combat focussed class.
So if we take Druid, we have it's wild empathy, woodland stride a level later, trackless step 2 levels later, and we wildshape the same level. Really the only thing the Druid has over us is Spells and nature's bond.
Okay so full bab and d10 cool that's like the paladin to cleric, and now we have a defensive buff, that's nice for our job as a combat guy. We also get a little themed buff ability and track. BUT THAT'S IT.
Look at levels 5+, do you realize that the shifter doesn't gain any NEW features in these levels, Just slight expansions to existing stuff by giving you the ability to take something you could have had at earlier levels. And it's choices like these that I feel "feel bad" Like getting your 4th pick at lv15 of an option you've had since lv1 does not feel like a fun awesome thing. Getting something you couldn't do before feels good.
Like Druid has nature sense, Venom Immunity, A thousand faces, Timeless body, Resist nature's lure and at will shaping as a capstone. Plus it's wild shaping gets better, so getting the next stage feels good, now you have bigger animals, now you have plants, now you have elementals, like each upgrade is more than just extra hours or uses, as you go up you're getting to do things you couldn't do before.
Paladin's while being front loaded as well (okay so lots of good stuff more than shifter but at least smite and it's upgrades are like the aspect and wild shape, defensive instinct is like divine grace being a defensive ability) the paladin still gets cool abilities as they go, more aura's team buffs, becoming a bastion of good, WHILE getting spells and a divine bond.
So that's why it feel really bad, even if the best case makes it an okay beatstick numberwise, you're not getting anything for the loss of spells.
Also look at ranger as a paladin for druid comparison. got the full bab upgrade like paladin, keeps the highly reduced casting like paladin, gets a weaker pet symbolic of druid's pet similar to paladin, gets Favored enemy like smite and bonus feats. The ranger is the paladin for druids.
Even look at cleric to warpriest, less spells and downgraded domains got them swift casting and extra feats. They were compensated for their loss.
But the shifter? Getting a highly restricted version of animal focus and claws does not fit within the balance we've seen when comparing to other classes. This isn't the shifting paladin of druids, this is a druid that gave up versatility, spells, all their flavorful and fitting high leveled abilities and their pet for full bab and a pretty bad combat buff. That trade just ain't fair.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if people have seen the first (and currently sole) UW FAQ it pertains to shifter's edge.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Druid is to the Shifter what a Cleric is to the CRB Fighter. Comparing the Shifter to the Paladin is almost an insult to the Paladin class. Beastkin Beserker Barbarians fit that statement MUCH better than Shifters do.
Something new I realized about Beastkin Beserker Barbarians? They're not restricted to singular animals, but to animal "types." This means that a Beastkin Beserker Barbarian can choose "snakes" as a type, and gain access to a wide array of forms (Tiny to Gargantuan) and abilities (low light vision, scent, climb speed, swim speed, grab, constrict, poison, etc.) all off of that one choice.
Furthermore, because their shifting is tied to their Rage mechanic, they can shift far more easily to solve problems, as opposed to the Shifter (or even the Druid) who is basically penalized when using Wild Shape for utility. Plus, this shifting is done as a free action. Get some rage cycling and you can turn into a tiny spitting snake, move through a small hole in the wall, then turn into a Large Emperor Cobra and bite someone on the other side before poisoning them to death. Or instead of a Large Emperor Cobra + Poison, you could become a Large Anaconda Constrictor Snake, and hit them with Grab + Constrict. Can the Shifter do that?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Druid is to the Shifter what a Cleric is to the CRB Fighter. Comparing the Shifter to the Paladin is almost an insult to the Paladin class. Beastkin Beserker Barbarians fit that statement MUCH better than Shifters do.
Something new I realized about Beastkin Beserker Barbarians? They're not restricted to singular animals, but to animal "types." This means that a Beastkin Beserker Barbarian can choose "snakes" as a type, and gain access to a wide array of forms (Tiny to Gargantuan) and abilities (low light vision, scent, climb speed, swim speed, grab, constrict, poison, etc.) all off of that one choice.
Furthermore, because their shifting is tied to their Rage mechanic, they can shift far more easily to solve problems, as opposed to the Shifter (or even the Druid) who is basically penalized when using Wild Shape for utility. Plus, this shifting is done as a free action. Get some rage cycling and you can turn into a tiny spitting snake, move through a small hole in the wall, then turn into a Large Emperor Cobra and bite someone on the other side before poisoning them to death. Or instead of a Large Emperor Cobra + Poison, you could become a Large Anaconda Constrictor Snake, and hit them with Grab + Constrict. Can the Shifter do that?
The most interesting part about that archetype is that it stacks with Invulnerable Rager. Combine both archetypes, and you have what the Shifter should be.
After some reflection, I like the shifter, but it needs more aspects. Because most of the current ones only give abilities available in the beast shape line or else bonus feats that don't mesh too well with other options. The real gems to me are the aspects which give abilities druids (and to a lesser extent, feral hunter) do not get.
Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant. Combining this with the Snake minor aspect and heavy magical augmentation (Anaconda's Coils, Ring of Eloquence, Bestial Rags (bull), wild armor) could make a solid reach tank and still do decent damage. Biggest limit is that grab doesn't work on huge creatures, which severely limits the damage you can do.
Otherwise, Wolverine gives rage which druids need a domain (and an archetype to give them access to it) to get, Monkey gives a tail (which has use in magic items that require holding, I'm thinking Padma Blossom for a number of immunities while using a 2-handed weapon or weapon+shield). Hopefully new aspects will give new abilities as well.
I also hope we get a subdomain-type option for shifter aspects, so you can be a different sized or themed creature for those aspects (tiny monkeys or constrictor snakes).
Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant.Are you sure? It's a natural attack and polymorph gives you your form's natural attacks. I've seen this argument before but I'm not entirely convinced.
There's a number of forms you can take that can grant you 15 foot reach and more so. The allosaurus has that type of reach AND pounce. And if you don't want to pounce turn into a quickwood and attack everything within 60 feet of you with your roots and canopy creeper has 100 foot reach with their vine tendrils.
Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant.Are you sure? It's a natural attack and polymorph gives you your form's natural attacks. I've seen this argument before but I'm not entirely convinced.
It is an extraordinary ability that grants a natural attack. Beast Shape says what extraordinary abilities are granted and none of them are tongue. I understand the other side of this (and polymorph rules are confusing) but even if Druids get the reach, the fact that shifters aren't grappled while using the tongue is still a slight win over druid (even if it is more disappointing. Because the not-grappled part is part of the ex ability and not the natural attack.
There's a number of forms you can take that can grant you 15 foot reach and more so. The allosaurus has that type of reach AND pounce. And if you don't want to pounce turn into a quickwood and attack everything within 60 feet of you with your roots and canopy creeper has 100 foot reach with their vine tendrils.Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant.Are you sure? It's a natural attack and polymorph gives you your form's natural attacks. I've seen this argument before but I'm not entirely convinced.
None of them are giant frog.
Which means that as more shifter aspects are released, more of them might have a slight benefit over a druid using the same form. The class will never be stronger than a druid because it has far fewer options, but if there are some goodies druids and feral hunters don't get but shifters do, I think there is hope for the class. And for now I am content with being a giant frog better than any druid.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't gain all or any abilities from the ooze type. You only gain what they said you get. Else why would they say you gain abilities that are in the ooze type?
Fluidic Body states "This is treated as a polymorph effect" and "An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob". Polymorph is what states you gain form based abilities of the forms you take. You don't get to pick form based abilities from a form you don't have; ie your old race.
I don't think you can say that you gain undefined movement types. You aren't pointed to a form.
It gives you a new base form. Land speed if tied to your form. There is NO other RAW answer than undefined. To say it has a land speed is to make a houserule to fill in what they didn't say. I don't see how you can say there is ANY basis for a defined speed.
And you ARE pointed to a form: "An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob". Unless you're saying "base form" isn't a form?
If you could gain undefined movement types then you gain all other undefined abilities. Your base type tends to breathe with a mouth. An undefined form does not gain a mouth nor does it gain abilities from the ooze type that lets it breathe. Thus, you die upon taking the level.
Non-sequitur: you are mixing form and type abilities. speed is form, breathing is type.
If you take the ability as only altering your base form, then you can still breathe, see, hear, and move.
Yes, and you take on the new forms speed which is N/A... And you take on the senses of the new form which are N/A so... What is your point again?
It seems wrong to read the ability such that you gain undefined abilities. Nothing else in the game is read that way.
It's not about right or wrong, it's about what it is under the rules. We aren't talking about a grey area here: polymorph is quite clear that you gain a forms land speed. There is NO other valid way to read it under the rules that you have a land speed: the ability was written poorly as it forgets to set the basic aspects of a new form given.
If we just start taking abilities from the original race, what is the cut off? Why doesn't a Kasatha keep Multi-Armed? A monkey goblin keep prehensile tail? Wyvarans Slapping Tail? Tieflings Vestigial wings, hooves or Scaled Skin? These and land speed are ALL form based abilities and Fluidic Body doesn't mention gaining any of them from your old race.
There's a number of forms you can take that can grant you 15 foot reach and more so. The allosaurus has that type of reach AND pounce. And if you don't want to pounce turn into a quickwood and attack everything within 60 feet of you with your roots and canopy creeper has 100 foot reach with their vine tendrils.Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant.Are you sure? It's a natural attack and polymorph gives you your form's natural attacks. I've seen this argument before but I'm not entirely convinced.None of them are giant frog.
Which means that as more shifter aspects are released, more of them might have a slight benefit over a druid using the same form. The class will never be stronger than a druid because it has far fewer options, but if there are some goodies druids and feral hunters don't get but shifters do, I think there is hope for the class. And for now I am content with being a giant frog better than any druid.
If you really want to be a frog and have 15 foot reach natural attack you can already do so with a druid at level 4, 4 levels before the shifter has it. And you can then grab with it 2 levels before the shifter even gets the tongue. The only thing you get out of it that's superior is that you get 1d10+str damage with it at 15th level and it has a 30 foot reach, 2d6+str damage if you spend a feat on it. But you're just limited to 2 attacks in that form.
From the product page:
Great, now that the FAQ page is up, we can add a few other UW questions to the FAQ queue (I'm looking at you oozemorph).
Hopefully the oozemorph gets reworked to remove 'table variation' and make it clear what it can and can do and what it's base abilities actually are.
If you really want to be a frog and have 15 foot reach natural attack you can already do so with a druid at level 4, 4 levels before the shifter has it. And you can then grab with it 2 levels before the shifter even gets the tongue. The only thing you get out of it that's superior is that you get 1d10+str damage with it at 15th level and it has a 30 foot reach, 2d6+str damage if you spend a feat on it. But you're just limited to 2 attacks in that form.There's a number of forms you can take that can grant you 15 foot reach and more so. The allosaurus has that type of reach AND pounce. And if you don't want to pounce turn into a quickwood and attack everything within 60 feet of you with your roots and canopy creeper has 100 foot reach with their vine tendrils.Frog is my favorite of them, since it gives a natural attack with 15' reach that the beast shape spells do not grant.Are you sure? It's a natural attack and polymorph gives you your form's natural attacks. I've seen this argument before but I'm not entirely convinced.None of them are giant frog.
Which means that as more shifter aspects are released, more of them might have a slight benefit over a druid using the same form. The class will never be stronger than a druid because it has far fewer options, but if there are some goodies druids and feral hunters don't get but shifters do, I think there is hope for the class. And for now I am content with being a giant frog better than any druid.
Assuming beast shape grants tongue (despite it being an extraordinary ability which beast shape doesn't say you get) you still have the benefit of not being grappled when using it (again, that is part of an extraordinary ability beast shape doesn't grant).
Something new I realized about Beastkin Beserker Barbarians? They're not restricted to singular animals, but to animal "types." This means that a Beastkin Beserker Barbarian can choose "snakes" as a type, and gain access to a wide array of forms (Tiny to Gargantuan) and abilities (low light vision, scent, climb speed, swim speed, grab, constrict, poison, etc.) all off of that one choice.I'm not convinced. They gain "a spiritual connection to a specific kind of creature with the animal type (such as a badger or a triceratops)." If "snake" worked, the second example would be "dinosaurs" or maybe "ceratopsians."
I'd say it's up to interpretation, since it doesn't make sense that you'd form a savage report with badgers and be completely SOL when it comes to dire badgers. Similarly, what kind of snake charmer can charm Emperor Cobras but not King Cobras?
Doesn't really make sense for it to be otherwise, but I can definitely see the confusion, since "kind" is undefinied. But it does use "type" later on in the sentence, so I'd go with that unless told otherwise.
You can FAQ it if you want, but given how poorly/lackluster the Shifter ended up, I doubt that'll go over well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't gain all or any abilities from the ooze type. You only gain what they said you get. Else why would they say you gain abilities that are in the ooze type?Fluidic Body states "This is treated as a polymorph effect" and "An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob". Polymorph is what states you gain form based abilities of the forms you take. You don't get to pick form based abilities from a form you don't have; ie your old race.
I don't think you can say that you gain undefined movement types. You aren't pointed to a form.It gives you a new base form. Land speed if tied to your form. There is NO other RAW answer than undefined. To say it has a land speed is to make a houserule to fill in what they didn't say. I don't see how you can say there is ANY basis for a defined speed.
And you ARE pointed to a form: "An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob". Unless you're saying "base form" isn't a form?
If you could gain undefined movement types then you gain all other undefined abilities. Your base type tends to breathe with a mouth. An undefined form does not gain a mouth nor does it gain abilities from the ooze type that lets it breathe. Thus, you die upon taking the level.Non-sequitur: you are mixing form and type abilities. speed is form, breathing is type.
If you take the ability as only altering your base form, then you can still breathe, see, hear, and move.Yes, and you take on the new forms speed which is N/A... And you take on the senses of the new form which are N/A so... What is your point again?
It seems wrong to read the ability such that you gain undefined abilities. Nothing else in the game is read that way.It's not about right or wrong, it's about what it is under the rules. We aren't talking about a grey area here: polymorph is quite clear that you gain a...
Polymorph never changes your creature type.
Fluidic body does not change your creature type.
Your undefined ooze has no mouth. Your base creature type needs a mouth to breathe.
Ergo, you can't breathe and die immediately upon taking a level in oozemorphs under your interpretation.
reductio ad absurdum, the ability merely alters your base race's abilities. Thus you can still breathe because your type's ability to breathe with a mouth is altered to work in oozeform.
With a defined form, you gain all the mechanisms that allow for breathing because that is part of the physical shape. If it is undefined, then you don't gain those apparatuses and immediately suffocate.
Fluidic form alters your base form and is thus influenced by starting race. I've talked about this archetype with my fellow rules lawyer friends and none of them assume your non-functional interpretation. It's just not how rules are read. If you can point out any similar rules in PF that generate an unplayable error, please provide them.
Yeah, that and the Arcehtype’s author and Mark have both commented to the effect of “yes, the archetype functions, you’re kinda overthinking things here.”
Obviously it's meant to function. But there's a lot of variable space for inventing a way to make it function to get around the clear RAW polymorph rules "no movement speed" issue.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's more of an issue of the author writing something but not realizing the implications.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rysky it is a raw issue.
Lets use an absurd argument.
We have an ability that lets us turn into lots of different types of fruit, because "reasons".
The ability says "You become whatever color the fruit is".
So we turn into a banana, we become yellow, an apple we can go green or red.
Now what happens if we get given an ability that functions exactly the same as our turn into a fruit ability, but it allows us to turn into a "proto-fruit". Now the proto-fruit is something that is not codified in the rules. What color do we become?
We can house rule and say we stay whatever color we were, but that is going against the raw of "You become the color of the fruit."
The ability does not function as written.
~~~~~~~~~~
Now to the less absurd.
We have polymorph which says we gain the speed of whatever we become. The speed of a protoblob is not defined, and we do become this protoblob as a polymorph effect.
What is our speed? It is the speed of the protoblob.
What is the speed of the protoblob? Undefined.
By Raw we now have an undefined speed. We know by RAI we keep our speed, but the RAW does not allow for that.
Yes it is broke, and there are ways to rule so it is not broken, but those do not follow the letter of the law that your speed comes from your form.
If the ability is question said "You turn into a protoblob with all the atributes of your preblob form, but unable to hold items etc" then the ability would work. At present we turn into a protoblob with no definition
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That’s not a RAW issue, that’s people overthinking something.
Oh it is, as much as you seem hell bent on deflecting any blame for any failings away from the author in this case they did fail.
It is a deeply confusing and unclear archetype that requires hand waving to work currently and obviously misses its RAI massively.
Either you can't move at all as an ooze or you get your base forms movement. The right answer is by no means obvious and neither seems RAI since Gathlain oozes would be able to fly following the latter.
One example of many as to why the archetype is clumsily written. I love it, I've even made one myself, but it is clumsily, no doubt.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Polymorph never changes your creature type.
Never said/implied it did.
Fluidic body does not change your creature type.
Never said/implied it did.
Your undefined ooze has no mouth. Your base creature type needs a mouth to breathe.
Where does it say this: remember you stated you only lose/gain what it SAYS you do. And I don't recall mouth as a requirement for any type: Take Astomoi one. NO mouth or eyes but manages to eat and breathe.
ONCE AGAIN: form and type abilities are different and you CONTINUALLY try to conflate one with the other. TYPES cover things like breathing: "Animals breathe, eat, and sleep." What they DO NOT COVER is speed. NO type entries lists base speeds as those go under individual forms.
Ergo, you can't breathe and die immediately upon taking a level in oozemorphs under your interpretation.
Ergo, you are purposely misreading both my replies and the rules at large by conflating form and type abilities. Either that or you don't understand the core polymorph rules.
reductio ad absurdum, the ability merely alters your base race's abilities.
NO: "An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob". It comes out and states a new base form: full stop. The result of that requires a change in base speed to the new forms base speed which is undefined. It's how the rules work for polymorph. It just is.
Thus you can still breathe because your type's ability to breathe with a mouth is altered to work in oozeform.
BREATHING is a function of type NOT FORM. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE stop with YOUR 'reductio ad absurdum' that doesn't even have a factual basis.
With a defined form, you gain all the mechanisms that allow for breathing because that is part of the physical shape. If it is undefined, then you don't gain those apparatuses and immediately suffocate.
NO,NO,NO,NO,NO!!! With a defined TYPE you gain breathing, NOT form. PLEASE stop it with this breathing is tied to form nonsense.
Fluidic form alters your base form and is thus influenced by starting race.
Not as written.
In addition, if you houserule it that way, you run into the logical inconsistency of the old form's limbs, or lack thereof, influencing the blobs speed which is pretty nonsensical. My merfolk blob moves 5' because no legs unless I have a wide tail which means a 15' speed: why would that matter to a featureless blob?
I've talked about this archetype with my fellow rules lawyer friends and none of them assume your non-functional interpretation.
But I'm not the one using assumptions. I'm just applying the existing rules to this new archetype and as written it doesn't have a move speed for its blob form. It's an assumption/leap of logic that gets you to anything else.
It's just not how rules are read.
PLEASE point out the rules that allows you to retain your old forms land speed when you gain a new base form. I'm curious to see this gem.
If you can point out any similar rules in PF that generate an unplayable error, please provide them.
You're making a flawed assumption that a new rule has to be correct starting out when we've seen countless errors in the past. Just look at ACG and all the errata/FAQ's. You can't start the debate with the preconceived notion that the rules MUST be right and you have to find a way to make them work. That ignores the possibility that what was intended doesn't match what actually made print.
I read the new material then apply the existing rules to see if it makes sense. The only time I would form a judgment is if there where 2 ways to read a rule and one way was unworkable: I'd say the workable one is most likely the right one. In this case, I onlt see one reading: there is no other reading IMO that follows the existing rules.
I reject your interpretation. I believe oozemorphs can breathe. Please be consistent with your application of rules.
I reject your interpretation. I believe oozemorphs can breathe. Please be consistent with your application of rules.??
He said... looks like four separate times in that last post that the blobby shifter can still breathe using the rules as written.
Which under his interpretation of the rules is inconsistent.
Actually his oozemorph can't even exist. He says it gets undefined abilities. Your game just freezes then and the session is over.
Also oozemorph never says you gain the ooze type only that you are treated like an ooze type and your base type for ability interactions.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I reject your interpretation. I believe oozemorphs can breathe. Please be consistent with your application of rules.
Please provide proof that breathing is a form based ability and/or that mouths are required to breathe. I'd also ask YOU to be "consistent with your application of rules" as you keep trying to apply type based abilities, breathing, to forms. SO can you STOP being disingenuous about breathing? It has nothing to do with this and I have no idea why you're clinging to it like a dog with a bone: it's 100% irrelevant/meaningless to the debate.
Type dictates life function and oozemorph doesn't change type. Note speed is NOWHERE under type, so "consistent with your application of rules" is followed.
TYPES [NOT forms]
ABERRATION
Aberrations breathe, eat, and sleep.
ANIMAL
Animals breathe, eat, and sleep.
CONSTRUCT
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
DRAGON
Dragons breathe, eat, and sleep.
FEY
Fey breathe, eat, and sleep.
HUMANOID
Monstrous humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
OOZE
Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.
OUTSIDER
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
PLANT
Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.
UNDEAD
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
VERMIN
Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I reject your interpretation. I believe oozemorphs can breathe. Please be consistent with your application of rules.??
He said... looks like four separate times in that last post that the blobby shifter can still breathe using the rules as written.Which under his interpretation of the rules is inconsistent.
Actually his oozemorph can't even exist. He says it gets undefined abilities. Your game just freezes then and the session is over.
Also oozemorph never says you gain the ooze type only that you are treated like an ooze type and your base type for ability interactions.
1- No, it's perfectly consistent. Oozes breathe. Besides, polymorphing into a water-breathing creature doesn't remove your ability to breathe air.
2- You are starting to see the problem. EDIT: So what? The ooze form doesn't need anything. It gets no abilities. Polymorph is clear on what you keep and what you lose. And you clearly lose your land speed. The problem arises that you don't gain a new one.
3- What does this have to do with anything?
I'm fairly certain humans can't breathe through their skin. Mouths/unarmed/bites are part of form.
You're wrong. About this. About undefined abilities. About everything. Your own interpretation contradicts itself.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fairly certain humans can't breathe through their skin. Mouths/unarmed/bites are part of form.
You're wrong. About this. About undefined abilities. About everything. Your own interpretation contradicts itself.
Again with the breathing? Seriously?
So tell me, please, what is your speed when you're an oozes, if everyone else is wrong? I do want to know.
I'm fairly certain humans can't breathe through their skin. Mouths/unarmed/bites are part of form.
You're wrong. About this. About undefined abilities. About everything. Your own interpretation contradicts itself.
Again with the breathing? Seriously?
So tell me, please, what is your speed when you're an oozes, if everyone else is wrong? I do want to know.
Fluid form alters your base form. Your movement speeds and special form of movements from your race apply in oozeform.
Yes that means some oozemorphs can have fly, swim, and faster climb speeds than other oozemorphs based on starting race.
Any alternative interpretation of the rules you want to use must not produce errors. There is a very clear specific ability over general polymorph rules reading that leads to functional rules.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fairly certain humans can't breathe through their skin. Mouths/unarmed/bites are part of form.
You're wrong. About this. About undefined abilities. About everything. Your own interpretation contradicts itself.
Again with the breathing? Seriously?
So tell me, please, what is your speed when you're an oozes, if everyone else is wrong? I do want to know.
Fluid form alters your base form. Your movement speeds and special form of movements from your race apply in oozeform.
Yes that means some oozemorphs can have fly, swim, and faster climb speeds than other oozemorphs based on starting race.
An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight.
....
This is treated as a polymorph effect.
Please do tell, where do you see that the archetype "alters" your base form? It says quite clearly that it completely replaces it.
Your interpretation is a non starter. It doesn't work and there is a working interpretation. I need not explain more. It's a permissive rules set. You can read the ability the way I am or you can read it such that it is nonsense.
It's disingenuous to even read it the nonsense way much less argue for that interpretation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Your interpretation is a non starter. It doesn't work and there is a working interpretation. I need not explain more. It's a permissive rules set. You can read the ability the way I am or you can read it such that it is nonsense.
It's disingenuous to even read it the nonsense way much less argue for that interpretation.
It is nonsense. That is the whole point. Someone messed up when editing it and now it doesn't make sense. We just want some clarification. Because as much as I would like it to actually make sense, it doesn't. I in now way think that's what they meant, but the editors are humans, and humans make mistakes.
Also, what does a 'permissive rules set' have to do with anything? You keep pulling in strange points to support your arguments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
So if you had a class feature to turn into that troll which explicitly said you gain the troll's speed, would you say that that class feature doesn't have a working interpretation?
Edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to trap you or anything. I just want to map your thought process and where the disconnect with graystone is located.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm fairly certain humans can't breathe through their skin.
Breathing is 100% relevant to this argument.
It's disingenuous to even read it the nonsense way much less argue for that interpretation.
There IS no other read that follows the existing rules. That's kind of been the point from the start. You're coming in with a bias: that the new rules MUST make sense. You ignore the fact that errors can and have been made in the past.
it boils down to there being NO rule that allows a new form to keep its old land speed without some kind of special exemption: oozemorph has no such exception. PLEASE stay on point and refute this instead of going off into the weeds about moot things like breathing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
Well, it clearly (hypothetically) does exist, because it takes up a page in the bestiary, has ability scores, saves, BAB, and abilities. It just doesn't have a speed. What, then, if it shows up in an AP you're running? What if someone polymorphs into that troll? How fast could they move?
Now replace 'Troll' with 'Ooze.' This is the problem.
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
A less radical interpretation would be "It cannot move in that form conventionally, as it doesn't have a speed, so it readies to attack the designated enemy." I mean, it's not difficult to ascertain that a lack of a speed means they don't have one.
Similarly, Undead/Constructs lacking a Constitution score doesn't mean we can't have them in the game because they don't have a defined Constitution score. Same goes for other identical situations.
