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So assume your new form and then have a party member put braces of armor on you.
Only works if your new form is avian or biped or some kind of monkey. :P
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Only works if your new form is avian or biped or some kind of monkey. :PSo assume your new form and then have a party member put braces of armor on you.
if you're going to go all raw that the mage armor shuts off because it's an armor bonus (as opposed to, you know, the armor bonus not working because the armor isn't here anymore) , then a polymorphed critter isn't limited to the same slots that an animal companion is because they're not an animal companion.
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Only works if your new form is avian or biped or some kind of monkey. :PSo assume your new form and then have a party member put braces of armor on you.
if you're going to go all raw that the mage armor shuts off because it's an armor bonus (as opposed to, you know, the armor bonus not working because the armor isn't here anymore) , then a polymorphed critter isn't limited to the same slots that an animal companion is because they're not an animal companion.
Gooooooood... I wanted you to say it! :)
Edit: your PFS schwartz being longer than mine... :P
Edit: your PFS schwartz being longer than mine... :P
Mind you, I believe that bracers of armor work and you can't put non slotted stuff (from the full list) on a polymorphed critter because i'm more simulationist than raw is law.
It's also kind of a null point considering that the wand vending machine cranks out mage armor right behind CLW.
Oh, they automated the Mage Armor wand process?
Huh.
Will probably need to look into picking one up, then...
Back on thread-track: Mage Armor has a duration of hours/level (meaning a wand only gives one hour of Mage Armor).
It's STILL 60 times longer than a single use of an Aspect would last...
So would the Menhir Guardians "Wild Flurry" help the base shifter some ?
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Okay, so I've put some time and thought into the shifter, and after reverse engineering its creation process (mostly via speculation) I've come to really appreciate it.
The idea of claws, aspect, and wild shape create a smooth progression towards your class fantasy. You begin with at-will claws without any hoops to jump through. No feat tax, no oddball ranger style, no Mutagen requirements, and no Sorcerer dips. It's as much a blessing as UC Rogue's dex to damage, if for different reasons. Aspects are hardly original, but they provide a decent enough X/day resource that scales..... modestly, once you average out the choices. And while I will fully admit that the druid is more powerful at shape shifting, I feel like wild shape is a sort of 'micro capstone' in the mechanics-driven story arc that is your Aspect reaching its potential. I forsee a lot of fun character moments in games with creative GMs.
Overall, the class isn't terrible powerful, but it looks fun. And for me, that's enough. If I had to compare this class' release to anything else, it would be the UC Summoner. Still fine on its own, and quite viable, but it lives in the shadow of something with far more raw potential.
I'll whip up a PFS friendly build or two later tonight, just for funsies.
So I have a question.....I was speaking to someone in my gaming group about the Shifter.....and I mentioned I would have rather seen the claws scale at the same damage dice as a Monks flurries (start at 1D6 and go up from there).
He felt that would be overpowered....because they are claws.
When I asked him in what way that made a difference...he really couldn't give me an answer.
Is there any inherent advantage to doing two claw attacks at 1D6, over doing two unarmed strikes at 1D6 ?
The only possible advantage I can see is in a situation were Bludg dmg is preferable to slash......and since claws are generally bludg and slash.....I feel I must be missing something ?
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The idea of claws, aspect, and wild shape create a smooth progression towards your class fantasy. You begin with at-will claws without any hoops to jump through. No feat tax, no oddball ranger style, no Mutagen requirements, and no Sorcerer dips. It's as much a blessing as UC Rogue's dex to damage, if for different reasons. Aspects are hardly original, but they provide a decent enough X/day resource that scales..... modestly, once you average out the choices. And while I will fully admit that the druid is more powerful at shape shifting, I feel like wild shape is a sort of 'micro capstone' in the mechanics-driven story arc that is your Aspect reaching its potential. I forsee a lot of fun character moments in games with creative GMs.
Overall, the class isn't terrible powerful, but it looks fun. And for me, that's enough. If I had to compare this class' release to anything else, it would be the UC Summoner. Still fine on its own, and quite viable, but it lives in the shadow of something with far more raw potential.
I think your analysis of what was going through the designer's heads' is probably pretty accurate and I'll also agree that the class isn't terribly powerful but is certainly playable.
I disagree with anything about the Shifter having "smooth progression" or being anything but passingly cognizant of its class fantasy.
The claws class feature clashes with any race that grants claws, almost contemptuously. They also saddle you with dagger damage dice for 7 levels while outside of wild shape. Wild shape's value is spiky as hell, massively valuable at level 4 but dropping rapidly thereafter. But the real kicker is that everything pushes the Shifter toward shifting as little as possible, maximizing their time in their wild shape form of choice.
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As written, I'm not seeing any good reason to move my mooncursed bearbarian to Shifter.
Maybe that will change (I had this neat idea of kind of 'working into being able to change into something other than a bear' but it really doesn't work with Shifter.
Does work with druid though...
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So as someone who has not played an Alchemist, Natural attack style ranger, a Sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claws, or anybody else who uses natural weapons* I might be missing something, but what precisely is the appeal of claws? I understand that "2 attacks at level 1 and also any other natural attacks you get from things like toothy" is great at low levels when everybody else is making one attack, but since you don't get piles of attacks later like other people do, so your combat strategy appears to scale poorly.
Is this just a "it's rad up until level 6" kind of thing?
*EDIT: Not strictly true, I have played Changelings I just never made any claw attacks, since my hands were full or "attacking for 1d4x2 didn't seem like a good thing to focus on."
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Possible, I think it's very much that.
Overvalued and not nearly given enough for what it needs to do.
So as someone who has not played an Alchemist, Natural attack style ranger, a Sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claws, or anybody else who uses natural weapons* I might be missing something, but what precisely is the appeal of claws? I understand that "2 attacks at level 1 and also any other natural attacks you get from things like toothy" is great at low levels when everybody else is making one attack, but since you don't get piles of attacks later like other people do, so your combat strategy appears to scale poorly.
Is this just a "it's rad up until level 6" kind of thing?
*EDIT: Not strictly true, I have played Changelings I just never made any claw attacks, since my hands were full or "attacking for 1d4x2 didn't seem like a good thing to focus on."
I enjoy (and often play) Changelings and Skinshifters....which may be were my confusion comes from. At 1st level it's the same as having a 1D8 weapon...but you must succeed at two attack rolls...not sure were the concept of it being "better" than the fighter wielding a 1D8 weapon that he needs to succeed on one attack roll comes from....
Two chances to get a critical, I guess?
And it's not 1d8, it's 2d4, so on average it does .5 dpr more if both attacks hit?
This is just a rough guess? Most melee weapons have better crit range, Claws have Bashing/Slashing...
So as someone who has not played an Alchemist, Natural attack style ranger, a Sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claws, or anybody else who uses natural weapons* I might be missing something, but what precisely is the appeal of claws? I understand that "2 attacks at level 1 and also any other natural attacks you get from things like toothy" is great at low levels when everybody else is making one attack, but since you don't get piles of attacks later like other people do, so your combat strategy appears to scale poorly.
Is this just a "it's rad up until level 6" kind of thing?
Absolutely. This isn't a problem strictly with the Shifter, however, this is a problem with any race or class that utilizes natural weapons, because their natural attacks do not get iteratives to keep them up to snuff with other basic martials by the endgame.
The most common example would be Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple, where they start off decent (comparable to two-handing martials), become amazing at the mid-game, and then fall off due to lack of quadratic scaling with attacks.
The other big problem is that, if used merely as a side supplement to the common attack paradigm, they will lose value or purpose when put up against enemies who possess DR (of which there are many at the levels where side supplements may make a difference between 1-rounding baddies and not), and against enemies who don't, will not be at the level where it's strong enough due to lack of appropriate scaling, such as lacking Strength modifiers, enhancement bonuses or properties, and so on. The factor that a side supplement needs to be invested in to maintain it being a side supplement is a big drawback for utilizing both manufactured and natural weapons simultaneously.
Certain effects reduce those problems (such as Multiattack feat and Dragon Ferocity + Natural Combat Style combo), but they are pretty niche, and require heavy investment, and so won't be available for several other characters who can't reasonably utilize said effects without special combinations.
Honestly, if the Shifter had a feature which shores up their lack of lategame scaling (such as the Multiattack feature that certain Animal Companions get, adding a second attack at a penalty, applying to their Claws), they would be comparable to late-game martials, and I'm surprised they don't possess such a feature to begin with.
I enjoy (and often play) Changelings and Skinshifters....which may be were my confusion comes from. At 1st level it's the same as having a 1D8 weapon...but you must succeed at two attack rolls...not sure were the concept of it being "better" than the fighter wielding a 1D8 weapon that he needs to succeed on one attack roll comes from....So as someone who has not played an Alchemist, Natural attack style ranger, a Sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claws, or anybody else who uses natural weapons* I might be missing something, but what precisely is the appeal of claws? I understand that "2 attacks at level 1 and also any other natural attacks you get from things like toothy" is great at low levels when everybody else is making one attack, but since you don't get piles of attacks later like other people do, so your combat strategy appears to scale poorly.
Is this just a "it's rad up until level 6" kind of thing?
*EDIT: Not strictly true, I have played Changelings I just never made any claw attacks, since my hands were full or "attacking for 1d4x2 didn't seem like a good thing to focus on."
The concept is that it's a more consistent method of DPR at that level. Rolling two attacks means you're more likely to hit with one of them than you are with just one roll, and even if you do miss with one and hit with the other, you're doing more average damage than that guy who only gets one chance to roll and ends up whiffing due to bad rolls or what have you.
That isn't to say that the manufactured weapon doesn't have its advantages (it's more likely to roll higher/maximum damage), but that it also has its disadvantages (all consolidated to one roll and effectively follows the Save/Suck paradigm).
So as someone who has not played an Alchemist, Natural attack style ranger, a Sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claws, or anybody else who uses natural weapons* I might be missing something, but what precisely is the appeal of claws? I understand that "2 attacks at level 1 and also any other natural attacks you get from things like toothy" is great at low levels when everybody else is making one attack, but since you don't get piles of attacks later like other people do, so your combat strategy appears to scale poorly.
Is this just a "it's rad up until level 6" kind of thing?
Absolutely. This isn't a problem strictly with the Shifter, however, this is a problem with any race or class that utilizes natural weapons, because their natural attacks do not get iteratives to keep them up to snuff with other basic martials by the endgame.
The most common example would be Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple, where they start off decent (comparable to two-handing martials), become amazing at the mid-game, and then fall off due to lack of quadratic scaling with attacks.
Actually, Draconic Bloodrager holds up just fine on the natural attack front late-game. At level 16, when most characters are getting their fourth iterative attack, Bloodragers get a bloodline power that lets them turn into a large dragon. Dragons get 6 natural attacks.
So, I think they're fine.
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You're starting to see some of why there is dissent surrounding the class.
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You can, however, manage 6 natural attacks by level 8 with a Deinonychus Aspect and an Animal Mask for a Gore Attack. Two are secondary, but still.
Because nothing says "entry level class" like having to use software to batch roll your attacks by level 8.
You can, however, manage 6 natural attacks by level 8 with a Deinonychus Aspect and an Animal Mask for a Gore Attack. Two are secondary, but still.
A skinwalker ranger can manage 6 attacks at 2nd without magic items. [claw,claw,bite,gore,hoof,hoof]
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You can, however, manage 6 natural attacks by level 8 with a Deinonychus Aspect and an Animal Mask for a Gore Attack. Two are secondary, but still.Because nothing says "entry level class" like having to use software to batch roll your attacks by level 8.
You get 5 just by picking Deinonychus. There being a single item that makes it better isn't exactly damning.
A skinwalker ranger can manage 6 attacks at 2nd without magic items. [claw,claw,bite,gore,hoof,hoof]
A Shifter skinwalker can have that many at 1st, actually.
They don't get Pounce with them, though. Which the deinonychus does.
Wait... do Shifters get iterative attacks with their claws? they're a full bab class... they have to right? otherwise how to increase number of attacks? ring of rat fangs and other natural attacks add-ons: can those be used while 'melded' during wildshape??
No....claw/claw....that's it.
A boon at low levels (1-6) a handicap after that.
Hey I don't mean to start another brawl here... I really want to know as I'm planning to build one.. mouse or eagle is the question...
I have not seen any brawls ?
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Wait... do Shifters get iterative attacks with their claws? they're a full bab class... they have to right? otherwise how to increase number of attacks? ring of rat fangs and other natural attacks add-ons: can those be used while 'melded' during wildshape??
As others have said, Natural attacks do not get iteratives except for the most stringent of cases (such as the Multiattack feat with a T-Rex Animal Companion). The Shifter isn't one of them.
Several magic items won't work due to them being melded into your body while shapeshifted, which means you can reasonably rule them out as being relevant to the Shifter. (Ironic, since the main source of people who would want these kinds of items are in fact people who change forms for natural weapons, to get more bang for their buck.)
Really, unless you're a Deinonychus or Dire Tiger with Pounce (which needs to be used every round, I might add), you're not going to compare very well in the late game for combat, whereas you'd be a leg up in the early game. It's the #1 reason why those forms are suggested for Druids, and having played a Caster/Melee Hybrid Druid with only 14 Strength (VMC Barbarian to compensate), I can assure you I outpaced practically everyone in the party on a given Pounce, Power Attack and Rage included.
@ Ventnor: Fair enough. Lacking pounce is a big problem though, and having to sacrifice your 8th and 12th level Bloodline Powers via Primalist archetype to get it isn't exactly a cup of tea, either.
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otherwise how to increase number of attacks? ring of rat fangs and other natural attacks add-ons: can those be used while 'melded' during wildshape??Several magic items won't work due to them being melded into your body while shapeshifted, which means you can reasonably rule them out as being relevant to the Shifter.
how so? ring of rat fangs should still give you a bite attack while melded AFAIK... it's not an armor or shield bonus to AC, so it should stay active despite of your shape.
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And in addition, if everyone is taking the two options that have Pounce, in some campaigns they will be restricted/banned.
EDIT: ...or heavily nerfed.
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Or... you ask your GM to allow you to use claw blades. It's an item from the Advanced Race Guide for catfolks who have taken the alternate Cat's Claws trait. It essentially converts your natural piercing/slashing weapons into light slashing only manufactured weapons, so you... get TWF penalties. Then again, it is a good way to get iterative attacks with claws.
I... don't understand why it would be a race-exclusive item, when just about any creature with claws could potentially use them.
Works for... home campaigns.
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A Shifter skinwalker can have that many at 1st, actually.How so? wereboar heritage for 1 gore and 2 hooves?
That plus Adopted for the Orc Racial Trait to get a bite attack, yeah.
That makes for 6 attacks.
And in addition, if everyone is taking the two options that have Pounce, in some campaigns they will be restricted/banned.EDIT: ...or heavily nerfed.
Only in games where, say, Beast Totem is banned or nerfed. Which isn't most in my experience.
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If you like the fluff of the Shifter, but don't like losing out on iterative attacks, I think the Elementalist can be pretty good with manufactured weapons since Elemental Strike does scale pretty well (1d6 bonus damage per hit at 1st, 2d6 at 4th, 3d6 at 9th, etc.) You just need to figure out a way to make this work with your extremely limited collection of feats and poor weapon proficiencies.
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And in addition, if everyone is taking the two options that have Pounce, in some campaigns they will be restricted/banned.EDIT: ...or heavily nerfed.
If a class needs to be built a specific way, to be any good....then it's broken (in the bad way). For the Shifter to be viable.....it needs to work with all of the available aspect....not just one or two...
If a class needs to be built a specific way, to be any good....then it's broken (in the bad way). For the Shifter to be viable.....it needs to work with all of the available aspect....not just one or two...
All is probably an unreasonable expectation, there's going to be a few duds in any lineup.
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Actually, reach builds using Monkey or Snake are both very valid, as is a Dex-based Falcon build, or a grapple based Frog build. And there's a pretty scary Wolverine based Rage build just waiting to be used.
Bear, Bull, Wolf, and Owl are mostly niche builds but I can think of a few uses of each of them. Bat and Mouse are mostly good for utility, but are both potentially amazing for that purpose, especially their Minor Forms.
That leaves only Lizard and Stag as legitimately weak options, and even there I might just be missing something.
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I made myself sad typing that up. What's worse it was just a throw away idea I came up when I started to make a response.
Back on topic though there's not really a whole lot going for a Shifter. Everyone is gonna build around either the dino or tiger with most people opting dino just because it's objectively the better pouncer at low levels. There's nothing really varied you can think of as a good build besides always selecting like 5-6 aspects and then buy a bestial rag for utility. At higher levels you might you get so much money you might as well buy all the bestial rag aspects to feel like a complete class. Or just play another class and invest that 80k more wisely.
The problem with Elementalist is that you aren't told like what damage your should be dealing.
That's going to be fixed by errata, and in the meantime the GM can pretty easily make a ruling (I'd say earth-acid, fire-fire, air-electric, water- cold, etc.)
I never understood water and cold. cold should be air really. electric is the tricky one. it could go with fire. They are fairly similar.
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I never understood water and cold. cold should be air really. electric is the tricky one. it could go with fire. They are fairly similar.
The problem with that is that Fire is Fire.
Water and Cold association comes from Ice being made of water.
Air and Electricity comes from lightning coming from the sky/clouds.
Acid and Earth comes from I don't know what, I always liked Sonic for Earth because of the association with vibrations/quakes. But sonic resistance is so rare it'd be a bit broken to change the association now.
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Ice technically should deal physical damage really. earth too. Classic elements combined with damaging energy elements always seem so forced.
Me and my mate were talking about trying to justify how Acid = Earth last night actually. We came up with Earth becoming associated with alchemy in the setting.
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I never understood water and cold. cold should be air really. electric is the tricky one. it could go with fire. They are fairly similar.
Having been in both -20 degree air and 0 degree water I'm going to go with the water on this one.
lol fair enough.
...So I was misunderstanding how bracers of armor work. That is... kind of dumb, honestly. I guess mage armor or wild studded leather/leaf armor or hide armor (Darkleaf if necessary) might be better, at least in places where you can't houserule bracers working when polymorphed.
Mage Armor would probably be better than that if you have a reliable caster; it's very expensive to get +1 wild studded leather/leaf armor which is the same bonus as mage armor; Wild Darkleaf Hide is a little better but it depends on whether you're going for high dex for shifter's edge or what.
I just really prefer permanent bonuses so I don't have to constantly be recalculating my stats or taking time to buff.
EDIT: Also my alternate elemental associations is air with cold, water with acid, and electric with earth.
You can, however, manage 6 natural attacks by level 8 with a Deinonychus Aspect and an Animal Mask for a Gore Attack. Two are secondary, but still.Because nothing says "entry level class" like having to use software to batch roll your attacks by level 8.You get 5 just by picking Deinonychus. There being a single item that makes it better isn't exactly damning.
A skinwalker ranger can manage 6 attacks at 2nd without magic items. [claw,claw,bite,gore,hoof,hoof]A Shifter skinwalker can have that many at 1st, actually.
They don't get Pounce with them, though. Which the deinonychus does.
Just pointing out the sole thing shifter brings to the table is pounce at 4th: It adds nothing new to natural weapon builds otherwise.