Well, at least Archon will be destroying the minis in a couple weeks, so Paizo should be able to quit being vague then.
Where did you hear that?
It sounds more like a negotiating tactic then an intelligent decision on Archons part.
I would also think it could be illegal as those mini's were bought and paid for by backers and they have a legitimate claim to those minis.
Its also an extremely bad move as far as PR is concerned.
Destroying mini's KS backers have paid for could get them some extremely negative comments on any future kickstarters they are involved in. I'd certainly be a lot more reluctant to touch anything they are involved in if they pulled a move like that.
Kind of like cutting your nose off to spite your face and all that.
Well, at least Archon will be destroying the minis in a couple weeks, so Paizo should be able to quit being vague then.
Yeah, not seeing anything online to back this up, other then your post on the KS page.
I get it your pissed, but if you are lying about this to generate outrage to cause Paizo / ND / Archon damage you might actually be committing a crime.
So maybe mention where you heard this as of yet unfounded rumor?
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Its scattered all over the place, boardgamegeek, the chibi gamers Facebook, the kickstarter page, a couple Archon Studios pages, even back a few pages in this forum. The end of March is the end of (if I understand it correctly) a fiscal quarter where Archon's warehouses are. If the minis they've already manufactured are there at the end of the quarter, they get taxed for them. The whole reason Paizo was doing negotiations with Archon was to try and get their hands on them before they were destroyed by Archon to avoid paying taxes for what Ninja Division couldn't afford to pay for.
If this is true you cannot really blame a company for being forced to make a decision like this instead of taking a huge tax hit. I'd personally expect them to maybe bulk sell the items on ebay before that point though to at least recoup some of their lost revenue but I'm no business/tax guru so who knows?
BTW Archon is renamed Prodos, who had to hide their true name, after they sold AvP Miniature Game 2nd edition in retail before delivering AvP 1st edition to kickstarter backers. Noone would back a Prodos kickstarter. Seems the trick worked and under the cover name they made 2 kickstarters for the LOAD boardgame and have recovered a bit:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game?lang=de
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/re-load-by-archon-studio/de scription
But then again: Who still remembers, how CMON founder David Doust burned customer money with a suspicous bancruptcy of his former New Wave Miniature Company.
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If this is true you cannot really blame a company for being forced to make a decision like this instead of taking a huge tax hit. I'd personally expect them to maybe bulk sell the items on ebay before that point though to at least recoup some of their lost revenue but I'm no business/tax guru so who knows?
I am assuming they cannot sell them, mostly likely per the contract with ND.
To be fair, no one here has ordered these miniatures from Ninja Division. Many people pledged money to Ninja Division's Kickstarter to have miniatures made, but that is not the same thing. Until people stop treating Kickstarter like a store these woes will continue to happen.
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To be fair, no one here has ordered these miniatures from Ninja Division. Many people pledged money to Ninja Division's Kickstarter to have miniatures made, but that is not the same thing. Until people stop treating Kickstarter like a store these woes will continue to happen.
That isn't a fair assessment of peoples issues here. No. You're not guaranteed to get anything on kickstarter. But you are entitled to a good faith effort to get your product made. That appears to have been lacking.
To all appearances there either there was never a viable plan to deliver the miniatures at all or at best Ninja Division treated pledged money to have miniatures as a general investment in the company rather than a product. If they wanted to do that they should sell stock, not run a kickstarter.
Yes, kickstarter has some risks, but here take this money pay this manufacturer make the minis we already have sculpts for SHOULD be pretty safe outside of acts of god. This wasn't something that happened this was something people did.
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To all appearances there either there was never a viable plan to deliver the miniatures at all or at best Ninja Division treated pledged money to have miniatures as a general investment in the company rather than a product. If they wanted to do that they should sell stock, not run a kickstarter.
Yes, kickstarter has some risks, but here take this money pay this manufacturer make the minis we already have sculpts for SHOULD be pretty safe outside of acts of god. This wasn't something that happened this was something people did.
I thoroughly agree.
And (as far as I'm concerned) the above is outside of Paizo's responsibility. What I'm looking for from paizo revolves around the confidence Erik/Jeff expressed that things would be different this time around.
I don't want Paizo to tell me details about this kickstarter. I'd like to know whether they made a mistake (ie didn't look very hard beyond hearing the answers they wanted to hear) or whether they were duped.
To be fair, no one here has ordered these miniatures from Ninja Division. Many people pledged money to Ninja Division's Kickstarter to have miniatures made, but that is not the same thing. Until people stop treating Kickstarter like a store these woes will continue to happen.That isn't a fair assessment of peoples issues here.
My post was a response to a series of posts that have since been removed. Without them being present it loses much of its impact and all of its context.
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To be fair, no one here has ordered these miniatures from Ninja Division. Many people pledged money to Ninja Division's Kickstarter to have miniatures made, but that is not the same thing. Until people stop treating Kickstarter like a store these woes will continue to happen.
I have and will continue to dispute this point.
backers did not pay to have the miniatures made, they paid to have them delivered.
Stop trying to blame backers for ND's blatant misuse of Kicxkstarter as a pre-order service.
Until CREATORS stop USING Kickstarter as a PRE-ORDER store these woes will continue to happen.
That would be a more accurate statement.
You're tilting at windmills my feline friend, as I am no apologist for Ninja Division. People misusing Kickstarter, in the context of my post, includes both creators and backers. The failures here, and in similar situations, should be an object lesson for anyone who thinks about using Kickstarter in the future. Again, I appreciate that this point may have been lost due to the deleted posts.
As I've said before, there are no winners in this situation. Everyone involved has lost something, some certainly more than others.
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My post was a response to a series of posts that have since been removed. Without them being present it loses much of its impact and all of its context.Yup seems like a bunch of posts got the axe. I guess that's where we're heading to now.
Or we could not?
Don't make abusive posts and they won't get deleted.
Yup seems like a bunch of posts got the axe. I guess that's where we're heading to now.
Well yeah, we can have negative press tarnish the grand unveiling of 2E!
Why put out a dumpster fire when you have a shiny new model coming out in a few months.
I'm disappointed in Paizo.
Yup seems like a bunch of posts got the axe. I guess that's where we're heading to now.Well yeah, we can have negative press tarnish the grand unveiling of 2E!
Why put out a dumpster fire when you have a shiny new model coming out in a few months.
I'm disappointed in Paizo.
Some abusive posts were removed, this thread hasn't been locked or deleted.
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There wasn’t much deleted and it wasn’t really stuff we haven’t said before.
Fwiw, I think there’s a lot of extra heat in this issue when we backers begin arguing with one another about the morality/legality/history of what has gone on. We’re all upset about different aspects of this mess and I think sometimes when someone chips in with a different focus or expresses different feelings, it can feel like one’s own point of objection is getting trivialised or dismissed out of hand.
Of course, the longer it goes without official comment the more likely it is we’ll try and “fill in the gaps” from our position of relative ignorance.
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Of course, the longer it goes without official comment the more likely it is we’ll try and “fill in the gaps” from our position of relative ignorance.
This is probably the biggest problem with this situation.
People spent a lot of money, have nothing to show for it and the people responsible, weather it be ND, Paizo, Archon, aren't really giving backers much of a real explanation as to how this could have happened and what is being done to resolve it.
I understand there are NDA's, contracts and such to consider, but at some point that needs to go out the window and honest answers need to be provided, not dodgy half truths and butt covering.
All of the parties involved need to live up to there requirements as per the CURRENT KS tos (not the old ones that don't apply people keep reffering to when demanding refunds)
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
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Finally customer service found time to deal with this topic, even if it's only to delete posts by customers.
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Customer service has been monitoring this thread since it started and making sure it is visible to the powers that be. There is nothing we can contribute to it beyond what Sara Marie has been posting. So I am unclear what you are alluding to or what you think we have the power to do.
Customer Service has the power to communicate with customers more than once every 2 years. To spend 10 minutes per year to make a post with content. Not just "hold the line" and "nothing to say" for 2 years. And also to communicate to Erik Mona that he should either confirm or take back the 2 year old statement that everything is fine with ND. His silence has done too much damage to Paizo's reputation already. And many customers/influencers are in the process to turn their backs on Paizo and its products.
How am I supposed to spread enthusiasm for Starfinder and 2nd edition Pathfinder in my store and town when Erik's word lured me and hundreds of customers into this shady kickstarter and he doesn't care enough to say a single word in 2 years.
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As I mentioned in my previous post, customer service does not have the power to say anything beyond what Sara has posted. Which you just said you don't want to hear. Likewise, as I mentioned above, we have been making sure this thread stays visible to the company higher ups. Despite your assumption of 10 minutes, you have no idea how much time and energy myself or my colleagues have put into doing so.
Customer Service & Community Manager
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I run the CS department, so 'customer service' has been 'finding the time to deal with it' for months. Everyone at Paizo cares about our community and those who are involved with Ninja Division’s Kickstarter. However, this thread isn't a place for venting anger, and we (myself and my team that assists with forum moderation) are doing our best to walk a fine line. We want to keep a place open for people to come with their feedback and know that this is not being ignored, but we can not tolerate personal attacks, innuendo, or aggressive commentary towards other KS backers or people from the tabletop RPG community, which includes Paizo staff.
A lack of executive commentary in this thread is not an indication of a lack of empathy, care, or knowledge of how people feel about this. We are all keenly aware of how Ninja Division’s Kickstarter has affected our fans as well as the Starfinder brand.
However much everyone involved with this Kickstarter wants there to be simple, straightforward solutions, even discussing details publicly is complex. I am so sorry to the community who is seeking answers right now that this is the case, but however much we'd love to be frank and open with details, this is exponentially more complicated than zipping off a forum post.
As I mentioned in my previous post, customer service does not have the power to say anything beyond what Sara has posted. Which you just said you don't want to hear. Likewise, as I mentioned above, we have been making sure this thread stays visible to the company higher ups. Despite your assumption of 10 minutes, you have no idea how much time and energy myself or my colleagues have put into doing so.
Maybe with access to more information people wouldn't be left with a blank space for their minds to spin theories out on?
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As I mentioned in my previous post, customer service does not have the power to say anything beyond what Sara has posted. Which you just said you don't want to hear. Likewise, as I mentioned above, we have been making sure this thread stays visible to the company higher ups. Despite your assumption of 10 minutes, you have no idea how much time and energy myself or my colleagues have put into doing so.Maybe with access to more information people wouldn't be left with a blank space for their minds to spin theories out on?
While I agree, the simple fact is there will most likely never be as much information as backers want as ultimately it must come from Ninja Division and they are not likely to ever admit they flat out intended to rip Paizo, Archon and the backers off and anything less then such an admission would not be accepted by many people.
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While I agree, the simple fact is there will most likely never be as much information as backers want as ultimately it must come from Ninja Division and they are not likely to ever admit they flat out intended to rip Paizo, Archon and the backers off and anything less then such an admission would not be accepted by many people.
I think a statement from Erik/Higher Ups(tm) on what evidence he had that ND would be able to deliver after many red flags were brought up would appease most of the masses. The fact that most of us feel cheated/lead astray by the Paizo heads vouching for them despite evidence proving otherwise is really (from what I see) is the chief complaint.
Currently the vacuum/lack of information makes me fill in the blanks such as:
1. Doing a friend a favor and it blew up in his face.
2. Personally got a cut of the profits for using ND.
3. ???
4. Profit!
Crazy, I know, but nothing has been said to the extent that the above did NOT happen, so this is just a breeding ground for speculation, conspiracy theories, guesses and heartburn for the CS group.
I get it that mistakes were made, not one of us here are perfect, however understanding the "Why" and evidence thereof would put us in the shoes of "Oh, well that sounded like a good idea at the time, I can see why they decided that!" or "Thanks guys for the warnings AFTER we already signed the contract".
We need some assurances that the next time Paizo head-ups promote something, we arent going to be stuck in the same situation.
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*Ahem*
I'm not sure I'd qualify fairly regular posts here as radio silence.
That said, I think it's very obvious that a lot of people have specific things they want Paizo (and its executives) to address about this topic - and I know it can be very frustrating if you get a public statement that doesn't cover the things you actually want to hear about. Of course, even the best executives and customer service representatives are only human - they're not mind readers and they can't just know what exactly we want them to discuss.
Given that, may I suggest that those who are interested make a list - and post it in here - of the specific things you'd like Paizo's official statement on this to address? The more specific, the better. "What did you know and when did you know it?" is pretty vague. "Did you have non-public information that convinced you Ninja Division was the best choice at the time?" may be easier to get a concrete answer for.
However frustrating the entire situation may be, attacking Paizo or its employees won't help - personally, I think everyone will be a lot happier if we help them help us. ^^
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It seems to me that someone touched a nerve. The fact that 3 CSR types dropped in here leads me to believe this. Might have something to do with the fact some store owners might not want to push the new 2nd ed pathfinder or any more starfinder stuff till this issue gets resolved. But hey it's just something I would like to talk about...not that I would ever accuse anyone in a negative way or doubt what the CSR types are doing in their busy time. I'm sure they wouldn't attack their own fan base due to our lack of knowledge or communication of what is going on due to radio silence.
You're right to be sure. Customer Service are tireless advocates for customers - there have been many cases over the years where decisions/processes occurring within the company were changed specifically through the advocacy of Sara Marie and her staff looking out for our interests and the way things look and work from our perspective.
When they say they can't say anything more, it's because they can't say anything more.
I remain disappointed by Paizo's actions in this situation, but have no doubt that the CS team are doing what they can to help prosecute our case behind the scenes.
In terms of damage to the launch of PF2, there's far bigger things at play than word of mouth from a few thousand disgruntled SF customers, no matter where they work. I'm sure Paizo are worried about brand damage - I don't think that worry escalates significantly when someone pops in and says "I work at a game store and I'm not going to push PF2 very hard unless Erik says something". They're already well aware of the potential for lost sales.
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Best of luck to all you good folks still hoping to get what you paid for...but I'm done.
Wow.
I gave up on that a long time ago, to be honest. I doubt any of us will receive anything significant beyond what’s already been delivered.
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While I agree, the simple fact is there will most likely never be as much information as backers want as ultimately it must come from Ninja Division and they are not likely to ever admit they flat out intended to rip Paizo, Archon and the backers off and anything less then such an admission would not be accepted by many people.I think a statement from Erik/Higher Ups(tm) on what evidence he had that ND would be able to deliver after many red flags were brought up would appease most of the masses. The fact that most of us feel cheated/lead astray by the Paizo heads vouching for them despite evidence proving otherwise is really (from what I see) is the chief complaint.
Fair point.
I'm assuming at this point since we have not seen that it will not be forthcoming.
I'm sure the excuse will be "NDA" or somesuch.
I just wonder sometimes why and how an NDA or contract applies when you're dealing with a company Like Ninja Division, who apparently deliberately set Paizo up and is costing them sales & damaging they're reputation.
At what point does Paizo & especially its CS reps have to stop taking it on the chin for a company who certainly looks like they deliberately intended to stab them in the back from the start?
Because if that's what "THE LAW" requires of them then there is something seriously wrong with "THE LAW"