Handling of changing rules: Why has it been getting harsher?


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The Exchange

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Audits are a messy process when you have mechanically intricate characters. People don't understand certain rules and are normally pretty adamant about being right even if they contradict what a rule says.

It can also be used as a screening process to reject people from tables. Experienced this. This thread even gave an example of when it would happen:

Quote:
GM: *eyeballs Player 4's character sheet* - you've got a buffed AC of 30 and you do 3d6+10 damage on a hit. You could solo this scenario and that wouldn't be fun for the rest of the table. Please use a different PC with a more appropriate power level, or a pregen, otherwise my responsibility to provide a fun experience for everyone means I can't let you use that character.

So like many things it can be abused. It just happens to be handing an amount of power and responsibility to literally anyone who decided to GM.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

You have to take the good with the bad and hope the former well outweighs the latter. Are there GMs who will abuse the audit process? Yes, but most won't. Are there players who abuse the system knowing no one wants to audit? Yes, but most won't. The trick is implementing simple solutions that can encourage some measure of consistency, hopefully influencing the abusers from doing so and catching those who do anyway and correcting their exploitation without negatively impacting the rest of the players.

Silver Crusade 3/5

My 2 cents, I'm not sure the rules are getting harsher so much that people are actually enforcing them and it seems more punitive as it hadn't been enforced before now.

re: auditing; At every single convention I've had my characters audited and I've been asked to play a pregen when I couldn't produce my sources (back before the guide stated that living in the same household counted as shared resources and my other half was at another table - Origins 2013). Now I have printed copies of the appropriate sheets (or more accurately, compiled PDF's) of my characters and have their resources right handy in one PDF for viewing.

It's in the guide, I've always presumed it could happen, and when I get audited IT'S OK.

I also generally audit characters at my table, my expectation is that people understand how to run their characters and I am consistently disappointed since rarely can my players actually tell me how they got 30 AC, etc. etc. etc.

*edited Origins year, it was 2013. How time flies.

5/5

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I'm actually starting to audit my tables, now that you mention it.

I never stopped but online is much easier.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:

I'm the primary auditing GM in pH unbalanced's local group. I find it easy enough, and hardly time-consuming at all... although I'm almost certainly an outlier.

I know the system well enough to instantly spot when someone got a trait off of d20pfsrd without checking the religion requirement (aasimar tetori with Ydersius religion trait) or to identify an anomalous number in need of investigation.

The biggest obstacle to auditing, in my experience, is bad character sheet management. I've seen sheets with vital magic items scattered across three pages, hidden among scratched-out margin notes. We've helped those folks get things sorted, though.

And, to be honest? If I saw someone as desperate to avoid auditing as some of the folks in this thread, I'd be really uncomfortable running a game for their characters until I'd given things a once-over. I didn't get this title by looking the other way.

I have not seen people desperate to avoid auditing in this thread. But then I may have missed some posts

I have seen people who do not agree with you on some points, but I do not equate them with cheaters

You are quite welcome to audit my PFS character who relied somewhat on the previous Lorewarden to try and build a STR-dumping melee combattant with the Halfling Opportunist PrC, which is quite difficult and not OP at all (underwhelming would fit it better). Because it is a mixed bag of many classes and archetypes, it might take some time though

Too bad that the Halfling Opportunist did not get the redesign that the Lorewarden did

It appears that "unbalanced" only gets a redesign when it actually means "too powerful". Likely because more people will play the powerful options rather than the weak ones, especially in PFS there GMs cannot ban them just because

Who then chooses the target for a redesign ? I think the PFS leadership gets its voice heard on that point. With the weight of all the players and thus customers they represent


Okay.

5/5

cyzzane wrote:
re: auditing; At every single convention I've had my characters audited and I've been asked to play a pregen when I couldn't produce my sources (back before the guide stated that living in the same household counted as shared resources and my other half was at another table - Origins 2013). Now I have printed copies of the appropriate sheets (or more accurately, compiled PDF's) of my characters and have their resources right handy in one PDF for viewing.

Conversely I have barely ever been audited at a convention. Most of my con experience is smaller UK cons but it has never happened in three paizocon UK cons. I have played PFS at gencon twice and had a very light touch audit at Bonekeep 3, basically just a show me your last filled in chronicle. One young lad there just had a pile of scrunched up papers in no order, none of them filled out. He ended up having to drop out and took his dad with him (he looked about 13). Another player was asked to justify some high value purchases on a goblin boon barbarian and ended up spending 20 minutes before the start filling in his chronicles. They were at least in some rough order.

Quote:
I also generally audit characters at my table, my expectation is that people understand how to run their characters and I am consistently disappointed since rarely can my players actually tell me how they got 30 AC, etc. etc. etc.

I see this a lot and if they cannot explain how they reached 30AC then their AC is at the level that they can actually explain. My players know better than to utter the phrase "herolab says". Much as I love herolab and use it a lot it is no substitute for actually knowing how your character works and where its numbers come from.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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andreww wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I'm actually starting to audit my tables, now that you mention it.
I never stopped but online is much easier.

What do you look for when you audit a table?

Me?

I'd be interested in material, shape, how many legs, and if it's wood, wht species, cut, and stain...

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
andreww wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I'm actually starting to audit my tables, now that you mention it.
I never stopped but online is much easier.

What do you look for when you audit a table?

Me?

I'd be interested in material, shape, how many legs, and if it's wood, wht species, cut, and stain...

Stability.

Dark Archive 5/5 Venture-Captain, Minnesota—St. Paul

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
andreww wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I'm actually starting to audit my tables, now that you mention it.
I never stopped but online is much easier.

What do you look for when you audit a table?

Me?

I'd be interested in material, shape, how many legs, and if it's wood, wht species, cut, and stain...

Stability.

Where can I sit as a GM so my legs are comfortable?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Keith Apperson wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Tallow wrote:
andreww wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I'm actually starting to audit my tables, now that you mention it.
I never stopped but online is much easier.

What do you look for when you audit a table?

Me?

I'd be interested in material, shape, how many legs, and if it's wood, wht species, cut, and stain...

Stability.
Where can I sit as a GM so my legs are comfortable?

Gum with at least a little flavor.

The Exchange 5/5

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PFS = "Paperwork, Forms and Signatures"?

Rant Spoilered - feel free to skip this:

The PFS gaming table is not a serious enough environment that this is necessary, and the only thing that I've really personally seen it stop is players from showing up.

Away from the table? yeah, it's lots of fun to review PCs - Builds, Gimmicks, Options, etc., but at the game table? I'd love to spend a few hours - heck a few DAYS going over PCs. I already do it a lot when friends get together and there's not enough time/people/organization to get a game in. It's sort of a game away from the game table.

But when I have a limited amount of time and only one run thru of this scenario? It's just going to make me wonder - What fun thing did I potentially miss - what fun PLAY did we not get to do - because we took time to decipher cryptic handwriting on someone else's last CR?

Yeah - feel free to audit my PCs. (seriously, truly, no snarkyness in this statement). I'd really like a second set of eyes to double check my math, a second brain to review my rules knowledge (would this count as an Aid Another on a Knowledge Rules skill check?), but if you want to do it at the game table? I'll just run an Iconic thank you. Or sit this one out... heck, maybe I'll swing by the Organizers desk and see if I can run something for them that slot. I don't want to waste 5 other peoples time while you try to decipher my filing methods to determine that my Uthden Slave PC doesn't know a thing about her parents culture - or speak a word of Skald, but knows a lot about Qadiran culture and speaks Kellish.

I only get one run thru of a scenario, (unless I burn a Replay I guess - or play it in CORE?) I want it to be the very best I can make it. And sitting around while someone reviews my PC (and other peoples?!) is not how I was planning to spend my (limited) time at the game table.

And now I have to go wash my face and recover... Sorry, I'm getting to old for this...

1/5

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Running Lyrics of Extinction at the pre-GenCon slot, I pulled a real quick 'What sort of wonky things do you have' audit on my players, and was able to use a rarely-used class feature on one of the characters to impart information that they would otherwise have had no way of knowing, and do it seamlessly to preserve immersion.

If I had not done the quick spot-check, I never would have seen that option available.

The Exchange 5/5

GM Wageslave wrote:


Running Lyrics of Extinction at the pre-GenCon slot, I pulled a real quick 'What sort of wonky things do you have' audit on my players, and was able to use a rarely-used class feature on one of the characters to impart information that they would otherwise have had no way of knowing, and do it seamlessly to preserve immersion.

If I had not done the quick spot-check, I never would have seen that option available.

please define the phrase "'What sort of wonky things do you have' audit".

Is this where you turn to your players and say: 'What sort of wonky things do you have?' and wait for a verbal reply?
or
Is this where you have them pull out their Character Sheets, ITS and most resent CRs and wait while you visually review each of these sheets? Perhaps with them assisting by pointing out "wonky things" detailed on the sheets?
or
something else?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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That's a pretty common one. The dm is basically asking whats weird about your build.

Responses:

FLutter: Standard action wild empathy check with absurd bonuses, cuddles animals plants vermin, magical beasts and Oozes.

Grr: Adorable bundle of fluffy death, flanks from inside the square and piles on penalties.

Nick: 9 tailed kitsune, likes to use shield other on the tank

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

That's a pretty common one. The dm is basically asking whats weird about your build.

Responses:

FLutter: Standard action wild empathy check with absurd bonuses, cuddles animals plants vermin, magical beasts and Oozes.

Grr: Adorable bundle of fluffy death, flanks from inside the square and piles on penalties.

Nick: 9 tailed kitsune, likes to use shield other on the tank

but that is not what is being described by "an audit".

If that is what we are calling "an audit" I will withdraw all objections to it.

What was described above as "an audit" was...

"1. Get a couple of hundred games under your belt.
2. Ask to see character sheet, ITS, and most recent chronicle.
3. See if anything jumps out at you."

#2 requires you to physically hand over
A) your "character sheet" (normally two pages, but in some cases 5 or more)
B) your ITS - one of my Alchemists had 4 sheets before I re-did it to a spreadsheet - in small font.
C) Most Recent Chronicle - I file mine in my character folder in plastic sheet protectors, most resent to the front. My wife files hers similarly, but in reverse order.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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nosig wrote:
please define the phrase "'What sort of wonky things do you have' audit".

I believe this is where we say "use your common sense".

There have been plenty of examples in the thread about what to look for. The biggest one being "hey, what parts of your character use complicated or unclear rulings that I should be aware of, so we don't have to stop mid-combat to hash them out?"

nosig wrote:
but that is not what is being described by "an audit".

That's an audit.

So is reviewing chronicles and character sheets.


I always offer to show the GM my noncore stuff as soon as I sit down.

The Exchange 5/5

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
nosig wrote:
please define the phrase "'What sort of wonky things do you have' audit".

I believe this is where we say "use your common sense".

There have been plenty of examples in the thread about what to look for. The biggest one being "hey, what parts of your character use complicated or unclear rulings that I should be aware of, so we don't have to stop mid-combat to hash them out?"

This is not what was being described as an Audit.

No documents change hands, no paperwork is visually reviewed by the judge, this is purely a verbal exchange? Is this what is being referred to as "an audit"?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

See edit.

The Exchange 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
See edit.

We seem to not be speaking the same language - and in fact may not be reading the same thread.

now looking back thru this thread, trying to define what the heck people mean when they say "Audit"

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Any review of characters and resources, up to and including the rubber glove treatment.

No one has said "you must go full bore each and every time".

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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pH said it best.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
nosig wrote:
10 minutes? wow... how? I could not possible do that.

It really depends on what you mean by "audit." I've written about it before, but my pre-game audit procedure for returning players is very cursory. I'm not looking to rebuild their characters, just for things that are majorly confusing or glaringly out of scale. Barring a major issue I only glance at the chronicle and ITS to make sure they are filled out. The character sheet is what I'm looking at. I've got a quick mental checklist. Do the stats look about right? No more ranks in a skill than they have levels? Is the enhancement bonus on the primary weapon about right for the level? Feats...do I know how they are going to affect the game? Then look at the overall character for some RP fodder.

It's only if something tweaks as wrong that I focus on it. If it's something simple I just ask the player. "Your HP looks low. Did you add your Con modifier at every level?" "Wow. That's a huge Disable Device bonus. Can you tell me where it all came from?" If it's really complex and technical I usually say "we're going to play as you have this but after the game I want you to walk me through this. I think you may be misinterpreting something."

It's worth noting that at least 60% of the time, there is an easy explanation. And of the remaining items, over 50% are errors where the player has shorted themselves somehow.

That particular table was 4 single-classed characters. But with two issues to work through: a paladin with unusually low stats and a hunter who didn't appear to have taken a feat at 5th level. Some tables take a bit longer to work through, especially if it's new players.

Exactly.

So I'm a CPA...dealing with auditors is what I do. And an "audit" doesn't mean you check absolutely everything in complete detail. It means you use statistical methods to design sampling routines whereby you can gain reasonable assurances that nothing is materially misstated.

Which is to say...you glance at the important stuff to see if it makes sense. If they got the big stuff correct, odds are they got the small stuff correct, too. And even if they didn't, mistakes on the small stuff probably won't make any difference to the scenario outcome. (Who decides what's big and what's small? Why you, the GM do...you've prepped the scenario after all.)

At the end of the day, ninety percent of an audit is figuring out what you can ignore, so that you only spend time looking at things that matter.


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"I don't understand despite a half-page of explanations in varying levels of detail = I'm being trolled and none of you could possibly be sincere."

My thoughts, in full:

Spoiler:
lol

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

pH said it best.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
nosig wrote:
10 minutes? wow... how? I could not possible do that.

It really depends on what you mean by "audit." I've written about it before, but my pre-game audit procedure for returning players is very cursory. I'm not looking to rebuild their characters, just for things that are majorly confusing or glaringly out of scale. Barring a major issue I only glance at the chronicle and ITS to make sure they are filled out. The character sheet is what I'm looking at. I've got a quick mental checklist. Do the stats look about right? No more ranks in a skill than they have levels? Is the enhancement bonus on the primary weapon about right for the level? Feats...do I know how they are going to affect the game? Then look at the overall character for some RP fodder.

It's only if something tweaks as wrong that I focus on it. If it's something simple I just ask the player. "Your HP looks low. Did you add your Con modifier at every level?" "Wow. That's a huge Disable Device bonus. Can you tell me where it all came from?" If it's really complex and technical I usually say "we're going to play as you have this but after the game I want you to walk me through this. I think you may be misinterpreting something."

It's worth noting that at least 60% of the time, there is an easy explanation. And of the remaining items, over 50% are errors where the player has shorted themselves somehow.

That particular table was 4 single-classed characters. But with two issues to work through: a paladin with unusually low stats and a hunter who didn't appear to have taken a feat at 5th level. Some tables take a bit longer to work through, especially if it's new players.

Exactly.

So I'm a CPA...dealing with auditors is what I do. And an "audit" doesn't mean you check absolutely everything in complete detail. It means you use statistical methods to design sampling routines whereby you can gain reasonable assurances that nothing is materially misstated.
Which is to say...you glance at the important stuff to see if it makes sense. If they got the big stuff correct, odds are they got the small stuff correct, too. And even if they didn't, mistakes on the small stuff probably won't make any difference to the scenario outcome. (Who decides what's big and what's small? Why you, the GM do...you've prepped the scenario after all.)
At the end of the day, ninety percent of an audit is figuring out what you can ignore, so that you only spend time looking at things that matter.

...

And what was described just above does not fit this description in any way. Nosig was right to that it is not an audit.

Way I understand it, an audit is there to determine the legality of the character and if the player cheated or does not meet the criteria to play this character.

Which is quite different from telling the GM beforehand about non-standards abilities your legal character has

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Legality is not the only item that can be audited. (It's likely the only one that determines if you can sit at the table, but not the only item.)

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

And what was described just above does not fit this description in any way. Nosig was right to that it is not an audit.

Way I understand it, an audit is there to determine the legality of the character and if the player cheated or does not meet the criteria to play this character.

Which is quite different from telling the GM beforehand about non-standards abilities your legal character has.

One leads to the other. It's really easy to find feats and equipment not allowed by the AR if your player tells you about them directly.

Lantern Lodge Venture-Agent aka Jakuri

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Legality is not the only item that can be audited. (It's likely the only one that determines if you can sit at the table, but not the only item.)

The only times I've audited a character were to determine that they did the math correctly. Yes--I doubt that you're swinging for +17/+17 when two-weapon fighting at lvl 9. No--it's not evil to ask why. Yes--you're supposed to apply that -2 penalty. Yes--you need to apply that every time you full-attack.

Dark Archive

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Make yourself a page per character with odd things that are non core. Include page numbers and book titles. I have never been 'audited'

But I did go out to the car once at the end of the con to lug a hundred pounds of books to the table..to show resources. The guy knew I took rolling thunder (my book carrier) bk to the car and was trolling me. Kind of funny.

Poor old rolling thunder died at Gen Con.. victim of a failed fort save going up the escalator. The new one is metal....but that one plastic wheel is starting to go.

5/5

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nosig wrote:
At this point I have to conclude that I am just being Trolled. Sorry - I had assumed this was a serious discussion, I'll just put my ignore filter back on and move on to other topics.

Honestly, it looks like you doing this with your "I refuse to understand what anyone is saying and read everything in the least charitable way possible" act.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The "asking questions" portion of an audit is the most important part.

You pretty much know after the first question whether you are dealing with someone who understands their character. You pretty much know after the second question if you are dealing with someone who is being evasive and trying to hide things. (Which almost never happens. We all *love* to talk about our characters and how they work, so it really sticks out when someone doesn't.)

If someone has system mastery, is forthcoming, understands their character, and can back up the math on the one or two most unlikely looking numbers on the sheet, then I can trust they calculated their Perception modifier correctly. At that point I'm just looking for common math errors and pet peeves.

The key phrase I used above is "materially misstated" -- an audit doesn't aim to ensure perfection, it aims to ensure that nothing is wrong enough to make a difference at the table.

Even an IRS audit isn't looking at *everything*. They have a checklist of things they look at. If everything on that checklist looks good, then they know that it isn't worth their time to keep looking, because the odds are they won't find enough in unpaid taxes to pay for exercise.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Then we were all in a misunderstanding about what audit meant and we were talking (and reacting) about different things

And we would not know about this misunderstanding if Nosig had not stated that he did not understand what people were saying.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Once again blocked by terminology.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Stop focusing on the word "audit" and what that means. Focus on the point of the endevour. Call it a "scan." Call it an "audit." Call it "french toast." Who cares. The point is the intent which is to try and make sure both the player and the GM are informed as to what the character can/not do, how, and from what source while also, helping to verify that the player has properly applied the appropriate bonus/penalty to their final modifiers. This could mean a single question as posed above, it could mean a scheduled session to dissect each and every aspect of the character, or something in between. Really this discussion is starting to sound like that ridiculous argument over what the definition of "is" is.

3/5

Bob Jonquet, RVC Extraordinaire wrote:
Call it "french toast."

screen shots selectively for future convention confusion

"Ima gunna need you to show me that there metaphoric syrup is legal, ya'll. Otherwise, ya gotta go with Powdered Toast PreeeeGeeeen!" :)

yes, I'm probably kidding...

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Last time I did an audit of sorts was when I sat down to GM high-tier Cosmic Captive with the creme de la creme of local powergamers. I asked everyone to disclove unbelievable abilities and weird rules ahead of time so they wouldn't lead to arguments during the game.

So I had to cut off some people from orating at length about how special their characters were. But we also identified the need for a clear ruling about whether big monsters (like, say, the PCs) could 5ft-step earth glide downwards and whether there would be half-immersed-in-the-ground cover shenanigans. Getting that settled at the beginning of the game saved us a lot of grief later.

I guess this thread and some recent experiences are motivating me to show up 15 minutes early and do a bit more sheet-scanning. I think the biggest source of errors might be conflicting archetypes.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Last time I did french toast

There fixed it for ya :-D

Sorry, my previous attempt as humor has apparently been seized by numerous people who have decided that the activity of reviewing a character's records for the purposes of understanding the build and/or finding errors will forever now be referred to as a Western European breakfast treat. So, please pass the maple syrup.


A layperson usually hears the word "audit" when people are talking about financial transactions, and when said transactions need to be gone over in detail to ensure that nothing is wrong with them. It implies hours upon hours of carefully scrutinizing records for the slightest flaw.

So I can understand why for some people, the term "audit" means "carefully scrutinizing everything."

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Let's face it: many of us have an irratiional fear of audits. The very word chills the blood. You say audit, and I start thinking, "Oh man, what did I mess up this time?" Some of you may know that gaming math is not my thing. Some of you, who have played with me, may marvel at just how amazingly bad my gaming math is.

My fear of audits is so great that I have my boyfriend help me "self-audit" where we go through the chronicle sheets and my online sessions to make sure that everything adds up.

It's a good thing we do that. I've forgotten to give myself a GM chronicle for a character to which I was applying credit 8 times. Yes, 8 times. So then I have to fix it, do the math again, work back in the chronicle...

You'd think that this would not be hard, but for some reason I have trouble getting my own chronicle sheets done in the rush to make sure that the players all get theirs. It's gotten to the point where I've started not taking credit unless a chronicle really fits one of my characters.

The thing is that the few times I have done an audit because something looks hinky, over half the time I have found things that benefit the player that they haven't given themselves because they did not know they had it. Audits can help as well as harm, but maybe we need more friendly terminology.

Hmm


As a player, I am persnickety with chronicle sheets, generally very accurate with math and do not engage in corner case builds, so audits for me as a player are no big deal. and I define audits as a "fine tooth comb" review of characters, not a few general questions about "unusual things".

As a GM, I do not audit because I: (a) do not have the time; and, (b) do not care if a player's character is 100% within the rules. If a character is doing some seemingly egregious stuff to the detriment of other people's fun, I may ask during a game how that can happen; but I take the player at his/her word unless I know better.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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I used to be pretty anti-audit as a GM.

I want the game to be fun and light not make anyone feel like they are on trial.

But recently there are a number of players showing up and telling me their characters work in ways that are just...incorrect. And using items or feats I know to be not legal (or in the case of some First World stuff not yet legal) and for the good of the group and my storytelling I don't want to break the flow of the game to perform an audit.

But then it never gets done and because I don't feel like being the bad guy the problem compounds itself. But doing a routine audit every time, or at least every time I see a particular character should lessen the 'accusatory' nature of it and actually help several of the players.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

In the USA, the word "audit" conjures images of the IRS descending on you and, in the best case, causing you the headache of reams of paperwork and trying to convince them that the mistakes they made are their mistakes. In the worst case (imagined, at least), you end up owing thousands of dollars you can't pay, or you get hauled off to some hidden prison somewhere as Winston Smith starts erasing your name from all historical documents.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Stop focusing on the word "audit" and what that means. Focus on the point of the endevour. Call it a "scan." Call it an "audit." Call it "french toast." Who cares. The point is the intent which is to try and make sure both the player and the GM are informed as to what the character can/not do, how, and from what source while also, helping to verify that the player has properly applied the appropriate bonus/penalty to their final modifiers. This could mean a single question as posed above, it could mean a scheduled session to dissect each and every aspect of the character, or something in between. Really this discussion is starting to sound like that ridiculous argument over what the definition of "is" is.

No we are just being vague. The fact of the matter is you really aren't going to get any semblance of knowledge of what they do because Pathfinder is an absurdly complicated game.

Shadow Lodge

Im sorry but did a ruling come down ? last I knew we were waiting on John and co. to make a ruling based on the AG Changes

5/5

No, this is still pre-ruling worry, but not everyone seems content to wait and see before exploring the hypothetical reasons behind things that may or may not happen.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Nohwear wrote:
I always offer to show the GM my noncore stuff as soon as I sit down.

Thats.. really a bit of a relic these days. I can't remember the last time i saw a character that wasn't sporting some non core stuff


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
I always offer to show the GM my noncore stuff as soon as I sit down.
Thats.. really a bit of a relic these days. I can't remember the last time i saw a character that wasn't sporting some non core stuff

It sounds like they mean noncore as in campaign setting or player companions.

2/5

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I can appreciate the benefits of auditing PCs. Our local lodge has a tradition of doing a full audit before running PCs through one of the seeker arcs, and it seems to benefit both players and GMs. I found that I was missing a few thousand gold while tallying up my chronicle sheets vs my ITS vs my character sheet for example, one of our other players found that some of his archetypes weren't as compatible as he thought.

However, when I hear audits at conventions, I don't have a positive reaction. Locally, our conventions aren't friendly to pre-mustering, so tables are typically seated a few minutes before slot start, and we have 4-hour slots in which to run. That leaves about 0 time to do anything more involved than asking if players are at the right table, have their character sheets and chronicle sheets, and to do a relatively brief character introduction.

At GenCon this year, I had a thouroughly negative audit experience in which our GM wasted the first half-hour of the Solstice Scar checking whether we had all of our books (requesting and looking at additional resources, checking if .pdfs opened and were watermarked, etc). This added no value at all, got our backs up when he bounced one of our group for not having brought all of his hardcopy resources (yes, technically illegal not to have done so) and we completely missed out on the investigation and roleplay part of the special.

We only got out of audit hell when we were thrown right into "go to the museum, s$!$'s happening" part of the special by HQ announcing that we should be going there.

There is a time and a place for everything, limited time-slots don't seem to be the best place for "papers please".

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