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Well, my take on it is this: You can't get any thing right or wrong about something that doesn't exist. It's subjective only.
EDIT: Sorry, that came across as somewhat snarky. I'm in a bad zone right now and my politeness filter isn't working well.
But there really isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to imagine a dragon. For all we know "Pete's Dragon" is the correct way. Now I do have my preferences; the movie version of Smaug, Vermithrax from "Dragonslayer", the 3.x and PF versions, and 2e took a step in the right direction away from 1e's versions which were just lizards with bad breath. I've never watched or read GoT, so I have no opinions on those.
So again, I can't say I think there is a "right" way to imagine a dragon. And it certainly isn't that pop band, either. But please accept my apologies for the snarkiness. Just having a bad day.
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MLP got it right.
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And no worries about snarkiness. I hope you have a better day tomorrow.
Thanks. I truly appreciate it. And I hope I do, too. And that you do, as well!
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I like D&D/Pathfinder dragons and bookSmaug, but I haven't seen any setting "get dragons right" IMO as well as Shadowrun. I've never seen players more worried and fearful for their PCs against truly pissing off a SR dragon and then not being able to kill it. The setting truly understands how damn deviously intelligent and ruthless they should be.
My main problem in Shadowrun was being able to hit anything at all.
i was pleased with Earthdawn's(RPG)portrayal of dragons. (it overlapped with shadowruns)
Also tossing my vote in on Smaug and Vermithrax. Dragotha was pretty sweet as well once you got his whole story.
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Considering that Medieval artwork of dragons often shows them as being not much larger than the horse of the knight fighting them, I like the idea of them actually being much smaller than they look, and using extremely powerful Illusion magic (which bypasses even the ordinary versions of Antimagic Field and True Seeing, as well as ordinary disbelief even with instruction from someone who knows better) to make themselves look much bigger than they actually are, and even to protect themselves from magic. If you find a legendary "vulnerable spot" on the dragon, it means that you actually properly localized the dragon within its illusion.
This allows them not only to fly with something short of super-advanced robotic aerospace technology, but also to consume a small enough amount of food that noticeable numbers of them can actually exist on an (at least somewhat) Earth-like world without having to be plugged into some kind of divine overhead power for sustenance.
This also means that people have a chance of winning a fight with them individually, but only if they are exceptionally capable of piercing Illusions, which would be even more important than their martial or magical skill.
I don't know of any setting that actually does the above, but I was inspired by a late 1970s/early 1980s magazine cover (I think it was actually an issue of Dragon, but I could be mis-remembering) that showed a knight trying without much success to face down a truly enormous dragon, from behind which extended a hose to a bicycle tire pump operated by a much smaller real dragon (the enormous one was actually an inflatable decoy), not much bigger than the knight.
I didn't really like the Hobbit movies much, but I did think that they got the whole "Dragons are in a league of their own" feel right.
I agree with Ambrosia Slaad wrt Shadowrun as well. One of the few RPGs where (to me) they didn't feel like just a tough monster.
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As it appears is the case with several others, Tolkien’s description of Smaug (along with the art in my 10-year old self’s copy of The Hobbit) helped inform my vision of what a dragon ‘should’ be. I think for the most part 3.x D&D and Pathfinder also got it pretty right.
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A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.
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Don't forget Toothless!
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A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.
Yeah, Smaug was great in the RB cartoon, but holy sh!t Brother Theodore's Gollum was terrifying to lil me.
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A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.Yeah, Smaug was great in the RB cartoon, but holy sh!t Brother Theodore's Gollum was terrifying to lil me.
Serkis' Gollum/Smeagal, for me, is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Love Brother Theodore's Gollum!
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I'm back and hopefully less snarky than before. My only complaint with the dragons of D&D and PF is there are far too many varieties. I was quite happy with the original ten chromatics, and mildly interested in the Asian dragons. But the others I could truly do without. I didn't like how they changed the green dragon's breath weapon to an acidic cone; I've thought about changing it to a more deadly version of Cloudkill to better reflect the old 1e and 2e versions. Aside from these gripes, I like the PF dragons quite a bit.
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I'm back and hopefully less snarky than before. My only complaint with the dragons of D&D and PF is there are far too many varieties. I was quite happy with the original ten chromatics, and mildly interested in the Asian dragons. But the others I could truly do without. I didn't like how they changed the green dragon's breath weapon to an acidic cone; I've thought about changing it to a more deadly version of Cloudkill to better reflect the old 1e and 2e versions. Aside from these gripes, I like the PF dragons quite a bit.
I suggest making it gaseous contact poison dealing hp damage on par with a black dragon's acid damage. Green dragons that are old enough to cast 3rd level spells are likely to master dispel magic first and foremost. Slather dinner in a blast or two of poison gas, then dispel their delay poison and watch 'em die.
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Serkis' Gollum/Smeagal, for me, is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Love Brother Theodore's Gollum!A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.Yeah, Smaug was great in the RB cartoon, but holy sh!t Brother Theodore's Gollum was terrifying to lil me.
You mean I'm not the only person who still loves the Rankin/Bass version of The Hobbit? Yeah, their Smaug was AWESOME to me as a kid; and Gollum, yikes!
For that matter the animated version of 'Fifteen Birds In Five Fir Trees' had a creepy feel to a little kid who realized that the Goblins were singing delightedly about the chance to burn people alive.
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Dragonheart - worst dragon ever (for me)
Dragon Slayer - best
dragonahem, Drake, ever (for me)
I'd forgotten about Dragonheart. Thanks for bringing that up. (shudder). And Vermithrax from Dragonslayer, using what was then called "fast motion animation" was a spectacular monster. I still watch that movie occasionally.
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Serkis' Gollum/Smeagal, for me, is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Love Brother Theodore's Gollum!A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.Yeah, Smaug was great in the RB cartoon, but holy sh!t Brother Theodore's Gollum was terrifying to lil me.You mean I'm not the only person who still loves the Rankin/Bass version of The Hobbit? Yeah, their Smaug was AWESOME to me as a kid; and Gollum, yikes!
For that matter the animated version of 'Fifteen Birds In Five Fir Trees' had a creepy feel to a little kid who realized that the Goblins were singing delightedly about the chance to burn people alive.
The Mirkwood spiders in RB's The Hobbit were also scarier than in Jackson's The Hobbit.
I guess it's been too long since I saw R&B's version of "The Hobbit". I don't remember any of it being that good.
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Vermithrax was a classic, definitely. But the dragons from Reign of Fire and Game of Thrones are also very cool, visually.
Smaug looked a little too CGI, I thought. I think they tried to put a little of Cumberbatch into his facial movements, and it dove right into my uncanny valley. Or maybe they showed too much of him, and I got jaded to it too fast, or something.
I do prefer AD&D/PF dragons for being four legged and winged, as opposed to the more common 'movie' dragon, with two legs and wings (which, growing up on AD&D, feels more like a wyvern to me).
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Baldur's Gate II got dragons right - as epic encounters. At least as long you didn't pull any cheesy tactic from a text file you found in the net... ;)
Nope, just a save right after buffing to the 9's the best I could, and getting down to it :)
BG II Dragons...good ref Sheepish!
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The Mirkwood spiders in RB's The Hobbit were also scarier than in Jackson's The Hobbit.
I just felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of nerds had suddenly cried out in anger... and then slap-fighting... so much slap-fighting...
Vermithrax was a classic, definitely. But the dragons from Reign of Fire and Game of Thrones are also very cool, visually.
Smaug looked a little too CGI, I thought. I think they tried to put a little of Cumberbatch into his facial movements, and it dove right into my uncanny valley. Or maybe they showed too much of him, and I got jaded to it too fast, or something.
I do prefer AD&D/PF dragons for being four legged and winged, as opposed to the more common 'movie' dragon, with two legs and wings (which, growing up on AD&D, feels more like a wyvern to me).
IIRC they strapped Cumberbatch into a mapping suit the same way they did with Serkis for filming Gollum's scenes.
My main 'issue', such as it is, is the overlong length of Jackson's Hobbit trilogy, which should have been a pair of films instead of 10 or so hours of over-inflation.
Smaug's appearance on The Colbert Report was highly amusing though, reminding me of Shadowrun's dragon that became President. :)
It has been driving me crazy how a lot of modern games and movies have been taking the 'wyvern' shortcut with their dragons. Dragons with only two legs and two wings may seem more 'realistic', but they lack something when compared to the four legged designs. They seem like overgrown dinosaurs rather than fantasy creatures.
/rant over
I think D&D, the Hobbit (book), and World of Warcraft all do a pretty good job with dragons. I have been less impressed with Skyrim, Game of Thrones, and The Hobbit (movie) because of their wyvern wanta be dragons.
I've always had this thing about dragons representd without 4 legs. I mean Drogon is bad assed, but doesn't seem like a dragon, just a large drake.
Am I a limb-elitist? :P
Possible exception is Vermithax Perjorative. How they got that much emotion out of a puppet. Amazeballs.
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Quadrupedal, sextupedal (?) including 2 wing-limbs, dragons are 'Western'. Other cultures' dragons don't have wings at all, some are mustachio'd serpents. Bad-ass mustachio'd serpents, to be sure.
Ahh, true. I tend to favor "western" style dragons, vs "eastern".
They are pretty cool as well, though.
What about, like, Puff, man? He was, like, the magic dragon. And check it out--he traveled around with Jackie Paper. Paper man! Paper!
Think about it...
Oh, I like both 'western' and 'eastern' dragons. I just don't really consider wyvern types to be 'real' dragons even if they usually fall into the western category ;)
Considering that Medieval artwork of dragons often shows them as being not much larger than the horse of the knight fighting them, I like the idea of them actually being much smaller than they look, and using extremely powerful Illusion magic (which bypasses even the ordinary versions of Antimagic Field and True Seeing, as well as ordinary disbelief even with instruction from someone who knows better) to make themselves look much bigger than they actually are, and even to protect themselves from magic. If you find a legendary "vulnerable spot" on the dragon, it means that you actually properly localized the dragon within its illusion.
Dragons were depicted as smaller because medieval artists wouldn't paint any dragonslaying saint as being noticeably smaller than said dragon because that would undermine the symbolic meaning of the painting.
Medieval European artists were all Catholic and the slaying of a dragon was an act symbolic of the goodness of The Lord smiting the inferior powers of darkness, a metaphorical recreating of Micheal casting Lucifer out of Heaven, Jesus triumphing over sin, and the like.
You couldn't have Saint George be too much smaller than the dragon because it wouldn't line up with the message the Church was pushing, especially if said dragon was the size of a jet engine liner and the dragonslayer was painted to scale.
The artists' priority was much more centered around getting across the symbolism the Church wanted, not being accurate to any lore about a dragon's size.
As to the OP: here's a dragon that hasn't been mentioned yet that I'm particularly fond of; the dragon from John Gardner's Grendel.
{. . .}
Medieval European artists were all Catholic and the slaying of a dragon was an act symbolic of the goodness of The Lord smiting the inferior powers of darkness, a metaphorical recreating of Micheal casting Lucifer out of Heaven, Jesus triumphing over sin, and the like.You couldn't have Saint George be too much smaller than the dragon because it wouldn't line up with the message the Church was pushing, especially if said dragon was the size of a jet engine liner and the dragonslayer was painted to scale.
{. . .}
Well, since the Catholic church MADE a good part of the dragon lore, this doesn't seem to be a problem . . . .
Point taken though. Suddenly I just realized that given the Ancient Egyptian depiction of pharoahs as Gargantuan to Colossal, an AP like Mummy's Mask should have the Final Boss be Titanically (and perhaps unexpectedly) Colossal . . . actually that sounds pretty cool now that I think about it.
That's all pre perspective pictural conventions, the most important thing in the picture, be it Pharaoh, Jesus (as a baby or as an adult) or a saint, is always the biggest element. The rest vary in size depending on importance.
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I'm back and hopefully less snarky than before. My only complaint with the dragons of D&D and PF is there are far too many varieties. I was quite happy with the original ten chromatics, and mildly interested in the Asian dragons. But the others I could truly do without. I didn't like how they changed the green dragon's breath weapon to an acidic cone; I've thought about changing it to a more deadly version of Cloudkill to better reflect the old 1e and 2e versions. Aside from these gripes, I like the PF dragons quite a bit.
I can't say I am all that impressed with dragons in most DnD settings (including Pathfinder). With the exception of Dragonlance, generally they just come off as window dressing and setting color, without much major impact on the world. I have always felt like if you are going to have dragons, they should have a significance presence, especially the uber powerful great wyrms that sometimes pop up in fantasy fiction.
Just compare the role and impact on the setting in Pathfinder with other fantastical creatures. Devils, Demons, Aboleth, and even giants all have a major impact and are tightly intertwined with the setting lore. Dragons in the contrast are mostly just relegated to henchmen of other badguys.
As for favorites, yeah GoT right now is on top of that list as far as dragons depicted in the media go. But Vermithrax, Smaug, and others are also pretty awesome.
I'll admit I've used dragons in my current campaign like this, and it really diminishes their wonder. In a campaign I ran back in the entire decade of the 90s the players encountered 3 dragons, and they were major story elements, not just oversized lizards with halitosis.
In my first 1e campaign there was a blue dragon named Thunderstriker that ruled a vast swath of a desert. The players sometimes had to deal with her to cross the wastes, and sometimes she let them, and sometimes she didn't. But she was the only dragon in that campaign and they gave her plenty of respect.
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I like the dragons as depicted in Ursula LeGuin's The Earthsea Trilogy. And Smaug, of course.
I like the Discworld dragons, but in a different sort of way.
I think that whoever came up with the PBS kids' show Dragon Tales is less than worthy of an honorable death.
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If you don't believe in dragons,
It is curiously true
That the dragons you disparage
Choose to not believe in you!
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Serkis' Gollum/Smeagal, for me, is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Love Brother Theodore's Gollum!A big 'sell' of Smaug as how an evil dragon 'should' be is the Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit's voice actor's performance of Smaug. I like Cumberbatch's performance, don't get me wrong ... but Richard Boone's vocal performance I like a bit better. Don't get me started on Gollum.Yeah, Smaug was great in the RB cartoon, but holy sh!t Brother Theodore's Gollum was terrifying to lil me.
Funny you should say that - I also found Serkis' Smeagol/Gollum smewhat like fingernails on a chalkboard*, but that is precisely why I think it was so good.
*I wonder how many of the young 'uns out there even know what fingernails on a chalkboard sound like. So many schools have white marker boards nowadays.
The Dragonriders of Pern was always a favorite.
Agreed on Eragon. May not be the best literature to grace the human race, but I think the author nails a dragon's majesty, ferocity and outlook well.
The backstory with the Elves vs the Dragons is very interesting as well.
When the Elves moved to the continent the books take place on, they assumed that since dragons did not speak aloud, that they were dumb beasts to be hunted for sport. They learned otherwise the hard way, and decades of war with the giant fire-breathing intelligent magical beasts ensued. The dragon riders were formed by way of a treaty as a way to make sure that didn't happen again.
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I'll admit I've used dragons in my current campaign like this, and it really diminishes their wonder. In a campaign I ran back in the entire decade of the 90s the players encountered 3 dragons, and they were major story elements, not just oversized lizards with halitosis.
In my first 1e campaign there was a blue dragon named Thunderstriker that ruled a vast swath of a desert. The players sometimes had to deal with her to cross the wastes, and sometimes she let them, and sometimes she didn't. But she was the only dragon in that campaign and they gave her plenty of respect.
I did much the same in a long-running Forgotten Realms homebrew. There were only a few known dragons in the world, one of each chromatic color.
The red dragon was the 'end boss' of a kobold, hobgoblin and fire-giant 'Empire of Flame' marching down from the (volcanic) mountains. It would start at low levels, with displaced humanoids from the mountains (including hobgoblins who wouldn't get with the pogram, so to speak, and goblins and bugbears, who weren't even welcome as slaves), and progress up until epic battles with the azer who provided their weapons, the half-fire giant 'dukes,' the noble efreeti vizier, etc. before facing the dragon himself. The singular blue dragon was a 'Storm Queen' who raided shipping lanes pretty much at will, and arrived with a storm and a flight of winged kobolds who picked goods and victims off of the ships she scuttled. The white dragon was the least impressive, and had more of an alliance than people serving him, but since the alliance was with a tribe of frost giants, it was still pretty buff. The black dragon ruled a swampy region infested with undead, and was, herself, both a necromancer and undead, using some combination of necromancy and illusion (shadow) magic to make her region a dark reflection of her own personal journey into horror. And nobody knew about the green dragon, because she'd spent the last 800 or so years as the beautiful ageless and fickle queen of a supremacist elven nation that owed more than a little bit of it's reputation for jaded decadence to my growing up reading about Melniboneans.
No metallics, at least not appearing in game (although there might have been a gold dragon in the Seven Heavens and silver, brass, copper and bronze dragons in the planes of Air, Fire, Earth and Water, respectively). Whatever role metallic dragons would serve was left to good aligned PCs, nations and power groups.
Basically, I wanted the dragons, if they appeared, to be like AP end-game encounters (particularly the red dragon, although taking down the white dragon and it's allies could actually be a trial run at facing the red, sort of proof to the PCs and their allies that the red *could,* in theory, actually be killed, since most people would take the notion of 'going to kill a dragon' about as seriously as someone saying their going to kill the Tarrasque).
It was a (violent over)reaction to the 1st edition dragons, who had, at absolute most, 88 hit points, and could be beaten into submission and used as mounts. 2nd and 3rd editions added such majesty to them (and boatloads more hit points) that I wanted them bigger and badder than ever (and novels like Spellfire, or settings like Dragonlance, where they fell from the skies like rain, at times, also stirred up a desire to sort of 'reclaim' them).
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After several campaigns where dragons were used like that, I reacted in the opposite direction - There are only a few of the truly powerful ancient dragons, but the younger ones were pretty common. Enough so, that when a clutch of eggs hatched and the locals started seeing wyrmlings in the area a hunt would be called out. You don't want to let them grow up and become really dangerous.
That also could be cool.
Or making it a Legacy of Heorot situation, where it's not immediately obvious that the 'wyrmlings' are the all-too-common larval stage of the great wyrms, and that, denied competition for resources (and cannibalism...) those pesky animal intelligence drakes could grow up to become city-destroyers with beyond human intellect and spellcasting capabilities.
Your party thinks it's doing a service by cleaning out nests and warrens and tangles teeming with drakes, only to have the one or two survivors of this purge get a chance to hunker down and hibernate and transform into a *real* threat...