Perhaps I'm slow but I just noticed that the damage scaling for a 2-action elemental blast falls behind that of a 2-action cantrip. Elemental blast adds 1 die every 4 character levels, while most damaging cantrips adds 1 die every 2 character levels. For example, at character level 5, a 2-action air blast would do 2d6+4 while a telekinetic projectile would do 3d6+4. (The comparison is more difficult with a d8 elemental blast vs d4 cantrip, but eventually, the cantrip will still overtake eventually.)
Of course, kineticist can use gate attenuators to increase their attack modifiers. But otherwise, my sense then is that by design kineticists should seldom use their 2-action blasts? That kind of makes sense, because they would typically have other more useful 2-action impulses which are more powerful than cantrips and which they can effectively use like cantrips. And the 1-action elemental blast is still useful when they have a spare action, while most spellcasting classes don't have 1-action damaging options.
Just want to check my understanding? Thanks!
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Actually, in the early levels, if you have a melee Kineticist, a 2 action blast can be quite strong.
My Water/wood kinny does 1d8+7 with a 2 action melee blast.
I know that as I go up in level I'll use it a lot less often, but it's nice to know I can be effective in melee if necessary.
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Elemental blast adds 1 die every 4 character levels, while most damaging cantrips adds 1 die every 2 character levels. For example, at character level 5, a 2-action air blast would do 2d6+4 while a telekinetic projectile would do 3d6+4. (The comparison is more difficult with a d8 elemental blast vs d4 cantrip, but eventually, the cantrip will still overtake eventually.)
With the Remaster all Cantrips are going to be losing the extra damage added from the Ability Score Modifier and RoE is built with that fully in mind.
So, once the Remaster hits it will go from that example you provided to where the average Blast will deal 12 damage (2x4 + 4) and provide a higher "floor" for damage (min 6 damage) versus the average for the Cantrip will be the same 12(3x4) with a lower floor. Couple that with the fact that if you are doing it in melee you get to add your Str Mod to this and the fact that the Air Blast, like Fire, is a d6 Blast instead of the d8 like the other four elements and TKP being a particularly cherry-picked Cantrip with a higher than normal damage die and most of the time the Blast will always come out on top, PLUS BONUS, the Kineticist can/will always end up getting a Gate Attenuator that grants even more accuracy over what any Spellcaster could ever get from Cantrips.
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Yeah this feels very cherry-picked, I think the best comparison point would be Fire Elemental Blast vs Ignition. Because Ignition is a post-Remaster cantrip that has a difference in damage between ranged and melee and favors melee for dealing damage.
And of course that is for theorycrafting where you have two characters each trying to do the 'same' thing. Rather than a more practical use case where each character tries to do 'their best' thing. Which for the spellcaster may be something more like Timber to hit multiple targets, and for Fire Kineticist it might be spending two actions on Flying Flame for the same reason (and Flying Flame also has better scaling).
Even doing just a 'same two-action no-resource-cost' thing you have Slashing Gust vs Aerial Boomerang. Which again compares rather favorably to Kineticist.
The way I read elemental blast is that a 2 action melee blast adds both strength and constitution. So a two action melee fire blast at level one could potentially be 1d6(or d8)+3+4 if I am understanding this correctly. This would scale into 5d6+5+7
The way I read elemental blast is that a 2 action melee blast adds both strength and constitution. So a two action melee fire blast at level one could potentially be 1d6(or d8)+3+4 if I am understanding this correctly. This would scale into 5d6+5+7
That 5d6+7+5 (29.5 average) damage in melee doesn't compare that well to Telekinetic Projectile dealing 8d6+7 (35 average) damage out to 30 ft. at level 16, a level earlier than the elemental blast comes online, and then scaling to 10d6+7 (42 average) at level 20 while elemental blast has already stopped scaling. That +2 accuracy isn't making up for the extra range and base damage.
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You should be using the weapon infusion feat, and one of the d8 elemental blasts, for more damage and better range.
Probably a one action attack, combined with a saving throw based impulse.
You should be using the weapon infusion feat, and one of the d8 elemental blasts, for more damage and better range.
Probably a one action attack, combined with a saving throw based impulse.
If we're spending a feat you can combine TKP with Force Bolt and if you've chosen to Unleash Psyche there's no way the Kineticist is touching that damage. If we're comparing classes that can blast all day long Psychic > Kineticist.
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The way I read elemental blast is that a 2 action melee blast adds both strength and constitution. So a two action melee fire blast at level one could potentially be 1d6(or d8)+3+4 if I am understanding this correctly. This would scale into 5d6+5+7That 5d6+7+5 (29.5 average) damage in melee doesn't compare that well to Telekinetic Projectile dealing 8d6+7 (35 average) damage out to 30 ft. at level 16, a level earlier than the elemental blast comes online, and then scaling to 10d6+7 (42 average) at level 20 while elemental blast has already stopped scaling. That +2 accuracy isn't making up for the extra range and base damage.
If we want to maximize elemental blasts we are looking at grabbing fire for the bigger die, inflicting weakness and passive damage to enemies close to us, and furnace form adding another die. So 6d8+5+7+10(weakness) plus the passive damage of the nimbus for another 10+10(weakness) not accounting for mixing this up with other impulses and doing a 1 action blast as a follow up. That's 49 average for the two action impulse plus another 20 for just standing next to the enemy bringing you to 69(nice)
Adding in the +1 and +2 to hit over spellcasters and the fact the aura can be up to 20 feet around you, not hurt allies and hit at least the one enemy you're trying to hit really brings the DPR quite a bit above cantrips
Yeah, pyro absolutely takes the cake with all day blasting.
Yeah, particularly if we consider the actual turn by turn at will blast effects. They do less damage than fireball or chain lighting, but that's a given, those are a limited resource and this is a once a turn or every other turn thing. The above comparison to distant grasp psychic is an apt one, but I think Pyrokineticist is going to come out ahead in terms of sustained damage, but a psychic will come out ahead in terms of crowd control, buffing, utility, debuffs by virtue of being a caster and the distant grasp specifically gets great crowd control spells given to them by default
If we want to maximize elemental blasts we are looking at grabbing fire for the bigger die, inflicting weakness and passive damage to enemies close to us, and furnace form adding another die. So 6d8+5+7+10(weakness) plus the passive damage of the nimbus for another 10+10(weakness) not accounting for mixing this up with other impulses and doing a 1 action blast as a follow up. That's 49 average for the two action impulse plus another 20 for just standing next to the enemy bringing you to 69(nice)
Adding in the +1 and +2 to hit over spellcasters and the fact the aura can be up to 20 feet around you, not hurt allies and hit at least the one enemy you're trying to hit really brings the DPR quite a bit above cantrips
Then we're obviously going to compare this to a Psychic using Unleash Psyche, Telekinetic Blast, and Force Bolt. So that's 10d6+7+20 (62) followed by an auto-hitting 5d4+5+20 (37.5) damage. Yes, you can't do that round one, but there's a good chance the Kineticist can't get their combo off reliably on turn one either.
Then we're obviously going to compare this to a Psychic using Unleash Psyche, Telekinetic Blast, and Force Bolt. So that's 10d6+7+20 (62) followed by an auto-hitting 5d4+5+20 (37.5) damage. Yes, you can't do that round one, but there's a good chance the Kineticist can't get their combo off reliably on turn one either.If we want to maximize elemental blasts we are looking at grabbing fire for the bigger die, inflicting weakness and passive damage to enemies close to us, and furnace form adding another die. So 6d8+5+7+10(weakness) plus the passive damage of the nimbus for another 10+10(weakness) not accounting for mixing this up with other impulses and doing a 1 action blast as a follow up. That's 49 average for the two action impulse plus another 20 for just standing next to the enemy bringing you to 69(nice)
Adding in the +1 and +2 to hit over spellcasters and the fact the aura can be up to 20 feet around you, not hurt allies and hit at least the one enemy you're trying to hit really brings the DPR quite a bit above cantrips
Force bolt requires wizard MCD and does not get the +20 because it isn't cast using psychic spellcasting. I believe you meant magic missile's new name which I'm forgetting, which would get the bonus and do 5d4+5+20, using a 9th level spell slot :) Mind you, telekinetic projectile will likely be 11d6 after remaster, averaging 38.5, but also you have no reason not to fully burst and make your Telekinetic Projectile d8s with focus points to get to 49.5. Unleash also only lasts 2 rounds and leaves you very weak after. It's better burst than the kineticist, but worse sustain
Aobst also brings up molten wire which is really awesome adding another trigger each turn that exploits the weakness, and ofc the kineticist will actually be nuking with their overflow abilities every other round to really lay down the damage
Unleash seems like something you want to save for when you're reasonably certain you'll win with it in the next 2 rounds. I wouldn't use it to buff on the second round except for trivial encounters. It's definitely good damage though. Not sure what the "best" combo of spells for damage is with it but amps are probably what you want to be using instead of something like force bolt.
Like I said, you can't even add the damage to force bolt, it's a wizard focus spell. Unleash explicitly only buffs spells using psychic spellcasting. So literally anything is a better option.
When you cast a damaging spell, you gain a status bonus to its damage equal to double the spell's level. This applies only to spells that don't have a duration and that you cast using psychic spellcasting.
Ofc yes, unleash psyche is something you do at the end of a fight or if you're desperate for more damage. I am not sure how the status bonus is handles. To demonstrate the question, when you cast a level 1 magic missile at 3 targets one missile each, do they each take 1d4+1+2 or does only one take 1d4+1+2 and the other two take 1d4+1. I am certain it isn't an each missile thing, that would be absurd. A 9th level magic missile at 3 actions would be 15d4+15+270(18x15). Oh I just realized a 9th level magic missile only gets +18, so you'd have to burn a 10th level slot for what 3BP meant, and burn it on a 1 action magic missile. Not crazy about that idea
Oh and edit to add this:
Weirdly enough, I think pyro's dpr is better without overflows since you can keep nimbus active if you just use flying flame and weapon blasts. That is unless you have significantly more targets you can hit with a larger aoe.
Well, yeah, if you use 3 action overflow and can't channel elements each turn you'll do this every other turn. So yeah, DPR is probably better using two action rather than 3 action abilities unless you grab the hasted level 20 feat. Which would be relevant in this comparison between pyro and psychic
A low level magic missile might be a decent idea just to add that bonus a second time after an amp. I'd probably want to use that action for true strike though. Or one of the cool psyche actions.
the bonus is equal to twice the spell's level so a low rank 1 action magic missile won't get much damage. Just +2 for a rank 1, +4 for 2 and so on. Not quite the +20 3BP wants
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The status bonus to damage on Magic Missle is once per target, regardless of how many missles they are hit with.
Oh yeah, I thought it was based on character level. That's much worse.A low level magic missile might be a decent idea just to add that bonus a second time after an amp. I'd probably want to use that action for true strike though. Or one of the cool psyche actions.the bonus is equal to twice the spell's level so a low rank 1 action magic missile won't get much damage. Just +2 for a rank 1, +4 for 2 and so on. Not quite the +20 3BP wants
It is and it isn't. During the playtest one of my complaints about the playtest version of unleash psyche was that it only affected slotted spells and didn't interact with cantrips which were meant to be your bread and butter. Now it works with cantrips which auto heighten. I believe the playtest version was damage based on character level or something, but I believe it was weaker. It also gave you free focus points for the durations which was part of my complaint. I stated that these two elements of the design implied different things you were supposed to do during unleash psyche. The free focus points incentivized using cantrips but the bonus damage only applies to slotted spells. It's much better now if you ask me
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If we're spending a feat you can combine TKP with Force Bolt and if you've chosen to Unleash Psyche there's no way the Kineticist is touching that damage. If we're comparing classes that can blast all day long Psychic > Kineticist.You should be using the weapon infusion feat, and one of the d8 elemental blasts, for more damage and better range.
Probably a one action attack, combined with a saving throw based impulse.
No this is about working out how to play the base Kineticist not tacking on some theoretically optimal build.
The Pyschic needs to be doing better with it temporarily boosted cantrip as they are the main attack feature of what is a comparatively fragile class. Kineticists have other powers as their main feature. Elemental Blast is a secondary.
You are better off comparing the Kineticist 1 action Elemental Blast with a weapon attack - that is more relevant.
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@3BP: Do you understand the concept of cherry-picking and why it is frowned on?
The entire argument you are making drips with hidden agenda vibes. It feels like you are deliberately picking the worst possible damage options of Kineticist and comparing that to the best possible damage spells of the best possible other classes ... and then what? Try to argue that Kineticist needs a damage buff?
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The big takeaway from this thread is that cantrips don't compare badly to elemental blasts because they don't actually compare at all. Cantrips do one very specific thing outside of the psychic which devotes both its class budget and limited resource pool to doing them better. Elemental blast can do a million different things depending on your build, and two action blasts are just one of them.
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I mean, it's probably not a great idea to use two action blasts at higher levels. A proper pyro is going to outdo that math easily with flying flame, nimbus, ignite the sun, and one action basts. The purpose of the 2 action version isn't to be the go to damage option. It's just so every element can have a 2 action impulse for their junction.
Edit: additional points of the pyro. Furnace form becomes something you can keep permanently at level 16. Molten wire can add some additional damage over time to trigger the aura junction. Pyro hurts if you want it to. Especially with larger fights.
In general I do think 2 action elemental blast is really weird. I feel like it should have some sort of scaling to make it used later in the game. It is good from level 1-4, maybe okay at 5 and after 9 I don't think it is ever good to use.
In reality it doesn't make much a difference. By level 9+ you will have so many different impulses and abilities. When you have 2 actions you will most just want to use a different impulse and maybe sometimes do two single action blast.
The only really use for it is proccing your impulse junction if you have no better options for it later.
Power attack isn't particularly good but at least it has some scaling and pretends to be good late game :)
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It seems pretty clear that 3BP is just a troll. Every time they pop up in a thread it's to stir the pot.@3BP: Do you understand the concept of cherry-picking and why it is frowned on?
The entire argument you are making drips with hidden agenda vibes. It feels like you are deliberately picking the worst possible damage options of Kineticist and comparing that to the best possible damage spells of the best possible other classes ... and then what? Try to argue that Kineticist needs a damage buff?
I don't think they're a troll. They are one of the people being told to play the kineticist because it's everything they want from a caster, but the fact it isn't actually "casting spells" so to speak has apparently made it somehow impossible for them to understand the class as a caster class. So I think they are looking for reasons not to play a kineticist. They bring up wanting a pyromancer a lot too, and fire kineticist is right there. 3BP would love the class, it's everything they want. They just need to talk to their GM about flavoring the impulses as spells and they'd be golden
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Force bolt requires wizard MCD and does not get the +20 because it isn't cast using psychic spellcasting.
No, I literally just missed that it didn't work. I was hoping to find a good one-action focus spell that would benefit from the Unleashed Psyche for excellent all-day blasting.
I believe you meant magic missile's new name which I'm forgetting, which would get the bonus and do 5d4+5+20, using a 9th level spell slot :) Mind you, telekinetic projectile will likely be 11d6 after remaster, averaging 38.5, but also you have no reason not to fully burst and make your Telekinetic Projectile d8s with focus points to get to 49.5. Unleash also only lasts 2 rounds and leaves you very weak after. It's better burst than the kineticist, but worse sustain
I wouldn't do this. The point of my, incorrect, idea was to have all day blasting with a strong cantrip and focus spells.
No this is about working out how to play the base Kineticist not tacking on some theoretically optimal build.
The Pyschic needs to be doing better with it temporarily boosted cantrip as they are the main attack feature of what is a comparatively fragile class. Kineticists have other powers as their main feature. Elemental Blast is a secondary.
You are better off comparing the Kineticist 1 action Elemental Blast with a weapon attack - that is more relevant.
I was looking to compare the best all-day blasting head to head but it turns out my focus spell idea was incorrect. So the Kineticist comes out ahead.
@3BP: Do you understand the concept of cherry-picking and why it is frowned on?
The entire argument you are making drips with hidden agenda vibes. It feels like you are deliberately picking the worst possible damage options of Kineticist and comparing that to the best possible damage spells of the best possible other classes ... and then what? Try to argue that Kineticist needs a damage buff?
I literally copied the Kineticist's numbers from AestheticDialectic's post right above mine. If the numbers were low, it's because that's what was posted for comparison.
My own numbers were based on an incorrect assumption about how Unleash Psyche and MCD Focus Spells combined.
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need to talk to their GM about flavoring the impulses as spells and they'd be golden
I'm not sure that any reflavoring needs to be done.
Kineticist Impulses are not spells in name only. They don't follow the mechanical rules for spells regarding the Cantrip trait, spell slots, or focus points. But that is pretty much it.
They are magic. The Impulse rules specifically say so - in addition to the actions that cause Impulses having the Primal trait, which has the Magical trait.
They also have special rules regarding provoking like spells do (Impulse trait has the Concentrate trait unless otherwise specified), being prevented from being used for the same reasons as spells do (Polymorph battle forms for example), and they use a creature's spell resistances and immunities.
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I literally copied the Kineticist's numbers from AestheticDialectic's post right above mine. If the numbers were low, it's because that's what was posted for comparison.@3BP: Do you understand the concept of cherry-picking and why it is frowned on?
The entire argument you are making drips with hidden agenda vibes. It feels like you are deliberately picking the worst possible damage options of Kineticist and comparing that to the best possible damage spells of the best possible other classes ... and then what? Try to argue that Kineticist needs a damage buff?
So... no.
The point is that there is a fundamental flaw in this comparison. Does it really matter that the worst ability of option #1 is worse than the best ability of option #2?
The worst meal made by the worst cook at a 5-star restaurant is in fact worse than the best hamburger made at a fast food place. There is no surprise there, and there is no generalization that can be made from that bit of data.
Similarly, the worst damage dealing option of Kineticist (the default Elemental Blast that literally every Kineticist gets for free so that they have to have at least one damage option) is worse than the best option (Unleashe Psyche, Amped Imaginary Weapon) of the best non-Kineticist class.
The data point that this comparison creates cannot be generalized to a trend. It was cherry-picked.
The point is that there is a fundamental flaw in this comparison. Does it really matter that the worst ability of option #1 is worse than the best ability of option #2?
The worst meal made by the worst cook at a 5-star restaurant is in fact worse than the best hamburger made at a fast food place. There is no surprise there, and there is no generalization that can be made from that bit of data.
Similarly, the worst damage dealing option of Kineticist (the default Elemental Blast that literally every Kineticist gets for free so that they have to have at least one damage option) is worse than the best option (Unleashe Psyche, Amped Imaginary Weapon) of the best non-Kineticist class.
The data point that this comparison creates cannot be generalized to a trend. It was cherry-picked.
I don't know what a good Kineticist build looks like so I was taking the one posted in this thread as a decent baseline. If you weren't so tunnel-visioned on attacking my character for no good reason, you might have noticed that when better numbers were posted for the Kineticist I used those instead.
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I don't think they're a troll. They are one of the people being told to play the kineticist because it's everything they want from a caster, but the fact it isn't actually "casting spells" so to speak has apparently made it somehow impossible for them to understand the class as a caster class. So I think they are looking for reasons not to play a kineticist. They bring up wanting a pyromancer a lot too, and fire kineticist is right there. 3BP would love the class, it's everything they want. They just need to talk to their GM about flavoring the impulses as spells and they'd be golden
Generally, I am the GM for the games I run and am pretty liberal about how people can flavor things and what edge case combinations I'll allow in a build. That doesn't come through here very much as I'm not all that interested in talking house rules or table variation when there are hard RAW numbers to focus on instead. I know I can fix the game for my table and build characters that are fun to play even if they aren't topping the DPS charts but there's nothing interesting to discuss in that.
I'm the guy who picks good apart in search of great and complains the most and the loudest about things I generally like. If I hated PF2 like some posters here seem to think I do, I'd have drifted away by now the way I've done with 40k.
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I'm not trying to attack character.
I'm trying to explain a concept.
I didn't start the topic by accusing you of being a troll. I asked a question about your understanding of a concept of logic and reasoning. Because I don't want to spend time and effort trying to educate someone on something that they already know.
It is like if I see someone making an incorrect statement based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how probability works (a common example being the exponential decrease of probability due to requiring repeated successes). I'm going to start by asking if they understand that particular concept of probability.
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need to talk to their GM about flavoring the impulses as spells and they'd be goldenI'm not sure that any reflavoring needs to be done.
Kineticist Impulses are not spells in name only. They don't follow the mechanical rules for spells regarding the Cantrip trait, spell slots, or focus points. But that is pretty much it.
They are magic. The Impulse rules specifically say so - in addition to the actions that cause Impulses having the Primal trait, which has the Magical trait.
They also have special rules regarding provoking like spells do (Impulse trait has the Concentrate trait unless otherwise specified), being prevented from being used for the same reasons as spells do (Polymorph battle forms for example), and they use a creature's spell resistances and immunities.
The most important flavoring needs to be done! A pointy hat ofc, and the impulses are kept in a book! Reflow elements is preparing your kinetic abilities spells
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I'm not trying to attack character.
I'm trying to explain a concept.
I didn't start the topic by accusing you of being a troll. I asked a question about your understanding of a concept of logic and reasoning. Because I don't want to spend time and effort trying to educate someone on something that they already know.
It is like if I see someone making an incorrect statement based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how probability works (a common example being the exponential decrease of probability due to requiring repeated successes). I'm going to start by asking if they understand that particular concept of probability.
You accused me of cherry-picking after I had already made a post responding to better numbers for the Kineticist. I fail to see how this is anything but an attack on my character given that you have failed to even acknowledge this point.
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You accused me of cherry-picking after I had already made a post responding to better numbers for the Kineticist. I fail to see how this is anything but an attack on my character given that you have failed to even acknowledge this point.I'm not trying to attack character.
I'm trying to explain a concept.
I didn't start the topic by accusing you of being a troll. I asked a question about your understanding of a concept of logic and reasoning. Because I don't want to spend time and effort trying to educate someone on something that they already know.
It is like if I see someone making an incorrect statement based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how probability works (a common example being the exponential decrease of probability due to requiring repeated successes). I'm going to start by asking if they understand that particular concept of probability.
You ought not to take online posts so personally. People are only ever commenting on the presentation of things as they interpret them, and never "you". Getting upset over this is not worth your time, just explain yourself and ignore what you perceive to be "attacks on [your] character". They saw what looked like cherry picking and they responded to what they understood to be such a thing, this in reality is not about you, it's about what you said and how you said it, and how that was understood by others
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You accused me of cherry-picking after I had already made a post responding to better numbers for the Kineticist. I fail to see how this is anything but an attack on my character given that you have failed to even acknowledge this point.
Oh, I am absolutely attacking the data that you are presenting.
But that is not the same as attacking your character.
Attacking data is a perfectly valid target in a logic debate.
If you confirm that you do understand what cherry-picking data is and what implications that has, then by all means continue doing so.
I'll just mention that I am not going to take your arguments seriously as a result. Cherry-picking data is fatal to any sort of meaningful reasoning based on that data.
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I'll take responsibility for introducing the term cherry picking and injecting recency bias for that subject into the thread as it is often a too-oft-used phrase that gets leveraged in order to try to reduce the impact of somebody's argument.
I will also say that it's totally fair for someone to be defensive and feel like they are under attack or being insulted in a discussion when they have already really and factually been insulted and labeled in a thread. As soon as somebody starts to get or behave defensively they will naturally start to think things that functionally are not intended by the critic as insults or attacks as being just that, it's completely and totally normal for that to happen, human nature.
Regardless, AD made a very good point that I think many here could try to really internalize about taking ANYTHING that somebody on the internet says to heart, especially if it's something you feel is nasty and feels like it may or functionally IS targeting you, the best answer to those things is always going to be to move past it and more often than not just ignore that argument and/or person you feel is personally attacking you or something you care about/believe in.
Now that I've said that... I think I'll just reinforce something I alluded to upthread and others mentioned as well, if you're trying to compare two things you should always do your best to either compare stuff that is very much middle of the pack for each category and average if doing something like a generalization instead of picking outliers (high AND/OR low) for one or both of the things you're looking at; either that or you end up having to do a crazy full on Mathmuse style breakdown analysis (God bless that soul) that tries to figure out everything from the lowest low to the highest peak for both things you're looking at. THAT is what I mentioned cherry-picking with regard to the comparison and I think the description is apt regarding the options that were initially being looked at.
Oh, I am absolutely attacking the data that you are presenting.
But that is not the same as attacking your character.
Attacking data is a perfectly valid target in a logic debate.
If you confirm that you do understand what cherry-picking data is and what implications that has, then by all means continue doing so.
I'll just mention that I am not going to take your arguments seriously as a result. Cherry-picking data is fatal to any sort of meaningful reasoning based on that data.
I understand what cherry-picking is but I dispute that I did that in this thread. I never presented my own data for the Kineticist as I haven't looked that closely at the class to know how to build them properly.
The data I present was meant to be the highest bar a Kineticist would have to clear to be the best all-day blaster in the game. I didn't disparage the Kineticist but was, mistakenly, confident that I had a build that could do better all-day single-target blasting than it could. When it was pointed out that I had made a mistake in the build I had proposed I acknowledged that in my next post.
I was never aiming to present an unbiased data set, I was looking to set a bar and see if there were Kineticist builds that could clear it. If I was looking to present an unbiased data set I would have learned the Kineticist's builds and compared them to builds of other classes. If I had intentionally chosen terrible builds for the Kineticist there and good builds for the Psychic then I would have engaged in what you have accused me of doing.
Given that I never engaged in any behavior where I could have cherry-picked anything and never set out to present my findings as unbiased I ask that you retract your claim that I was cherry-picking.
I'll take responsibility for introducing the term cherry picking and injecting recency bias for that subject into the thread as it is often a too-oft-used phrase that gets leveraged in order to try to reduce the impact of somebody's argument.
I will also say that it's totally fair for someone to be defensive and feel like they are under attack or being insulted in a discussion when they have already really and factually been insulted and labeled in a thread. As soon as somebody starts to get or behave defensively they will naturally start to think things that functionally are not intended by the critic as insults or attacks as being just that, it's completely and totally normal for that to happen, human nature.
Regardless, AD made a very good point that I think many here could try to really internalize about taking ANYTHING that somebody on the internet says to heart, especially if it's something you feel is nasty and feels like it may or functionally IS targeting you, the best answer to those things is always going to be to move past it and more often than not just ignore that argument and/or person you feel is personally attacking you or something you care about/believe in.
Now that I've said that... I think I'll just reinforce something I alluded to upthread and others mentioned as well, if you're trying to compare two things you should always do your best to either compare stuff that is very much middle of the pack for each category and average if doing something like a generalization instead of picking outliers (high AND/OR low) for one or both of the things you're looking at; either that or you end up having to do a crazy full on Mathmuse style breakdown analysis (God bless that soul) that tries to figure out everything from the lowest low to the highest peak for both things you're looking at. THAT is what I mentioned cherry-picking with regard to the comparison and I think the description is apt regarding the options that were initially being looked at.
I would be less defensive if some members of this forum hadn't made it more than clear that they don't believe I belong here.
As for math, I love math and data. I don't do that level of math here because I know I lack the system mastery to produce good data, however, on a hockey forum I frequent I do get into the numbers more, make large tables of players' stats, my predictions for their end of season point totals and the known biases in my model. In that forum, as I have the knowledge required to do so, I keep opinions and data clear from one another.