2bz2p |
3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
An interesting topic on Facebook Pathfinder page concerning polymorph, shape change or teleportation and restraints. One side takes the position a restrained character can use these spells or spell like abilities (if they have the means) to escape such bonds, others say the restraints become - effectively - your gear. So if you wanted to change form and retain your gear, you would emerge from such a change still bound. Further, if the thing you are bound to exceeds your carrying capacity you could not teleport.
This quickly degraded into RAI, one taking a position you can selectively shed gear when changing form, deciding what to keep and what not, another quite peeved at the notion that simply chaining his MU to a wall would prevent teleportation. One person stated that the idea of YOUR GEAR means only your gear would enter a polymorph, not stuff that is not your gear, which led to a statement that stolen items would have to be thus left behind, because it is not YOUR GEAR.
What no one could seem to find is if there is any RAW or errata that clarifies what constitutes gear and encumbrance and the effects on being burdened by unwanted restraints on spells. I mean, don't you chain a metal ball around a prisoners ankles to intentionally encumber them? Is there any clarity in raw as to whether changing form and keeping your gear allows escape from restrains? Can you teleport away from being chained to a wall??????
Pizza Lord |
No actual rules that specify it, so I will give you you my opinion.
I don't allow characters to just teleport out of armor, backpacks, bracelets, or manacles. It's too abuse-able to allow people to try and teleport away leaving exploding bombs or what-have-you behind from their backpack (or the whole backpack) and it's better to nix it just to avoid the headaches.
If a person is chained to a 'relatively' immovable object; a stake, a tree, a wall, then I don't consider that encumbering (unless the chain, rope, or collar is so heavy it's holding them down anyway.) I have no problem with them teleporting away and leaving them behind (in fact, they can't take them with them.)
If they're chained to something heavy or locked into a backpack full of rocks and they're encumbered, they are considered encumbered (which may make teleporting fail, as per whatever spell they are using.) I don't let someone teleport out of their pants or out of their boots of teleportation and those are things they can technically manipulate freely. I especially don't allow them control over things they aren't in full control of; locked manacles, tied ropes, etc. It's just better than opening a can of worms.
In the case of polymorph and manacles, If you change from a manacled human into an elf, you're still a manacled elf. If you change into a snake, then the manacles meld into your form. If they were attached to a wall or someone else, like two prisoners bound together, they would remain behind. When you resume a form with arms, they would reappear, although you could assume a form with smaller wrists and hands and they would slip off or be more easily removed unless they magically resized.
Again, since this is just an opinion and a ruling I make for my games because it cuts down on problems that have occurred, it's not based on a hard-written rule. Other people can have different ideas or not have a problem with characters teleporting and leaving things behind, that's a personal call.
Set |
Yeah, I don't there are any rules on whether or not you can teleport out of shackles, or turn into a bird to slough off a tanglefoot bag.
I'd allow it, unless the items were specifically designed to go with a teleporter, or prevent shapechanging. Silver manacles, for instance, are sometimes used in fantasy fiction to restrain werewolf-type shapeshifters. Cold iron would seem a logical choice to restrain other types of magical escape attempts, such as teleportation, since cold iron is generally antithetical to magic. But that's all up to the GM (and probably should be discussed with the players before being sprung on them, someone able to wild shape or dimension door should know, or be warned by the GM, that they can't shift or 'port out of manacles made from material X before attempting to do so...).
Brother Fen |
I'd say that chains are not your gear. Once players start calling things gear that aren't their actual gear, it opens up everything for abuse. Chains are chains. Your gear is your gear.
One could still cast whatever spells where the requirements are met, but the chains would not polymorph with a caster.
Scott Wilhelm |
Hehe, if a Druid were chained to a wall in a castle, if the chains were part of her gear, would the wall be part of her gear, too? How about the castle itself? When she Wildshapes, her body absorbs the whole castle? What fun!
I think it has to be the case that for something to be part of your gear, it has to be yours. When the King's Forester sees the wolf, gorged on deer, go back to sleep and change back into a Druid, and the Forester puts the Druid in shackles for poaching the King's Deer, the shackles still are owned by the Forester. For the Druid to escape, she needs to Wildshape into a mouse, too small for her restraints, and slip away. Or perhaps into something big and attempt to burst her chains.
Paradozen |
My rule of thumb is that if you are realistically capable of walking with gear, it goes with you for teleport/polymorph. So if you have shackles on they would go with you, but they would free themselves from, say, a wall. So even though there is benefit to teleporting/polymorphing away, they still have to deal with bindings eventually. That said, druids cannot go around stealing buildings because they tied themselves up to the wall.
EDIT: Forgot to include that it cannot be an animate creature (alive/undead/construct/etc), as that would be silly (grapple someone then polymorph them under your skin).
2bz2p |
Yeah, I don't there are any rules on whether or not you can teleport out of shackles, or turn into a bird to slough off a tanglefoot bag.
I'd allow it, unless the items were specifically designed to go with a teleporter, or prevent shapechanging. Silver manacles, for instance, are sometimes used in fantasy fiction to restrain werewolf-type shapeshifters. Cold iron would seem a logical choice to restrain other types of magical escape attempts, such as teleportation, since cold iron is generally antithetical to magic. But that's all up to the GM (and probably should be discussed with the players before being sprung on them, someone able to wild shape or dimension door should know, or be warned by the GM, that they can't shift or 'port out of manacles made from material X before attempting to do so...).
This is almost completely in line with how I would rule, so that puts me at ease. I might allow escaping a chain to a wall with teleport, but if your have an arm or leg bound to the ground, I am of the mindset not to allow it. Specifically I rule in the player's favor when they managed to use Rock to Mud and then Mud to Rock on a foe with teleportation. The encumbrance of being bound in the rock was too much to teleport away. But some have questioned my logic on that ruling.
2bz2p |
My rule of thumb is that if you are realistically capable of walking with gear, it goes with you for teleport/polymorph. So if you have shackles on they would go with you, but they would free themselves from, say, a wall. So even though there is benefit to teleporting/polymorphing away, they still have to deal with bindings eventually. That said, druids cannot go around stealing buildings because they tied themselves up to the wall.
EDIT: Forgot to include that it cannot be an animate creature (alive/undead/construct/etc), as that would be silly (grapple someone then polymorph them under your skin).
On your "I think it has to be the case that for something to be part of your gear, it has to be yours." notion -
1) does that mean items you carry for another are automatically not "you gear" because its not yours?
2) If you stole something you know belongs to someone else, that's certainly not "you gear", so that would also be left behind in a teleport?
3) That things you hate - load stones, cursed items, anything really - that you do not think of as yours can be left behind as well?
2bz2p |
Concerning:
"My rule of thumb is that if you are realistically capable of walking with gear, it goes with you for teleport/polymorph. So if you have shackles on they would go with you, but they would free themselves from, say, a wall. So even though there is benefit to teleporting/polymorphing away, they still have to deal with bindings eventually. That said, druids cannot go around stealing buildings because they tied themselves up to the wall.
EDIT: Forgot to include that it cannot be an animate creature (alive/undead/construct/etc), as that would be silly (grapple someone then polymorph them under your skin)."
I think carrying capacity protects the druid from stealing buildings - you and the gear you carry. If you cannot pick up the building, you cannot teleport or shape change at all - assuming you are going with the IS GEAR side of this one.....
Murdock Mudeater |
What no one could seem to find is if there is any RAW or errata that clarifies what constitutes gear and encumbrance and the effects on being burdened by unwanted restraints on spells. I mean, don't you chain a metal ball around a prisoners ankles to intentionally encumber them? Is there any clarity in raw as to whether changing form and keeping your gear allows escape from restrains? Can you teleport away from being chained to a wall??????
unwanted restraints and creatures riding/grappling you, most certainly affect your carry weight, and do apply for encumberance.
That said, encumbrance doesn't prevent teleportation or polymorphing, unless the spell specifically says so.
As for binding devices, I would go so far as to both count them as gear, and even require they occupy a slot on a character's equipped gear. Hand cuffs, for example, would require the wrist or hand "slot," to be free.
So, no, teleportation wouldn't get you free, you'd just teleport with the restraints. Polymorph would make you temporaily free, but it would be melded with your body. In both cases, if the player attempted to polymorph/teleport, but only their naked self, I would allow that, but in an all or nothing capacity (either all your gear stays behind, or none of it does).
Rope or chain is the exception, since it just goes over existing gear (I'd just add weight for encumberance, but I would allow you to teleport out, or polymorph to something smaller to get free).
Chain in particular, is an interesting one, since each link is only trapped relative to the position of the others, they are not actually attached together. I would allow a player to attempt to teleport with only some of a chain they were attached to, instead of all of it. So chained to a building, for example, I would allow the caster to attempt teleport themselves and only the chain, but not the building. They could also attempt to teleport to a position where the chain attaching the handcuffs together was no longer binding the two handcuffs together.
Anyway, any sort of of serious attempt to bind a teleporter or wild shaping druid would involve a situation that made such an approach questionable. A generic prision is not meant to seriously bind such characters.
Lady-J |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Concerning:
"My rule of thumb is that if you are realistically capable of walking with gear, it goes with you for teleport/polymorph. So if you have shackles on they would go with you, but they would free themselves from, say, a wall. So even though there is benefit to teleporting/polymorphing away, they still have to deal with bindings eventually. That said, druids cannot go around stealing buildings because they tied themselves up to the wall.
EDIT: Forgot to include that it cannot be an animate creature (alive/undead/construct/etc), as that would be silly (grapple someone then polymorph them under your skin)."
I think carrying capacity protects the druid from stealing buildings - you and the gear you carry. If you cannot pick up the building, you cannot teleport or shape change at all - assuming you are going with the IS GEAR side of this one.....
i've made characters capable of picking up buildings grant it that's pretty much all they could do was lift uber heavy things and not really much else but still they could prolly lift and throw a castle
2bz2p |
Murdock:
The teleport spell says:
"You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels."
I see where you are going with link chain, but if you get really really really cheesy - molecules are chained in a similar way.
However - since the spell does identify both gear and objects as part of a load, and restricts the spell from working beyond maximum load, would a teleporter strapped to a big rock be able to teleport?
PS - I am being really devil-advocate like here, I'm arguing the counterpoint without actually having decided where I should stand.
Matthew Downie |
Hehe, if a Druid were chained to a wall in a castle, if the chains were part of her gear, would the wall be part of her gear, too? How about the castle itself?
To take my reasoning the the logical extreme: yes. But since your gear now massively exceeds your weight limit, you can no longer teleport or wild shape. Not sure that's RAI, but it's a nice little reduction in caster/martial disparity.
I think it has to be the case that for something to be part of your gear, it has to be yours.
So if you sign a certificate saying the shackles belong to the prisoner then they go with him when he teleports?
Which of the following things would you count for being 'yours'?
1 Something you borrowed off an ally. ("Here's a wand of Enlarge Person. Please use it on me before we open the door.")
2 Something you stole; the rightful owner is still alive.
3 Something you stole before murdering the rightful owner.
4 Something you stole after murdering the rightful owner.
David knott 242 |
That sentence "You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load" suggests that you are not required to take anything with you when you teleport -- it is only setting a limit on what you can take with you.
But does that ability to leave any objects behind apply to objects that you are otherwise unable to detach from your person? Or how about an unwilling foe who is currently grappling you?
I am actually surprised that this question remains unresolved after all these years.
2bz2p |
I am actually surprised that this question remains unresolved after all these years.
Me too. When you dwell on it, a backpack is a restraint that ties you to the pack. If we agree that you should not be able to teleport away and leave your backpack (or your armor, or your clothes) then why do you get to teleport out of the Mud to Rock situation, or when you are strapped to a heavy beam, or nailed to a tree?
Would love some official word on this! But I guess it remains different with each GM.
2bz2p |
Which of the following things would you count for being 'yours'?
1 Something you borrowed off an ally. ("Here's a wand of Enlarge Person. Please use it on me before we open the door.")
2 Something you stole; the rightful owner is still alive.
3 Something you stole before murdering the rightful owner.
4 Something you stole after murdering the rightful owner.
Could not agree more. One thing I have decided with certainty is the idea that if you carry it - willfully or not - it's your gear!
Murdock Mudeater |
Murdock:
The teleport spell says:
"You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels."I see where you are going with link chain, but if you get really really really cheesy - molecules are chained in a similar way.
However - since the spell does identify both gear and objects as part of a load, and restricts the spell from working beyond maximum load, would a teleporter strapped to a big rock be able to teleport?
PS - I am being really devil-advocate like here, I'm arguing the counterpoint without actually having decided where I should stand.
I was thinking teleportion descriptor, not the spell itself. So, more of a general approach, trumped by specifics (like the specific spell, as above).
You have a point with molecules, but I wouldn't allow that. I think with chain, there is room for arguement, due to the nature of chain links. I would also note that you should be able to rest some of the chain on the ground, and not count as encumbered by it, again, due to the way chain works. Doesn't strike me as cheese. I wouldn't allow players to use teleportation to cut items, but this does seem like an exception worth noting since the chains are not really attached to eachother. In any case, the player would have to think of this and describe their attempt as such, I wouldn't volunteer it as the GM.
As for clothing and gear, I would allow a character to, all or nothing, teleport with/without gear. I think it's beyond the spell to use teleport as a quick way to specific items, but I would allow a caster to teleport in the nude, if they really wanted ditch all their gear in a hurry. Seems reasonable and within the fiction of shows and books that have teleportation.
Likewise, polymorphing into a smaller creature and emerging from a pile of clothes seems very reasonable and adheres to the fiction of shows and books which feature polymorph. I would not allow a creature to gain size in order to burst the binds, but it they want to get smaller, I can see that as reasonable (provided the binding isn't designed to change shape with their bound target). Again, It would be all or nothing.
Cursed items would remain attached, of course, in both cases.
Murdock Mudeater |
Which of the following things would you count for being 'yours'?
1 Something you borrowed off an ally. ("Here's a wand of Enlarge Person. Please use it on me before we open the door.")
2 Something you stole; the rightful owner is still alive.
3 Something you stole before murdering the rightful owner.
4 Something you stole after murdering the rightful owner.
Your gear is about possession, not legal ownership. Items you are holding, wearing, or are concealed within objects you are holding/wearing. That's your gear.
Additionally, creatures could qualify if the spell doesn't distinguish between creatures and weight. So carryable creatures, like familiars, halflings, and small livestock, could potentially qualify as gear. If the caster was your mount, you could qualify as gear for their casting.
Joesi |
How would you guys rule having ones feet solidified in stone?
Would you even allow any escape artist check at all? To me it seems unreasonable to allow it.
There's all sorts of gradations between something like manacles, and feet being encased in stone as well. Very gray stuff, but I bet GMs would make good calls most of the time. If there's some other way to get out, or if they shouldn't get out, there should be very little problem with denying that option.
UnArcaneElection |
I would say that if you are bound, the spell, Wildshape, or other similar ability attempts to change or take the bindings with you. If the bindings are attached to something too big for your ability, the ability only partially works, so if you wildshape into something to try to escape, you now have partially melded bndings, with their chains or cables emerging from your body and still attached to whatever they were attached to on the other end (with potentially very painful consequences); if you Teleport or something like that, then the partial effect starts similarly, and whether or not this actually lets you get away depends upon whether the bindings can be unlinked by extradimensional motion -- with chains, you can unlink these, whereas with cables, ropes, straps, stone encasements, or other truly continuous bindings, you can't, unless your spell is strong enough to break them or specifically has enough finesse to drop them or at least not resize them (so don't try to restrain a high level spellcaster with chains unless you have the area dimension-locked long-term, but sufficiently strong, anti-magic-protected, and auto-resizing ropes or similar things will work; be careful, trying to imprison high-level spellcasters is like trying to imprison superheroes/supervillains).
Garbage-Tier Waifu |
I don't think a character need count any particular gear as their own or even attended if they don't want it to be. Often it is more advantageous to count a piece of gear as both if they're carrying it, but in some instances (like teleport), it makes sense that you would want to leave stuff behind. Teleport allows you to choose to bring equipment and gear, and so if you choose not to, it gets left behind in the void you once existed in, now left empty.
Manacles attached to a wall or floor are not gear, they're part of the environment. The reason why I make that argument is that they should prevent pit spells if they exist and currently restraint a creature, since that disrupts a perfectly flat surface for a spell (and hence why it would be hilarious for a wizard to just bolt all his furniture into the ground to prevent pit spells in his lair). That's two grey areas with one rule.
Rope bindings or shackles need not be brought along with teleports, since they're not willingly part of a creatures gear, or even counted to be attended if the creature bound by them doesn't want them to be. A fireball that the creature dodges could set the ropes on fire even if the bound creature made their save, because the rope needs to make separate save as an unattended object.
The reason I argue this is because it creates far, far more headaches to be restrictive where restrictive rules do not exist and having to come up with a dozen or so edge cases just to enforce that and having to remember them or and remain consistent. My suggestion is fairly straightforward and easy to handle, and doesn't cause a bunch of weird inconsistencies just because someone could 'cheese it'. Which seems silly compared to making even more vague rules to try and cover grey areas...
Scott Wilhelm |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So if you sign a certificate saying the shackles belong to the prisoner then they go with him when he teleports?
Touche!
To take my reasoning to the logical extreme, yes.
I have trouble with the idea that a policeman's handcuffs are part of a prisoner's gear. If anything, the prisoner belongs to the policeman, but I have a problem with the phrasing of that.
I do believe the best way to handle a Druid using Wildshape to escape shackles is to have the Druid attempt to leave the restraints behind: if the Druid changes into a mouse, the shackles just fall away. If the Druid turns into a woolly mammoth, the Druid gets a Burst attempt. I think this should be the case whether the shapeshifter were chained to a wall or in independent shackles. I think ownership is important here.
Something you borrowed off an ally. ("Here's a wand of Enlarge Person. Please use it on me before we open the door.")
I'd say that if something is not on your person, it is not part of your gear for the purposes of the Polymorph. I don't think the RAW really covers this, though. Although Mark Seifter did tell me once that his character used to carry a bundle of Size Large Arrows, which he would drop on the ground, then cast Enlarge Person on himself, then pick up, in order to shoot Large Arrows.
Enlarge Person is an interesting example to bring up. The spell specifies that as soon as an object leaves your hands, it shrinks back to its original size, so your arrows grow with you but shrink back down to normal when you shoot them. That's why Mark did that.
So, if you lend your Wand of Enlarge Person to someone else, it doesn't Enlarge with you when someone uses it because it is technically part of your gear. It has to be part of your gear. I'd say that it has to belong to you and be on your person.
If it is a borrowed item on your person, it is still in your possession, you are in charge of it, you are responsible for it. I'd say for the purposes of Polymorph, a borrowed item is part of your gear.
2 Something you stole; the rightful owner is still alive.
3 Something you stole before murdering the rightful owner.
4 Something you stole after murdering the rightful owner.
Well, if I steal something, then it's mine! That's the whole point of stealing something. Aww, are you crying because I stole something from you? Aww, you want your toy back? Well, come and get it, and catch me if you can! I think this is a case of possession is 9/10 the law.
But yeah, I don't think a definition of "your gear" exists for the purposes of Polymorph.
Matthew Downie |
Well, if I steal something, then it's mine! That's the whole point of stealing something. Aww, are you crying because I stole something from you? Aww, you want your toy back? Well, come and get it, and catch me if you can! I think this is a case of possession is 9/10 the law.
I think that if you steal something and the police catch you and you tell them, "Finders keepers, I stole it so it's mine now, and possession is 9/10 of the law," you're going to find that the legal system disagrees with you.
The rule 'your gear is anything on your person' is simpler, although it gets difficult with, say, a chain that can be shackled to the floor.
The rule 'your gear is anything on your person unless you want to leave it behind' is fairly simple too, though that gets difficult with things like a tanglefoot bag or a cursed item that has stuck to your hand.
Any rule involving ownership seems way harder than either of those.
Cavall |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Scott Wilhelm wrote:Well, if I steal something, then it's mine! That's the whole point of stealing something. Aww, are you crying because I stole something from you? Aww, you want your toy back? Well, come and get it, and catch me if you can! I think this is a case of possession is 9/10 the law.I think that if you steal something and the police catch you and you tell them, "Finders keepers, I stole it so it's mine now, and possession is 9/10 of the law," you're going to find that the legal system disagrees with you.
The rule 'your gear is anything on your person' is simpler, although it gets difficult with, say, a chain that can be shackled to the floor.
The rule 'your gear is anything on your person unless you want to leave it behind' is fairly simple too, though that gets difficult with things like a tanglefoot bag or a cursed item that has stuck to your hand.
Any rule involving ownership seems way harder than either of those.
It's often that pesky 1/10th he has issues with
Irontruth |
How would you guys rule having ones feet solidified in stone?
Would you even allow any escape artist check at all? To me it seems unreasonable to allow it.
There's all sorts of gradations between something like manacles, and feet being encased in stone as well. Very gray stuff, but I bet GMs would make good calls most of the time. If there's some other way to get out, or if they shouldn't get out, there should be very little problem with denying that option.
I would totally allow an escape artist check to get your feet out of stone, it's just the DC would be incredibly high, probably in the 40's or 50's.
The rule 'your gear is anything on your person' is simpler, although it gets difficult with, say, a chain that can be shackled to the floor.
Instead make the criteria "anything carried by you." A chain attached to the floor/wall is not being carried, unless you can pick up and carry the floor/wall. Shackles attached only to your hands are being carried by you and so qualify.
Consider this, if you're just standing in (ie, in contact with) a house, we don't ask whether the house is part of your gear or not. Simply making contact with an object, or being within it's confines does not trigger it to become gear. To be gear it must be directly worn or carried. If it is attached to something that is not worn or carried (like a building), then it is not gear.
Zelgadas Greyward |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My 2 cents:
On the "Your Gear" argument.
Your gear is whatever you, the caster, wish it to be.
If you steal something, then you have claimed it as "yours" - and thus it is your gear.
As for teleport, let me quote from the spell.
You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load.
You can. You don't HAVE to. You can teleport naked if you want to.
So RAW does have an answer, at least for the teleport one - the word "can" is RAW that you choose what teleports with you and what does not.
As far as "abuse" by teleporting out of prison, shape-changing out of bonds, using teleport to drop bombs, etc - that isn't abuse - that's tactical use of spells. That's the sort of creative thinking in players that a GM should be pleased by, not pissed off by.
Matthew Downie |
A chain attached to the floor/wall is not being carried, unless you can pick up and carry the floor/wall. Shackles attached only to your hands are being carried by you and so qualify.
Let's say I'm wearing a pair of handcuffs with a long chain between them. I'm carrying those, so they'd stay on me when I teleport. Then someone attaches them to a ring on the floor with a padlock. Now they stay behind when I teleport because I'm not carrying them? Or do they teleport out of the padlock?
What about if I just rest my shackles on the floor? Now they're not weighing me down, so I can leave them behind?
Matthew Downie |
As far as "abuse" by teleporting out of prison, shape-changing out of bonds, using teleport to drop bombs, etc - that isn't abuse - that's tactical use of spells. That's the sort of creative thinking in players that a GM should be pleased by, not pissed off by.
Depends on the level of caster/martial disparity and power creep you're willing to put up with. Pathfinder tends to already be the sort of game where casters can effortlessly teleport their way around any problem. If you start allowing magic to do new things ("I teleport away, leaving behind the poison I swallowed") it makes it a lot harder to come up with a challenge for the players.
It can also make it harder for non-casters to make use of creative thinking:
Player: "I handcuff myself to the necromancer. Now he won't be able to teleport back to his secret lair without taking me with him."
GM: "Won't work. Nothing mundane can interfere with teleportation."
2bz2p |
I don't think a character need count any particular gear as their own or even attended if they don't want it to be. Often it is more advantageous to count a piece of gear as both if they're carrying it, but in some instances (like teleport), it makes sense that you would want to leave stuff behind. Teleport allows you to choose to bring equipment and gear, and so if you choose not to, it gets left behind in the void you once existed in, now left empty.
Manacles attached to a wall or floor are not gear, they're part of the environment. The reason why I make that argument is that they should prevent pit spells if they exist and currently restraint a creature, since that disrupts a perfectly flat surface for a spell (and hence why it would be hilarious for a wizard to just bolt all his furniture into the ground to prevent pit spells in his lair). That's two grey areas with one rule.
Rope bindings or shackles need not be brought along with teleports, since they're not willingly part of a creatures gear, or even counted to be attended if the creature bound by them doesn't want them to be. A fireball that the creature dodges could set the ropes on fire even if the bound creature made their save, because the rope needs to make separate save as an unattended object.
The reason I argue this is because it creates far, far more headaches to be restrictive where restrictive rules do not exist and having to come up with a dozen or so edge cases just to enforce that and having to remember them or and remain consistent. My suggestion is fairly straightforward and easy to handle, and doesn't cause a bunch of weird inconsistencies just because someone could 'cheese it'. Which seems silly compared to making even more vague rules to try and cover grey areas...
So that would mean you agree with the idea that you can be rid of a cursed item, worn or not, by teleporting away from it or ploymorphing, and electing to consider it not your gear. Similarly, you could leave behind (for example) those vials of acid in your backpack but not the pack or anything else in it by deciding they are no longer your gear, they fall to ground and shatter and splash acid on your foes. And should you be subject to some form of memory loss, or simply are tired and forget about something you have, those "unthought of" objects do not teleort with you because you did not think of them as your gear at the time you teleported. That's a lot of thinking.....
I do not like the concept of who thinks of gear as their own overruling actual possession. If you play that out, if you have stolen something from me and start to teleport away, if I think of it as my gear more than you do - then it should stay behind when you leave because thought trumps physical ownership. I think a "you carry it, it is your gear" is far simpler than what you think is your gear is your gear.
2bz2p |
As for teleport, let me quote from the spell.
Quote:You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load.You can. You don't HAVE to. You can teleport naked if you want to.
So RAW does have an answer, at least for the teleport one - the word "can" is RAW that you choose what teleports with you and what does not.
.
I can see this - like shape changing/polymorphing - as a yes or no choice. Yes you can teleport naked OR you can take along objects up to your maximum load. I don't think there is any clarity of selectivity of items, however. Its all or nothing.
Still would like a formal definition of gear for these spells, but for now I am going with "you carry it, it is your gear" combined with "You can leave it all behind or have to be able to take it all with you" regarding restraints......
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:A chain attached to the floor/wall is not being carried, unless you can pick up and carry the floor/wall. Shackles attached only to your hands are being carried by you and so qualify.Let's say I'm wearing a pair of handcuffs with a long chain between them. I'm carrying those, so they'd stay on me when I teleport. Then someone attaches them to a ring on the floor with a padlock. Now they stay behind when I teleport because I'm not carrying them? Or do they teleport out of the padlock?
What about if I just rest my shackles on the floor? Now they're not weighing me down, so I can leave them behind?
Do you not understand my criteria? Or do you disagree with it?
2bz2p |
Asked an identical question a few years back. The thread is here if your interested.
Thanks for that - but they didn't get anywhere either. For all the "selective gear" teleportation supporters, I hope you GM's litter your fighter's worlds with teleporting services and devices that leave their gear behind because it is caster's choice. And also snatch up the character sheets from players as they teleport and ask them what gear they are "thinking" of taking with them - they don't name it, it is left behind.
I'm sticking with all or nothing!
Pizza Lord |
It is always been my view that the while gear or equipment will likely always be an 'object' (the word used in the spell itself) not all objects are gear.
I believe by using the term object the intention (and how it's always been viewed from previous editions which the spell comes from) is for the purposes of teleporting objects that specifically aren't gear. The statement about objects would be for bringing things that you can't necessarily carry, like a bed, a chest of coins, a bookcase, a table, etc. This could include items that take two or more people to carry. Sure, with strength scores and carry weights a person can seem to be easily able to heft a couch or a king-size mattress, but realistically, trying to move one by oneself is not realistic. Teleport can transport those objects (if within your maximum weight limit.)
The spells were written with a common-sense, conversational approach, it has never been, implied, or intended that this spell wouldn't bring along the caster's clothes or gear. That was always the assumption. The line was for trying to bring other, heavier objects along with the caster which they maybe couldn't manipulate or carry easily.
Pizza Lord |
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Does the Wizard get to decide to leave other people's gear behind? And can they do it selectively as well?
In Forgotten Realms, Elminster had such a custom spell guarding his back door. If you touched a certain stone without speaking a word known to his invited guests (which would put you in his sitting room) it instead teleported you to a more dangerous section and removed all your magical gear.
I have no problem with spells like that, but without that ability being expressly stated that gear and clothing and possessions can be stripped from your targets, I would hesitate to permit it at all. Which is one of the reasons I am sure the word 'objects' is not the same as the terms 'gear' and 'equipment'.
UnArcaneElection |
So that would mean you agree with the idea that you can be rid of a cursed item, worn or not, by teleporting away from it or ploymorphing, and electing to consider it not your gear.
{. . .}
Depends upon whether it's one of those cursed items that will compel you to take it with you, or one of those that manages its own sneaky Teleport to wind up in your possessions even if you initially seemed to be successful in leaving it behind.
Matthew Downie |
Matthew Downie wrote:Do you not understand my criteria? Or do you disagree with it?Irontruth wrote:A chain attached to the floor/wall is not being carried, unless you can pick up and carry the floor/wall. Shackles attached only to your hands are being carried by you and so qualify.Let's say I'm wearing a pair of handcuffs with a long chain between them. I'm carrying those, so they'd stay on me when I teleport. Then someone attaches them to a ring on the floor with a padlock. Now they stay behind when I teleport because I'm not carrying them? Or do they teleport out of the padlock?
What about if I just rest my shackles on the floor? Now they're not weighing me down, so I can leave them behind?
I don't think I understand them. I am in prison, wearing chains that I want to get rid of. If I magically weld them to the floor, can I teleport away from them? And if so, what level of attachment is required? Would tying them to the bars of my prison cell with string count?
2bz2p |
It is always been my view that the while gear or equipment will likely always be an 'object' (the word used in the spell itself) not all objects are gear.
I believe by using the term object the intention (and how it's always been viewed from previous editions which the spell comes from) is for the purposes of teleporting objects that specifically aren't gear. The statement about objects would be for bringing things that you can't necessarily carry, like a bed, a chest of coins, a bookcase, a table, etc. This could include items that take two or more people to carry. Sure, with strength scores and carry weights a person can seem to be easily able to heft a couch or a king-size mattress, but realistically, trying to move one by oneself is not realistic. Teleport can transport those objects (if within your maximum weight limit.)
The spells were written with a common-sense, conversational approach, it has never been, implied, or intended that this spell wouldn't bring along the caster's clothes or gear. That was always the assumption. The line was for trying to bring other, heavier objects along with the caster which they maybe couldn't manipulate or carry easily.
That's really solid. I wish the spell said "aside from gear, you MAY also teleport an object...."
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:I don't think I understand them. I am in prison, wearing chains that I want to get rid of. If I magically weld them to the floor, can I teleport away from them? And if so, what level of attachment is required? Would tying them to the bars of my prison cell with string count?Matthew Downie wrote:Do you not understand my criteria? Or do you disagree with it?Irontruth wrote:A chain attached to the floor/wall is not being carried, unless you can pick up and carry the floor/wall. Shackles attached only to your hands are being carried by you and so qualify.Let's say I'm wearing a pair of handcuffs with a long chain between them. I'm carrying those, so they'd stay on me when I teleport. Then someone attaches them to a ring on the floor with a padlock. Now they stay behind when I teleport because I'm not carrying them? Or do they teleport out of the padlock?
What about if I just rest my shackles on the floor? Now they're not weighing me down, so I can leave them behind?
Let's remove the concept of manacles for a moment, because I think it needlessly complicates it. If we go with a simpler scenario, we can come to a quicker understanding.
A wizard is standing inside his tower. He has bare feet, but is otherwise clothed. He has a pouch, inside that pouch a glass vial. In that glass vial a liquid (several degrees of contact, wizard->clothing->pouch->vial->liquid).
What comes with the wizard? Why does that thing come with the wizard? For purposes of our conversation, lets assume that the wizard says "i take everything with me."
I think we generally agree that the wizards clothes, pouch, vial and liquid all come with him. Why doesn't the stone he's standing on go to? Why not the whole tower?
My criteria excludes the stone and the tower. Because they aren't part of his carried gear. He's in contact with them, but because they are too heavy, are not included. If you have a better method of determination, I'm willing to hear it. The teleport spell does not sever objects at their weight limit, ie. if you're holding a rock too big, it doesn't split the rock into a smaller chunk to the correct size/weight to fit the definition of gear. Either you take the whole rock, or you don't.
Instead of trying to break the game down by molecule, I would go with simple definitions of "whole object". The manacles chained to part of the room become part of that room. They're a fixture in there, until something happens to make them no longer a fixture. Teleport doesn't change that standing, it only asks what that standing is. Therefore manacles that are part of the room (ie, attached the floor or wall) do not go with you when you teleport.
2bz2p |
A wizard is standing inside his tower. He has bare feet, but is otherwise clothed. He has a pouch, inside that pouch a glass vial. In that glass vial a liquid (several degrees of contact, wizard->clothing->pouch->vial->liquid).What comes with the wizard? Why does that thing come with the wizard? For purposes of our conversation, lets assume that the wizard says "i take everything with me."
I think we generally agree that the wizards clothes, pouch, vial and liquid all come with him. Why doesn't the stone he's standing on go to? Why not the whole tower?
My criteria excludes the stone and the tower. Because they aren't part of his carried gear. He's in contact with them, but because they are too heavy, are not included. If you have a better method of...
I would say that a strap, cord, belt and similar items are in effect restraints - but voluntary ones. Thus a backpack is restrained to you by the loops of leather or cords. In your example, the belt restrains clothing to the MU, the cord restrains the pouch to the belt, the cloth restrains the vial in the pouch, the vial restrains the liquid, all are YOUR GEAR. You can teleport or change shape with or without your gear. Your feet are NOT restrained to the floor. It is when they are (rock to mud, mud to rock) that you run a risk of these spell not working if it is not within your maximum load -- unless you choose the no gear option, when all are left behind.
PossibleCabbage |
Can I use my restraints as an expensive material component for a psychic spell, claiming that they have a personal connection to me because of how traumatized I am for being locked in these manacles?
Euphoric Cloud is a good one for this, since the expensive material component is only 5gp, and you can use any item that is of equal of greater value.
This seems absurdly abusive, but I'm not sure how to stop it beyond "No, your manacles don't count as an item of personal value."