What Player Options Changed in the Adventurer's Guide? A Compilation Thread


Advice

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Silver Crusade Contributor

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It does vary wildly by section. The Hellknights are one of the most reprinted groups - only their archetypes are new. Meanwhile, the Council of Thieves is 100% new, and the Gray Maidens only have one very minor item reprinted.


Maybe it feels like more to me because I'm going through this book by myself, trying to comb it for reprints and changes to those reprints, so it feels way more dense than if I were just reading it regularly. That Pathfinder Society section took me like two hours.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Torbyne wrote:
I am actually bothered by the idea that it is a hard cover release at a hard cover price that has a softback's worth of new information in it. One part of me knows this is not the case but another, saltier part, cant help but think of this as pay per view errata. At least split the new information into its own product for those who might already own the old stuff and dont want to pay for the corrections on it. :(

I've never seen a softcover with 27 new archetypes.

That said, let me finish running the numbers, and see if I can't provide some reassurance. ^_^


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Kalindlara wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I am actually bothered by the idea that it is a hard cover release at a hard cover price that has a softback's worth of new information in it. One part of me knows this is not the case but another, saltier part, cant help but think of this as pay per view errata. At least split the new information into its own product for those who might already own the old stuff and dont want to pay for the corrections on it. :(

I've never seen a softcover with 27 new archetypes.

That said, let me finish running the numbers, and see if I can't provide some reassurance. ^_^

I am sure that there is a lot of new information in the book. But seeing all the reprints and errata laid out in this thread is shocking considering i was expecting it to be majority new information, a hard back is not the place to issue such sweeping changes unless you are advertising the book to do that, Unchained Volume 2 or something. Nothing in the product description lead me to believe it would do this. Someday i will see it in the store and flip through it but the effect of the thread has really diminished my interest in the product.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Torbyne wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I am actually bothered by the idea that it is a hard cover release at a hard cover price that has a softback's worth of new information in it. One part of me knows this is not the case but another, saltier part, cant help but think of this as pay per view errata. At least split the new information into its own product for those who might already own the old stuff and dont want to pay for the corrections on it. :(

I've never seen a softcover with 27 new archetypes.

That said, let me finish running the numbers, and see if I can't provide some reassurance. ^_^

I am sure that there is a lot of new information in the book. But seeing all the reprints and errata laid out in this thread is shocking considering i was expecting it to be majority new information, a hard back is not the place to issue such sweeping changes unless you are advertising the book to do that, Unchained Volume 2 or something. Nothing in the product description lead me to believe it would do this. Someday i will see it in the store and flip through it but the effect of the thread has really diminished my interest in the product.

I'm surprised that you assumed a compilation of major organizations on Golarion wouldn't reprint material scattered among three other product lines into a nice, single volume. Especially the few rules items that could really use the update.


Speaking of which, more stuff.

Red Mantis

Red Mantis Assassin (Prestige class, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Sneak Attack: Now specifies at what levels you get the increased damage
- Sabre Fighting: Now grants the ability to use sawtooth sabres as light weapons for all purposes, and specifies that you don't need to qualify for the additional feats through having fighter levels
- Prayer Attack: Now specifies that attempting the coup de grace attack does not break the fascination effect
- Fading: Now activated as an immediate action, not free
- Mantis Doom: Now specifies that the caster level is equal to the assassin's character level

Mantis Zealot (Warpriest archetype, Advanced Class Origins)

- Mantis Sworn: Now requires the warpriest to be Lawful Evil

Sawtooth sabre (Weapon, Ultimate Equipment)

- No changes

Crimson Bluff (Unique magic weapon, Inner Sea Combat)

- Transmutation removed from aura, now just moderate illusion
- Secondary ability is now an immediate action to activate instead of swift

Eye of the Mantis (Magic item, Faction Guide)

- All references to "prying eye" updated to the correct prying eyes spell
- Statue now reverts back to statue form if destroyed while animate

Mantis Blade (Minor artifact, Artifacts and Legends)

- No changes

Mantis Embrace (Magic item, Agents of Evil)

- No changes

Mask of the Mantis (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Red Stalker Armor (Unique magic armor, Inner Sea Gods)

- No changes

Mark of Blood (Spell, Faction Guide)

- Now available to bloodrager 2, inquisitor 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
- School changed from necromancy to transmutation [curse]
- "One living creature" removed from targets and added to descriptive text
- Now specifies that the curse effect is negated on a successful Will save, and that it is permanent on a failed save until dispelled or removed by spells like remove curse


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I am actually bothered by the idea that it is a hard cover release at a hard cover price that has a softback's worth of new information in it. One part of me knows this is not the case but another, saltier part, cant help but think of this as pay per view errata. At least split the new information into its own product for those who might already own the old stuff and dont want to pay for the corrections on it. :(

I've never seen a softcover with 27 new archetypes.

That said, let me finish running the numbers, and see if I can't provide some reassurance. ^_^

I am sure that there is a lot of new information in the book. But seeing all the reprints and errata laid out in this thread is shocking considering i was expecting it to be majority new information, a hard back is not the place to issue such sweeping changes unless you are advertising the book to do that, Unchained Volume 2 or something. Nothing in the product description lead me to believe it would do this. Someday i will see it in the store and flip through it but the effect of the thread has really diminished my interest in the product.
I'm surprised that you assumed a compilation of major organizations on Golarion wouldn't reprint material scattered among three other product lines into a nice, single volume. Especially the few rules items that could really use the update.

Yes, well.. i made an assumption and i know what that makes out of me. :p But honestly, new book = new content, is that really such a bad assumption? If they had called it "adventurer's compilation" and had a description to state it was consolidating and updating scattered information on X, Y and Z it wouldnt have been such a shock.


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Kalindlara wrote:

You mean half a page on spices? :P

I haven't run the numbers yet, but just looking at archetypes alone, there's 11 reprints out of 38 total. Hardly 70-80%.

yes, there's not 5 pages, but a half page, and I think they're cool new stuff.

But as an example, I doubt someone would be interested in 5 pages of spices, Spices could be considered all the other mundane items that many people don't care about.


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No reprints from the Rivethun section, unless you count the Anderos salve and the mulibrous tincture being reprinted from the dev blog that Crystal Frasier posted them in. :P

No reprints in the Silver Ravens section, either. One more section and I'm free!


And with this, the book is done!

Storm Kindlers

Storm Kindler (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- No changes

Tempest Druid (Druid archetype, Inner Sea Magic)

- Now requires the druid to be Chaotic Neutral to take this archetype
- Bend Bolt: Now usable Wisdom modifier times per day instead of Charisma

Storm-Lashed (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No change

Goz mask (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Water breathing duration changed to 60 minutes from 1 hour, for clarity's sake

Silver Crusade

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Thankies for your hard work Dark Midian ^w^

Dark Archive

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Torbyne wrote:
I am actually bothered by the idea that it is a hard cover release at a hard cover price that has a softback's worth of new information in it. One part of me knows this is not the case but another, saltier part, cant help but think of this as pay per view errata. At least split the new information into its own product for those who might already own the old stuff and dont want to pay for the corrections on it. :(

Making entirely new splat books for all this disparate material that isn't otherwise connected at all, then including new rules options to fluff around it that is, etc etc etc is far more expensive, long term, than a single $40 hardback. Assuming each one of these "sections" was a Pathfinder Player Companion running about $15 each, we'd have 18 installments for over $270 retail. And I doubt we'd see much more in terms of actual player options beyond what's here versus just more story/fluff/NPCs.

While I absolutely agree this is not the raw page count or new player options percentage we normally see from the $45 hardback releases (which usually are 250-300 pages), I find it far better than the idea of waiting for 18 installments and paying $230 more to get all of these updates AND the new content.

The PDF (as Paizo always does with hardbacks) is also $9.99, which is a steal compared to the $40 retail for the physical book.

EDIT: Used the wrong price for Player Companions, was $10 and should have been $15.


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I'm actually kind of sad that Enlightened Bloodragers don't start with Cantrips at level 1. I always thought that was one of the coolest parts of the archetype.


Ventnor wrote:
I'm actually kind of sad that Enlightened Bloodragers don't start with Cantrips at level 1. I always thought that was one of the coolest parts of the archetype.

I'm guessing they thought earlier and more spells made the bloodrager too powerful.


So really most of the changes were actually in a positive light. A lot of upgrades, and the biggest complaint (lore warden) honestly comes out better mostly over full levels rather than a dip.

Not too bad.


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I'm kinda bummed by the Tribal Scars change. +6 HP and the other stuff was probably too good at low levels, but I at least took it on a Kellid barbarian from one of the Mammoth Lord tribes. I've seen this feat on Nagaji ninjas and PFS characters who's explanation was basically "they walked through the Mammoth Lords' territory once."

I do think I'll keep the feat once Additional Resources comes out, and I get it's a problem with the Organised Play stuff. In a home game the GM can limit it to characters with appropriate backstories, but there isn't an option for that in PFS.

Guess I'll just get Toughness at level 3 to go along with it.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dark Midian wrote:
One more section and I'm free!

Oh? With the success of this thread, I was thinking of starting a comparison thread for ALL of Pathfinder's reprinted material.

More coffee?


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Oh come on, practically did it all solo!

Great work dark midian

Sovereign Court

Could I get a full quote of the list of animal companions the new mammoth rider gets? I'm a little weirded out by the list, almost sounds like a few bestiaries in the middle got left out.


Steed (Ex): A mammoth rider can choose from among the following animal companions to serve as her loyal steed: amargasaurusB6, arsinoitheriumB2, aurochs, baluchitheriumB3, brontotheriumB6, camelB2, cat (big), deinotheriumB6, dire polar bearB5, elasmotheriumB6, elkB3, horse, kentrosaurusB6, mastodon, megalocerosB2, moaB5, rhinoceros, styracosaurusB4, triceratops, uintatheriumB5, wolf, woolly mammoth (use the statistics for a mastodon), or woolly rhinoceros. A GM might expand this list to include other possible steeds. This steed functions as a druid’s animal companion, replacing any animal companion or mount gained from another class.


Yeah, the list probably looked weird because I only added the new stuff.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Steed (Ex): A mammoth rider can choose from among the following animal companions to serve as her loyal steed: amargasaurusB6, arsinoitheriumB2, aurochs, baluchitheriumB3, brontotheriumB6, camelB2, cat (big), deinotheriumB6, dire polar bearB5, elasmotheriumB6, elkB3, horse, kentrosaurusB6, mastodon, megalocerosB2, moaB5, rhinoceros, styracosaurusB4, triceratops, uintatheriumB5, wolf, woolly mammoth (use the statistics for a mastodon), or woolly rhinoceros. A GM might expand this list to include other possible steeds. This steed functions as a druid’s animal companion, replacing any animal companion or mount gained from another class.

Umm.. how, how does one ride a Kentrosauros? Other than very carefully.

Liberty's Edge

Torbyne wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Steed (Ex): A mammoth rider can choose from among the following animal companions to serve as her loyal steed: amargasaurusB6, arsinoitheriumB2, aurochs, baluchitheriumB3, brontotheriumB6, camelB2, cat (big), deinotheriumB6, dire polar bearB5, elasmotheriumB6, elkB3, horse, kentrosaurusB6, mastodon, megalocerosB2, moaB5, rhinoceros, styracosaurusB4, triceratops, uintatheriumB5, wolf, woolly mammoth (use the statistics for a mastodon), or woolly rhinoceros. A GM might expand this list to include other possible steeds. This steed functions as a druid’s animal companion, replacing any animal companion or mount gained from another class.
Umm.. how, how does one ride a Kentrosauros? Other than very carefully.

You use the spikes as handles and tie yourself to them :p


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Side saddle, of course. :-)


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captain yesterday wrote:
Side saddle, of course. :-)

Oh Snap! How could i forget about Dino Riders!? Side carriage on the right, Ballista mount on the Left, here we go! umm, chin mounted pepper boxes?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cavall wrote:

So really most of the changes were actually in a positive light. A lot of upgrades, and the biggest complaint (lore warden) honestly comes out better mostly over full levels rather than a dip.

Not too bad.

In regard to the Lore Warden, does anyone recall Alex Augunas's Fighter Unchained PDFs? He seriously upgraded the Fighter and most of its archetypes in those works.

The Lore Warden is one of the few archetypes that he felt the need to downgrade a bit.


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So, now that I've finished with the book, I've collected all of my posts into one gigantic super-post, which allowed me to correct any errors and add Archives of Nethys links to all of the original versions of the reprinted items for quick comparison. This will hopefully be my last and final say on this book.

Pathfinder Adventurer's Guide Reprints

Al-Zabriti:
Qadiran Horselord (Cavalier archetype, Inner Sea Combat)

- As One: Now increases to 3d6 damage at 17th level and no longer treats all mounted Spring Attack uses as a charge

Mounted Blade (Feat, Qadira, Gateway to the East)

- BAB requirement removed
- Qadiran affinity replaced with Al-Zabriti affiliation
- Wording about being able to use this feat on a magic flying item such as a broom of flying removed
- Extra attack gains no benefits from a charge

Mounted Onslaught (Feat, Cities of Golarion)

- Lastwall affinity replaced with Al-Zabriti affiliation

Aldori Swordlords:
Aldori Swordlord (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat; if already possessed, gain Aldori Dueling Mastery as a bonus feat; if already possessed, gain a free combat feat you qualify for
- Deft Strike: Wording about no 1.5x Dexterity damage for two-handing has been removed
- Defensive Parry: Now a dodge bonus to AC instead of untyped, and only increases once at 7th level; also now only stacks with the Aldori defender fighter archetype instead of the Aldori swordlord fighter archetype
- Shatter Confidence: Now has more clarification that it does not end effects that do not have morale bonuses, such as rage powers, unless the barbarian chooses to end his rage while his bonuses are suppressed
- Dexterous Duelist: No longer requires you to hit someone while prone to be able to not provoke attacks of opportunity to stand up next to them

Aldori Defender (Fighter archetype, originally "Aldori swordlord", Inner Sea Primer)

- Defensive Parry: Now a shield bonus to AC, and stops increasing after +4 at 15th following armor training progression; replaces all armor training
- Disarming Strike: Now gives up the 6th level fighter bonus feat rather than weapon training 1, and is gained at 6th instead of 5th level
- Steel Net: Now gives up the 8th level fighter bonus feat rather than armor training 2, and is gained at 8th instead of 7th level
- Counterattack: Can now only be used once a round regardless of the Aldori defender's number of attacks of opportunity; replaces the fighter's 10th level fighter bonus feat rather than armor training 3, and is gained at 10th instead of 11th

Aldori Dueling Disciple (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Aldori Dueling Mastery (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Further clarifies that you cannot use anything in your offhand, such as natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and armor spikes
- Adds swashbuckler to the list of classes affected by this feat's ability to treat Aldori dueling swords as piercing weapons for prerequisites

Duelist of the Roaring Falls (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- Clarifies that you don't get 1.5x Dexterity damage for two-handing

Duelist of the Shrouded Lake (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Falling Water Gambit (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Aldori dueling sword (Weapon, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Rostland Edge (Unique magic weapon, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Aspis Consortium:
Aspis Agent (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Agency Secrets: Bonus Feat can be take twice instead of once
- Agency Secrets: Master Caster now extends to mesmerists
- Agency Secrets: Rogue Talent can now be taken twice if the character has at least 1 level in a class that grants rogue talents
- Agency Secrets: Vigilante Talent lets you select up to two vigilante talents if you have at least 1 vigilante level

Aspis Partner (Feat, Agents of Evil)

- Associate (Aspis Consortium) prerequisite removed, replaced with Aspis Consortium affiliation

Ioun Spite Bracers (Wondrous item, Agents of Evil)

- No changes

Bellflower Network:
Bellflower Tiller (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Special prerequisites now allow for any 2 vigilante talents to replace the sneak attack +2d6 requirement
- Crop Guardian: Now stacks with levels of the Bellflower Harvester vigilante archetype for the purposes of their Crop Vigilance ability
- Scarecrow: Now a bonus to attack and damage against all creatures that threaten your crop, instead of bonuses to attack and damage on attacks of opportunity against creatures threatening your crop

Applecheek (Alchemical item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #106)

- No changes

Boniface paint (Alchemical item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #106)

- No changes

Cooking powder (Alchemical item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #106)

- No changes

Sparkle smoke (Alchemical item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #106)

- Effect changed to requiring dim light or lower for the Perception penalty to function

Tiller's gum (Alchemical item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #106)

- Now costs 100gp, up from 50gp
- Restricted to 3rd level spells or lower, no restriction previously
- Now requires a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or less and that targets one or more creatures, instead of just a touch spell
- Is now completely ruined after the 1 hour timer

Council of Thieves:
No reprints.

Cyphermages:
Cyphermage (Prestige class, Inner Sea Magic)

- Language requirements relaxed to include languages related to Varisia and Thassilon, such as Shoanti, Aklo, Draconic, and Giant
- Cypher Lore now specifically states that you do not gain a new cypher lore at 10th level
- Two new cypher lore abilities, Thassilonian Focus and Thassilonian Incantation
- Thassilonian Focus: Choose a Thassilonian school of magic (If cyphermage is a Thassilonian specialist, must choose same specialty school), gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities of that school
-Thassilonian Incantation: +1 to save DCs when speaking Thassilonian for language-dependent spells, but target must understand Thassilonian for the bonus to function; combines with rune trap cypher lore to grant +1 caster level to spells with magic writing, but doubles casting time

Cypher Magic (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Cypher Script (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Hidden Knowledge (Spell, Second Darkness Player's Guide)

- Now available to bard 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
- Now has a duration set at casting, up to 1 day/level
- Check to identify runic tattoo is now DC 20 Linguistics check, instead of DC 15 Decipher Script

Thassilonian Magic (Special (Wizard archetype), Inner Sea Magic)

- No changes

Eagle Knights:
Golden Legionnaire (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- No changes

Steel Falcon (Prestige class, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- BAB requirement removed
- 5 additional levels added
- Enemy of Slavers: Now increases to +6 at 9th level
- Luck of the Eagle: Now gains an additional use at 6th and 10th, for a total of three uses per day
- Heroic Speech: Obtained at 3rd level, instead of 2nd
- Natural Traps: Now grants the Learn Ranger Trap feat for free, allowing you to select from a special list of learnable traps, otherwise follows the rules for that feat; at 6th and 9th you get one additional trap learned
- Comrade's Bond: Gains an additional use at 7th and 10th; usable as a swift action at 7th, and a free action at 10th
- Superior Aid: Obtained at 4th level, instead of 2nd
- Subtle Manipulator: Obtained at 5th level, instead of 3rd; additional clarification that usage resets the one per person per day duration
- Talmandor's Blessing: Additional clarification that the feather fall effect can be reactivated if dispelled
- Chainbreaker: Obtained at 6th level, instead of 4th; the bonus to escaping binds and ropes now only applies to Escape Artist instead of all checks
- Talmandor's Fury: Obtained at 7th level, instead of 5th; clarified to be activated as a standard action

Eagle's Resolve (Feat, Andoran, Birthplace of Freedom)

- "Member of Eagle Knights" prerequisite removed, replaced with Eagle Knight affiliation
- The bonus to attack, damage, and saving throws is now only against the source of the initial effect

Expert Boarder (Feat, Andoran, Birthplace of Freedom)

- "Member of Gray Corsairs" prerequisite removed, replaced with Gray Corsair affiliation

Falcon's Cry (Feat, Andoran, Birthplace of Freedom)

- "Member of Steel Falcons" prerequisite removed, replaced with Steel Falcon affiliation

Legionnaire's Inspiration (Feat, Andoran, Birthplace of Freedom)

- "Member of Golden Legion" prerequisite removed, replaced with Golden Legion affiliation
- Possible typo, the first line says "As a standard action, pick one creature you can see", and after that the text is the same as the original feat. Most likely the feat was intended to be changed to only work on one creature, and wasn't proofread before print

Twilight Tattoo (Feat, Andoran, Birthplace of Freedom)

- "Member of Twilight Talons" prerequisite removed, replaced with Twilight Talon affiliation

Eagle Knight's Dress Armor (Unique magic armor, Inner Sea Combat)

- Now costs 18,175 gp to purchase, up from 10,800 gp
- Now costs 9,175 gp to craft, up from 5,488 gp

Golden Eagle Epaulets (Magic item, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- Now costs 4,500 gp to purchase, up from 3,000 gp
- Now costs 2,250 gp to craft, up from 1,500 gp
- Can now cast sanctuary and bless each once per day
- Additional skill that receives the +2 competence bonus is now static based on what faction of Eagle Knights the item is attuned to (Steel Falcons: Perception, Golden Legion: Ride, Gray Corsairs: Swim, Twilight Talons: Swim)
- Wording about the item automatically casting sanctuary when the wearer falls below 0 HP has been removed

Talonstrike sword (Unique magic weapon, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- Now costs 33,835 gp to purchase, down from 38,715 gp
- Now costs 18,435 gp to craft, down from 19,615 gp
- No longer requires shield other as a construction requirement
- Is now made from mithral instead of alchemical silver, weight is reduced from 6 lbs. to 3 lbs. as a result
- The dimensional anchor effect on a critical hit now only functions once per day

Detect Charm (Spell, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- Is now available to bard 1, cleric 1, inquisitor 1, medium 1, mesmerist 1, occultist 1, paladin 1, psychic 1, shaman 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, spiritualist 1, witch 1
- Further clarifies that although it functions as detect magic, you can only see charm, compulsion, and possession effects

Summon Flight of Eagles (Spell, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- Is now available to bloodrager 4, druid 6, ranger 4, shaman 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, summoner 6, witch 6
- Duration increased to 10 minutes/level, up from 1 minute/level
- Summoned eagles now fight as a normal summoned creature, in addition to serving as mounts

Suppress Charms and Compulsions (Spell, Andoran, Spirit of Liberty)

- Is now available to bard 2, cleric 2, mesmerist 2, paladin 2, psychic 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
- Duration changed to 10 minutes or concentration (Up to 1 round/level)
- No longer functions as remove fear
- You can now only choose to grant a bonus to saving throws against charms and compulsions or to suppress them, not both
- Suppressing charms and compulsions is now concentration-based and suppresses all charm and compulsion effects, both beneficial and harmful
- Suppressed creatures affected by new charms and compulsions have those effects suppressed as well, up to the duration of this spell
- Spell immediately ends if concentration ceases, charms and compulsions resume their remaining duration

Gray Maidens:
Maiden's Helm (Magic item, Pathfinder Adventure Path #62)

- No changes

Hellknights:
Hellknight (Prestige class, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Hellknight Armor: Wording changed from "moves at full speed" to "does not reduce your speed" to avoid confusion and potential rules cheese

Hellknight Signifer (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Catechesis: Now treats Hellknight levels as cleric levels for the purposes of healing and damage dealt with channel energy, as well as channel energy DCs
- Assiduous Gaze: Scrutiny power now allows for detection of psychic spellcasting

Gelugon Plate (Unique magic armor, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Signifer's Fist (Unique magic weapon, Advanced Class Origins)

- Now requires a move action to activate, rather than a standard action
- Special effect is now usable once per day as a standard action if the user does not have an arcane pool, arcane reservoir, or fervor pool

Dirge of the Victorious Knights (Spell, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Casting time changed to 1 round, from 1 full round
- Knights now appear in an adjacent 10' square, rather than in your square

Houses of Perfection:
Winding Path Renegade (Brawler archetype, Advanced Class Origins)

- No changes

Perfect Style (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- Wording changed to reflect that the feat starts you with 2 ki points immediately, rather than saying "You start at 1 ki point and gain another at every 4 levels thereafter".

Unblinking Flame Feint (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Unblinking Flame Fist (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Unfolding Wind Strike (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Unfolding Wind Rush (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- Dodge now formally added as a prerequisite

Untwisting Iron Strength (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Untwisting Iron Skin (Feat, Inner Sea Combat)

- No changes

Monastic Warden (Unique magic weapon, Inner Sea Combat)

- Wording of initial ability to spend ki points to ignore shield bonuses is changed to include other classes that gain a ki pool
- Secondary ability now clarified as force damage; the additional damage condition now requires a site sacred to the weapon's wielder, rather than a place the weapon is attuned to

Lantern Bearers:
Lantern Bearer (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Elf or half-elf race prerequisite removed
- "Numinous Potency" renamed to "Luminous Potency"
- Unbounded Stride: Wording requiring this ability to be activated before it takes effect removed
- Fade from Sight: Clarified to be activated as a swift action, along with the action required to use Stealth to hide

Magaambya:
Magaambyan Arcanist (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Altruistic Guardian: Further clarifies that allies are only protected against the damage and conditions they would suffer when the user activates this ability, not from later effects from non-instantaneous spells or effects

Enlightened Bloodrager (Bloodrager archetype, Arcane Anthology)

- No longer gains the medium's spells per day progression, as well as no longer gaining spells from the sorcerer/wizard list
- Gains 0-level spells at 4th level as if they were a bard of their bloodrager level -3; selects these spells from the druid spell list
- Gains one 1st-level druid spell to their spells known at 4th level, one 2nd-level spell at 7th level, one 3rd-level spell at 10th level, and one 4th-level spell at 13th level; all druid spells gained are added to the bloodrager spell list for purposes of class features and abilities
- Ability to swap druid spells out begins at 8th level and every 3 levels thereafter; must select a druid spell of the same level, and any druid spell replaced is removed from that bloodrager's spell list
- Enlightened Bloodrage: No longer removes the penalty to AC for bloodrage; wording of removing the 1st level bloodrager bloodline power removed
- Bloodline Feats: Now only replaces the DR gained at 7th, 13th, and 19th level; DR 1/- at 10th level and DR 2/- at 16th level remain
- Bloodline Powers: Additional clarification that the enlightened bloodrager still uses their full bloodrager level when determining the strength of their bloodline powers, despite the permanently-delayed progression

Magaambyan Initiate (Arcanist archetype, Arcane Anthology)

- No changes

Extra Spontaneous Spell Mastery (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- No changes

Nameless One (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- Wording about scrying on your eschewed identities changed slightly; instead of "any attempt to scry on you independent of your eschewed identities", it now reads "any attempt to scry on you in relation to of your eschewed identities", which is both a typo and allows your previous identities to be discovered

Masked Intent (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- Now increases both the bonus to Bluff and the DC of the skills to find out information about you to +8 if you have 10 or more ranks in the mentioned skills

Mask Focus (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- Example spell changed from eyeless vision to mask from divination

Masked by Fear (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- No changes

Ritual Mask (Feat, Arcane Anthology)

- Second benefit updated to include medium in examples of classes with spirit class feature

Scholar (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Special: This feat is unaffiliated with the Magaambya, and can be taken by anyone

Mask from Divination (Spell, Arcane Anthology)

- No changes

Planar Inquiry (Spell, Arcane Anthology)

- No changes

Mammoth Lords:
Mammoth Rider (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- Animal companion or mount requirement changed from requiring an effective druid level of 6th or higher to requiring at least 6 Hit Dice
- Steed: Amargasaurus, brontotherium, deinotherium, dire polar bear, elasmotherium, kentrosaurus, moa, styracosaurus, uintatherium, and wooly rhinoceros added to list of available choices
- Mistrust of Magic: Updated to grant the bonus to saving throws against psychic spells as long as the mammoth rider has no levels in a psychic casting class

Mammoth Spirit (Shaman spirit option, Advanced Class Origins)

- Primal Speaker: 10th level ability now specifies Will negates
- Strength of the Beast: Now only progresses at +2 per 6 levels (14th and 20th) for the shaman's spirit, and once at 18th for wandering spirit
- Megafauna Companion: Baluchitherium, brontotherium, chalicotherium, deinotherium, elasmotherium, glyptodon, megatherium, and uintatherium added to available choices

Cold Celerity (Feat, People of the North)

- No changes

Rugged Northerner (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Special: This feat is unaffiliated with the Mammoth Lords, and can be taken by anyone

Tribal Hunter (Feat, Heroes of the Wild)

- Wording changed from "when you or an ally are adjacent to a creature larger than you" to "when you and an ally are adjacent to a creature larger than you"

Tribal Scars (Feat, People of the North)

- "Member of a Mammoth Lord tribe" requirement removed, replaced with Mammoth Lord affiliation
- Additional HP upon taking feat removed

Mammoth Hide (Unique magic armor, Melee Tactics Toolbox)

- Now costs 14,665 gp to purchase, up from 8,165 gp
- Now costs 7,415 gp to craft, up from 4,165 gp
- No longer has endure elements as a construction requirement
- Is now +3 hide armor, instead of +2
- Functions as rhino hide, except it deals 4d6 points of damage on first successful charge in a round
- Wording clarifying that the charge damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or via feats such as Spirited Charge removed
- No longer protects against cold conditions as endure elements

Mammoth Lance (Unique magic weapon, People of the North)

- Aura changed from moderate enchantment to moderate transmutation

Zoic Fetish (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Frost Mammoth (Spell, People of the North)

- Typo: Added to "shaman 7" list, intended to be shaman 6

Pathfinder Society:
Pathfinder Delver (Prestige class, Seekers of Secrets)

- Surefooted: Wording giving examples as to what difficult terrain this ability ignores removed
- Trap Sense: Wording clarifying that the Pathfinder delver gets trap senses bonuses at 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter added
- Thrilling Escape: Wording allowing the use of this ability on turns other than your own removed, wording granting this ability at 4th level corrected to 3rd level
- Left for Dead: Now specifies that you gain 1 HP after one minute to become conscious

Pathfinder Savant (Prestige class, Seekers of Secrets)

- 3 additional levels added
- Craft and Profession removed from class skill list
- Adept Activation: Wording about the savant not failing a UMD check on a 1 added; possible typo or stealth errata
- Esoteric Magic: Now specifies that the savant's base spellcasting class with the most levels is the class that this ability adds spells to
- Sigil Master: Wording about the savant being affected normally by writing-based traps that are already triggered but retaining his saving throw bonus removed
- Dispelling Master: Now specifies that prepared casters can sacrifice a 3rd level spell for dispel magic or a 6th level spell for dispel magic, greater
- Three new abilities: Symbol Master, Spellcasting Master, and Item Master
- Symbol Master: Increases save DCs, Perception DCs, and Disable Device DCs of symbols the savant casts by 2; immediate action double your sigil master bonus on a saving throw vs a symbol 1/day, must announce before the results are revealed; no automatic failure on a 1 vs saves on symbols
- Spellcasting Master: Swift action focus to not provoke attacks of opportunity from spellcasting for remainder of round 3/day, concentration spells used during this round persist after concentration ends for up to Int/Wis/Cha modifier number of rounds (Whichever's highest)
- Item Master: Spend an hour to attune a non-charged magic item and use your caster level to resolve its effects rather than the item's caster level; only one attunement at a time, doing a new one loses the older one

Student of War (Prestige class, Seekers of Secrets)

- New ability, Additional Skill: At 1st and every 2 levels after, gain a new class skill
- Know Your Enemy: Martial Stance now increases your Critical Focus bonus to +6 if you already have the Critical Focus feat
- Know Your Enemy: Defensive Stance now increases your Mobility bonus to +6 if you already have the Mobility feat
- Telling Blow: Now ignores 5 points of DR, up from 3

Lore Warden (Fighter archetype, Pathfinder Society Field Guide)

- Scholastic: "All Intelligence-based skills are class skills" has been been changed to "All Craft and Knowledge skills are class skills, as are Linguistics and Spellcraft"
- Expertise: Is now Skill Over Strength
- Skill Over Strength: Qualifies for feats and abilities as if possessing Combat Expertise at 2nd level; at 6th gains Combat Expertise or a feat that contains Combat Expertise as a prerequisite if Combat Expertise is already possessed; at 10th level treat BAB as two higher for purposes of Combat Expertise. Replaces bravery and 2nd level fighter bonus feat
- Maneuver Mastery, Know Thy Enemy, Hair's Breadth, Swift Lore, and Know Weakness: These are updated selectable powers from a new ability: Sword Secrets
- Sword Secrets: Gain a new power at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, replaces armor training and armor mastery
- Sword Secrets, Exploit Weakness: Was Know Weakness, add 1/3 class level on attack rolls to confirm critical hits; confirmed crits allow lore warden to ignore first 5 points of DR or hardness against that target until end of next turn at 11th level; at 19th automatically confirm up to one crit a round
- Sword Secrets, Hair's Breadth: Same as original power, except gain additional use at 15th level
- Sword Secrets, Know Thy Enemy: Now specifies that you take the standard action to activate after you make the Knowledge check; +2 bonus to attack and damage is now insight instead of competence; now has a duration of half class level (Minimum 2) or until ability is used on different creature. Gains a +2 bonus to AC against that target (Unknown if meant to be untyped or insight like atk/dmg bonus) at 11th level and at 19th level the insight bonus increases to +3
- Sword Secrets: Maneuver Training: Was Maneuver Mastery, now grants brawler's maneuver training class feature, with fighter levels used as brawler levels
- Sword Secrets, Swift Assessment: Was Swift Lore, use know thy enemy as move action; at 15th use know thy enemy as a swift action. Must have know thy enemy sword secret before taking

Pathfinder Chronicle (Misc. equipment, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

First Aid Gloves (Magic item, Pathfinder Society Primer)

- No changes

Wayfinder (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Clarifies that slotting an ioun stone inside replaces its light spell-like ability until removed

Wayfinder, Ebon (Magic item, Seekers of Secrets)

- No changes

Wayfinder, Shining (Magic item, Pathfinder Society Field Guide)

- No changes

Wayfinder, Vanishing (Magic item, Pathfinder Society Field Guide)

- No changes

Ioun Stone Resonances (Special, Seekers of Secrets)

- Clear Spindle: Changed from permanent protection from possession and mental to control to being able to cast protection from chaos/evil/good/law once a day at CL 12th. Can activate as immediate action, but renders the ioun stone dull gray
- Dark Blue Rhomboid: No change
- Deep Red Sphere: No change
- Dull Gray (Burnt out): No change
- Dusty Rose Prism: Now a +1 insight bonus to combat maneuver checks instead of a +2 insight bonus to CMB and CMD
- Incandescent Blue Sphere: No change
- Iridescent Spindle: Protection from vacuum and underwater pressure clarified to mean half damage from those sources
- Lavender and Green Ellipsoid: No change
- Orange Prism: Wording about spell failure and loss if the new caster level total is lower than the necessary level to cast the spell removed
- Pale Blue Rhomboid: No change
- Pale Green Prism: No change
- Pale Lavender Ellipsoid: No change
- Pearly White Spindle: Is now a +2 sacred bonus on death effects and negative energy effects, instead of a +1 sacred bonus against just negative energy effects
- Pink and Green Sphere: No change
- Pink Rhomboid: No change
- Scarlet and Blue Sphere: No change
- Vibrant Purple Prism: Now allows refreshing up to three spell levels per day, instead of being only able to refresh 1st level spells at will

Red Mantis:
Red Mantis Assassin (Prestige class, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Sneak Attack: Now specifies at what levels you get the increased damage
- Sabre Fighting: Now grants the ability to use sawtooth sabres as light weapons for all purposes, and specifies that you don't need to qualify for the additional feats through having fighter levels
- Prayer Attack: Now specifies that attempting the coup de grace attack does not break the fascination effect
- Fading: Now activated as an immediate action, not free
- Mantis Doom: Now specifies that the caster level is equal to the assassin's character level

Mantis Zealot (Warpriest archetype, Advanced Class Origins)

- Mantis Sworn: Now requires the warpriest to be Lawful Evil

Sawtooth sabre (Weapon, Ultimate Equipment)

- No changes

Crimson Bluff (Unique magic weapon, Inner Sea Combat)

- Transmutation removed from aura, now just moderate illusion
- Secondary ability is now an immediate action to activate instead of swift

Eye of the Mantis (Magic item, Faction Guide)

- All references to "prying eye" spell updated to the correct prying eyes spell
- Statue now reverts back to statue form if destroyed while animate

Mantis Blade (Minor artifact, Artifacts and Legends)

- No changes

Mantis Embrace (Magic item, Agents of Evil)

- No changes

Mask of the Mantis (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No changes

Red Stalker Armor (Unique magic armor, Inner Sea Gods)

- No changes

Mark of Blood (Spell, Faction Guide)

- Now available to bloodrager 2, inquisitor 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
- School changed from necromancy to transmutation [curse]
- "One living creature" removed from targets and added to descriptive text
- Now specifies that the curse effect is negated on a successful Will save, and that it is permanent on a failed save until dispelled or removed by spells like remove curse

Rivethun:
No reprints.

Silver Ravens:
No reprints.

Storm Kindlers:
Storm Kindler (Prestige class, Paths of Prestige)

- No changes

Tempest Druid (Druid archetype, Inner Sea Magic)

- Now requires the druid to be Chaotic Neutral to take this archetype
- Bend Bolt: Now usable Wisdom modifier times per day instead of Charisma

Storm-Lashed (Feat, Inner Sea World Guide)

- No change

Goz Mask (Magic item, Inner Sea World Guide)

- Water breathing duration changed to 60 minutes from 1 hour, for clarity's sake


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

*Holds up megaphone*

Behold everyone, the amazing MIRACLE WORKER! He never stops! He never sleeps! Rightfully loved by all for his dedicated and tireless service to his online community! :D

Thank you SO much for making this a reality, Dark Midian.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
I think they all changed, but I can't be sure. The only one I knew was the dusty rose (+2 CMB/CMD) which took a significant hit (+1 CMB).

Keep in mind the net is 1 loss to CMB/CMD as the stone itself adds to 1 to CMD (insight to AC applies to CMD)

Also when I get home/have time, I'll try to add to this thread like the original post.

Grand Lodge

I second what Ravingdork said. Great job! Thank you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

tbh I'm actually kind of sad that there were a lot of reprints with zero changes or minor ones. A lot of the prestige classes sucked and it would have been cool to make them ok instead


CWheezy wrote:
tbh I'm actually kind of sad that there were a lot of reprints with zero changes or minor ones. A lot of the prestige classes sucked and it would have been cool to make them ok instead

Much like archetypes, prestige classes are not meant to be "good". They're meant to be interesting and flavorful. Paizo wanted to avoid WotC's design philosophy of "Prestige classes are either hot garbage or 100% straight better upgrades to base classes" in 3.x.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dark Midian wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
tbh I'm actually kind of sad that there were a lot of reprints with zero changes or minor ones. A lot of the prestige classes sucked and it would have been cool to make them ok instead
Much like archetypes, prestige classes are not meant to be "good". They're meant to be interesting and flavorful. Paizo wanted to avoid WotC's design philosophy of "Prestige classes are either hot garbage or 100% straight better upgrades to base classes" in 3.x.

For me, if they aren't an upgrade from what I'm already playing, it's tossed in the trash. I can make a base class "interesting and flavorful" so why would I need to make my character worse to do the same thing? Unless the prestige class brings something new to the table, what's the point? You're giving up your progression in your normal class so it should give you something to compensate shouldn't it?

Making the majority 'MEH...' isn't a big improvement over 'hot mess' and much less exciting than an 'upgrade'. "interesting and flavorful" aren't a substitute for good mechanics and useful features...

Dark Archive

I was so hoping shadow dancer would get some love..


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Dark Midian wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
tbh I'm actually kind of sad that there were a lot of reprints with zero changes or minor ones. A lot of the prestige classes sucked and it would have been cool to make them ok instead
Much like archetypes, prestige classes are not meant to be "good". They're meant to be interesting and flavorful. Paizo wanted to avoid WotC's design philosophy of "Prestige classes are either hot garbage or 100% straight better upgrades to base classes" in 3.x.

Flavour and power are not exclusive.

Good design also includes playability, it is a game afterall. What good is a game that is very aesthetic and oozing flavour but have rules that aren't well thought out?

Sovereign Court

Hubaris wrote:
Dark Midian wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
tbh I'm actually kind of sad that there were a lot of reprints with zero changes or minor ones. A lot of the prestige classes sucked and it would have been cool to make them ok instead
Much like archetypes, prestige classes are not meant to be "good". They're meant to be interesting and flavorful. Paizo wanted to avoid WotC's design philosophy of "Prestige classes are either hot garbage or 100% straight better upgrades to base classes" in 3.x.

Flavour and power are not exclusive.

Good design also includes playability, it is a game afterall. What good is a game that is very aesthetic and oozing flavour but have rules that aren't well thought out?

It belongs in a museum!


@Dark Midian: You are a hero.

I did notice an oversight regarding the tribal hunter feat which in my reading is rather important.

The original versinon explicitly calls out that you must be adjacent and flanking for the feat to trigger.

The Reprint does not.

I'm really wondering if this change was intended as it would mean a considerable boost in the feats power.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Why would the old feat say you needed to be flanking in order to get flanking? Wouldn't that make it completely useless as written?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Why would the old feat say you needed to be flanking in order to get flanking? Wouldn't that make it completely useless as written?

As originally written, it looks like it would cover the case where there are three of you surrounding a larger opponent and two of you are flanking it. With this feat, the 3rd party member who is not actually in a flanking position can also count as flanking.

Maybe the removal of the flanking requirement was an intentional improvement to the feat?


David knott 242 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Why would the old feat say you needed to be flanking in order to get flanking? Wouldn't that make it completely useless as written?

As originally written, it looks like it would cover the case where there are three of you surrounding a larger opponent and two of you are flanking it. With this feat, the 3rd party member who is not actually in a flanking position can also count as flanking.

Maybe the removal of the flanking requirement was an intentional improvement to the feat?

Agreed. Also as written now the feat does not require you to threaten.


Old Text

Quote:


When either you or an ally with this feat is adjacent to and flanking an opponent that is larger than either of you, you both are considered to be flanking the opponent as long as you remain adjacent to it.

In the case of a large opponent, all 3 could be flanking.

1
MM
MM
23

1 flanks with 2 and 3, but 2 and 3 do not flank with each other. 2 and 3 are adjacent to the opponent. You don't need Tribal Hunter in this case.

In the old text it would work when the following happened:

1
MM2
MM
3

Ally (1 or 3) has the feat, is adjacent to the enemy (M), so 2 is flanking as all three conditions are met.

I think it was to clarify it.

Does anyone have the new text for me? I'm curious now.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hubaris wrote:
Does anyone have the new text for me? I'm curious now.

Here's a snippet.


Benefit: When you and an ally with this feat are adjacent to an opponent that is larger than either of you, you both are considered to be flanking the opponent as long as you remain adjacent to it.
Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.


Interesting change, basically now 1 and 3 just have to be adjacent and not flanking (so doesn't need to threaten either). Stealth buff I guess.


I started thinking about a small holy tactician with this feat. At level 3 everyone gets a lot better at flanking.


nicholas storm wrote:
I started thinking about a small holy tactician with this feat. At level 3 everyone gets a lot better at flanking.

I'm thinking a rogue with a tiny valet familiar wearing a meancing AoMF. Not sure whether Familars can wear AoMF though...


Auto flanking options keep on getting better and better.


One of the things that's always bugged my about the Pathfinder setting was the number of books you needed just to find out about one organization or group of people. I mean you need the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path to find out about Green Faith. How many books do you need to learn about the Shoanti? Being able to get one book that collates all these different things into one book, seems like an excellent idea.

Sovereign Court

The books just go into more details about various organizations. Inner Sea World Guide is still perfectly fine.

It's only a problem if you want to have every single options and details available and how some options get upgraded (like adventurer's guide talks about psychic magic involvement in the organizations).


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Nobody minded getting a book that put many of the organizations in one spot. The problems a lot of people had with the book basically came down to three things:

1) A book on organizations probably should have had a different name.

2) This book should have been kept in the Campaign line, rather than the Core line.

3) The book contains a significant amount of reprinted material.


Ravingdork wrote:
2) This book should have been kept in the Campaign line, rather than the Core line.

Very much this. I'm not sure why it wasn't. Are people (who play in and enjoy Golarion) more likely to buy an RPG line book than a Campaign Setting book? People who don't care about Golarion probably weren't going to buy the Adventurer's guide anyway.

Like the reason I buy almost exclusively RPG line books is because they're generally applicable to any setting I would want to play Pathfinder in. I'll let the people I know who run games in the canonical setting buy this one.

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