I'm looking for rules legal ideas that would allow PCs to hide the dangling rope from a rope trick spell.
For example: using a black rope, or coloring a rope black, for better concealment when in use at night; or surrounding the rope with a stack of crates in a warehouse full of crates, or a placing an illusory crop of trees and brush around it in a forest.
I know the spell says the rope cannot be hidden, but I like to think that, that just means it cannot be hidden "by pulling it up into the space" or something similar, elsewise the campaign world would collapse on its own logic every time the spell is cast (as the rope would always be hidden from anyone who didn't have line of sight to it, even if you did nothing to it).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Always cast the spell in a bell tower.
Yeah, I've wondered exactly what then intention of "cannot be hidden" meant.
I think it was designed to prevent you from pulling the rope into the rope trick so that no one else could get in. The devs didn't want rope trick to be a perfect shelter.
But "cannot be hidden" is big coverage. As you point out it would be hidden from most people in the world since a large amount of planet would be between them and the rope, or beyond human sight. So it clearly doesn't cast that wide of a net.
I think "cannot be hidden" at the very least doesn't include mundane means like camouflaging it for night use by using a black rope.
Beyond that...eh it's not clear.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What if you cast it in a rope factory? ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's going to be a *very* surprised delivery truck driver in 2 hours/level from now...
I was being semi-serious I mean it's not hidden but harder to notice I suppose? ;)
We didn't actually do this in a recent campaign, but I thought it would work fine.
There was this 50-foot radius pit, something like 150 feet deep, far down in the dungeon. I though if I put up a 5-foot rope, 70 feet from the top, it would be more than the range of 60-foot darkvision from both the top and the bottom. You could reach it by using another rope, which you would then detach, leaving the 5-foot rope in a place where nobody would see it unless they were actually in the process of climbing up or down this huge pit. As this spot was known for the gorgons who used to live down there, it seemed a fair bet that nobody would notice it.
In fact, any out-of-the-way location is a very good spot for a rope trick. Hiding it behind something, or disguising it by color (prestigitation, anyone?) seem to me fair game.
I was being semi-serious I mean it's not hidden but harder to notice I suppose? ;)
I know :)
I bet a theater would be good too--by the curtain ropes or all the scenery mover lines...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was being semi-serious I mean it's not hidden but harder to notice I suppose? ;)I know :)
I bet a theater would be good too--by the curtain ropes or all the scenery mover lines...
Gallows? ;)
Ooooo! Thematic!
Rope Trick mentions the rope has to be 5' long; you could tie knots in it, decreasing it's effective length and making the whole thing look less "rope-like".
|
Some of the glamer spells like Hide Campsite, Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcana could conceal the rope behind illusory trees or hillocks. Casting invisibility on the rope would conceal it for a little while.
Masterwork rope crafted from plant fibers or animal fur that blends into a variety of surroundings (camouflaged rope) would be rules friendly, but you'd need to come up with a fair price and DC for Perception checks to notice it. Off the top of my head, I'd say something like 30gp/50ft. for camouflaged rope with the properties of hemp rope but requiring a DC 10 Perception check to notice it against the appropriate background. Better quality rope (silk properties) might cost 50gp/50ft but require a DC 12 Perception check to spot it.
Any spell that creates a physical obstruction around or near the rope could be used to conceal it or discourage anyone from getting close to it. Most of the wall and barrier spells probably won't last long enough to be worth it, but you could put a Rope Trick in a Secure Shelter and have an attic to hide in.
You could try hiding the correct rope. Drop a bunch of ropes out of the extradimensional window that are tied to heavy objects; a cauldron of acid, a small anvil, an angry bobcat, whatever is going to hurt the most when it comes crashing down on top of your enemies.
If all else fails, you might just have to make the rope really difficult or painful to climb. Pour grease down the rope, coat it in contact poison or use an Iron Rope to cast the spell and then activate it and cast Heat or Chill Metal on it.
All these camouflage methods would work, unless the reason the rope can't be hidden is that it's magical manifesting effect is continuous, perhaps a magical glow, or sparkles for gnomes and ponyfinder casters.
Invisibility can be cast on objects, and can be made permanent.
What if a party had permanent invisibility put on the rope prior to using it as the target of a rope trick spell? :P
What would violate "the cannot be hidden" rule more than this.Invisibility can be cast on objects, and can be made permanent.
What if a party had permanent invisibility put on the rope prior to using it as the target of a rope trick spell? :P
Oh, you mean that one rule that makes absolutely no sense as it stands on its own? :P
|
|
Yeah, it seems that "cannot be hidden" statement seems to intend the rope has to remain anchored, not that it cannot be concealed from view. For reasons Ravingdork already listed, it doesn't make sense to say there is no possible way to hide the rope. By that logic, a blind, sleeping hedgehog could automatically find the rope if it was in an area of Deeper Darkness, in the middle of a blizzard, surrounded by nettles and woven from a single strand of Superman's hair.
It makes way more sense to assume they meant you can still obstruct the rope from view.
Interestingly, the rope could be pulled into the space and counted as one creature in every version of the spell prior to Pathfinder.
Making the "cannot be hidden" aspect easy to get around provides a significant increase in the spell's utility at little effort. If it makes it as effective as a higher level "safe haven" sort of spell then you have potential balance issues. I suppose you can add it to the long list of potential FAQ candidates.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know those little tiny spots of light you see, darting around when you close your eyes?
Those are rope trick ropes from all over the cosmos. They cannot be hidden.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure about how the first and last sentence here interact: "The rope cannot be removed or hidden. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free." Maybe with a great enough force/weight you can actually remove the rope. Maybe that ends the rope trick.
It might be possible to transform the rope into something else after the spell is cast, with Fabricate or a similar spell.
I'm fairly sure an illusory wall between the rope and any observer would, in fact, hide the rope.
Alchemical cement or paper wall paste might disguise the rope as part of a wall.
Edit: the way I read that 'removed or hidden' phrase is that the rope is attached to the extradimensional space and can't simply be disconnected, and can't be hidden within the space. That's just my way of making it make sense and obviously not the only possible reading.
Pitt's reading is certainly possible, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. As you posted that Pitt, I put my reading of the phrase in an edit in my last post.
The illusory wall would work because it is concealing the area the rope is in, not the rope specifically.
I had read the "cannot be hidden" clause in Pathfinder's version of Rope Trick to mean two things:
1) You can't just pull the rope into the space, it has to dangle.
2) The rope resists any and all magical effects directly affecting the rope (e.g. vanish).
You can still put an illusory wall in front of the rope, you can put an actual wall in front of the rope, you can set up your rope trick in a bell tower or near the curtains so it blends in as an ordinary rope, you can put it in a dark place, or a place that's hard to see.
You just can't magic the rope itself.
I just don't think you're allowed to hide the rope, in any fashion, unless the spell were errataed to read otherwise.
Define 'hide'. If I climb down a pitch-black well and cast it, the rope is pretty well hidden. Does that mean the spell fails? Or if I cast it in a rope shop, to hide it in plain sight, is that impossible? If the rope just happens to be the same color as its surroundings? If I create an illusory wall around the room it's in? Around the rope itself?
Tangential question: When casting a rope trick from within a moving vehicle, what happens? Is the rope anchored to the vehicle or does it stay in place until forced aside by part of the vehicle and thus breaking the rope trick.
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.
Is the planet not a vehicle for our earthly selves?
;P
You know, some of real world logic must be left out of the game because weird conclussions pop out if you don't.
Like «in Pathfinder you cannot see the Sun» xD
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.Is the planet not a vehicle for our earthly selves?
;P
Clearly we just need a big enough "vehicle" first to cast it on/in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.Is the planet not a vehicle for our earthly selves?
;P
If your vehicle's gravitational influence over you is greater than that of the planet, I'd let your extradimensional entrance move with it.
But then you've got other problems.
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.
Handy for navigation. It can be hard to tell on the open ocean (without instruments) whether a current is dragging you off course. Rope trick is the answer, since it's apparently anchored to the planet.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.Is the planet not a vehicle for our earthly selves?
;P
Stay far away from that line of thought. Otherwise, you might get hit by an Immovable Rod that's going very, very fast.
Anyway, consider the alternative. Bring as much rope as you can, cut into 10 foot sections. Leave them behind you in droves, hanging from random rafters and stalagtites. Rig many of them with cheap traps, so curious monsters will pull down buckets of rancid meat onto their heads or trigger small rocks to fall. Leave yourself in a sea of hanging ropes. By the time the enemy glances at your Rope Trick mixed with dozens of Tricky Ropes, the last thing they'll want to do is give it a tug.
Just checked S&S's players guide.
It states specifically that Mage's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick's entrances do NOT move with the ship.
The entrance remains in a static place, no matter if the vehicle is moving.Is the planet not a vehicle for our earthly selves?
;P
Stay far away from that line of thought. Otherwise, you might get hit by an Immovable Rod that's going very, very fast.
Anyway, consider the alternative. Bring as much rope as you can, cut into 10 foot sections. Leave them behind you in droves, hanging from random rafters and stalagtites. Rig many of them with cheap traps, so curious monsters will pull down buckets of rancid meat onto their heads or trigger small rocks to fall. Leave yourself in a sea of hanging ropes. By the time the enemy glances at your Rope Trick mixed with dozens of Tricky Ropes, the last thing they'll want to do is give it a tug.
I now have two more tricks up my sleeve, one for escaping Villains and one for when my PCs start trying to philosophize at me about this sort of thing.
How will they find the villain when his hide out is a Rope Trick hidden in a belltower loaded with ropes that drop bear-traps on their faces?
Probably by burning the belltower down, but thats PC logic for you.
|
An irrelevant, but interesting tidbit ---
For some reason I thought you could pull the rope up into the extra-dimensional space, but the spell in Pathfinder doesn't seem to allow it. Heck, that's the way my play group treats the spell! Figuring it was some sort of remnant memory (since I've been playing this game since 1st Edition), I pulled out my AD&D 2nd Edition Players's Handbook and the spell (in that version) says:
"The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than 8 persons have climbed it, otherwise it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures might be able to remove it, at the DM's option)."
The pulling the rope up thing must of bothered someone on the Pathfinder development team, since the D&D 3.5 version of the spell says:
"The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope 'disappear.' In this case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space."
And for good measure I checked my AD&D 1st Edition Player's Handbook and it says:
"The rope cannot be taken into the extra-dimensional space if six persons have climbed in, but otherwise it can be pulled up."
So in all previous versions of the game, the rope can be pulled up into the extra-dimensional space, but they not only changed it for Pathfinder, but added the cannot be hidden language.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In previous editions, rope trick lasted only 20 min/lv. It was a safe pace to rest in the middle of the day to heal, prepare spells, and get ready for the rest of the day; it wasn't intended for overnight camping.
In 3rdEd it was changed to 1 hour/lv, but that had the problem of an extended rope trick being able to last for many hours. Effectively, this gave a 2nd level spell much of the utility of a 7th level spell, so Pathfinder changed it to make it harder to camp with immunity.
Personally, I think the "cannot be hidden" is vague and nonsensical, I just balance the spell in my home game by reducing it's duration and allowing the rope to be pulled up.
So what if someone sees you camped out inside the Rope Trick? Short of access to Dispel Magic, what are they gonna do? Climb up the rope one at a time while you stab them? Pull on it with greater than 16,000 lbs of force?
So what if someone sees you camped out inside the Rope Trick? Short of access to Dispel Magic, what are they gonna do? Climb up the rope one at a time while you stab them? Pull on it with greater than 16,000 lbs of force?
Massive ambush? You gotta come out sometime. And you can't see it coming since you can only see the area directly beneath the hole.
Also Rope Trick + Dispel Magic = Probable TPK
I've heard of enemies setting up a bonfire underneath the rope, or setting up similar traps and hazards that would be more or less unavoidable for anyone climbing down the rope, or being dumped out at the conclusion of the spell's duration.
Now this is when you want the line of Pit spells.
This is all part of the Pathfinder wargame philosophy. Rope trick, being only a third level spell must have a counterable weakness to be balanced and fair. Hence, the rope, which points to the haven the spell creates and this weakness cannot be easily gotten around. A lot of all your ideas on getting around the weakness are perfectly reasonable. Things like camouflaged or effectively invisible ropes are not, because they are easy and reliable, and non-situation dependent. The Bell Tower and Theater backstage are excellent ideas, but obviously situational, so are not easy.
We can argue whether the rule is stupid here, this is Advice and not Rules Questions, but a nod to why it is probably this way is appropriate.
EDIT/ADD. I often forget what sub-forum I am in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If your vehicle's gravitational influence over you is greater than that of the planet, I'd let your extradimensional entrance move with it.
But then you've got other problems.
Other awesomeness, you mean! Apostae, here we come!
Rope trick is way too much of a hassle to manage with how much DM vs Player sentiment it causes. I'd either make it higher level or do away with it altogether and stick to spells like Hide Campsite.
Another option is using Mirror Hideaway instead of Rope Trick. Just bring a mirror instead of a rope.
Another option is using Mirror Hideaway instead of Rope Trick. Just bring a mirror instead of a rope.
Eh, except you need a mirror big enough for you to walk through. Probably easier to carry a bit of rope than a full length mirror around with you.
What if you use something, like a summon, to burn the rope after you climb up? Is the rope immune to damage while being used in a rope trick?
And what happens if you cast a rope trick while inside of a rope trick? When the first one ends, do you still fall out of the second one or does the new one just fall into the place where the old one was?
What if you use something, like a summon, to burn the rope after you climb up?
Literal RAW suggests the ashes of the rope cannot be hidden in any way.
A non-RAW answer could be that burning the rope ends the spell.
And what happens if you cast a rope trick while inside of a rope trick?
I don't think you can have an extradimensional space inside another extradimensional space.
I guess anything could be a non-RAW answer, but I don't see anything suggesting that the spell ends if the rope gets destroyed. Spells that get dispelled when something happens, always specify that kind of behavior, like unseen servant or mage hand.
By a non-RAW answer, I mean a good house rule that a sensible GM would adopt, given that the spell as described makes very little sense.