Would it be ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?


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LuniasM wrote:
...okay?

Just sayin' that possibly won't apply to most people and they can't count/depend on it.

LuniasM wrote:
Whatever works for their group is fine, obviously.

I think the whole problem here is when the crafter in the group wants to be paid extra and other members in the group disagree. Which means you basically have one of four outcomes...

A, the crafter relents and crafts for cost
B, the others relent and pay extra
C, the others are pissed off and refuse to pay the crafter extra on principle
D, someone (or more than one person) leaves the group

Plus any or all of the above can lead to a toxic environment within the group. So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.


Balkoth wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
...okay?

Just sayin' that possibly won't apply to most people and they can't count/depend on it.

LuniasM wrote:
Whatever works for their group is fine, obviously.

I think the whole problem here is when the crafter in the group wants to be paid extra and other members in the group disagree. Which means you basically have one of four outcomes...

A, the crafter relents and crafts for cost
B, the others relent and pay extra
C, the others are pissed off and refuse to pay the crafter extra on principle
D, someone (or more than one person) leaves the group

Plus any or all of the above can lead to a toxic environment within the group. So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

It's worth remembering that it's at least partly a meta-game question - issues of balance and of downtime/adventure time balance.

It's also worth consulting with the GM about how they intend to handle WBL balance. If they're going to follow the guidelines and reduce available loot based on how much crafting is done, that changes the equation of how worth it reduced price crafting will be.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.


Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the rules.

Quote:

However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.

If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.

There's a separate, but related question about how other downtime activities should be allowed to affect a character's power through increase in gear/WBL. I think the implication that it shouldn't - unless the character invests feats or other character build resources and that it should be limited to roughly the same return as crafting feats provide.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

That's not the question at all. The OP is playing a crafter and he wants to charge full book price for the items his partymates want him to craft for them. And he came to the messageboards for justification for such a stance in the mistaken opinion that he needed us for validation or that our discussion would count as such. Where it's really a question of group dynamics, ergo will his group accept such a stance or not. Some folks have brought up WBL issues in an effort to complicate the matter to make it interesting, but it doesn't change the basic question.

As usual, the messageboard community took this as another opportunity to get into a never-ending argument.


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So the original question is, "Is it ok for a crafter pg to make his allies pay full price for objects he crafts?" with the caveats that, " this question arises from a MECHANICAL and BALANCE issue."

So if someone took craft feats but charged the other PCs full price for them what would be the effect? The only thing we can say for certain in this scenario is that, should the other PCs pay him as opposed to just buying the same items at the same price from the Magi-mart without the wait, the crafting PC will end up with a vast increase in personal wealth and exactly tailored magical items beyond the expected WBL while other PCs will still be stuck to WBL. The crafter will actually go well beyond even the "doubling" of WBL if they get the PCs to buy in as they have effectively increased their portion of wealth found so that their starting point before crafting has already broken WBL.

The balance perspective on that will be one PC, who presumably is a 9th level caster to being with, will now have disproportionately more powerful abilities. Their saving throw DCs will be a few points higher, they will cast more spells per day, they will have metamagic rods to make their spells more powerful, their saves will be better etc. so, challenging that PC will be harder than even a normal crafter while at the same time the rest of the PCs wont have any advantages of crafting feats. It will also be very difficult for the GM to handle as any WBL drop they use to tone down Crafter will set back the rest of the PCs below WBL expectations while Crafter is still able to use discounted crafting and fees from the other players to at least stay ahead of the curved compared to other players. And unless the reduction in found wealth is severe, the crafter will likely stay ahead of WBL no matter how much wealth is dropped by the GM.

As another opinion, there is an assumption in the original question that taking crafting feats sets the crafter behind a power curve as opposed to taking feats to directly enhance spell casting (or any other option). I see this as a deeply flawed assumption as the wizard with twice as many pearls of power has a greater advantage than the wizard who summons monsters with +2 STR. And the Summoner focus in the example has their benefit fixed to just one benefit while the crafter can use one feat to boost their own stats, plus their saves, plus get extra spells per day, plus AC and a whole host of other items to create beyond regular expectations from their feat choice. This is not even looking at what they could provide to the rest of the group in tailored magical items should the crafter choose to equip their party over increasing personal wealth. Over time a single crafting feat will pay off more than almost any other feat i could imagine (the one big stand out ahead of a single crafting feat is the leadership feat with your cohort being a dedicated crafter... which i've seen before and, boy oh boy, can THAT get ridiculous)

Beyond that there has been a lot of ethical debate and in setting analysis of what a crafter looks to others in the game and at the table but that is beyond the original question. My view on the ethics of the matter has been explored in previous posts and is probably best kept to myself at this point. There are people here who would not want to game with me and i would not want to game with them.


RDM42 wrote:
Dastis wrote:

1st. Its perfectly ok from a roleplay perspective. I write apps but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit there all day making some for my buddies for no cost

As for how much WBL increase he should have I would compare it to how much it costs to buy a feat. Problem is feats vary in price. Also items do not count for meeting perquisites

8301 will buy a combat feat in the form of a +1 training gauntlet
10000 will buy an Ioun stone with alertness or endurance
etc.

Another method would be looking at the best case scenario then breaking down how many feats you would need. I am going to be a bit liberal with the numbers to show how much the craft feats are worth in good conditions. Lets say you can cover roughly 95% of your items costs max with all the crafting feats you need. That would give you a WBL of 190% max. Of course this assumes you get everything in GP. This would be reduced significantly by getting loot in items. IE: compare 4000gp vs a 4000gp item. With crafting 4000gp is basically 8000gp but the item is still 4000gp. I am going to assume 50% in items and 50% in gp for simplicity. So assuming you can craft 95% of items you want you end up with 47.5%

Obviously for this we would need Craft Wondrous items. If you are a caster you would want Craft Rod. If you are anyone else you would probably want craft magical arms and armor. Assuming you never need revival magic and are extremely frugal with other items you can reasonably end up with that 47.5% extra WBL for 2 or 3 feats. Breaking that down is hopeless though Craft Wondrous would probably be carrying most of that %

As a dm I'm cool with an extra 25% per feat. It gets a bit wonky at high levels but high levels were made to be broken

Do you go on daring life or death raids with your buddies where the presence or absence of an ap could mean the difference in life and death for all of you? I'm not entirely sure the situations are parallel.

Your right its not comparable. In life it just means a bit more comfort. In game me having extra money is life and death. Hence me giving a discount is all the more valuable


Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.

His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.

What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack?

what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?


Rub-Eta wrote:
Ierox wrote:
Yes! I won't pay him more than he could usually get just because he's my friend.
But you're only paying for the material components, not for his work and time, if you don't pay him more than 50% of the item's value. Do you expect him do make it for free, just because you're friends?

Yes, because he has no other option. If I don't buy from him, he will only ever sell at 50% cost.

I don't see why the fact that I'm the one buying, as opposed to an NPC, should change that.

He doesn't have to craft for me, obviously, but if he's going to, then I'm going to pay him 50%, because that's what his items are worth.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
thejeff wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the rules.

Quote:

However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.

If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.

There's a separate, but related question about how other downtime activities should be allowed to affect a character's power through increase in gear/WBL. I think the implication that it shouldn't - unless the character invests feats or other character build resources and that it should be limited to roughly the same return as crafting feats provide.

What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion?


Ravingdork wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

Well, if that's the question, there's an answer in the rules.

Quote:

However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.

If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.

There's a separate, but related question about how other downtime activities should be allowed to affect a character's power through increase in gear/WBL. I think the implication that it shouldn't - unless the character invests feats or other character build resources and that it should be limited to roughly the same return as crafting feats provide.

What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion?

Ultimate Campaign. There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.


Ravingdork wrote:
What's the source for that rule you quoted? GameMastery Guide? Ultimate Campaign? Ultimate Equipment? A FAQ? Some forum post containing a developer's opinion?

Ultimate Campaign, page 173.


If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.

If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.


Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.

"Campaign Systems

This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."


DrDeth wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.

His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.

No, he gets the same share of loot.

Quote:
What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack?

The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

Quote:
what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?

See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.

Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around!


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nicholas storm wrote:

If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.

If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.

More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot found to compensate. Since loot is divided, this has the negative effect of lowering everyone's wealth, likely leaving the crafter above WBL and everyone else below.


Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.

"Campaign Systems

This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."

Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away.


thejeff wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:

If you follow the rules in ultimate campaign, you could charge your allies full price for crafting, but the extra gold you get from crafting would not be added to your character - it would just poof disappear.

If you charged less than full price, your own WBL would decrease and whatever extra you would make from the item creation would poof disappear.

More accurately, your wealth would increase to a point ~25%-50%, after that the GM would decrease the loot found to compensate. Since loot is divided, this has the negative effect of lowering everyone's wealth, likely leaving the crafter above WBL and everyone else below.

Only if the GM is bad at balancing loot, and gives all of it as pure cash and/or trash items that exist to be sold for GP. Most GMs will toss out at least some keepable items along with the pure cash, and having those drops favor the non-crafter can easily balance WBL.


_Ozy_ wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.

His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.

No, he gets the same share of loot.

Quote:
What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack?

The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

Quote:
what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?

See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.

Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around!

Same share yes, but of more loot.

There is no extra loot if everyone is just selling to each other.


thejeff wrote:
There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.

And which features this gem:

"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."

In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day.


DrDeth wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
So this thread is about what to do in case of disagreement and who has the most reasonable case.

No it's not.

"In your opinion, what do you think is the right trade-off between effective loss of feats and effective increase of WBL?"

^ This is what the thread is about. This is what the OP set before us to try and answer. Don't go around moving the goal posts. Make a new thread for that.

The crafter spends a feat to increase the entire parties WBL, thus making the party better are adventuring.

His reward is a share of the increased loot the better party gets.

No, he gets the same share of loot.

Quote:
What reward should a Fighter get for taking Power attack?

The same reward that the Wizard gets for taking spell focus: conjuration. On the other hand, if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

Quote:
what reward should the cleric get for taking Improved Init, so her party buff go off faster?

See the above. It's even easier for the Cleric to take crafting and jump on the 'extra loot' bandwagon.

Heck, if everyone in the party takes a craft feat, then it's extra loot all around!

Same share yes, but of more loot.

There is no extra loot if everyone is just selling to each other.

There is extra loot if your WBL is otherwise being adjusted downward without a craft feat.

You need craft feats just to keep your WBL up.


Balkoth wrote:
thejeff wrote:
There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.

And which features this gem:

"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."

In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day.

Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.

Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.

Grand Lodge

_Ozy_ wrote:

if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.

So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.

Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing.


dwayne germaine wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.

So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.

Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing.

Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.

win - win - win for everyone*!

*GMs not included


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_Ozy_ wrote:
dwayne germaine wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.

So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.

Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing.

Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.

win - win - win for everyone*!

*GMs not included

Who just shrugs and gives you less loot to make up for the wealth your cohort brings in.


thejeff wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.

"Campaign Systems

This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."

Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away.

True. Just wanted to point that out since its a optional system.

It doesn't stop the point of the crafter using their downtime or craft time while adventuring for themselves only.

You get 8 hours of crafting in a day if you do nothing else or 4 hours while adventuring. Assuming you even have that time in the day.

If the crafter is doing nothing else. Then sure they should craft for the others in the group. That's a good thing to do.

But if they have a set of goals to reach and a crafting list (Pearls of Power, Headband, etc) and the other members of the group demand that the crafter make for everyone when they only have time for their own projects...it becomes unfair.

At that point its not ridiculous to ask for a small percentage in tips (15 to 20 percent) of the item. Because now the crafter is stuck making for everyone and missing out on the entire reason they got the feat in the first place (to make stuff for themselves).

All players have access to crafting feats or have the option of purchasing certain items in a large enough town.

A player getting a crafting feat doesn't automatically mean that everyone else gets to benefit from it. If they are short on time the other players can get a crafting feat as well...


Brain in a Jar wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Ultimate Campaign is optional rules anyway.

"Campaign Systems

This chapter presents a variety of small tweaks for your campaign, each one focused on giving life to moments and depth to activities in your game. You can use these systems individually or mix and match them together to taste."

Of course, if you're not using those optional rules a lot of the "Well you're cutting into my profitable downtime by making me craft" arguments go away.

True. Just wanted to point that out since its a optional system.

It doesn't stop the point of the crafter using their downtime or craft time while adventuring for themselves only.

You get 8 hours of crafting in a day if you do nothing else or 4 hours while adventuring. Assuming you even have that time in the day.

If the crafter is doing nothing else. Then sure they should craft for the others in the group. That's a good thing to do.

But if they have a set of goals to reach and a crafting list (Pearls of Power, Headband, etc) and the other members of the group demand that the crafter make for everyone when they only have time for their own projects...it becomes unfair.

At that point its not ridiculous to ask for a small percentage in tips (15 to 20 percent) of the item. Because now the crafter is stuck making for everyone and missing out on the entire reason they got the feat in the first place (to make stuff for themselves).

All players have access to crafting feats or have the option of purchasing certain items in a large enough town.

A player getting a crafting feat doesn't automatically mean that everyone else gets to benefit from it. If they are short on time the other players can get a crafting feat as well...

As I said above, if it's one or the other, there's little point in crafting for others, even with a surcharge. Wealth you don't turn into gear is pretty useless in this game. Making stuff for Bob so you have more money to make stuff for yourself that you don't make because you don't have time is silly. Even less sense if you make Bob's stuff for 60% then have to go buy your own.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.

Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.

JUUUUUUUUUUUST to make sure we're on the same page...

Unskilled laborers earn 0.1 gold per day.

Skilled laborers earn 1 gold per day.

Magic shop owners earn 3 gold per day.

Very skilled (PC help) magic shop owners earn 4-5 gold per day.

The most renowned bards in the world earn 10.5 gold per day.

But somehow your PC crafter can make 500 gold per day. Which I think brings us back to the core idea of...

"In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."

So the GM would be well within his/her rights to say that you might be able to craft steadily at that 25% price (assuming that's right)...but with such an output you literally can't find the customers to sell your stuff at a steady stream.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
thejeff wrote:
There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.

And which features this gem:

"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."

In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day.

Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.

Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.

Did you read the quoted bit: "income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day."

Turning your work into Magic capital doesn't change that. It lets you craft more stuff, but doesn't generate customers to buy it from you.

Now, you can use that Magic Capital to craft stuff for your personal use - or to sell to other PCs, but that falls under the Adjusting WBL guidelines.

Grand Lodge

_Ozy_ wrote:
dwayne germaine wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

if the Fighter is jealous of the supposed extra loot the Wizard is getting, he can take a crafting feat of his own to cash in on the lucrative business. Nobody is stopping him.

No no, He just goes off adventuring with the other non-crafters while the crafters work on their stuff. It's the only solution he has to the question of what to do to try to keep up in wealth with the crafter.

So those who don't craft spend their time playing while the crafter tries to get richer than the other people in the party by making money off of them.

Of course this just makes everyone not want to take crafting feats because it interferes with playing.

Nope. At that point everyone gets leadership so they get their own loyal wizard crafter. Then everyone goes off and plays while all of their followers stay home and craft.

win - win - win for everyone*!

*GMs not included

That's a totally acceptable solution to me


thejeff wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Balkoth wrote:
thejeff wrote:
There's a following section that addresses item creation for profit as well - with a similar "exceed by 25%" guideline.

And which features this gem:

"You might want to use an appropriate business to sell crafted items for more than half price, but the downtime system already accounts for using a building to generate money, as well as spending personal time helping run the business (see Run a Business). A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop."

In other words, earning 4-5 gold per day is on the high end of running a magic shop. That's your opportunity cost per day.

Only if you're not also using that business to accumulate Magic capital, which you then use to craft at 1/4 and sell for 1/2.

Then your opportunity cost is ~500gp per day.

Did you read the quoted bit: "income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day."

Turning your work into Magic capital doesn't change that. It lets you craft more stuff, but doesn't generate customers to buy it from you.

Now, you can use that Magic Capital to craft stuff for your personal use - or to sell to other PCs, but that falls under the Adjusting WBL guidelines.

Did you read the part where that was about trying to sell items at full value (or at least more than half price)? If you can sell loot for 1/2 value with no problems, then you can sell crafted value for 1/2 value with no problems.

Unless you mean to tell me that the buyer somehow will buy a looted +1 sword for 1k, but not a crafted +1 sword?

Community & Digital Content Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a number of abusive posts and locking. This discussion has gotten past the point of usefulness, and the rhetoric being used by some is really against the spirit of our Advice subforum.

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