In general, what character builds or concepts do not pan out in PFS?


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4/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Most are covered above. In general, anything that requires the GM to interpret the rules a certain way, is problematic in PFS. In particular, I've had issues with illusion magic in PFS, as that entire school seems to have issues with table variation. Stealth too.

Not so much a PFS issue, but one for Pathfinder in general, is that there aren't really that many abilities that allow a Tank character to hold the enemy's attention like in most MMORPGs.

As BNW pointed out, lots of issues getting low level healers to be more than just wand holders. I think the ease of access to wands for low level characters serves to really nerf clerics of good deities, at least at low levels. I've played several scenarios where my dedicated healer is mostly casting guidance and light, because they just have no other use to the party.

In general, I've noticed that characters designed to be supportive, but not really a combatant, seem to be looked down upon in PFS. This could just be a local or personal thing, as I do mostly make support characters.

I dunno about that, we had a pair of Banner of Ancient Kings + Flagbearer bards at the last table I ran. I heard no complaints about that other than the two of them bickering about wearing the same dress to the party, more or less.

5/5 5/55/55/5

I believe the original point was "with standard optimization". You can make just about any crazy concept work with one particular build or enough system mastery.

4/5

well - all of the banned classes in PFS don't pan out for obvious reasons.

A player makes a choice as to how specialized his PC is going to be. Generalists have better lone survival as their build and ability scores are more diverse. Specialists are better at what they do mainly due to ability score and feat focus. PFS tends to encourage martial prowess as combat is easy to judge (he who falls down loses). So the right party is usually some specialists and a few generalists that have superior options versus a particular scenario challenge design. That optimization changes with each scenario. Compare Bid for Alabastrine vs The Chasm of Screams and The Dalsine Affair. Different challenges.

Even with some good rule knowledge some builds are just sub-par. Mainly it is due to class design.

4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I believe the original point was "with standard optimization". You can make just about any crazy concept work with one particular build or enough system mastery.

That seems like the end goal for most experienced players I come across these days. I've heard tales of people who rolled for a random, PFS-legal prestige class from Paths of Prestige and had to build a character around it just to challenge themselves.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Generalists do a lot better as someone's first pfs character, specialists do a lot better when you can read the level, blurb , and party composition to decide if your character will be useful here at all.

1/5

My first character was wearing medium armor and I felt on some rare occasions this alone endangered the mission. During a chase I fell behind far enough that my party had to beat the following encounter without me for example.

Basically if all characters in your party are wearing heavy armor without something to compensate (which will be hard the first few levels), chances are you will at least lose on prestige.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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The common thread in a lot of things that don't pan out much is: depending on other players to be patient.


  • Scouting isn't easy to begin with, but it's only going to be effective if the rest of the party is willing to hang back while you do your solo action. Because otherwise their noise is going to alert monsters, and then you'll be far ahead of them all alone and vulnerable.

    When scouting works though, it can be good to scenario-breaking good. Any encounter built on surprising the players with what's waiting for them can become much easier, and players can cast the ideal buffs.

  • Illusions. I play a heavy-duty illusionist and there's basically two sides to it. One is "brute" illusions that don't really rely on intrigue, plausibility and the rest of the party not getting in the way. Like Invisibility and Mirror Image. Those things work just fine.

    Subtler illusions like Major Image can be really powerful because they can seduce bad guys into making bad decisions, like moving from a good position or entering a bad position; wasting a powerful attack on something unreal; wasting a lot of time chasing the rabbit.

    But to make it work a couple of things are needed. Generally, players who are willing to hang back a bit while the illusions take center stage, because as soon as there's a big barbarian bashing heads in the monster is going to be focusing on that, not the theoretical ninja in the shadows moving into sneak attack position. I've had some of the best moments with illusion during a mission that had gone sideways and three enemy encounters were all lurking close together. With illusions I was able to distract and separate them so the party could fight the encounters one at a time. But part of what made it work was that earlier on we'd spent a lot of juice on a boss fight so everyone was happy to take this one carefully and safely.

    Also, GM cooperation. Some GMs just hate illusions. Think it's cheap to let illusions make a fight easier. Others say they're taking your illusions seriously and letting them work, but every time the monsters take the same decisions they'd have taken if the illusions weren't there so you're left wondering if the GM is insincere or just lacks self-awareness.

  • "Come to us" builds. Whether it's rogues trying to lure enemies into a flank or trying to do the orthodox version of the Reach Cleric where you cast spells on your turn and move back to take AoOs. Neither of those work out if the barbarian keeps moving forward to put pressure on the enemy.

    Both forward pressure and luring backwards into a killzone are valid tactics. Forward pressure is good at focus firing on the most important enemies. Luring backwards tends to be safer and gives enemies fewer chances for full attacks. But if even one party member goes for forward pressure, luring backwards becomes impossible.

2/5

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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

The common thread in a lot of things that don't pan out much is: depending on other players to be patient.

[list]

  • Scouting isn't easy to begin with, but it's only going to be effective if the rest of the party is willing to hang back while you do your solo action. Because otherwise their noise is going to alert monsters, and then you'll be far ahead of them all alone and vulnerable.

  • The biggest challenge with trying to scout is players claiming you haven't got time in the slot.

    Ironically what takes time is people arguing that you haven't got time.

    Really doesn't actually take long - at most a stealth roll, a perception roll and maybe a knowledge check, plus a description the ref needs to give anyway.

    Key difference is getting across to all your aim is scouting, not trying to solo assassinate the whole encounter.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

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    JulianW wrote:


    The biggest challenge with trying to scout is players claiming you haven't got time in the slot.

    It's a lot to keep track of. How far back the rest of the party is staying. Open doors. where you're hiding.

    People try to treat stealth like warcraft semi invisibility and it's not: you need stuff to hide behind. You don't always have that. Whats here, whats there, can i hide here how about there etc...

    Half the monster manual can roflcopter stealth. Rely on hiding in the dark and its more like 90%. If your party is too far back for the monsters to hear, they're too far away to get to you before you're taking a tour of the monsters digestive tract.

    Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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    Grandlounge wrote:
    Dpr builds where all the damage comes from sneak attack. Keep your damage decent and treat sneak attack as a bonus. This is easier now that unrogue is the standard.

    Huh.

    People keep telling me that I couldn't be effective... especially before things changed... but I somehow managed to keep killing things as fast as it was needed throughout my first 14 levels with my chains intact. Very interestig.

    Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ***

    Mekkis wrote:

    I find the two concepts that do not work well are ones that are based on GM interpretation:

    - Enchantment specialists (see the thread about exactly what Charm Person does)
    - Illusion specialists (the definition of 'interact' is also GM dependent).

    While I cannot speak for the illusionists, I can speak for enchantments. Yes, they work, except when they don't. I never focused on charm person... I used it, sure, but there are far better spells... like unnatural lust! Oh, watching groples will never get old.

    Suggestion is a little harder, because some GMs just don't think that anything is reasonable, but dominate person is definitely the bomb.

    Silver Crusade 4/5

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    Was someone besmirching the honor of Golarion's Greatest Naturalist? In my adventuring days I managed to defeat the so called King of the Storval Stairs, not flinch during the unwavering gaze of Eyes of the Ten. As Venture Captain I give the best mission briefings, and have even snuck in a few other top secret missions I'm not allowed to discuss in polite company. My brave fellow band of archers are always more effective with my inspiration and Discordant Voice along with the occasional dimension dooring.

    If you were talking about the other Lem then yes he is a hack and we are not related.

    1/5

    It's worth noting that if someone should go walk down the hall, that if the Barbarian does it, it's likely you will not be scraping pieces of him off the floor on a failed perception check / save. Whereas the friendly rogue may just explode and be dead on bad luck. Scouting ahead, arguably, can be done by anyone with a good Stealth score, the ability to spot traps, and the ability not to die to them. It's the last part where Rogues can fall flat, especially in terms of hps.

    Also, "scouting ahead" can trigger events early without the rest of the party there since it starts when people can see it.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Beckman wrote:

    It's worth noting that if someone should go walk down the hall, that if the Barbarian does it, it's likely you will not be scraping pieces of him off the floor on a failed perception check / save. Whereas the friendly rogue may just explode and be dead on bad luck. Scouting ahead, arguably, can be done by anyone with a good Stealth score, the ability to spot traps, and the ability not to die to them. It's the last part where Rogues can fall flat, especially in terms of hps.

    My Velociraptor Conan, Ruler of Akiton, and his pet druid came out of one of these conversations.

    Scarab Sages 3/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Angel Hunter D wrote:
    This might sound odd, but I've found that the best way to 2WF is to let them come to you. Shoot/throw/buff something turn 1, if they're still alive they should be coming at you so you can full attack. It's not quite as glamorous as pounce, but it makes do.

    "Whats QuisinOrc doing?

    "I'm going to delay the Ghoul comes near me then step up and full attack

    "Bob, whats Ulgar Doing?

    "LEEEEEERROOOOYYY JEEEEEEEENKINS!" charges up.

    Yeah, that happens more often than it should. I even have one friend who I play with regularly who refuses to cooperate because, "charging is strictly the best thing I can do turn 1, so I'll always do that because party tactics don't result in my personal optimal damage dealt."...even when half or more of the party benefits from "come and get me."

    Though, I think he might not be as good at this game as he thinks, he regularly walk into the middle of a sleep AoE when he has fewer HD than the enemies. Also acts like he's never heard of readied actions before.

    Most other players are more cooperative, and new players often don't think of fighting that way, so it's "cool and new"


    Concepts and classes that require membership in an group,cult, or organisation that clearly marks the Society as it's enemy, i.e. Razmiran, Aspis, and just about any faction in Galt. (known to change on a weekly basis)

    1/5 5/5

    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    JulianW wrote:


    The biggest challenge with trying to scout is players claiming you haven't got time in the slot.

    It's a lot to keep track of. How far back the rest of the party is staying. Open doors. where you're hiding.

    People try to treat stealth like warcraft semi invisibility and it's not: you need stuff to hide behind. You don't always have that. Whats here, whats there, can i hide here how about there etc...

    Half the monster manual can roflcopter stealth. Rely on hiding in the dark and its more like 90%. If your party is too far back for the monsters to hear, they're too far away to get to you before you're taking a tour of the monsters digestive tract.

    I'm waiting to see how the dip into Shadowdancer (with U. Rogue) plays out. It's been effective at 5-9...

    Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Actually, the only character builds and concepts that I feel do not pan out in PFS are lone wolves who for background reasons have trouble cooperating. PFS is a team sport. We need to all have reasons to work together and build great teams.

    The other thing that I do not think pans out well most of the time is ultra-specialized builds that only do one thing. If you don't get to do your thing, you're going to have a horrible time.

    NO MATTER WHAT, it's good to contribute to the team. Have something you can do with skills -- even as a non-human sorc, paladin or cleric, have at least one decent skill you can use, whether it is diplomacy, intimidate or a pegged knowledge. Have something you can contribute in combat. Have survival supplies.

    The best Pathfinders are generalists that bring something great to the party!

    Hmm

    3/5 ** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

    Thomas Hutchins wrote:

    Since PFS is random people with random characters it's most peoples hope that people are bringing valuable members. A metric people use is how useful in combat are you. When your entire contribution was giving people a +1 to an attack or save then you're not really doing much to help the team win because a different character could have been dropping an enemy or hindering them to make them easier to kill. So if your supportive character doesn't meet their view of useful it will be seen as a character that is needing to be carried.

    This is why battle bards/clerics are cool. Lay down a party buff and then get to the killing, and why Lem is less cool, lay down the buff and then total defend until fight is over.

    You aren't a really good support character if all you are doing is giving a +1 to an attack or save.

    EDIT:
    Also, battle clerics fail in that once you hit a certain point you have more buffs that you should be casting rather than just one.

    Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

    I think scouting can work, but you have to go quite a bit beyond "I've got a non-negative Stealth and more guts than sense".


    • Having an unreasonably high stealth score. Familiars tend to have a head start in this. Especially the ones smaller than your head. Off the cuff, I'd say you should have at least your own level + 15 on Stealth to even consider scouting, and you probably want something closer to level + 25. What you're aiming for is that most monsters can't even hope to win a stealth check against you even if they roll 20 and you a 1.
    • Being well aware of the distance penalties to perception. Making sure your GM is, too.
    • Knowledge skills that help you recognize things that you should already be running from.
    • Enough perception not to stumble into traps.
    • Blocking your scent (lots of alchemical remedies available).
    • Darkvision is sort of a requirement.
    • Invisibility spell helps a lot too.
    • Being incorporeal or having earth glide/tremorsense gets you past doors. Druids, spiritualists, shadowdancer and anyone with Shadow Projection on the spell list for example.
    • Enough speed, AC and HP to hold out for a couple of rounds if you do get caught.


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    One thing to keep in mind is that combat in PFS rarely takes more than 3 rounds. So if your character needs more than 1 round to buff up and none of those buffs include powerful group buffs you are essentially a waste of space in combat situations. Similarly if you're damage potential is dependent on meelee full attacks you might find yourself lacking on a regular basis.

    The other thing I've been noticing is that particularly in low level scenarios if you go in without a dedicated skill character you will often end up failing at least one important skill check (most likely a knowledge check). I've yet to witness this being a complete disaster however.

    Lastly and sadly if your build requires cooperation or tactical acumen from fellow players in combat forget it. Not only will few players cooperate with you, no you might also be branded as a munchkin who is telling others how to play their character. That's one hell of a way to ruin everyone's fun at the gaming table...

    2/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette

    Terminalmancer wrote:
    Teamwork builds (that don't somehow grant teamwork feats to at least one of your party members).

    Tell that to my friend and I's twin teamwork using brawlers.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Poison Dusk wrote:
    Terminalmancer wrote:
    Teamwork builds (that don't somehow grant teamwork feats to at least one of your party members).
    Tell that to my friend and I's twin teamwork using brawlers.

    The topic is "generally" don't work. Not there's no way to make it work. Having a constant team mate like that is something thats easier to do in a home game but you can't count on it for pfs.

    seeing that name add to the list: poison builds. They're just too expensive for what they do.

    Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

    Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Poison Dusk wrote:
    Terminalmancer wrote:
    Teamwork builds (that don't somehow grant teamwork feats to at least one of your party members).
    Tell that to my friend and I's twin teamwork using brawlers.

    Terminalmancer was meaning making a teamwork heavy build without trying to make sure that you will always, or almost always have someone to help fulfill the requirements of those feats.

    You and your friend obviously try to always play those characters at the same time.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

    Poison Dusk wrote:
    Terminalmancer wrote:
    Teamwork builds (that don't somehow grant teamwork feats to at least one of your party members).
    Tell that to my friend and I's twin teamwork using brawlers.

    How well do they work on their own? The hunter's mammoth companion worked well when the hunter got taken out by a crit. Do your brawlers work well in such cases?

    1/5

    Lau Bannenberg wrote:

      [...]
      What you're aiming for is that most monsters can't even hope to win a stealth check against you even if they roll 20 and you a 1.
      [...]

    Usually winning with a 10 against their 20 should be sufficient. Most circumstances that prevent you from taking 10 won't come up unless you already failed on a previous stealth check.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Lintecarka wrote:


    Usually winning with a 10 against their 20 should be sufficient. Most circumstances that prevent you from taking 10 won't come up unless you already failed on a previous stealth check.

    Expect wild table variation. The idea that you're not in immediate danger when the thing with big sharp pointy teeth is inches away from you is squirrel poo level nutty as far as I'm concerned.

    1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

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    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Lintecarka wrote:


    Usually winning with a 10 against their 20 should be sufficient. Most circumstances that prevent you from taking 10 won't come up unless you already failed on a previous stealth check.

    Expect wild table variation. The idea that you're not in immediate danger when the thing with big sharp pointy teeth is inches away from you is squirrel poo level nutty as far as I'm concerned.

    Oh good a take 10 derail!

    So if I'm stealthing and just stand there what danger am I am? None. Nothing bad would happen if the enemy isn't aware of me. I could hide there in no danger for at least minutes.

    So the idea that being in a place that no one is aware of you thus meaning no one is actively trying to hurt you is immediate danger.
    Skills are meant to allow take 10. If there's no time you'd allow take 10 for stealth and have it be useful then you're to strict.

    cause when do you take 10? When you're afraid of a poor roll and aren't needing a high roll. If you're good at stealth you probably don't need a high roll to succeed, but a poor roll might be enough to give you away.


    Serisan wrote:
    StevenStag25 wrote:
    Shield champion brawler aka Captain America: the Build. If anybody could help me build it, that would be appreciated.

    Funny enough, the geek sudoku mustering of the last scenario I ran included two players with shield champion brawlers. That's not so much an issue of it not working, though - it works fine.

    Yeah, I usually have to dial back my shield champion or risk dominating the table, which I try and avoid.

    Mostly Brawler with a level of Bloodrager. Belt of Mighty Hurling, anything I could find to boost strength and unarmed damage dice (and therefore Close Combat Mastery damage). Power Attack/Deadly Aim of course.

    Biggest boost is the Martial Flexibility ability, though. Nearly any combat feat on tap is a hell of a powerful ability. For ranged either the Vital Strike chain or the Ricochet Toss chain depending on situation. Too many feat combos for melee to list here. I have a spreadsheet to keep track of them all.

    I have to work on bosting her mental defenses, she nearly TPKed a party when she got mind-controlled once.

    -j

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Thomas Hutchins wrote:

    So if I'm stealthing and just stand there what danger am I am? None.

    you're in danger of being eaten. Thats what the big sharp pointy teeth are for.

    You cannot quantum boostrap the ability to take 10 so there's no danger so you can take 10. It's circular logic.

    1/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo

    If the dragon or monster or guards are unaware of me I'm no danger. being in no danger and from a place of cover lets me use stealth. Since I'm using stealth in a safe place I should be able to take 10. As long as I keep being in safe spots and people are unaware of my presence I'm never in any danger.

    Like all the thief movies. They do their routine across all the traps and past guards and they are calm. They know that they are in no danger as long as nobody knows they are there. They "know" that doing an average job will keep them safe.


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    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    It's circular logic.

    Yeah, but so is the notion that you can't take 10 because failing will put you in danger. It effectively means you can never take 10 in any meaningful situation.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Thomas Hutchins wrote:
    If the dragon or monster or guards are unaware of me I'm no danger.

    Awareness is not a settled matter. It's not "the guards are aware of me" or "the guards are not aware of me. It's "the guards might be aware of me.". That might is what creates danger.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

    So if he succeeds on the Stealth check, is he no longer in danger, because the guards aren't aware of him?

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    TOZ wrote:
    So if he succeeds on the Stealth check, is he no longer in danger, because the guards aren't aware of him?

    No.

    While I'm not sure at what interval you need to redo stealth checks if you're sticking around it's soon enough to be immediate.

    Are you going to be eaten?

    Step 1
    Make stealth check Yes---> Not eaten
    Make stealth check no ---> attacked
    Attack hit?
    Yes--->eaten.
    no--> not eaten.

    At step 1 being eaten is a real possibility, hence danger.. Its a real possibility of happening in pretty much zero time , which is soon enough to be immediate.


    I will refrain from associating the logic demonstrated above with American politics for fear of having my off topic post eaten...

    Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

    Rogues that try to get sneak attack via stealth - this is mainly an unseasoned player thing though

    Poison Builds that don't naturally produce poison

    Crit Builds for the most part - at high levels you run into enough immune things its not worth the feat investment

    Trip/Disarm builds always seem to do nothing but extend combats, nearly always that person would have been better off just hitting for damage.

    Dark Archive 1/5

    Michael Eshleman wrote:
    Natural weapons.

    Beg to differ with this, as a generalisation at least. Your experience may be different, and I can certainly imagine ineffective natural weapon builds based off low base attack classes, but on a high STR (or DEX with agile AoMF) character with at least 3/4 BAB and static bonuses to hit you can be much more effective than a manufactured-weapon user.

    5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht

    Douglas Edwards wrote:

    Rogues that try to get sneak attack via stealth - this is mainly an unseasoned player thing though

    Poison Builds that don't naturally produce poison

    Crit Builds for the most part - at high levels you run into enough immune things its not worth the feat investment

    Trip/Disarm builds always seem to do nothing but extend combats, nearly always that person would have been better off just hitting for damage.

    Trip builds do work as soon as they have Greater Trip. Up to that point, it's still great area denial. I don't mind trip builds that much, I'm playing one myself in a Rappan Athuk game. It gives penalties to the tripped and bonuses to the others, but you can still live with it. On the other hand, a friend has a very annoying build that disarms everything, which I find annoys me to no end. Most statted enemies have only one weapon, maybe a backup, so as soon as he's around, enemies can't do anything anymore because they have no weapons left. It removes all of the challenge.

    5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere

    Trip stops working when enemies can fly. Disarm stops working when enemies are casters or use natural attacks. Combat maneuvers in general tend to be too specific and situational (even if the situation is very common) for me to want to see a character built 100% around one to the point where they, say, can't do anything at range.

    1/5

    Thomas Hutchins wrote:
    Since PFS is random people with random characters it's most peoples hope that people are bringing valuable members. A metric people use is how useful in combat are you. When your entire contribution was giving people a +1 to an attack or save then you're not really doing much to help the team win because a different character could have been dropping an enemy or hindering them to make them easier to kill. So if your supportive character doesn't meet their view of useful it will be seen as a character that is needing to be carried.

    I do agree.

    Although I don't need everyone to be a combat monstrosity and just tear the enemies in half, everyone should have an effective combat plan and invest resources into it.

    It's worth noting that weapon damage does not scale very well unless you put an effort into it or are built for it. So your 14 STR guy with a Greataxe at level 2 might have an OK time hitting at +4 with your MW Greataxe, but as the AC scales up your life will be harder and you will have to invest resources in hitting and doing damage (magic weapons, STR boosting stuff, ioun stones) and/or Power Attack.

    So for newer players, if you're looking to contribute and not quite sure how to do that, I'd recommend putting an 18 into DEX, not dumping STR or CON (keep them both at 12-14) and taking all the archery feats that you can.
    Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots

    Buy some a good ADAPTIVE bow, a +Dex item and maybe an ioun stone of +hit (if you have that book) at later levels you can take Boots of Speed, so that you don't have to rely on someone else to give you Haste. ANY 3/4 BAB or better class can pick up a bow, take the feats above and be OK. Sometimes they're significantly better than OK depending on the class.

    Alternately, you can just be a caster, pump your caster stat and select spells which work in combat.

    1/5

    Doctor Drokk wrote:
    Michael Eshleman wrote:
    Natural weapons.

    Beg to differ with this, as a generalisation at least. Your experience may be different, and I can certainly imagine ineffective natural weapon builds based off low base attack classes, but on a high STR (or DEX with agile AoMF) character with at least 3/4 BAB and static bonuses to hit you can be much more effective than a manufactured-weapon user.

    I agree

    Natural Weapons work a whole lot better than manufactured weapon two weapon fighting since you get all primary attacks at full BAB and therefore you usually hit more.

    Some of the best natural weapon fighting comes from Druid, which turns into a lion, then attacks you 6 times on the charge with Haste and initiates a Grapple because they have Grab. While the damage isn't outrageous on a Druid, there's some savage denial when you wrap the enemy caster in lions.

    1/5

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    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    While I'm not sure at what interval you need to redo stealth checks if you're sticking around it's soon enough to be immediate.

    Are you going to be eaten?

    Step 1
    Make stealth check Yes---> Not eaten
    Make stealth check no ---> attacked
    Attack hit?
    Yes--->eaten.
    no--> not eaten.

    At step 1 being eaten is a real possibility, hence danger.. Its a real possibility of happening in pretty much zero time , which is soon enough to be immediate.

    The same logic applies to climbing up a very high wall, which is one one the examples where taking 10 is supposed to work. Basically if the danger only comes up if you fail your skill check it isn't immediate enough to prevent you from taking 10.


    Beckman wrote:
    Doctor Drokk wrote:
    Michael Eshleman wrote:
    Natural weapons.

    Beg to differ with this, as a generalisation at least. Your experience may be different, and I can certainly imagine ineffective natural weapon builds based off low base attack classes, but on a high STR (or DEX with agile AoMF) character with at least 3/4 BAB and static bonuses to hit you can be much more effective than a manufactured-weapon user.

    I agree

    Natural Weapons work a whole lot better than manufactured weapon two weapon fighting since you get all primary attacks at full BAB and therefore you usually hit more.

    Some of the best natural weapon fighting comes from Druid, which turns into a lion, then attacks you 6 times on the charge with Haste and initiates a Grapple because they have Grab. While the damage isn't outrageous on a Druid, there's some savage denial when you wrap the enemy caster in lions.

    I've don a lot of math and am close to 100% sure that the highest melee DPR that can be achieved in PFS will come from natural attacks. Even for non-wildshapers it's soo easy to get 4 primary natural attacks that all apply full STR and all static bonuses.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

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    Lintecarka wrote:


    The same logic applies to climbing up a very high wall, which is one one the examples where taking 10 is supposed to work. Basically if the danger only comes up if you fail your skill check it isn't immediate enough to prevent you from taking 10.

    Climbing a high wall only becomes a danger if you move. If you cling to the side of the cliff you can stand there all day. All week. the mountain remains unchanged and unmoving.

    NPCs are not static scenery. Even when the scenario calls for them to be distracted by playing go fish if you stay there long enough they are going to move around eventually, get a drink, go to the bathroom... walk somewhere your hiding spot doesn't have any cover from, get something out of the barrel you're hiding behind etc.

    2/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette

    TOZ wrote:
    Poison Dusk wrote:
    Terminalmancer wrote:
    Teamwork builds (that don't somehow grant teamwork feats to at least one of your party members).
    Tell that to my friend and I's twin teamwork using brawlers.
    How well do they work on their own? The hunter's mammoth companion worked well when the hunter got taken out by a crit. Do your brawlers work well in such cases?

    As brawler is a pretty good class, they do well on their own. Not as good as when teamed up, of course. We have at level 6 +18 Disarm, +17 Trip, and with a swift action +15 Grapple. When standing together those are higher by +2. Now, I will admit a lot of our success comes from the fact that not only do we always run together in PFS, we almost always have a third player with us. In this case, the third plays a Magic Warrior Skald. So teamwork builds work fine, you just need, well... you know...teamwork.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5

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    Poison Dusk wrote:
    So teamwork builds work fine, you just need, well... you know...teamwork.

    If you have to sit down with the same person every table, the build does not work well in PFS.

    My group has a Raptor Squad, tengu hunters, that have only just hit 3rd after two years due to not playing any games apart from each other.

    Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Lintecarka wrote:


    The same logic applies to climbing up a very high wall, which is one one the examples where taking 10 is supposed to work. Basically if the danger only comes up if you fail your skill check it isn't immediate enough to prevent you from taking 10.

    Climbing a high wall only becomes a danger if you move. If you cling to the side of the cliff you can stand there all day. All week. the mountain remains unchanged and unmoving.

    NPCs are not static scenery. Even when the scenario calls for them to be distracted by playing go fish if you stay there long enough they are going to move around eventually, get a drink, go to the bathroom... walk somewhere your hiding spot doesn't have any cover from, get something out of the barrel you're hiding behind etc.

    I respectfully disagree with you on these points.

    Take 10 sidebar:

    I assume you also would rule that you could take 10 to long jump into a sand pit (during a track and field event, let's say), but a jump of the exact same length that happens to be over a 100' deep pit would require a roll? What if it was a covered pit trap, and the character thinks that it is solid ground. What if the pit was covered by an illusion of solid ground?

    To me, these are all the same reason case -- the player may take 10. Same jump.

    As for stealth, you are making a ruling that you can never take 10 on stealth, because if there is a chance to be observed, this puts you at risk. So, at your table, I could ask to take 10 to stealthy approach and area, and if there is a chance to be detected you will tell me that I cannot take 10? But if there is no chance to be perceived, it would be totally safe, so you are find to take 10.

    Huh.

    The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

    Alex Mack wrote:
    I've don a lot of math and am close to 100% sure that the highest melee DPR that can be achieved in PFS will come from natural attacks.

    Care to give some examples?

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