Maybe "warrior goddess" was a moniker, and not actually what she was? You know, kind of like how Xena was called the "warrior princess" even though she wasn't a royal, but rather a warlord.
Which, again, sucks the interesting right out of Tar's defeat of her.
"Behold this warrior goddess~! She's a CR 15!"
*Any fairly competent full caster ~15th level or higher (lower with better optimization) yawns slowly and summons more powerful entities for a nice, casual breakfast; others to brush his/her teeth; and more to scratch that itch on their back and massage their neck; then dismisses them and summons a horde of even more powerful entities to do what Tar did to Arazni without ever bothering to take the field themselves, and gets more servants to give them a nice lunch in a bath of their choosing.*
The thing is, there really isn't anything impressive about Tar defeating something like a CR 15 herald. It's prestigious at that point only because she's a herald.
He goes from, "Horrifyingly powerful." to "Oh, so he's a full caster." in no time flat.
The other thing, though, is that there are all sorts of great rationalizations for why things "were never changed" or whatever. Those are pretty cool in terms of their thoughtfulness and cleverness.
But at some point, either things were fundamentally retconned, or information was distributed poorly, such that the wrong information was given, and thus any correction... is still a retcon.
There was nothing in that to indicate it's a title instead of a descriptive phrase. Unlike anything you might expect of a special title, it wasn't even capitalized (I went back to check that it wasn't just lost in my rewrite above) - it's just there to describe her to us. The only thing we had was that she was "the warrior-goddess Herald of Aroden" - hence letting us know that she was a warrior-goddess who held the title-position "Herald of Aroden" (whatever that was).
It's a cool way of rationalizing things, but it's definitely not how our game portrayed her when we had a character who was alive (ever so briefly) during that time frame and actually met her, face-to-face.
EDIT: Oh, how I hate a bad internet connection. I started this post when RD had, like, ~32 seconds. It finished posting after ~32 minutes. And now I have to edit it, 'cause I got ninja'd twice, and it's taking forever to add a simple quotes box. Dangit, Century Link. >:I
OkaymyinternetsuckswegetitWHATEVER.
Okay.
New post anyway, to point out, I found this post by James Jacobs on Aroden's personal journey.
Also:
Prince-in-Chains and relative Herald power
Arazni's actual power level - go figure
Anything above CR 30 is a god?
(This is pre-mythic publication, so that might have changed... again.) Nope! Reconfirmed as recently as last Tuesday, this is the new standard by which things are judged!
So there you go - mythic heroes with full divine source (PC race lvl 20/m 10) are about 1 CR away from being demigods and 5 CRs away from being full blown deities!
*BAM* question answered!
We may now go on, at length, off-topic.
Was she pre-corrupted?!
Dang it, getting off topic again...
EDIT: Woot~! All that searching sucked, but it paid off!
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I'm surprised there's been no mention of the serpentfolk god Ydersius in this thread.
Serpent's Skill:The very freshly revived Ydersius is a CR 20 foe with some fairly nasty abilities. The party at that time can put him back in his "headless" state, where he grants serpentfolk spells but is otherwise inactive.But one of the after-campaign plot threads is to wrangle his skull and his headless body into Pharasma's court, and deliberately revive him there.
Where if you can strike him down, Pharasma can immediately judge his soul and end the matter.
So yeah, there's actually a published Paizo adventure where you can kill a true god. He's in a greatly weakened state, but still.
I wonder what the chances are of messing this up so that:
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I'm surprised there's been no mention of the serpentfolk god Ydersius in this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
I wonder what the chances are of messing this up so that:
** spoiler omitted **
Pretty sure Pharasma wouldn't be kewl with that happening again and wouldn't let him leave lol.
As for this CR30 stuff I thought that was common knowledge and this thread was about making gods who would obviously be above CR30.
Whoops could have saved Tacticslion a lot of searching :/
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Whoops could have saved Tacticslion a lot of searching :/
he loves it...
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I think I posted earlier that to be a demigod, you just had to be CR 25+ and have the ability to grant 4 domains and 4 subdomains - a feat achievable by being level 20/mythic 10 with Divine Source III (which is exactly what my character in WotR did in his quest to self-actualize and become a deity.)
Yeah, I don't think there's really any contention that high mythic heroes should be able to tangle with demigods and demon lords.
IIRC, even the Test of the Starstone only makes you a demigod at the start. It just takes several centuries after that to slowly grow beyond demigod status.
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You don't even have to be tier ten, I thought the last divine source pick was for tier nine.
I've been wrong before though...
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You don't even have to be tier ten, I thought the last divine source pick was for tier nine.
I've been wrong before though...
Well, that's true, but since you add 1/2 mythic tiers to your CR, that extra tier gives you an "easy to acquire" CR bump and a nice improvement to your Mythic Immortality that'll make you feel more deity-like.
But yes, technically doable at a "mere" mythic 9 :P
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That's what I thought, it's been a while since I had Mythic Adventures out.
That'll change this spring when I run Wrath Of The Righteous as Suicide Squad. :-)
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I'm surprised there's been no mention of the serpentfolk god Ydersius in this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
I wonder what the chances are of messing this up so that:
** spoiler omitted **
Why would that happen? Ydersius isn't an undead god; he's a living god that refuses to die.
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Yeah, if anyone's seen a head...
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The line between quasi-deity and demi-deity is very thin, especially since a CR 26+ really isn't that much stronger than a CR 25.
I'd say the big actual divider is the ability to obtain and maintain a divine realm - i.e., you can actually have a divinely morphic location that's yours* where the souls of your worshipers congregate as petitioners - and you have the ability to promote your petitioners into exemplars. And you're able to draw power from your realm, as demonstrated in the stat blocks of demon lord, empyreal lords, infernal dukes, etc.
The Great Old Ones are an interesting exemption to this, since they don't have divine realms, don't gather petitioners, etc. Instead, they seem to carry their divine realms in them, as they have at all times the sort of powers that other demigods have only in their realms.
And of course there's demigods like Vildeis, who could have a divine realm and doesn't bother.
A PC with full divine source who reaches CR 26+ is a demigod, but only in name. Until you can get a divine realm, you're really "just" a very strong quasi-deity.
James Jacobs has indicated that that becoming a demigod can involve shedding your class levels entirely and becoming a unique monster.
I.e., Demigod Aroden wasn't a wizard; he was a unique outsider with wizard abilities.
Aside: The Arazni discussion is a little confusing, since we have her actual stat block. She wasn't a CR 15 outsider; she was a L20 wizard with multiple mythic tiers (and divine source). Aroden was still a demigod back at that time, so his "Herald" was a character approaching his own weight class. (IIRC, you can have something similar happen in Wrath of the Righteous - a mythic PC becoming a divine herald, and thus representing a massive trade-up for the deity in question.)
* Being a demigod in Hell comes with the caveat that technically everything you have really belongs to Asmodeus and your layer's archduke, but the boss man/thing will probably only exert his authority over your possessions if you piss him off somehow.
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As far as red from blue.Well, the wavelength of blue ranges from 450-495 nanometers, and red ranges from 620-750 nanometers, so by that range we can say that mythic characters are 125 nanometers of power away from deities.
Problem solved!
I have to applaud this response.
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It's sort of weird that "Go play Exalted" is a response to people who want fighters who can jump real high and punch boulders in half, but not to people who want to kick the crap out of the gods. Like that's the perfect game for people who want to beat up the most powerful beings in existence, in 2e a sufficient number of commoners with mauls can do it.
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If it's one thing i've learned from Iron Gods. If you want a martial character to cause substantial destruction, give them a Chainsaw.
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Not when they were made specifically for combat, evidently. :-)
I understand though, I've been using chainsaws at work for years. :-)
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As for this CR30 stuff I thought that was common knowledge and this thread was about making gods who would obviously be above CR30.
... eeeeeehhhhhh "sort of" but not really.
See, for the longest time, JJ has noted that it's north of CR 36. That much I knew for sure, and I knew were common knowledge. That it had been revised since mythic hasn't come up in any conversation I've had - generally, if it's come up, I mention the 36 number and most people have been all-like, "Yeah, sure, okay." and no one's contradicted me, and I've just soldiered on in ignorance.
But that's really the thing, though - "obviously above 30" isn't really that obvious at all and doesn't really mean much, even in the context of PF deities. After all, if we're talking about creatures "substantially above CR 30" than the answer is, "It's impossible to say, because you give no ceiling, so it's impossible to make any sort of comparisons." That's why we look for things at the lowest CR.
And making sure the exact numbers are known is really informative in and of itself.
(Also, it directly answers the Title, "EXACTLY HOW FAR ARE MYTHIC CHARACTERS FROM ACTUAL DEITIES, IN TERMS OF POWER?" which, you know, no one here had mentioned, yet. XD)
But here's a thing: if you compare the difference between 5 CRs in terms of power, what do you notice?
One of the interesting places we can see this, is in the monster creation chart, which, incidentally, also gives us insight into that 5-CR gap.
CRs 1 v. 5? Damage averages tell us that seven of the 1s will be destroyed (~1-per-round) before they can do the same to the 5, though they can generally save v. a DC with an 11, while the 5'r saves with a 3. CR 1s hit only on a 16, though... not good. The five hits on a 2.
CRs 5 v. 10? It still takes 7 rounds for a group of 5'rs to take on a 10, but the 10 won't be chewing them up as efficiently (that extra 10 hp makes a difference!) though the lower levels still save on an 11, and the higher levels save on a 2. CR 5s hit on a 14, while the CR 10 hits on all but a natural 1.
CRs 10 v. 15? Pretty solidly requires 2 rounds for a 15 to end a 10, about ~5 successful attacks for a group of 10s to end the 15. Lowers save on a 10, while highers save on anything other than 1. Similarly, CR 15s hit pretty well by now - on a 12! - but the CR 15 hits on anything other than a natural 1.
CRs 15 v. 20? It'll take more than 5 successful hits to take down the 20 (which hit on a 12), but still 2 successful hits to take down the 15 (which hit on "anything but 1"). The 20 saves on all but a 1, while the 15 needs a 9 to save.
CRs 20 v. 25? A little more than 4 successful hits (which hit on a 13) to take down the 25, compared to more than 2 successes (which almost auto-hit) to take down the 20. The 25 still saves on all but 1, while the 20s' chances only need an 8... over-all, the power gap seems to be closing.
CRs 25 v. 30? Here is where we finally see the expected power levels of mythic PCs opposed to divine power. Still more than two hits to take down a 25'r (success on a 2), versus a hair over 4 attacks to take down the 30 (success on a 12). The CR 25s save half the time (success on a 10), while the 30s actually have to try now - they have to make a whole 5 in order to save.
That is... interesting indeed. It indicates that, at least incidentally, CR 25 PCs aren't that far off from the actual power of actual deities.
Of course, PCs throw wrenches into this.
As an example, let's look at a group of level 5s vs. a level 10.
Think about what that encounter would look like.
Presuppose the 10'r was optimized. Would his two attacks per round (except for a mage), higher saves, and so on, be easily overcome by the 5'rs from before? Perhaps. But a highly optimized creature that much higher in power would be highly destructive. I mean, 5th level spells v. 5th level characters - not a good place to be for the character. It's still within the realm of possibility, but it's incredibly unlikely.
I mean, a single 10d6 fireball (generally not considered the "optimal" strategy at this level) will do ~35 damage on average, which is about 2/3 of the the hearty 5th level's hp (10+5.5+5.5+5.5+5.5 = 10+11+11 = 32; 3*5 = 15; 32+15=47; 47-35 = 12), and more than that of a mage (6+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 6+7+7 = 20; 2*5 = 10 = 30), leaving them bleeding out on the floor. And the 10th level can put out one of those twice in a round. By 10th, you've got immunity or resistances with proper preparation to most of the things a 5th level can push on you, via items.
So that's a thing that's also worth considering - how much do the individual's personal abilities change the dynamics. But the actual base numbers indicates that the higher you get in CR, the closer you are to your hypothetically "impossible" CRs.
But what does this tell me? That Pathfinder deities are probably (humorously) very roughly CR 36, where JJ's initial guesstimates put god-level-power. Reason being, that's pretty much exactly what you need to entirely dominate creatures ~ CR 25 in power... creatures that can't threaten you directly yet, but who could easily close that gap and threaten you.
Whoops could have saved Tacticslion a lot of searching :/
he loves it...
D-dang it, Steve... >:I
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What if you were some really poorly optimised 20x/10mythic. :)
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>.>
<.<
WELP~!
What if you were some really poorly optimised 20x/10mythic. :)
Level 20 Commoner/Tier 10 Hierophant
All ability scores start at 10 (mental)/11 (physical)
All level-increases and mythic score increases go into Constitution
Divine Surge: Beast Fury
Path Ability 1: Bleed Holy Power
Path Ability 2: Channel Shockwave
Path Ability 3: Contingent Channel Energy
Path Ability 4: Endless Bounty
Path Ability 5: Flexible Counter Spell
Path Ability 6: Insightful Interaction
Path Ability 7: Inverted Spontaneous Casting
Path Ability 8: Mighty Summons
Path Ability 9: Overflowing Grace
Path Ability 10: Tongue of the Land
Mythic Feats
1: Catch Off-Guard
2: Throw Anything
3: Mythic Paragon
4: Dual Path (Champion)
5: Improved Dirty Trick
BAM~!
Now that is a terrifying commoner!
I mean, he sucks in every conceivable way, but terrifying nonetheless! Maybe give him Mythic Presence instead of one of his other abilities to make him actually terrifying, despite not having any ranks in Intimidate~!
WOO~!
(If I traded out a few of his abilities, he might be fun to play in a game some time, maybe...)
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I'm surprised there's been no mention of the serpentfolk god Ydersius in this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
I wonder what the chances are of messing this up so that:
** spoiler omitted **
Why would that happen? Ydersius isn't an undead god; he's a living god that refuses to die.
** spoiler omitted **
I was talking about a plausible (although highly risky) way that he could make the transition to being an Undead deity in the course of making his escape, similar to what Urgathoa did.
>.>
<.<
WELP~!
What if you were some really poorly optimised 20x/10mythic. :)Level 20 Commoner/Tier 10 Hierophant
All ability scores start at 10 (mental)/11 (physical)
All level-increases and mythic score increases go into Constitution
{. . .}
Ned Flanders goes Mythic.
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My understanding with Arazni is she was written into Golarion's history before a "herald" was fully defined. I think it was closer to the transition to Pathfinder ruleset that Paizo decided they wanted every god to have a herald that could be called by a cleric.
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Given that Iomedae used to be Aroden's Herald, which sounds like a downgrade from being a 20th level Paladin (even without Mythic), I've been toying with the idea that Outsiders (including the quasi-divine) who want to become Heralds take a voluntary reduction in rank and power so that they can be Called by a Cleric or similar spellcaster. However, this has to have some compensation to get anyone in their right mind to accept it, so for instance, a Herald that took a downgrade would still be harder to kill permanently than something that didn't need to take a downgrade to become a Herald, even though their Avatar would be just as easy to kill in the short term.
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It happens occasionally, if very rarely, see Iomedae, Arazni, The Herald Of The Ivory Labyrinth, and Tarrasque.
I don't know if you need to downgrade so much as treat it as the special circumstance it is.
Yeah, and there's actually a mythic thing for a herald... although Iomedae actually still doesn't fit that, as she was lawful good, while Aroden was lawful neutral, hence not meshing with the mythic thing.
I think the reduction idea could be a neat alternate thing, though, for home campaigns!
Okay, so... here's an interesting tidbit.
I was just looking at the old 3.0 Deities and Demigods book, and, specifically, at the lesser god Vecna.
One of the very interesting things is that, by the monster power chart, he averages out to line up pretty solidly as a ~CR 30 creature.
Some elements are substantially above CR 30 (like AC and will saves; this required a bit of guesstimation on my part, I admit, but the extrapolation followed the patterns established), and some a bit below (like hit points and low DCs).
Taking it with what is pretty clearly an aberration (the damage dealt on a full attack as somewhere north of CR 12, but not up to CR 13) he averaged at CR 29 (little bit above). I dropped that and redid the calculations and came up with... CR 31 (again, a little bit above).
Taken together, that's an average of CR 30 (a little above, but not enough to round up).
I found that very fascinating.
I suspect that some of his abilities would be able to easily outclass CR 25 mythic heroes, and I'd probably "guess" he's closer to CR 33+ as a result, but his actual "stats" hit him pretty much near ~ CR 30.
The other gods would likely exceed this by a fair margin, but that actually tells you something of where we could be looking for ideas.
Writing more low or mid CR monsters is probably more pragmatic than making official math for gods.
Writing more low or mid CR monsters is probably more pragmatic than making official math for gods.
Between Cthulhu and the Tarrasque there's not really a need for more "aspirational" super-tough antagonists for people to theorycraft around. As long as you have a few of those, you have enough. Maybe one CR 35 thing someday would be appropriate.