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What are the implications of the encounter in wrath of the righteous book 5 with Iomedae?
2. She can either make them feel how she wants (no save), or the writer was suggesting how he expects PCs to feel about it. (not clear)
3. If they take any action against her, regardless of the reason, she shifts their alignment, maims them, slaps them down, and dumps them back on Golarion.
4. She makes it clear, with her Trumpets, that she *CAN* kill them on a whim and they have no real protection from her. (even if she does bring them back)
Can other gods do this, too?
Can Asmodeus pick up a group of adventurers (no save), change their alignments to LE, talk at them for a while, and then send them back out into the world, working for him?
Can he just scoop up L15 adventurers and execute them on the spot?
Can he scoop up his followers before they can be killed?
Can he scoop up troublesome adventurers and drop them off on another planet, far from whatever he has going on?
If no, why not?
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What are the implications of the encounter in wrath of the righteous book 5 with Iomedae?
1. She gates in a a group of characters (no save).
2. She can either make them feel how she wants (no save), or the writer was suggesting how he expects PCs to feel about it. (not clear)
3. If they take any action against her, regardless of the reason, she shifts their alignment, maims them, slaps them down, and dumps them back on Golarion.
4. She makes it clear, with her Trumpets, that she *CAN* kill them on a whim and they have no real protection from her. (even if she does bring them back)Can other gods do this, too?
Can Asmodeus pick up a group of adventurers (no save), change their alignments to LE, talk at them for a while, and then send them back out into the world, working for him?
Can he just scoop up L15 adventurers and execute them on the spot?
Can he scoop up his followers before they can be killed?
Can he scoop up troublesome adventurers and drop them off on another planet, far from whatever he has going on?
If no, why not?
My thoughts on it are this.
No a god can't normally do those things at least not to people who don't worship them. With possibly two answers...
1) MAD ( mutually assured destruction). If Asmodues starts doing this to worshipers of x god...x god will start doing it to his.
2) Your god normally protects you from this. Where this leaves atheist in Golarion...I really have not figured that out yet...though I am toying with a idea that there is a deity level being protecting those who refuse to worship a god...a kind of self-relaince/ self determination deity...
In the AP Iomedae due the extreme circumstance probably asked the other gods the PCs worship for permission...
That is not canon but it is how I would answer that as a GM and in general how gods work in my homebrew worlds.
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"Can't... or won't?"
Dammit Archer!
Uh; can?
I mean via precedent, we know Iomedae can do it; and I am unaware of any reason why every other god would be unable to do the same.
Which of course makes me wonder why they aren't scooping up people all willy-nilly on a regular basis. Evidently it can be done.
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"Can't... or won't?"Dammit Archer!
Uh; can?
I mean via precedent, we know Iomedae can do it; and I am unaware of any reason why every other god would be unable to do the same.
Which of course makes me wonder why they aren't scooping up people all willy-nilly on a regular basis. Evidently it can be done.
The reference was meant to illustrate the point. :)
Asmodeus almost certainly can do so - but if he does so, to the worshipers of his divine rivals, then the divine truce that's implied to exist is broken. And then everyone starts doing it.
As for their own worshipers, my assumption is that it's done only for the most special or important servants - such as the presumably LG PCs of Wrath. There's another deity who's even more notorious for it, though.
John Kretzer hit the points pretty well too. If you're running Wrath for Asmodeans, though... replace Iomedae with Asmodeus. :)
Continuation of Necromantic process on this thread is recommended. Let Fall of the Righteous begin.
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At least they put SPOILERS in their thread title. :)
Oh, crap. my bad. It hadn't occurred to me to put spoilers.
Also; it seems mods took my thread and moved it out of where it was relevant, general setting discussion. I'm not interested in talking about the events of the module themselves, here; I'm looking to hear why the gods in the setting aren't scooping up/messing with the mortals on a constant basis. If a module killed the ruler of Cheliax at the end, would discussing playing in a post-ruler Cheliax be considered a thread about the module? Because I think the answer is clearly no.
Is it seriously nothing more than fear of an arms race, preventing gods from doing this?
So gods *let* their worshippers be killed by the followers of other gods so that those other gods don't protect their own guys?
[Edit] And it seems to have been moved back. Thanks.
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Gods are the ultimate expressions of GM Fiat. So the answer to your questions depends ENTIRELY on the story the GM or author wants to run. There are no rules answers to be found here.
I thought I remembered reading somewhere the gods had limits to acting on Golarion. A non-direct intervention pact or somesuch.
Keep in mind that what goes on in the example you're quoting is clearly presented as a special circumstance, not "buisness as usual" even for Iomedae.
Sure, it came across as a "I don't usually do this, but I *could* do it, whenever.
Which made me wonder why this isn't a regular occurance.
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Those are both story postulates not rules answers. The answers to your questions are in the category of stuff deliberately left for GM's to work with.
They're rules questions (AND) story postulates about the capabilities of the gods in Golarion.
What actually happens in WOTR has absolutely no relation to Golarion's main canon.
Wait. What? Seriously? Adventure Paths are set in their own little universes and have 0 effect on the setting? There is no Golarion "After the events of Second Darkness, Council of Thieves, and Wrath of the Righteous"? Is there any kind of quote or statement to back that up? That sounds ridiculous to me.
Sometimes the answer is simply "because it isn't."
That's a non-answer. If the official answer is just "Because, no reason"; that would be incredibly disappointingly lazy design.
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That IS the baseline assumption, so that APs can't invalidate the main setting book, by, say, wiping out or significantly altering nations.
An AP that actually presumes other APs occurred (like Shattered Star does) will say so in the introduction to the AP.
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That IS the baseline assumption, so that APs can't invalidate the main setting book, by, say, wiping out or significantly altering nations.
How would it invalidate anything? The main setting book is simply set in the baseline time, a date before the events of the APs have occurred; and the setting itself doesn't have an advancing timeline.
I feel its unfortunate that that is the case.
So as far as Golarion is concerned, Wrath of the Righteous never happened; never will happen; and the characters depicted in it (including Iomedae) canonically have neither the personality nor capabilities described therein?
What about creature types printed in APs, Factions, and detailed articles about gods and whatnot? Are those all also non-canon, and limited only to that AP? Like, if in the next AP (in the AP itself), the religion of the church of Keltheald is detailed, is that just fanfiction as far as the rest of the setting is concerned, or is that canon? What if it was in one of those 4-6 page "God" articles?
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That IS the baseline assumption, so that APs can't invalidate the main setting book, by, say, wiping out or significantly altering nations.How would it invalidate anything? The main setting book is simply set in the baseline time, a date before the events of the APs have occurred; and the setting itself doesn't have an advancing timeline.
I feel its unfortunate that that is the case.
So as far as Golarion is concerned, Wrath of the Righteous never happened; never will happen; and the characters depicted in it (including Iomedae) canonically have neither the personality nor capabilities described therein?
What about creature types printed in APs, Factions, and detailed articles about gods and whatnot? Are those all also non-canon, and limited only to that AP? Like, if in the next AP (in the AP itself), the religion of the church of Keltheald is detailed, is that just fanfiction as far as the rest of the setting is concerned, or is that canon? What if it was in one of those 4-6 page "God" articles?
Actually I think not assuming that any AP (or module or novels for that matter) have not happened yet and keeping the world at the base level is the reason why I am still getting and reading Golarion soucebooks. Being a veteran of the FR I know how doing so can make GMS and players feel marginalized. So at in my opinion this was probably the wisest decision Pazio has made regarding Golarion as it allows people to make it their own.
Also only the events and possible outcomes of the APs are not considered canon...what powers the NPCs display, the articles, the monsters, etc. are all considered canon.
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Actually I think not assuming that any AP (or module or novels for that matter) have not happened yet and keeping the world at the base level is the reason why I am still getting and reading Golarion soucebooks. Being a veteran of the FR I know how doing so can make GMS and players feel marginalized. So at in my opinion this was probably the wisest decision Pazio has made regarding Golarion as it allows people to make it their own.
Oh; sure, no I agree with that wholeheartedly. I'm also a big fan of FR, and when I talk to people about it, one of the first things I say is "Pick a campaign starting date at least 5 years before whatever is the year being currently published if you care at all about canon, because otherwise you could go to such and such city; and canonically it was destroyed last week."
I'm not suggesting a constantly marching timeline with everyone playing in the current year is a good idea. It's a bad idea. However, after 5-10 years of modules, and a bunch of novels, and comics are out? Yeah; I'd like a timeline update/update supplement/updated setting book that includes the canonical outcomes of all those things.
Also only the events and possible outcomes of the APs are not considered canon...what powers the NPCs display, the articles, the monsters, etc. are all considered canon.
So if "Currently undetailed Kyonin city" is detailed in an AP, including city districts, factions, major NPCs and their capabilities; all of those things are setting canon? I hope that is the case.
And then/therefore, back to my original question: Gods (such as Iomedae) ARE canonically able to snatch people up (no-save), and kill them with trumpets?
Is there any canonical reason for them not to do so? Or is it as LazarX suggests, that there is no explanation, and the only reason they don't do so is GM fiat?
Actually I think not assuming that any AP (or module or novels for that matter) have not happened yet and keeping the world at the base level is the reason why I am still getting and reading Golarion soucebooks. Being a veteran of the FR I know how doing so can make GMS and players feel marginalized. So at in my opinion this was probably the wisest decision Pazio has made regarding Golarion as it allows people to make it their own.Oh; sure, no I agree with that wholeheartedly. I'm also a big fan of FR, and when I talk to people about it, one of the first things I say is "Pick a campaign starting date at least 5 years before whatever is the year being currently published if you care at all about canon, because otherwise you could go to such and such city; and canonically it was destroyed last week."
I'm not suggesting a constantly marching timeline with everyone playing in the current year is a good idea. It's a bad idea. However, after 5-10 years of modules, and a bunch of novels, and comics are out? Yeah; I'd like a timeline update/update supplement/updated setting book that includes the canonical outcomes of all those things.
Also only the events and possible outcomes of the APs are not considered canon...what powers the NPCs display, the articles, the monsters, etc. are all considered canon.So if "Currently undetailed Kyonin city" is detailed in an AP, including city districts, factions, major NPCs and their capabilities; all of those things are setting canon? I hope that is the case.
And then/therefore, back to my original question: Gods (such as Iomedae) ARE canonically able to snatch people up (no-save), and kill them with trumpets?
Is there any canonical reason for them not to do so? Or is it as LazarX suggests, that there is no explanation, and the only reason they don't do so is GM fiat?
Well eventually they might advance the time line...they have not ruled that out...they have said there is no current plans to do so as of yet.
And I gave two possible reasons why the gods don't do that to just anyone. Is it canon? No...but maybe go to the *Ask James Jacobs* thread and ask him...
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Well, the personality, capabilities, and everything like that in APs are very much a reality. Iomedea doesn't take no guff, and can totally manipulate reality as shown. It's just that these specific events in these APs haven't happened. At least not officially.
I agree with Darkholme.
While I understand that the specific outcomes of of an AP aren't canon (as different groups will have different outcomes) but the general events have to be considered canon-applicable otherwise there's no point in having them in Golarion.
Maybe the events of Jade Regent never happen in my campaign because I never run it. Nevertheless, I have to assume that all the events that could happen fit within the logic of Golarion canon.
So I have to believe, regardless of whether I actually run Wrath of the Righteous for my players or not, that deities can alter players alignments at will.
One thing I can't do is assume that AP's are violating canon; that way lies madness. But having deities arbitrarily changing a person's alignment raises a lot of questions that need clarification. If not, then the whole issue seems to validate all the negative complaints about alignments that people make.
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Where did Iomedae alter a character's alignment? If you're talking about this:
"Mocking Iomedae is a chaotic act, while attacking her
is a chaotic and evil act. Either action immediately affects
a creature’s alignment, and certainly results in the loss of
all class abilities and spellcasting if a character is a divine
spellcaster who worships Iomedae."
That reads as the action itself altering your alignment, not the goddess. If you burn down an orphanage, Iomedae doesn't show up and make you become chaotic evil; you did that yourself. Same here.
Of course... whether you, as the GM, think that's worthy of being considered an alignment violation is your affair. :)
Gods have to be careful and choosy on how they work in the world.
Golarion and its universe are filled with Gods and God-like beings, nations chomping at the bit for conquest with magical engines of war, characters of immense power, and creatures that can wipe out cities. Heck, the sun is full of moon-sized fire elementals and black holes house nightshades the size of planets. Why aren't the lands CONSTANTLY being reshaped by incredibly high powered wizards and cosmic entities of near boundless power?
Mutually Assured Destruction and social/economic conditions keeps them all in check, at the tiers in which they operate.
An adult red dragon can raze a small town in moments, but would expose itself as a threat and become a target for adventuring groups.
Geb doesn't move on the rest of the world for fear of Nex striking him in the back.
Cheliax doesn't march on Andoran lest their peasantry revolt while their forces are away.
Asmodeus doesn't subjugate nations at a whim for fear of a unified strike from the good deities.
Perhaps the only one who has the power for rampant destruction and is unbothered by the threat of mutually assured destruction is the god OF destruction, Rovagug. Given the opportunity to, I'm sure that HE would personally interact with the world on a grand scale.
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Considering that all it takes to involuntarily alter someone's alignment is a cursed helmet, it's pretty reasonable for an actual god to be able to do that to a person.
Though since Kalindlara posted the text - it's very interesting that it's not Iomedae actively screwing with you. Rather it's just a consequence of trying to take up arms against her.
Which also means that stuff should only be happening if your PCs are freaking bonkers enough to outright attack an allied goddess. (Though obviously, the module writer had to account for what happens if some PC goes "I'm gonna mythic vital strike Iomedae!")
So if this stuff happens to a PC, it's his or her own damn fault for being a moron.
Though interesting ramification - extrapolating that to other deities, trying to attack Desna is a lawful & evil act, trying to attack Lamashtu is a lawful & good act, and trying to attack Asmodeus would be a chaotic & good act. Because the very act of trying to fight such an entity in personal combat changes who you are, unless you're already diametrically opposed to them or unless you've got something in place to protect your essence.
Heh. Would trying to attack Pharasma (a rejection of neutrality itself) be a lawful, chaotic, good, AND evil act, and you'd roll randomly to see what the neutral parts of your alignment changed to?
Interesting.
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I believe that Rovagug is the perfect example. (Good catch!)
He didn't let others do his work for him. Not the Rough Beast, oh no. Rovagug himself did the destroying and the crushing...
...and now he's in the Cage, put there by the unified might and guile of the entire pantheon, while Asmodeus whispers in the ears of tyrants and Urgathoa lifts up her worshipers one Daughter at a time. An example for others to learn from.
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Considering that all it takes to involuntarily alter someone's alignment is a cursed helmet, it's pretty reasonable for an actual god to be able to do that to a person.
Though since Kalindlara posted the text - it's very interesting that it's not Iomedae actively screwing with you. Rather it's just a consequence of trying to take up arms against her.
Which also means that stuff should only be happening if your PCs are freaking bonkers enough to outright attack an allied goddess. (Though obviously, the module writer had to account for what happens if some PC goes "I'm gonna mythic vital strike Iomedae!")
So if this stuff happens to a PC, it's his or her own damn fault for being a moron.
Pretty much. The adventure is very obviously written under the assumption that the PCs aren't all Asmodeans on a Hellish crusade.
Though interesting ramification - extrapolating that to other deities, trying to attack Desna is a lawful & evil act, trying to attack Lamashtu is a lawful & good act, and trying to attack Asmodeus would be a chaotic & good act. Because the very act of trying to fight such an entity in personal combat changes who you are, unless you're already diametrically opposed to them or unless you've got something in place to protect your essence.
Heh. Would trying to attack Pharasma (a rejection of neutrality itself) be a lawful, chaotic, good, AND evil act, and you'd roll randomly to see what the neutral parts of your alignment changed to?
Interesting.
I'm kind of curious about this "ramification" too. Might have to wander over to Ask JJ at some point...
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Golarion is in a perpetual quantum state. There are versions in which the APs happened year after year in order of release, and there are versions where only the GM's own homebrew story took place. It's quite an interesting thought experiment that could lead to an even more interesting meta-campaign if several GMs were willing and able to share their own world notes in copious detail and come up with a reason for their PCs to hop to different worlds. Imagine, one group just went through Wrath of the Righteous, only to wake up with the Whispering Tyrant taking over the world, and the events of Wrath never happening.
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Also, a couple of the earliest APs are beginning to flow into the canon.
Grey Maidens are discussed in a few sources (despite not existing until partway through CotCT). ISC uses Sabina Merrin's endgame art, which is a shame, because her Book 1 art is gorgeous.
Plus, the mythicality of drow is getting hard to sustain.
And of course, Thassilon was never this well-known until Jorgenfist was taken.
Mutually Assured Destruction and social/economic conditions keeps them all in check, at the tiers in which they operate.
Eh, that's the excuse forgotten Realms use in 3.0 for why the plethora of epic levels wizards never killed each other. Elminster's line was, "Sure I could kill so-and-so, but they could do the same to me". My first thought when I read that was, "No, he couldn't, you just killed him!"
I don't care for the notion that the gods can't really do anything major because of nuclear detente. It makes the gods seem as if their made of porcelain. Mortals can become gods (Cayden), they can die (Aroden), or become utterly corrupted to the point that their profile changes (Zon-Kuthon). Heck, even a computer AI can become a god. They can be ganged up on and sealed away (Rovagug). None of these things caused the apocalypse.
Perhaps the only one who has the power for rampant destruction and is unbothered by the threat of mutually assured destruction is the god OF destruction, Rovagug. Given the opportunity to, I'm sure that HE would personally interact with the world on a grand scale.
I have trouble believing that any of the Outer Gods or Great Old Ones cares one whit about "Divine balance". Divine balance makes sense in a cosmology where duality is perfectly maintained but Golarion's about as far from being divinely balanced as you can be; even before taking into account Empyreal Lords, First World gods, Devil/Demon Lords etc. etc.
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Mutually Assured Destruction and social/economic conditions keeps them all in check, at the tiers in which they operate.
Eh, that's the excuse forgotten Realms use in 3.0 for why the plethora of epic levels wizards never killed each other. Elminster's line was, "Sure I could kill so-and-so, but they could do the same to me". My first thought when I read that was, "No, he couldn't, you just killed him!"
I call this the 'gods as nations' problem. You end up with ineffectual kings all the way up because the designer doesn't want someone to not have their character feel enfranchised.
The king can't handle the bugbears, he needs you.
Paladine can't do blah, he needs you.
Deities in my opinion stop feeling very 'godly' when they literally can't do much.
I'd buy more of the detente in golarian if the gods were /actively/ holding back Rovagug. Or alternatively, if the deities were holding back to use the world as a testing ground.
Polytheistic systems in fantasy settings tend to devolve into dystopia though because ultimately if the baddies are equal to the goodies you find yourself in a situation where you might live a good life, and get eaten by some guy who got promoted to pit fiend.
You can literally have a bunch of evil adventurers pop into heaven and destroy your beloved's soul, and the worst they get is some angels sicced on them.
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The biggest implication I see is that for years God Aroden ran roughshod over Golarion. God Aroden fought human Tar-Baphon. God Aroden fought Deskari. "Maybe God" Aroden pulled the isle of Kortos and the Starstone out of the sea.* Before that, the most direct intervention was Sarenrae nuking Ninshabur. What implications do we have from those actions?
Sarenrae's obviously gave the opportunity for the Spawn of Rovagug to run rampant, destroying millions of lives over the years.
Aroden's did what? Cause 3 more gods to pop into existence (Starstone)? Arguably, the Worldwound is the result of his actions against Deskari rather than his death. And what did killing Tar-Baphon do? It only caused him to rise as the most powerful mage and lich in Golarion's history, ushering in a prolonged war, destroying another millions of lives.
*Maybe-god because published sources differ on whether the Starstone came up before or after Aroden was a full deity.
So of all the direct divine intervention I can immediately recall, it all resulted in horrific loss of life and more *bad* things happening. Sure I can see some evil deities not thinking that a rift to the Abyss is a bad thing or that a lich king slaughtering his way across Avistan in a war that required every bit of might that the Taldan and Chelish empires could muster are negative things, but for Golarion as a whole, they were.
As far as the Wrath situation, the text quote shows that it wasn't Iomedae doing anything to their alignments, but that their actions were the epitome of those other alignment ideals. The real question is to what level is her snapping up mortals for a 1-on-1 briefing? What sort of *bad things* happen in response?
It gets me thinking a bit more about how and what the deities are, and particularly what kind of divine regulations they have to operate through to prevent things like the Spawn of Rovagug or the Worldwound to spring into place in response to their direct meddling. At what point does just enough meddling become history breaking meddling?
Not sure if this is possible to pull off with the combination of canon and Adventure Paths as written, but my initial inclination for canon versus campaign results would be that each Adventure Path happens, and the player characters or their NPC substitutes managed to accomplish something noteworthy and potentially regionally important, but not as world-changing as they hoped for, although it is likely for them to have accomplished something that prevented a world-changing event in the opposite direction.
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Wait. What? Seriously? Adventure Paths are set in their own little universes and have 0 effect on the setting? There is no Golarion "After the events of Second Darkness, Council of Thieves, and Wrath of the Righteous"? Is there any kind of quote or statement to back that up? That sounds ridiculous to me.
That's exactly the way it works out. The endings of many of the AP's, Shattered Star, Wrath have major world altering events that would make setting guides obsolete. There's simply no way the main canon can accommodate ALL of them.
James Jacobs said it himself. You can find it in his Ask JJ thread. The main Golarion canon is a static base from which all the AP's branch out, each into it's own mini-canon that does not effect either the main canon, nor the other AP's. This means that authors of each AP do not have to reference each and every other AP that came before it, and that it leaves home GM's who want to run their own Golarion the maximum freedom to do so. This includes the PFS Network campaign.
Correct. We don't assume any AP happens in any set particular order, nor do we assume the events of any one AP happen in any one way.
Important for the customer: this allows you to run the APs in ANY ORDER you wish at your table.
Important for Paizo: this means our APs don't self-obsolete every time we publish a new one; you don't have an increasingly expensive buy-in to the line if you want to start playing in Golarion. The ground zero is the same as it was on day zero as it is today.
The PFS campaign is its own thing. It may have thousands of players, but it is NOT world canon for anything other than itself. It's no different than any one person's home game in that regard, save for the fact that it's a massively multiplayer one.
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Also, a couple of the earliest APs are beginning to flow into the canon.
Grey Maidens are discussed in a few sources (despite not existing until partway through CotCT). ISC uses Sabina Merrin's endgame art, which is a shame, because her Book 1 art is gorgeous.
Plus, the mythicality of drow is getting hard to sustain.
And of course, Thassilon was never this well-known until Jorgenfist was taken.
We've been careful to not put Gray Maidens into anything but adventures that specifically happen AFTER Curse of the Crimson Throne so far. There ARE exceptions. The Shattered Star AP, for example, is specifically designed as a sequel to Rise of the Runelords, Crimson Throne, and Shattered Star.
Sometimes we bend those rules when we're illustrating other products and need to pick up art from previous books.
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Aroden was mortal during all those events, including raising the Starstone.
Mythic Realms p63:
For Tar-Baphon’s last step in
becoming a lich beyond compare, he needed to be
killed by a god, and Aroden served this purpose.
Also corraborated in City of Golden Death.
The other two you seem to be right on.
Regardless, it still caused him to raise as the Whispering Tyrant. So 2 major divine interventions = 2 major causes of people death.
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Based on Mythic Realms, there was a stretch where Aroden was "merely" a rank 10 mythic wizard, presumably with all 3 steps of Divine Source (i.e., a quasi-diety).
Hypothetically, he would've had a phase where he gained additional abilities that would've pushed him past CR 25 (much like Baba Yaga, or, presumably, Xanderghul), and at some point he pushed past CR 30 and broke into true godhood.
Aroden roamed Avistan for close to 900 years (or more) before finally leaving to found a realm in Axis, which is when he presumably became a true god.
In my own games, I've running with a sort of "equivalent exchange" program - a god's direct intervention in the prime material plane comes at the price of another god getting to make a counter move of equivalent strength.
And so gods keep their involvements low key, as a way to make sure the involvements of others remain low key. And so Gods don't just jump in; they wait for an invitation.
Once you're in the Outer Planes, it's a bit different - the god ARE kings in the Outer Planes, rulers over ludicrously massive swaths of territory that can be molded to their wills.
Lamashtu rules in the Abyss "a vast region capable of swallowing dozens of worlds," while Asmodeus can claim Hell itself as his divine realm - and so rule a kingdom possibly larger than our solar system. (Though Asmodeus HAS delegated most of his realm to his archdukes...)
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Aroden's path to full deity level followed through all 3 categories.
First he was a quasi deity—a mythic wizard with Divine Source. Eventually he got all 3 steps but even then, at tier 10, he would still be a quasi-deity. At this point he was still on Golarion.
Next he was a demigod. At this point, he transcended his previous class and level and all that and became a unique creature akin to an empyreal lord or demon lord. He would have had a unique stat block to go along with it. He was likely still walking Golarion at this point, but was increasingly turning his attention to the outer planes as well, and spent less and less time on Golarion. I believe he was off-world for all of the Shining Crusade for example, but came back now and then, most recently (and likely for the last time) to defeat Deskari in 4433 AR.
Finally, he became a true deity; at this point is likely when he promised to return in 4606 to Westcrown to usher in the Age of Glory. He likely became a deity of this power shortly after his defeat of Deskari in 4433 AR. At this point, he was focused on his planar realm in the Great Beyond, and presumably building up for his return to Westcrown.
All of the above is still nebulous, of course; we've got a big article about Aroden coming up in Pathfinder #100 that might nail some of these dates down in stone, but no promises.
And as for Xanderghul... he never went that far. If and when we stat him up, Mythic Adventures is all that's needed; he's much less powerful than Baba Yaga or a demigod.
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Huh. For some reason I thought Xanderghul was over CR 25.
Heh. Though saying Xanderghul's not a demigod doesn't rule out him being a quasidiety. (I'm a subscriber to the "Xanderghul IS the Peacock Spirit" theory =P)
But interesting. So at some point, Aroden simply stopped being a mythic wizard, and became something that was CR 26+, and if written up would be an X HD outsider that has "can prepare and casts spells as a 20th level wizard" (among other things) as part of his stat block (sort like Cernunnos and druid spells, or Vildeis and paladin spells).
(Also explains why Baba Yaga rejected the divinity - she wants to remain a human witch, not become some outsider that only looks like a witch when you view it from the right angle.)
Though... 4433? That means it took Aroden a long, long time to make the full transition, then. And he only spent about 200 years as a true god before his death.
Did Cayden or Norgorber actually finish their transitions from demigod to full god before Aroden did?
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Huh. For some reason I thought Xanderghul was over CR 25.
Heh. Though saying Xanderghul's not a demigod doesn't rule out him being a quasidiety. (I'm a subscriber to the "Xanderghul IS the Peacock Spirit" theory =P)
But interesting. So at some point, Aroden simply stopped being a mythic wizard, and became something that was CR 26+, and if written up would be an X HD outsider that has "can prepare and casts spells as a 20th level wizard" (among other things) as part of his stat block (sort like Cernunnos and druid spells, or Vildeis and paladin spells).
(Also explains why Baba Yaga rejected the divinity - she wants to remain a human witch, not become some outsider that only looks like a witch when you view it from the right angle.)
Though... 4433? That means it took Aroden a long, long time to make the full transition, then. And he only spent about 200 years as a true god before his death.
Did Cayden or Norgorber actually finish their transitions from demigod to full god before Aroden did?
Correct, it took him a long time to make the full transition. Cayden, Norgorber, and Iomedae made the transition much faster due to the fact that they had a boost from the Starstone. Aroden created Absalom and raised the Starstone up and enabled the test to happen... and it's likely that that was the event that started him on his mythic path, but he actually never took the test himself. Norgorber was absolutely a full deity long before Aroden. Cayden PROBABLY was. Iomedae, I suspect, didn't become a full deity and part of the core 20 until Aroden died.
We haven't nailed those dates down, but that feels to me to be the right order of things.
AND: It helps to explain why Iomedae directly intervenes in Wrath of the Righteous. She's still a VERY young deity and hasn't learned all her deity lessons yet, perhaps.
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The implication that he was't a full on, 5 domain regular god when TB tried to trap him is an interesting move with prior canon. It makes sense mechanically, though. TB, being a CR24 human wiz 20 / archmage 10 had to go big or go home. Killing a god (or getting killed by a god) was his goal. Quasi probably didn't work, since the CR was still 25 or less. He needed a "real" god, and CR26+ Aroden was available enough to fill that niche. Lure him to Xin-Grafar through his ploy of a renewed Thassilon, spring the Wizard King's Pit, and win no matter the outcome. He gets killed, rezzes with the extra 2 CR's to put him over the top into unique power range, finally surpassing the legacy of the Runelords and cementing himself as one of the most powerful beings to have roamed Golarion.
That brings up another couple of questions. What would have TB accomplished should Wizard King's Pit succeeded on killing Aroden way back in yore? Would the spark of divinity that demigod Aroden had somehow be snatched by the necromantic trap? We knew he was on the Whispering Way, could the Wizard King's Pit have been meant to fail all along, and was just a ruse to get Aroden there?
The other question then becomes the point that Aroden finally ascended to true divinity. He spent thousands of years meddling as a mythic entity then demi-god. After beating down Deskari, if that stays in his demi-god phase in the final timeline, did he finally see that his constant meddling is doing nobody any good, and he needed to take a cue from the other divinities and get hands off?
Another consideration, though, is the utilization of heralds something that sub CR30 demi-gods can do as well? Can unique level divinities like Deskari, Ragathiel, Ahriman and others employ creatures with the herald subtype as well?
This all seems to completely neuter the gods. What would the point of becoming a god even be if you can't take action even within your own spheres of influence without a bunch of other gods smacking you around for it. It seems like the gods just sit back and do nothing which seems counter to the relevance of having gods in the first place.
In Iron Gods when
It kind of turns the idea of the Mythic Journey on its head when gods can't interfere without screwing things up. It's hard to care that Aroden died when anything that he would have done would have just made things worse. In fact, what difference does it make that any god dies (except Pharasma)?
This is partly why not a single player that I've ever GM'd in PF has given one hoot about Aroden's death. It's never going to be explained and has no impact on the players so no one cares; it's just a piece of background fluff that most players have forgotten or pay no attention to even if they remember. That's fairly lackluster for what's supposed to be one of the grand mysteries of the setting.
Also, I'm not seeing "divine balance" anywhere in anyone else's posts - I might be missing it, though. Who are you arguing with there?
No one in particular; rather the notion of how the gods are presented as a whole
I don't think any of the gods care about balance, except maybe Pharasma... maybe. I think they care about doing as much as they can get away with.
Really? From everyone's post it seems to be the entire crux of why the gods do and don't do things. And the vibe I'm getting now is that the gods can't do much of anything except grant spells; and you don't even need to be a full god to do that.
This all seems to completely neuter the gods. What would the point of becoming a god even be if you can't take action even within your own spheres of influence without a bunch of other gods smacking you around for it. It seems like the gods just sit back and do nothing which seems counter to the relevance of having gods in the first place.
You can and in fact ARE an influence, but you have to be SUBTLE about it. You don't go down to the material plane, and throw your divine weight around. You send dreams and portents to those mortals who might be your potential agents, and have them do the dirty work FOR you, just like you did when you were one of them.
Becoming a god is something that many heroes in literature refuse to accept for very good reason. It's the same thing as a starship captain becoming an Admiral... it means trading a ship's bridge for a desk chair.
When Kelemvor and Midnight took on divine mantles, it ultimately cost them everything that made them human, including their love for each other.
I have trouble believing that Norborger (or any god) sits around wistfully looking back on the good ol' days when they were a mythic mortal and could interfere more directly.