Hi. So I'm playing my first campaign this weekend. We are playing the RotRL campaign starting from the beginning at level 1. So far the party will consist of a Ranger, Bloodrager, Wizard, and Rogue. Being that we have no healer, I decided to play a cleric. I want to make a more battle focused cleric that can heal when absolutely needed during battle, but can heal pretty well out of battle as well.
I am not sure how to go about this or what domains to choose or weapon to specialize with. I'm thinking high Str/Wis/Con. And based on domains would like to keep my character on the good side of alignment. I have read that Desna is a good diety, but I don't know about the weapon choice with the starknife. So really any suggestions or help in building this character to not be useless would be great! Also not sure what feats to go with and how to progress.
Thanks in advance!
General question so that folks can offer better advice to you, what books are you able to use to build your character?
A cop out, but helpful suggestion is to take a look at cleric guides, there is a sticky thread in the advice forum that compiles links to many, look for a link to Broken Zenith's page, you will find a massive index of guides there.
Now, some actual advice. You are not required to ever touch your deities favored weapon, so if Desna's domains look awesome, don't despair. Among the simple weapons that you are proficient in the longspear is quite nice, reach weapons are good for clerics, lets you staycose enough to use touch spells on your party, but keeps you back enough to avoid attacks of opportunity. Wearing one or two spiked gauntlets is good with this, if an enemy manages to get too close and atay there you can release the spear with one hand and deck em.
As far as books pretty much just core players guide, advanced players guide and advanced class guide. I'm sure I could talk my DM into something else if I found something I wanted to use. He is pretty easy going and wants us to play what we find fun.
I'll definitely check out the guides. I'm on mobile so it's a bit hard to browse at the moment.
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The Strength Domain is fabulous for a combat cleric (enlarge person + reach weapon + combat reflexes), though I don't think Desna gets that. Gorum's decent, you can still be CG and get to use a greatsword. Ultimately, pretty much any deity and combination of domains can WORK for a combat cleric, so I wouldn't despair if you really want Desna. Any old cleric can grab a few buffs and a longspear and power attack and high strength and start hitting things. The domain choice isn't a big deal (although Strength is pretty cool).
Other thing i'd say is that you really should avoid dumping CHA as a cleric since channeling is fabulous even if you don't want to heal all the time. I've seen people dump CHA in clerics, and they tend to end up regretting it. And don't worry about getting you WIS too high. 16, or even 14 is fine, since you're spells will mostly be healing and buffs. Not dumping it lets you have most STR and CON and avoid dumping CHA. I'd actually avoid dumping anything, if you can, because at 2+ INT skill points per level you don't really want to dump INT either.
Healing out of combat is usually simple -- a wand of cure light wounds is your friend once you can get one. Maybe other wands. You might even consider taking Craft Wand as a feat, and definitely consider Scribe Scroll -- the ability to have a small library of scrolls for emergencies helps a lot, since you make scrolls of the stuff you need rarely, and wands of the stuff you regularly cast every combat.
Definitely agree that longspear is the way to go if you're not into the traditional mace-and-shield.
Have you looked at the oracle class?
Cleric is a somewhat difficult class to make and play. It CAN do pretty much anything, which means people will expect it to do EVERYTHING. Thing is, without rather heavy specialization, you will never even approach the functionality of core abilities of other classes. You will not keep up with a martial without dedicating yourself to doing so. The keys in the design phase are feats, which you WILL be starved for. They are your way to focus, so make them harmonize with your other choices like domain. Resist the temptation to try to excel at many things.
Next part is your actions in combat. Combats are short in PF, three or four rounds is typical. That gives you three or four standard actions, of which the first two are what will count and not just be mopping up. Spending those two on two buffs may be a good thing if your buffs help the entire party, or sharply improve someone else, but putting them on yourself is generally useless. The advice that clerics are uber powerful because they can buff is only given by players of other classes. Once you have tried being a buffer cleric, that reasoning kind of loses its shine.
In short, you have two issues to keep track of: Feats/domains/stats/race/deity, and action economy. One classic build is the reach weapon cleric who wins at action economy by getting more attacks of opportunity. This is extremely feat intensive, though.
When you get to spells, again, many people will claim that you are uber powerful just because you can solve any problem by spells. This ignores the concept of spell preparation. You will gather a general, useful spell selection, and it is vital that you let your choices support the rest of your character build. Find out what you want to do, then do it whole-heartedly. Focus, focus, focus.
If you do, you will have a great character, with both powerful options, and with a bit of preparation, a slew of other possibilities as well.
Oh, and do NOT focus on channeling. It is good at low levels, a little bonus further up, but it does not scale and will not impact fights pretty soon. Certainly do not blow feats on it.
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Check if the ranger is going melee or range. If ranger is melee, you may consider either picking up a reach weapon, and the feat phalanx formation, or picking up a bow(go worship Erastil) and go full archer.Otherwise the front lines might get a little cluttered. Evangelist will help the ranger, rogue and bloodrager do their jobs.
Don't focus on channeling, that really depends on what kind of cleric you are playing. If you're playing a hangover cleric, its all about channeling lol. But usually I don't pull that build out unless there is no controller in the group, which isn't the case in your party, since you have wizard.
Reach cleric AOO fishing only works if your party is willing to cooperate, otherwise you won't get any AOOs as they all leeroy jenkins in.
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A simple yet effective battle cleric:
Human cleric of Iomedae
Str 18 (16+2) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10
Feats: 1- Heavy Armor, Extra Channel; 3- Power Attack
Domains: War(Tactics) and Glory (Heroism)
Swing a longsword and get a quickdraw shield for when things get rough. By level 7-ish try to get a +1 cold iron grayflame longsword, alowing you to punch through most DR on demand.
I've played this very character in Runelords after my first character died. Unfortunately, she didn't make it past level 4 but that was 100% due to roleplay reasons and not because the build is weak (it's not).
Main reason to play a cleric is to channel. At higher levels, with feats and/or gear, you can channel heal as a move and/or swift action. Trying to heal in combat is usually a bad idea. Heals just don't keep up with damage output.
As suggested above, read through the guides on clerics. There's a lot of good info in them.
The main reason to play a cleric is they are a 9th level caster that has decent combat ability. Channeling is something they use so they can heal without having to use their spells. The other reason to use channeling is in a undead focused campaign, but if that is the case you really want to be a cleric of Sarenrae.
Life Oracles actually do a lot better for a channel focused character.
Check if the ranger is going melee or range. If ranger is melee, you may consider either picking up a reach weapon, and the feat phalanx formation, or picking up a bow(go worship Erastil) and go full archer.Otherwise the front lines might get a little cluttered. Evangelist will help the ranger, rogue and bloodrager do their jobs.
The ranger will be ranged. She is all about using a bow. So the only other frontline fighter we will have is the bloodrager. I was hoping to be able to more buff myself and smash heads than being a buffer for the rest of the party. I saw someone mention above the warpriest, which I was actually looking at before I decided on cleric, I am just worried that won't be good enough as the only healer in the group.
Most of the time, the buffed cleric with str 14 will have used the first round of combat to cast that buff spell, so scratch the first such attack. Action economy means buffing in combat is a horrible idea. Also note that the heaviest buffs have a 1 round per level duration.
And before you invest "a measly" two feats in channeling, check carefully if your GM lets people retrain feats. Just a few levels up, you will see those feats as completely wasted. Two feats is a large part of your specialization options, don't waste it on something just because it is a resource pool you have.
Decide what you want to do in combat, and make your cleric accordingly. Buffing and channeling are possibly the weakest of your options.
Clerics are great, and as has been mentioned by others, can do a lot more than heal. Because you can do so much, picking and choosing how far to invest in things that almost always have diminishing returns is a key element of building a good Cleric.
Some key stat knowledge:
Your AC is just not going to keep up, and in a group of 5 you'll be unlikely to get more than one attack of opportunity per round. Dex does other things too, but I suggest leaving this at 10.
Cha 13 is a pre-req for a key Channeling Feat (Selective Channel). And while Channeling is often seen as a less than optimal action, its a resource pool you have. A measly 13 Cha (a buy cost of only 3 Ability point with most races) and two Feats allows to do this in combat as a Move Action. This is great in terms of action economy and resource usage.
Str: The difference between Str 14 and Str 16 is +1 to hit and +1 to damage from a 2 Handed Weapon, if you can cast an extra spell of almost any level, you will benefit your group more. Str 14 with Divine Favour/Power up will give you solid output for a buy cost of only 5.
Level 3 comparison between Str 18 and Str 14 with a Longspear with Divine Favour and Power Attack active:
+6 doing D6+10 or +4 doing D6+7As mentioned in all the guides, going first is very important, so advise Improved Initiative as your first Feat, Toughness is also very useful.
Would it be worth taking heavy armor proficiency to up my AC? Or is this something that wouldn't be worth the cost of a feat?
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Nah, a breastplate is sufficient. For now, just get any one handed weapon that you can whack people up two handed. Always carry a longspear (reach weapon) with you so that if you need the additional reach you can.
If you want a little more ac use a light shield. Don't use a heavy shield because you need a free hand for casting.
Selective channel for healing is not a bad idea, but don't bother take any other channel feats if you are a melee type cleric.
Really, Conjoy... That is not a good recipe. By the time you take the two channeling feats, they are already dead weight.
Look at it this way: A fighter has a few advantages over you: 1 hp per level, Heavy Armor Prof, Martial Weapon Prof, and a bonus fighter feat every two levels. If you spend your feats to compensate for this by taking Toughness and such, the fighter is going to be ahead by tons of feats regarding the things you spend your time in combat doing. You are not even going to match up to the arguably weakest class in what you dedicate yourself to doing. Sure, you will have some spells, and channels, but it isn't going to change much.
What you need to do is find a niche that does better than someone. One thing you really should consider is beefing up your save DC for spells that require a save. The cleric spell list is great for save or suck. Up your Wisdom and put feats in Spell Focus. Your spells are definitely a resource pool that is worth investing in, but without a decent save DC, you will not get them through. Many of these spells are also touch range, meaning your defenses need to measure up, but your to hit is pretty much an afterthought. Further refined, you will get the Bad touch cleric described in various places.
You could also go for summoning. This is feat intensive, but gets you a huge advantage for your party as soon as you can summon as a std action.
Blaster clerics are pretty much strictly inferior to a wizard, so I would say play a wizard instead.
I love clerics. Here are my recommendations:
Race: human
Stats: no dumps; Str>Wis>Con>Dex>Cha>Int
Domains: any, really
Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes (min 12 Dex!!), Power Attack, Sacred Summons (hopefully with celestial template allowed), Furious Focus, etc. (And close to that order)
FCB: skill if Int is dumped, hp otherwise
Picket fence for your allies, standard action summon at level 5+, heal when necessary.
Sacred Summons quite clearly doesn't work with the template creatures (celestial eagle etc), because they do not have the alignment subtype.
If you're only worried about HP heal, warpriest is great! Have the party use some gold to buy a wand of cure light wounds, and now you have plenty of healing. No spells used.
HP healing is best done with wands out of combat.
HP healing in combat better be an emergency action and rarely needed.
If you're only worried about HP heal, warpriest is great! Have the party use some gold to buy a wand of cure light wounds, and now you have plenty of healing. No spells used.
HP healing is best done with wands out of combat.
HP healing in combat better be an emergency action and rarely needed.
I think that is why I may be hesitant to go for warpriest. that would mean we have no one to heal status effects. Is this a huge deal? Will it make things way more difficult? Or will it just be kind of annoying?
Sacred Summons quite clearly doesn't work with the template creatures (celestial eagle etc), because they do not have the alignment subtype.
Hence pointing to GM override. :)
You could also go for summoning. This is feat intensive, but gets you a huge advantage for your party as soon as you can summon as a std action.
Blaster clerics are pretty much strictly inferior to a wizard, so I would say play a wizard instead.
Can you explain the summoning thing a bit? Not something I have looked into yet. How exactly does this work? And besides summoning something and having it fight for me, what else do I do during combat?
The reach summoning cleric is essentially designed to use the Sacred Summons feat to summon as a standard action (calling for intensive alignment decisions, RAW) and using opportunity attacks to maximize action economy. And that's just Round 1, typically. Round 2 and later call for attacking or casting (*maybe*, worst-case, channeling) and using team maneuvering to boost your AoO output. In the strictest sense, Strength and Travel domains are close to ideal for that -- boosted threatened area off enlarge effects and greater movement speed.
I think that is why I may be hesitant to go for warpriest. that would mean we have no one to heal status effects. Is this a huge deal? Will it make things way more difficult? Or will it just be kind of annoying?If you're only worried about HP heal, warpriest is great! Have the party use some gold to buy a wand of cure light wounds, and now you have plenty of healing. No spells used.
HP healing is best done with wands out of combat.
HP healing in combat better be an emergency action and rarely needed.
You get lesser restoration the same level an Oracle does.
Normal restoration you get 2 levels later than an Oracle, but you can use scrolls of them as soon as lv7 without needing to make a check, just like a cleric. And since restoration doesn't have anything that scales off of levels, scrolls are the way to go anyways to not use up spell slots in a day.
Clerics are probably my favourite class. Whenever I start a new character, I usually try to see if a Cleric could fit that bill.
A Cleric is so much more than just an in-combat bandaid. Yes, the Cleric has status removal and Cure spells, but that doesn't pigeonhole you as the de facto healer. Warpriests get a few melee-goodies, but I totally understand not wanting to play it for the delayed spell progression.
Yes, a lot of Cleric spells can be done with scrolls, potions and wands, but I think that's oversimplifying things. Wands and scrolls need to be drawn, a Cleric can have them at the ready at all times. And yes, general consensus is that offense is better than defense and healing in combat isn't efficient. I agree, you can't 100% negate someone's damage, but you can extend someone's lease on life. And sometimes crap hits the fan and someone needs emergency healing. The Cleric is there for you. And sometimes, items aren't always available. I went through most of the first book of Shattered Star with my Oracle being the only source of healing, as we simply didn't have the money for scrolls or potions. On the other hand, don't stuff all your spell slots with those status removal spells unless you're certain you're going to need them. Clerics have lots of spells they want to use and only so many spell slots. For the first few levels, just fill them with whatever you like. Once you have a lot of spell slots, leave one open per spell level to prep when you need them.
As for builds, all Clerics are proficient with longspears, and they're already pretty good weapons. As mentioned before, Gorum has greatswords and Sarenrae has a scimitar. Depending on how much melee you want to do, you can slack a bit on Wisdom. It's great to have for bonus spells and save DCs, but if you'd rather be in melee you're too busy with hacking at things. Similarly, Charisma can almost be a dumpstat, depending on how much you want to channel. It's a nice bit of extra healing, but I have a Cleric with 10 Charisma (and admittedly relatively short adventuring days) and I rarely need my third channel of the day. Boosting CON is nice, but overinvesting in it at the expense of other stats is a waste. I find 14 CON more than enough for all my builds. DEX is about the same, I feel. Depending on how much you want to commit to melee and your point-buy, I'd go with a 16/14/14/7/14/9 for 20-point buy, or a 14/14/14/7/14/9 stat spread. Maybe switch the 16 with a 14 if you want to cast more. Or lower the 16 to a 14 if you want more CHA. You're in a party of 5 with a pretty old adventure. I'm sure a starting STR of 16, maybe even 14, will be okay. Newer adventure paths have upped the difficulty, but this one is a bit on the easy side, I've heard.
Domains: Gorum has nice domains if you want bonuses on damage. Desna indeed has a few good domains for movement and rerolls, both of which are really sweet.
I'm personally not a big fan of long buffing routines in combat. Most combats are over in 3-4 rounds, having to spend 2 rounds of it powering up means you're missing half of the fight. Prioritise attacking over buffing, unless you're either in a tight spot, or can't reach the enemy.
I'm personally not a big fan of long buffing routines in combat. Most combats are over in 3-4 rounds, having to spend 2 rounds of it powering up means you're missing half of the fight. Prioritise attacking over buffing, unless you're either in a tight spot, or can't reach the enemy.
I think that is one of my issues and why I kind of wanted to go warpriest originally. I want to be in combat, I want to be killing things lol. A lot of what I have read talks about the cleric buffs and making combat more manageable, but if that is going to take a couple rounds, or even 1 round when I could instead be in melee range and hitting stuff, why waste the round with buffs? Making a decision on a character is way more difficult in this game than I thought it would be...
Sounds like you'd enjoy warpriest AND it covers your desire for healing and status removal. I don't see a compelling argument for you to be a cleric over warpriest. And when you go warpriest play an arsenal chaplain, unless you have specific blessings you really want.
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So your looking at Desna as your deity and no one suggested Way of the shooting star, it's a divine fighting style [so you have to be CG and follow desna to take it] that lets you use CHA as for attacks and damage rolls when using a starknife. With a high CHA you can take selective channel and alternate between slashing dudes with your pointy star and channeling.
Also since the starknife has a range you can throw it [still using your CHA] when you need a ranged attack.
Sounds like you'd enjoy warpriest AND it covers your desire for healing and status removal. I don't see a compelling argument for you to be a cleric over warpriest. And when you go warpriest play an arsenal chaplain, unless you have specific blessings you really want.
Ya know, I think you're right. I just have no idea how to build this now lol. I think I will make a backup character sheet of a cleric just in case I die and need a replacement that'll be better at keeping us alive.
which races are allowed? and how are you doing stats? are traits allowed? can you take the extra trait feat if not? And we can get you a nice outline for a warpriest
In my experience new players tend to struggle with prepared caster classes (i.e. you have to anticipate before the start of the day which spells you're going to use) and would strongly recommend oracles over clerics or sorcerers over wizards for newbies.
Even the fact that spontaneous casters know fewer spells makes them easier for new players to handle. At 4th level you have to worry about the 11 spells you happen to know, not the 100+ spells the cleric can prepare.
Warpriest, even though a prepared caster, would be a fine pick too just because "spellcasting" isn't as big a part of what they do compared to the cleric. Warpriest is basically fervor to self-buff then go and hit people, casting utility spells as they're needed.
If the ranger knows what she's doing, you shouldn't be running into suprises all that often beacause she'll have eveything scouted. Being able to cast a buff or two before combat makes a big difference.
Attack in the first round of combat also is not always the best choice. Say you start about 30 ft from the enemy and act first. Spending your first turn to close the distance to attack him once is a bad idea because it will enable him to full-attack you. In these situations, spending your first round casting is not too bad.
How exactly do you want to melee? Two-Handed weapon? Use a shield? With bloodrager, rogue and ranger (all very offensive) playing a defensive character with high AC (i.e. using a shield) who can hold the line if need be, might not be the worst idea. Maybe even a Holy Vindicator?
Channel for healing is ok-ish, but will become mostly useless by mid-level. For a melee-cleric, I'd look for other uses of my channel ability like the Holy Vindicator's Shield ability or a Grayflame Weapon.
A number of people have suggested Summoning but I don't think this is a good choice for a new player - Summoning requires a serious investment in preparation and in particular Sacred Summons requires you to track the alignment sub-type.
Similarly, I would not suggest Save or Sucks to a new player, they are not as fun to play with (see god wizard guide) and don't synergise with the combat build he asked about.
Channeling, while it has a diminishing returns, does have good potential for action economy, and resource usage. Whichever way you cut it, in the group he is in, if an enemy spell caster drops a Fireball on the group, they will be hoping he can land a Channel or equivalent. For two Feats (20% of his allotment) he can take a very valuable standard action as a move.
On the worth of Channeling: you gain channeling at half the rate at which a lot of blast spells gain damage dice, and most of those blast spells you save for half...
Agreed that summoning takes a good bit of work and system knowledge. Save or suck, however, is a core ability of clerics that complements very well with their reasonable defense. Ignoring that is silly.
Again with the channeling, huh? Well, at level eight, it gets you 4d6, for an average of 14 points. Even given to several people, it is not enough to do much. Some sixty points to one character is big. Fifteen to four different characters is pretty much negligible, since melee hits at level eight routinely do far more than that. I repeat, do not take channeling feats, and focus on getting your spells to help your strategy. Don't be a weak fighter with channeling.
which races are allowed? and how are you doing stats? are traits allowed? can you take the extra trait feat if not? And we can get you a nice outline for a warpriest
Being that we are all pretty much new players in our game, the GM, who has a lot of experience with d&d, is being really generous with stats. We are not using a buy system. Instead we are rolling for stats, 5d6 and dropping the lowest 2. If we roll a state under 12 we can reroll it.
I am not sure if we are allowed to use traits or not. I have to check on that one. As far as races he's pretty open as long as we have the material available, whether in a book or online resources that we can reference at the table via a tablet.