Entangle (1) - not a blast but pins people down nicely
Call Lightning (3) - slow damage over time
Ice Storm (4) - weak blast but can carry riders like rime spell & creates difficult terrain
Insect Plague (5) - immobile swarms
Siege Scatter (5) - low base damage, but on a failed save knocks creatures prone & out of the 50' radius area with a bit more damage
Sunburst (8) - blind & damage
Clashing Rocks (9) - damage, knocks prone & buries target
& of course any medium range offense spell with the Reach Spell metamagic feat.
Call lighting and it's upgrade + air elemental or any other form with a high fly speed makes you able to snipe or kite enemies with little risk to self. It is very slow going, but can be great to draw enemies out or to help funnel them to your party.
A druid can be some of the most annoying artillery in the game, not amazing damage but who'd expert that the lighting raining down on you comes from the bird hundreds of feet above.
Okay, so I admit I have not taken the time to read all the posts under this discussion, so I apologize if I am repeating what others may have already said.
To OP, I think you're judging a book without delving into its fantastic and powerful pages.
In my opinion, the druid is one of THE best classes in the game, capable of filling multiple roles WELL and even SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Feats that will help make you unstoppable:
Wild Speech
Planar Wild Shape
Natural Spell
Items:
Stoneplate (Need Heavy Armor Prof)
OR Rhino Hide Armor (for your Pounce you should have while shifted as a tiger)
If you pick up these feats and pick the right Wildshape forms you will be so very powerful. You'll be able to melee quite well AND cast any one of your spells as necessary. Tiger is a nice choice, and the Deinonychus before that.
When you can shift into elementals, pick up the Air Elemental and Trolololol away with the Whirlwind ability, or become a plant with uber grab abilities, etc. CASTING ALL THE WHILE.
Spell selection should be self buffs, battlefield control that doesn't require saves, and buffs that last for minutes or hours per level. Spells that benefit your companion are great picks too.
I'll try to post some specifics about builds ans spell selection tomorrow. I assure you, the druid is one of the most powerful classes in Pathfinder. You will RARELY find yourself in a situation you cannot fix.
I played a druid in Second Darkness AP and nearly soloed the final boss encounter as well as a number of counters along the way.
Edit/PS:
You don't NEED the wizard or cleric spells because you had great ones that work well with the druid class. Wizards need fancy spells to get by, whereas the druid shifts into amazing creatures that are even better than the wizard spells ni some cases and last for much longer. Did I mention you can cast spells while shifted? What's more awesome that being able to cast any spell you need while going toe-to-toe with a pair of ogres while your animal companion Roc tears apart the caster? :)
Im going to try avoiding going back to that argument again buts its still pretty much that I like the Cleric's divine spell list better as there just arent many unqie Druid spells worth it.
I dont expect the class to be fully a Cleric with Miracle, True Resurrection, and Greater Restoration.
Some of the major spells that I would really want for a Druid would be Raise Dead, Restoration, Fly, and some long range attack spell(s).
1 Raise Dead is an important part of any party. Anyone can heal with potions or wands of Cure spells. Raise Dead is invaluable. It needs the next spell to fully work though.
2 I could just focus on Restoration being the minimum spell necessary to restore negative levels and stat drain, which is an important factor to any healing character but especially to make resurrection spells fully effective.
3 Fly seems redundant, right? Well not all the Druids Forms can fly making it a split decision of picking a Flying form, probably with middle to low effectiveness, or a high power ground form like a Dire Tiger or Giant Octopus.
Restoration and resurrection are possibly the most crucial area Druid is lacking. I looked up Reincarnate and its worse, but without Restoration to function as its other half it might be better to actually make a new character as otherwise youre waiting on a Cleric to fix the resurrection.
You can get fly as a domain spell (eagle for one has it). Restoration might be tougher to acquire.
You have to wait until 6th level spells, but Cyclic Reincarnation is one of the best resurrections in the whole game.
Druids aren't really meant to be healers in that way as for flying, you could cast Air Walk, which I think is actually better than fly for a tiger because I have a feeling you can't charge (and thus pounce) whilst flying but Air Walk functions as walking/running on air.
Might be wrong about that though.
May I ask why do you think you absolutely need 400+ range spells?
not much is fast enough to run away that quick and sniping things from that distance is incredibly boring for anyone in the party that doesn't do 400+ range, which is most classes.
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Going to continue recommending Samsaran. You seem really committed to having a few particular Cleric spells, and that's Samsaran's deal. With Wis of 18, you get any five spells. Restoration, Miracle, Breath of Life, and two more of your choosing. One more of you go with a more conservative 16 Wis.
Alternatively, for less than the cost of Raise Dead, you can use Reincarnate and two scrolls of Restoration. Cyclic Reincarnattion and two scrolls is cheaper than Resurrection. None of the stat change risks of Reincarnate, better coverage, and it still restores youth. You only need a +7 in UMD to pull it off (50% per day, much better with a slightly higher mod).
May I ask why do you think you absolutely need 400+ range spells?
not much is fast enough to run away that quick and sniping things from that distance is incredibly boring for anyone in the party that doesn't do 400+ range, which is most classes.
It's useful for sieges, ship-to-ship combat, and not getting longbow'd/Aerokinticist'd to death. Generally I'm pretty happy with 100+ ft. (since maps almost never cover more than that space), but there are uses to long-range effects.
You can get fly as a domain spell (eagle for one has it). Restoration might be tougher to acquire.
The cheesy, but effective, way to get restoration is to take the Experimental Spellcaster feat so you can cast wordspells with the purify effect word (which is on the druid list) so you can nuke negative levels without diamond dust.
This is, however, super cheesy.
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You can get fly as a domain spell (eagle for one has it). Restoration might be tougher to acquire.The cheesy, but effective, way to get restoration is to take the Experimental Spellcaster feat so you can cast wordspells with the purify effect word (which is on the druid list) so you can nuke negative levels without diamond dust.
This is, however, super cheesy.
And requires the words of power subsystem to be in place, and no one uses the words of power subsystem.
Long range attacks are versatile in allowing you to weaken an enemy before you get into closer range or preventing any close combat at all.
What use is a Berserker frothing at the mouth if you arent in melee range?
Restoration(not Lesser) and resurrection spells(not specifically Resurrection) are must-have for a party after a certain point. Theyre very useful generally, but just encounter Vampires and youll have an idea why they are necessary.
Lightning Storm is passable I guess. It has flaws from its damage type, no area, damage over time, requires concentration as a standard action every turn, and doesnt scale up in damage. So its awfully situational.
Call Lightning has the same problems, but is lower level, so less powerful, and a quarter(!) the range. For both I think the only way you could use them is in a Flying Form and you would probably need that 400+ range so you dont get shot.
Explosion of Rot is quite good with a small area, scaling damage, and no elemental type so works on alot. Short range is its serious flaw
Note: thanks for reminding me about scrolls. 700g Restoration scroll is far cheaper than the 21,000g wand I was thinking of. Still need a Cleric to actually make said scroll/wands. SO its a Catch-22 situation.
Restoration scrolls are either 800 or 1700 gp, depending on whether they can remove permanent negative levels. You have to add in the material component cost.
If you're serious in trying to find you best class rather than trolling you need to rank your requirements in order of importance and note which can qualify on a spectrum (good to bad) or simply binary (yes/no). If a requirement like restoration is both high ranking and binary you quickly simplify your allowed classes. The only ones that do restoration are the non-nature divine classes, alchemist, mesmerist, and spiritualist. But each of those will fail other binary tests and/or be bad on some spectrums. If you have too many "must haves" binary priorities we can quickly determine whether your desires are feasible or not.
Long range attacks are versatile in allowing you to weaken an enemy before you get into closer range or preventing any close combat at all.
It's a rather unneccesary feature because in this game sight distance rarely goes that far: you're usually in a dungeon, a forest, hills, mountains, or what have you. Moreso, the DM's table is only so big and tracking combat with distances rather than minis is a pain in the rear.
Note: thanks for reminding me about scrolls. 700g Restoration scroll is far cheaper than the 12,000g wand I was thinking of. Still need a Cleric to actually make said scroll/wands. SO its a Catch-22 situation.
The cleric doesn't need to be in the party. You stop in town make a donation to the church wait a few days and leave with the scrolls. You are in an interactive world, not a video game, you can do that sort of thing.
I will ask you, how many times have you been in situations where a Cleric and/or Wizard have been necessary?
Ive been in plenty. There are so many useful spells that just having one may be worth an acrhetype for another class.
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For example giving a Rogue Invisibility and/or Greater Invisibility. The Ninja alternate class can have those at ki abilities making it better at stealth in and out of combat. Since the Rogue/ninja signature ability Sneak Attack is dependent on circumstance like that one or both of those spells are extremely useful.
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Im not going to go crazy that the Druid spell list isnt 100% of the Cleric spell list, but Ive found restoration to be an absolutely necessary spell. Maybe I could trade another spell for Restoration?
AT the least I dont think preventing Druids from learning Restoration is fair and balanced. Having different methods of resurrection like Cyclic Reincarnation Vs Raise Dead is different but still usable. Restoration is important for both to make the character resurrected actually be "healed" to 100% potential and of course to cure statistical and level drain.
So without that one single ability..You would still have to have a Cleric to cast the spell or make the items so others can.
So I either need a CLeric or have to be one myself. Hey If I can get an Oracle to change its casting stat to Intelligence that would be a massive problem solved. I already made it clear that I like the Sorcerer/Oracle casting style better.
That is how vital Restoration is as a spell to a party.
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I will ask you, how many times have you been in situations where a Cleric and/or Wizard have been necessary?
Never. There;s enough ways to do things in this game that no one class is neccesary.
For example giving a Rogue Invisibility and/or Greater Invisibility.
UMD Wand *tap*
So I either need a CLeric or have to be one myself.
Yes.. and?
If you're looking for a character that has all upsides and no downsides at all to the requirement that no other class is allowed to even exist in the world as an npc you're in the wrong game.
You have a LOT of really, really nutty random, requirements that you're looking for here. If you think the druid is underpowered or not versatile you're nuttier than the special brownies they hand out at the moots.
Not really. In most games on a scale of 1 to 10 I balanced out things pretty well but made sure to learn towards offense.
Resurrection spells and Restoration are still old must-haves from times I fought Vampires that decimated parties.
I still go play Baldur's Gate to remind me of how of 2nd edition D&D played.
Well, if YOU MUST-HAVE restoration, then you're limited to the list of classes that have access to restoration. And druid isn't in that club.
Cyclic Reincarnation does everything Reincarnation does (cheaper, but still with two negative levels), so that one is fine. Restoration is so rarely needed that scrolls cover it just fine, especially with money you save. If you can get the material components, the scrolls should be available.
Samsaran gets you the spells.
Otherwise you've over-constrained the problem, and will need to wait for the Healer's Handbook.
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Well, if YOU MUST-HAVE restoration, then you're limited to the list of classes that have access to restoration. And druid isn't in that club.
Anyone can be in that club they just need to pay more cover charge. Just get a scroll/wand of restoration) and someone in the party that can use it.
How many people are you trying to replace in the party? You are adventuring with a party right? Some of them can do SOMETHING?
Well, if YOU MUST-HAVE restoration, then you're limited to the list of classes that have access to restoration. And druid isn't in that club.Anyone can be in that club they just need to pay more cover charge. Just get a scroll/wand of restoration) and someone in the party that can use it.
How many people are you trying to replace in the party? You are adventuring with a party right? Some of them can do SOMETHING?
Only need a +7 to UMD it. You try until you get a 1, and that's it for the day. If you need a 20, then you have a 50/50 chance of getting that first. A +9 gives you a 75% chance per day.
Well I need a Sorcerer/Wizard as my right hand, and a Cleric/Oracle as my left. Druid is my third arm. So the other hands/arms/member of my party to fulfil the role of frontline and skills.
I remember when the Paladin was seen as more of an asset as it was a strong warrior and fulfilled Charisma duties.
Yeah Im better at making my own team then sticking to one class and hoping humans can cover everything I cannot.
Yeah Im better at making my own team then sticking to one class and hoping humans can cover everything I cannot.
so you're playing by yourself...
As to the idea of a front line, it really doesn't exist.
Baring some builds there's very little you can do to stop an enemy from walking around or over you and hitting the squishies (tanky druid with a tanky companion is one of the better counters for that), and without some VERY specific builds almost nothing you can do to stop them from hitting your other melee (grappling animal companion solves that) . The idea of a front line hasn't really worked since 3.0.
And requires the words of power subsystem to be in place, and no one uses the words of power subsystem.You can get fly as a domain spell (eagle for one has it). Restoration might be tougher to acquire.The cheesy, but effective, way to get restoration is to take the Experimental Spellcaster feat so you can cast wordspells with the purify effect word (which is on the druid list) so you can nuke negative levels without diamond dust.
This is, however, super cheesy.
It would be better named Words of Cheese.
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I once theorycrafted a Samsaran Druid that was a better healer than a Cleric. They were VMC Cleric so they had spontaneous heals, and they picked up the spell restoration. Reincarnate is cheaper and easily covered by restoration and also works on those that died of old age.
Way cheaper than Raise Dead.
For the the permanent negative level removal function of restoration, 3 vials of Dragon's blood is cheaper (60 per vial = 180 gp) than even the material component of the spell.
For the the permanent negative level removal function of restoration, 3 vials of Dragon's blood is cheaper (60 per vial = 180 gp) than even the material component of the spell.
whats that out of?
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If you're looking for a character that has all upsides and no downsides at all to the requirement that no other class is allowed to even exist in the world as an npc you're in the wrong game.
You have a LOT of really, really nutty random, requirements that you're looking for here. If you think the druid is underpowered or not versatile you're nuttier than the special brownies they hand out at the moots.
+1
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Well I need a Sorcerer/Wizard as my right hand, and a Cleric/Oracle as my left. Druid is my third arm. So the other hands/arms/member of my party to fulfil the role of frontline and skills.
Thinking of other players as your "right hand" and your "left hand" is saying "I'm the main star in this game and the other players are only here to be my sidekicks".
Pathfinder is a teamwork play and the rules don't favor that kind of game.
Thinking of other players as your "right hand" and your "left hand" is saying "I'm the main star in this game and the other players are only here to be my sidekicks".
Pathfinder is a teamwork play and the rules don't favor that kind of game.
+1.
I just hope you are not deciding the other players' characters; that would be gross.
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Well I need a Sorcerer/Wizard as my right hand, and a Cleric/Oracle as my left. Druid is my third arm. So the other hands/arms/member of my party to fulfil the role of frontline and skills.
Kinda rude to refer to other players as your arms/hands/whatever. They're there to play their characters, same way you're there to play whatever character you have.
I remember when the Paladin was seen as more of an asset as it was a strong warrior and fulfilled Charisma duties.
They... still... do? Strong warrior and if you put points into Diplomacy, they can face rather well... Not sure what you mean here.
Yeah Im better at making my own team then sticking to one class and hoping humans can cover everything I cannot.
Then honestly stick to Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate, et al. You'll have more fun, and you'll be able to control every aspect of your party.
Pathfinder is a team game, which means that you play it as part of... wait for it... a team. In home campaigns, this generally means that you get together with friends and talk about what kinds of characters everyone is going to play. In PFS play, you build your character and end up with wacky party combinations, like 5 barbarians/1 life oracle, and have a lot of fun figuring out how to make it work.
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Pfs parties like the ones you mentioned are the times when druids, investigators, bards, skalds, inquisitors and other flexible characters really shine.
Whether that means switching their role from support to front line, or having to take the responsibility for basically all the skill checks is a scenario, realizing you only have a high bluff as a social skill and trying to lie more than you should. These types of weird things are why I like playing pfs. Different groups create different dynamics and different challenges.
Sometimes you sit at a table full of experienced players that also gm and you know they know what they are doing. So you can prep weird spells just to see how they may work.
I have had to use my fighter as the only guy that can identify magic items. He OK at it but if it seemed like a good item everybody sit waiting a few seconds while I describe banging it with the gauntlet, smelling it before I finally announce my role. Thing like this add to scenarios and are pretty unique to organized play.
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So I am not sure if you have experience playing Druids, it doesn't seem like you have had a chance yet. I have been playing Druids since 1st edition D&D so I have a lot of experience playing the class. I have several druids in pathfinder now, including at least 5 in PFS.
Druids are very versatile. I usually play melee druids, some Str based, some Dex based. I also have played caster druids before.
I think one problem Druids have is their limited ability to fulfill the healing role. They get heals later, they do not get access to a variety of restoration like spells (restoration, remove fear, remove sickness etc..), in that regard if you want to play a Druid healer, Samsaran works great.
That doesn't mean you can't play the role. It just means you have to be more imaginative. Going up against a Mummy, maybe drop Owl's Wisdom on your tank, or better yet freedom of movement. Don't want the players to get hit alot, drop a bunch of summons to soak up damage.
I have played a Str based, melee damage druid, that looked at a PFS party comp and said ok, I am grabbing a bunch of buffs, heals and crowd control spells and going to be a caster I stood in back and dropped spells, while wearing full plate while my Animal stood rear guard. Nothing like faerie fire to stop invis, and Wall of Thorns to turn a tough battle into 2 easy ones.
I have also played a caster druid tank, that stood in back dropping summons and spells, until the stone golems showed up then picked them up and held them for an entire encounter.
Few classes in the game can switch roles as easily as a druid, most can't do it at all. You can build, as I mentioned in some previous posted druids that can tank/heal/melee/range and even switch out to fulfill other roles when needed, not perfectly but when is the last time your Wizard tanked? Your fighter healed? Your rogue was AoE damage?
Technically, druids CAN melee, do archery, heal, buff, and blast.
They can also face, transport, summon, debuff, battlefield control, and scout.
I like elf druids because of the bonus to Perception (which synergizes really well with a high Wisdom and class skill bonus; half-elf druids with Skill Focus Perception are the only ones with higher Perception checks--especially if they also get Alertness somehow (familiar from multi-classing?)), caster level checks, and weapon proficiencies--particularly bows. The additional Intelligence can be used for an extra skill point, which helps make a druid be a skill monkey and not just an occasional monkey monkey.
They make great anti-casters too. They're one of the few classes that can Ready An Action to Counterspell and not be bored (because their animal companion and summons can be "active" while the druid is "passively" waiting for a spell to counter; also Improved Counterspell can be used to trade out prepared flamestrikes for enemy fireballs or lightning bolts. An ounce of counterspelling is better than a pound of cure spells.). They can also wildshape and grapple a caster. And sometimes constrict or swallow a caster.
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They make great anti-casters too. They're one of the few classes that can Ready An Action to Counterspell and not be bored (because their animal companion and summons can be "active" while the druid is "passively" waiting for a spell to counter
I still remember the time I trivialized a BBEG because I countered a Time Stop while my pet and the rest of party destroyed the BBEG. A bunch of summoned grapplers also had something to say. The BBEG was almost incapable of casting a single spell.
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They make great anti-casters too. They're one of the few classes that can Ready An Action to Counterspell and not be bored (because their animal companion and summons can be "active" while the druid is "passively" waiting for a spell to counterI still remember the time I trivialized a BBEG because I countered a Time Stop while my pet and the rest of party destroyed the BBEG. A bunch of summoned grapplers also had something to say. The BBEG was almost incapable of casting a single spell.
Your poor GM! :-O
Your poor GM! :-O
GM is fine ;-D
There were more BBEGs where that one came from so no big loss. It wasn't even the main goal of the campaign, just the final boss of an episode. I actually love my players acting in such resourceful ways.And I took my revenge later making Dalindra confront a lvl 20 druid with more druids as followers xD
It was the second hardest fight of the whole campaign (first was the final boss) and they won the fight only because the lvl 20 druid didn't have an animal companion.
By the way, it was also a pretty meaningful combat as the evil druid was an elven renegade and a death cultist who had enslaved most of Dalindra's race and craved to destroy all elves.
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If you think you should be able to do everything yourself Ranged damage + Melee Damage + Heal + Tank + Control and think of other characters as your right and left arm you should definitely stick to video games because the point of pathfinder is fun with friends and they're not there to be your right and left hand.
If that is your thing more power to you, but that is not a playstyle pathfinder really supports.