Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
Life continues. Dinosaurs are hardly the only powerful predator form. Nor is melee as an animal the only route to power for a Druid. For some reason, enemies are rather reluctant to grapple my spouse when his Druid is wildshaped as a huge flame elemental.
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Life continues. Dinosaurs are hardly the only powerful predator form.Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
So you are saying that it doesn't really affect the power level of a Druid even inasfaras interactions between Summon Nature's Ally and Wildshape?
So you are saying that it doesn't really affect the power level of a Druid even inasfaras interactions between Summon Nature's Ally and Wildshape?Life continues. Dinosaurs are hardly the only powerful predator form.Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
Yes I am. BTW in such a scenario that means Wizards can't use them via Summon Monster either.
Presumably if a DM is going to remove a monster or criter from a Summon list, he's going to replace it with something appropriate to the level of the spell.
Honestly CT, at this point I think you have to look at a different game system for the sake of your own sanity. It's clear that you're not happy with how Pathfinder is structured. Some have suggested GURPS, might also be good for you to check out the Fantasy Age system, which has the warrior/rogue/mage idea you mentioned earlier in the thread.I didnt actually mention a rogue even once.
Oh Christ, you're doing this on purpose now. It's literally this post.
I keep repeating myself and people interpreting the wrong things.
Yeah im in the wrong system of spells. For me there are two general options. #1 the spell scales up to be more effective. #2 you have a new spell to replace the one not scaling.
Using it as an example again, Charm Animal would GRADUALLY becomes Charm Vs everything so its a general purpose crowd control ability. By Tier 9 it would be be Mass Charm Everything.
Thats where Im getting really confused. Is the Druid is a specialist or an all rounder? Its wild shapes are specialized for melee not ranged and its spells are also specialized to work only in certain terrains or against certain targets.
I ask for crowd control against more than one species and people seem to go crazy.
You're simply asking for things that don't exist. I want to play a Fighter who can shoot Fireballs at will, doesn't mean I get it anytime soon. You just have to learn to accept the system and enjoy it, not wish for impossibilities. And there still are lots of spells that "level up" with you. Protection from Energy, Resist Energy, Jump, Snowball, Liberating Command, and so on. No class has a spell that automatically broadens the scope of creature types affected. You want a first-level spell that can affect all creature types as it levels up? That means a single spell will be useful throughout your entire career. Pathfinder's magic system simply isn't built for that. Spell levels scale with CR. A first-level spell can be used to get rid of a CR 3 creature, but for a CR 5 creature you might need a level 2 spell. If the same spell is used through your entire career, other spells become useless. The current system rewards new spell levels by accessing greater magic. The other spells I listed only grow in damage dice (with a cap, for the same reason) or are useful in specific situations, not all the time.
Druids are absurdly flexible and versatile. However, you may be trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.
Honestly CT, at this point I think you have to look at a different game system for the sake of your own sanity. It's clear that you're not happy with how Pathfinder is structured. Some have suggested GURPS, might also be good for you to check out the Fantasy Age system, which has the warrior/rogue/mage idea you mentioned earlier in the thread.I didnt actually mention a rogue even once, until just now.
I keep repeating myself and people interpreting the wrong things.
To you I thinks its coming out as "I want Disintegrate that blows up the planet that teleports me and makes me invincible"
To me, its just a crowd control spell that works on any monster(before tier 9 thank you).
Yeah im in the wrong system of spells. For me there are two general options. #1 the spell scales up to be more effective. #2 you have a new spell to replace the one not scaling.
Druid spells and abilities arent adaptable individually. I shouldnt need to say how having a buff that only works on natural attacks is specialized.
Apologies, I used "rogue" as an analog for "skilled", which is what you actually mentioned.
You're frustrated with the system and you're frustrated with us. I think it's really in your best interest that you look for a different game that isn't Pathfinder, because you can't seem to find what you like. And this isn't even me thinking that you want a disintegrate that blows up planets or the likes, this is me seeing you get more and more frustrated and suggesting that you step away from this game and try to find a different one that better fits what you want out of it.
Honestly, I agree with the two people above me. I've tried explaining to you that what you want is impossible from this system several times now, but you insist on wanting to do it anyway. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it seems like Pathfinder isn't for you. Try a classless system where you just get more awesome at your specialisation. You don't level up in Shadowrun, you just put more time and money in training a certain skill and you're better at it. With enough income, you can be great at everything. From what I've heard, GURPS does the same.
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They can't take a Dino companion or summon dinosaurs with summon natures ally. Other than that, nothing. Druids pull power from nature, not from dinosaurs.Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
I'm asking because I am of the (perhaps incorrect) perception that the best options for summons and shapes are taken from the Dinosaur kingdom.
So. Is it true?
Okay so let me get this straight. People are arguing with me over what "versatility" entails, whats the little between low, medium, and high competance means but NOT that I cant find an actual all rounder class? Good to know because I stated that on the first page.
Its an argument of language and its frustrating me, but also making me laugh a little. Do you know what a Synonym is? Its a word with has similar if not exact meaning.
So Versatile, Adaptable, and Flexible are synonyms people are arguing about.
So the major difference is I dont see INDIVIDUAL spells as being flexible. SO that buff only works on natural attacks or that crowd control spell only works on animals. Now you may say the Druid CLASS is flexible, which is technically true as it can use a little bit of a wide range of spells.
Yeah im in the wrong system of spells. For me there are two general options. #1 the spell scales up to be more effective. #2 you have a new spell to replace the one not scaling.Druid spells and abilities arent adaptable individually.
See that? There is more than one system so yet another exaggeration of "Chaosticket wants a tier 1 spell to mind control Gods".
There has been pages of exaggerations. I keep going back because I dont like people lying, misinterpreting, exaggerating, or generally taking things out a context.
Now if the Druid ever gets upgrades to its spells then Id like to know. For now please just stop responding.
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Just this from me: About half of this thread exists because you used the wrong word. Not just a synonym, but an actual, wrong word. We've been arguing past each other because we were using different terms altogether. Please describe what you want in your next topics more carefully, please. That's been a tendency in your posts, I feel:
"I want to do this!"
"Okay, that can be done in way X."
"No, I actually mean a subset of way X."
But stretch it out for 200 posts.
They can't take a Dino companion or summon dinosaurs with summon natures ally. Other than that, nothing. Druids pull power from nature, not from dinosaurs.Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
I'm asking because I am of the (perhaps incorrect) perception that the best options for summons and shapes are taken from the Dinosaur kingdom.
So. Is it true?
No. because there are other creatures that do effective damage, and there are creatures which also give other options.
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No. because there are other creatures that do effective damage, and there are creatures which also give other options.They can't take a Dino companion or summon dinosaurs with summon natures ally. Other than that, nothing. Druids pull power from nature, not from dinosaurs.Question.
What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?
(This is a serious question from a DM)
I'm asking because I am of the (perhaps incorrect) perception that the best options for summons and shapes are taken from the Dinosaur kingdom.
So. Is it true?
This. In fact, dinosaurs are usually not the best choice for any category. Velociraptors are good companions because they have five attacks and pounce, but so do tigers. A TRex is nice for a one massive hit build, but a behemoth hippo or a carnivorous crystal ooze is better. Cyclops are better for summon natures ally, because they can guarantee a crit.
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For a versatile spell try aqueous orb.
works on everything (reasonable interpretation will cap it out at large)
no sr, so it work on pesky golems
can move unconcious or screwed party members out of danger while protecting them from AoOs.
can put out fires that inevitably happen around advenuters (for absolutely no reason. what so ever)
if you need something cleaned well beyond prestidigitations abilities...
also works as a temporary fish tank for summoned sharks.
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Velociraptors are good companions because they have five attacks and pounce, but so do tigers.
Let me explain why your pretty little kitty is a fad and we ruled the planet for 123 million years.
Yes, the cat can pounce. If he can charge. But his overly large posterior needs a charge lane, free of corners, difficult terrain and the 5 or 6 other mouth breathing mammals you're running around the dungeon with NOT running up and getting in the way.
They always run up and get in the way.
How good you are at something under perfect conditions doesn't matter if those conditions rarely line up. When you want pounce to WORK, you ride the raptor.
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Its an argument of language and its frustrating me, but also making me laugh a little. Do you know what a Synonym is? Its a word with has similar if not exact meaning.
If you gave everyone the exact same impression, perhaps you should consider that it isn't everyone elses reading skills that are at fault.
Just this from me: About half of this thread exists because you used the wrong word. Not just a synonym, but an actual, wrong word. We've been arguing past each other because we were using different terms altogether. Please describe what you want in your next topics more carefully, please. That's been a tendency in your posts, I feel:
"I want to do this!"
"Okay, that can be done in way X."
"No, I actually mean a subset of way X."
But stretch it out for 200 posts.
Im going to say everyone is a shared problem in all this.
I could accept they specialized spells on the Druid list IF they were at-will so I could have the spells when I need them, not useless because the enemy is type or terrain is wrong.
I said it before but the class requires a stupidly complicated amount of foresight. Armor is also a big one because there is no way to get standard(for me) armor tiers on a Druid. I use Mithril a lot and work my way to Celestial Armor. Druid takes 16,420 gold for "basic" +1 Wild lamellar leather armor. Barding doesnt work in normal form and normal armor doesnt work in animal form.
Me? I was wondering if sticking to a Druid for months and years was worth it. Ive been convinced thoroughly "NO"
Just this from me: About half of this thread exists because you used the wrong word. Not just a synonym, but an actual, wrong word. We've been arguing past each other because we were using different terms altogether. Please describe what you want in your next topics more carefully, please. That's been a tendency in your posts, I feel:
"I want to do this!"
"Okay, that can be done in way X."
"No, I actually mean a subset of way X."
But stretch it out for 200 posts.Im going to say everyone is a shared problem in all this.
I could accept they specialized spells on the Druid list IF they were at-will so I could have the spells when I need them, not useless because the enemy is type or terrain is wrong.
I said it before but the class requires a stupidly complicated amount of foresight. Armor is also a big one because there is no way to get standard(for me) armor tiers on a Druid. I use Mithril a lot and work my way to Celestial Armor. Druid takes 16,420 gold for "basic" +1 Wild lamellar leather armor. Barding doesnt work in normal form and normal armor doesnt work in animal form.
Me? I was wondering if sticking to a Druid for months and years was worth it. Ive been convinced thoroughly "NO"
So I guess the question becomes if there is a class you'd stick with for months and years. Based on your posts I feel like you're still trying to find one.
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I figure that most of the time, when you wake up, and prepare your spells you should be able to tell whether you're going to be on the mountains or in a swamp or at sea and so the terrain-specific spells are hardly useless.
I mean, you're going to have to prepare different spells on swamp days versus forest days, but it's not much of a stretch to wake up, have breakfast, and look around to see if you can find any trees, mountains, or oceans nearby.
The druid can be quite rewarding if you stick with it. However, if you need mithril and/or celestial armor, then I guess it isn't for you.
A lot of complaints about the spell list. I recommend Urban Druid (which is awesome) or samsarans. They get to nab the couple spells you really want. Other archetypes can give new spells in domains, but Urban lets you cast them spontaneously.
Or just play 3.5 :p
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I figure that most of the time, when you wake up, and prepare your spells you should be able to tell whether you're going to be on the mountains or in a swamp or at sea and so the terrain-specific spells are hardly useless.
I mean, you're going to have to prepare different spells on swamp days versus forest days, but it's not much of a stretch to wake up, have breakfast, and look around to see if you can find any trees, mountains, or oceans nearby.
Yep thats the drawback of being a traveling Murder Hobo in once a week games.
Do you not have natural spell?
get natural spell, a druids vestment, and the beast of the society trait. Become a medium velociraptor. you won't have to leave form till you're fossilized.
re specialized spells
A druid can hyper specialize their spell selection. And then if it becomes obvious that Fire snake isn't going to work because you inadvertently wound up in the hall of the fire elementals, just burn it for a summons.
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For a versatile spell try aqueous orb.
works on everything (reasonable interpretation will cap it out at large)
no sr, so it work on pesky golems
can move unconcious or screwed party members out of danger while protecting them from AoOs.
can put out fires that inevitably happen around advenuters (for absolutely no reason. what so ever)
if you need something cleaned well beyond prestidigitations abilities...
also works as a temporary fish tank for summoned sharks.
Maybe the best candidate for persistent 3rd level or bellow.
So the major difference is I dont see INDIVIDUAL spells as being flexible. SO that buff only works on natural attacks or that crowd control spell only works on animals. Now you may say the Druid CLASS is flexible, which is technically true as it can use a little bit of a wide range of spells.
Ah, gotcha. Tossing out animal-focused spells (which I agree are way too narrow), Druid is still good at crowd control, with Entangle, Stone Call, Obscuring Mist, the wall spells, etc.
Some generally-applicable buffs include Barkskin, Protection from Energy/Resist Energy, the stat-boost spells, Mass Feather Step (mostly because it gives your party maneuverability in the areas of difficult terrain you create), Freedom of Movement, the mobility spells (Air Walk, Earth Glide, etc.), Hunter's Blessing, True Seeing, and Stoneskin. The natural attack boosters aren't versatile spells, but they are always applicable to you, your animal companion, and most of your summons.
The Druid spell list is the worst of the full casting lists, yes. It's not all animal-focused, though.
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Again, the wild shape is the versatility.
Invisible foe? Turn into a bat and farie fire
Darkness? Daylight
Webbing? turn into a fire elemental and burn it off.
Grappled? Oh look, i'm bigger than you AND i punch harder.
Small foes in tinny holes? I'm a firefox.
Flying foes? Air walk your pet. Then tun into a bird, carry your fighter to the fight then call lightning from the sky.
Archers ? Obscuring mists. its a 20% miss chance for your melee, its a 50 to 99% miss chance for the archers
Dunked in water? I'm a dolphin.
Swim through lava?
Paralyzed party? Freedom of movement
Puking party? recentering drone.
Poison? slow poisons all around (and accept affliction after ninth level)
party getting ambushed? Stone shape a wall
Only got rocks to throw? Magic stone.
Only got a stick to swing? Shillelagh.
Don't even have any rocks to throw? Produce flame.
Don't even have a stick to swing? Flame blade. Or wildshape.
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Remember even if you make some mistakes in prep you can take 15 min and fill some empty slots.
Other buffs:
Cheetah's Sprint, Aspect of the Falcon, Heightened Awareness, animal aspect etc.
Versatile Spells:
Faerie Fire, Heightened Awareness, Hydraulic Push (team up with a pit wizard), Monkey Fish, Produce Flame (melee, range, light), Burst of radiance etc.
Two quick things I will say I agree with the idea that prepared casters are a little over valued by the community. It takes a lot of game mastery to set your spells so you use most of them each day in effective situation.
Overly simplified a prepared caster as 1 or 2 sets of spells a day but infinite combinations in a given week. Spontaneous casters have the spells known at each level X spell slots summed but that's the same every day. I did a back of the napkin calculation with my sorcerer including meta-magic (one being heighten) and the result was tens of thousand of combinations.
Second if you want the best of the "hold" spells to bench mark against it's Chains of Light debuff teleports, paralyses, and hit almost everything.
HA HA Okay at this point I am convinced nobody is using "versatility" right. Changing your spells is very different from having spells that work against everything.
To me, its just a crowd control spell that works on any monster(before tier 9 thank you).
These are your quotes btw, and its where people get the (according to you) definition that you want to be "God", or do anything, or whatever.
Key words in those posts though are "everything" and "any". I can post dictionary definitions of those words if you like, but I think most people reading this would have a fair idea what they mean.
Now, I'm a helpful sort, so lets examine a spell, with crowd control, that might work on "everything". When you use the word "everything" you are including any and all monsters in the game. For the record, this includes usual humans (aka so if such a spell exists, it can also be used against PC's but hey, we can get to that later).
Lets take a standard crowd control spell. You mentioned Hold Person earlier in the thread, as something you mentioned wizards got, as crowd control, that you considered a solid crowd control spell. Hold Person has an upgrade, called Mass Hold Person, and it works against multiple targets. I am going to assume that this fits your definition of a "crowd control skill", if I am mistaken, feel free to suggest another alternative and we can go through it again, remember, I'm here to help :)
*DING*
Your Kitsune Sorcerer pinged up a level. Today, it realises it wants to make a custom spell. Lets call it Mass Hold Person 2.0. Its a crowd control spell that works on everything. Kitsune Sorcerer flexes, researches, learns the spell, and decides to go on a walk.
WHAM
A Human appears waving a stick! Sorcy doesn't care though, it casts MHP 2.0 and stick man fails by virtue of Sorcy's super high DC. Sorcy laughs, pulls a few entertaining faces and then kills stickman with his Scythe via Coup-De-Grace.
Sorcy goes on his (or her), way.
OMG
A Lich appears. Giving an evil cackle at laughs at Sorcy, aware that that it takes jack from Hold Person and Mass Hold Person. Not Sorcy though. Sorcy has access to his superpowered level 8 (remember, we said it should be before Tier 9) Super Mass Hold person. Sorcy laughs knowing that it works against any monster. Sorcy casts MHP 2.0, and crushes the Lich. Sorcy goes on his (or her!) way.
*****************************************************
Now this, is why people get the wrong impression. Your explicit wording was "I want want a control spell that works on any monster". These spells are hard to balance, and indeed, no spell, will work on anything. I guarantee this (well, probably except Wish/Miracle). Now, you go on to inform me that you feel the druid spell list is not versatile, partly because it lacks versatile control spells - each to his own. I would encourage you to find a crowd control spell on any list below level 8, that works on everything. Please, please go ahead, I'll wait.
"But wait", I hear you say. "I want something that works on MOST things, silly ginganinja, I know that a spell might not always work on everything!".
Great, so you just learnt what versatility means! It means, good in many, most, but not all situations. It is, identical to your personal definition of versatility, identical to the various dictionary definitions people are posting. To say "people don't know what versatility means HA HA", is to say, you don't know what versatility is, because people are using, the definition, you and the dictionary gave.
Now, you are perfectly welcome to say that "whoops" you disagree with the definition you yourself gave earlier in the thread. Its fine. You are perfectly in your rights to disagree with the definition the dictionary gives. That is also fine. That said, if you mean something else, if what you said previous was not what you wanted to say at all, then tell people. We are not mind readers, we can only go off what you say, and what you type. If people are getting the wrong impression, its because you are not taking the time and care with your posts to say what you mean. It is not anyone else's responsibility to decode your meaning, so if people are "getting the wrong idea", then clarify. I have already pointed out above how easy it can be to misunderstand your comments so take a moment to just make sure everyone is on the same page!
Happy Posting :)
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First off, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're seriously trying to get this to work. Seriously, I'm here to help if you'd just work with us. The fact that you seem to be ignoring every post that is trying to help you and focusing on complaining. This makes you look like a troll.
Second, I TOLD YOU, if you just "keep repeating myself and people interpreting the wrong things." then nothing changes. If you ask the wrong question you'll get the correct answer to that question. Which you then are upset about because it isn't what you're looking for. So if you don't start to change the questions why would you expect people to suddenly read your mind and answer the question you mean?
Now maybe trying to tackle 3 points was too much for one post so here we go with just one.
Armor is also a big one because there is no way to get standard(for me) armor tiers on a Druid. I use Mithril a lot and work my way to Celestial Armor. Druid takes 16,420 gold for "basic" +1 Wild lamellar leather armor. Barding doesnt work in normal form and normal armor doesnt work in animal form.
WHY do you care that the same armor works in normal form and animal form?
What are you wanting MECHANICALLY from armor? Armor is just AC, if you reach the same AC without armor then the armor isn't needed, what AC are you looking for?
seriously, answer these two question, questions THAT ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO HELP YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT, and you'll begin to see answer THAT YOU LIKE.
As people have said, you only reply to a fraction of the answers given here, and only the ones where you get to complain. No wonder people are trolling you and you're getting frustrated.
Also, as other have said, no spell slot is "wasted". You can prep random spells that might or might not work today, and if they don't, they're random Summon spells. So there's literally no downside to prepping the wrong spells, aside from having to choose one spell over the other. But that's the case with every prepared caster.
I said it before but the class requires a stupidly complicated amount of foresight. Armor is also a big one because there is no way to get standard(for me) armor tiers on a Druid. I use Mithril a lot and work my way to Celestial Armor. Druid takes 16,420 gold for "basic" +1 Wild lamellar leather armor. Barding doesnt work in normal form and normal armor doesnt work in animal form.
Me? I was wondering if sticking to a Druid for months and years was worth it. Ive been convinced thoroughly "NO"
So your only reason for not sticking with Druid is AC? Let me tell you the story of a friend's Druid. He has a DEX of 12 and wears light armour, because he wants to move 30 feet, like you. Every day, he prepares multiple Resinous Skins and Caustic Bloods, and invested a lot in CON. He's the party's punching bag. He's accepted the fact that he will get hit. But he has worked around that fact by punishing attacks on him, by either losing weapons or doing retaliation damage. A pouncing tiger might change his mind after the second attack, because his attacks don't seem to work that well, and for some reason every attack hurts himself as well. The first few levels were tough, but once he got Resinous Skin, he became a very effective member of the team.
At higher levels, AC doesn't matter much unless you keep investing in it. Around level 8 or so, things like Displacement, Blink, Mirror Image, and other stuff become great ways of damage negation. Druids don't get a lot of that, but Resinous Skin is one very effective method. DR/Piercing is pretty rare, and will probably only be readily available to certain natural attacks, but otherwise it's DR5/- against everything.
If you happen to want a higher level charm spell for a druid - I think I saw that skimming this thread? - then the Fey Spell Lore feat gives you Charm Monster as a 5th level spell, among other things.
Mundane or +1 barding is cheap as. Carrying a spare set will cost you under 2000 gp which is significantly cheaper than your 16 420 gp wild armor. Or if you prefer, a 1000 gp pearl of power or a 750 gp wand of mage armor for some friend to use.
I have a question:
Where do your goals for character creation come from? Usually we have an intuition about what can be done based on the context. When you play chess you can discuss different strategies and their values. A chess game is an aximatic system, so we have a finit number of draws for each Situation. Accumulating the respectiv expectations makes what we call strategy and the set of strategies is the context in which we evaluate every single draw.
Now roleplayingames are more complex and -usually- no axiomatic systems, but we still have intuitions that create expectations. When I play some kind of Cthullu-adaption, my creteria a different from those made up in the context of hollow eath expidition, because the rules and the settings differ. But for sure, both those systems do not make us expext to play a character able to throw fireballs (by the way in no terms a powerfull spell in pathfinder without a lot of specialization) or bring the dead back to life.
Now Pathfinder creates those expectations. High fantasy stuff. Fireballs, raising dead. But the ruleset makes pretty clear what class design was aiming for. Filling certain roles in a party. Now the class design, combined with the general mechanics of this game, create a huge disparity between classes, builds and characters created by players with different goals or system mastery. Something like a schrödingers wizard breaks the game in a way, no other class will ever be able to. An AM Barbarin will smash weak fighter - GROAR. A rogue will suffer compared to everthing but monks - at least in tendency. So that is the fundament of this very game, the base for all our expectations.
Now when I look at your "goals", you wouldnt even consider said schrödingers wizard as versatile because he is lacking certain options you want - even though he can overcome any encounter and is generally immortal. He is the closest to god you can get within this system.
Now I am curious where your expectations come from. A lot of people in here are struggling with your conclusions because within reasonable expectations you have when playing this game and knowing how it works, the druid belongs to the very most versatile and powerful classes you may find. They are surprised that you want said druid to throw fireballs because it doesnt need to. It has other and better options for damaging opponents - so they wonder why you have that demand for fireballs. Why is there a need for resurrection when we're talking about versatility? The Druid fulfills 90% (thats just made up) of all criteria towards versatility, more than most other classes - why isnt that enough for you, where does that need for 'complete' versatility come from?
then in addition to that: some of the things you want the druid to have are not necessary in actual gameplay. So is it more a fluff-thing that you want to be an allrounder, having no flaws or are you really talking about mechanical flawlessness? I think a lot of people in here do not share your conviction that being able to cast fireball is in fact necessary for your goals (with good reasons to do so).
Thanks in advance! :)
The Druid is not as flexible as people imply. Its hyped up BY YOU PEOPLE in this thread to be super flexible. It improves as you level up, but cant do many of the things relatively short into a character life.
WIld Shape isnt accessible until level 4. You dont have access to Natural spell as a feat until 5. To talk in animal form requires another feat, Wild Speech, probably at level 7. Multiple uses of Wild Shape doesnt come into play until level 6 and 8 so one form is all you get each day.
By the way, what level do you think Im starting as?
Youre talking about a higher level Druid with all those things already unlocked. I am not or am going to be for a long, long time. I mentioned before ether its worth preceding with as a class. DId you think I was jumping in at level 20 or something?
Level 5... that's high. I wonder if anybody has ever gone so far in the game.
I've GMed druids from 1st to 20st level and they've been effective from the first to the last level. Indeed, they really start to shine when they get natural spells but they are far from being useless until that point.
Actually, the druid I'm talking about had often to restrain herself so her party mates could get their spotlight, as she was highly effective in all kind of situations. And I'm not talking about an optimized character, as she had picked some flavor feats.
Based on your past threads, I'd wager that you're starting at 1st or 2nd level. At that point, no, you aren't going to have every trick that the druid is known for. All full casters have a harder time in the earliest levels. I'd still say that druids have it easier because they can have a fluffy/scaly/feathered murderball following them around. Your melee effectiveness in the early level primarily lies in your pet, not in you yourself. It's possible, indeed probable, that said pet will be around the same effectiveness as your party fighter at those low levels. If you personally want to wade in with Fluffy, quite a few people have mentioned low level spells that would help, like Shillelagh and Flame Blade. Don't dismiss your animal because it's not your actual character, it's an important part of being a druid.
What are you wanting MECHANICALLY from armor? Armor is just AC, if you reach the same AC without armor then the armor isn't needed, what AC are you looking for?
He made it clear that he wants High AC armor with high dex allowance and no armor check penalty. He wants the equivalent of celestial armor for druids, which doesn't exist because there isn't anything non-metal which delivers the same way celestial armor does.
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WIld Shape isnt accessible until level 4. You dont have access to Natural spell as a feat until 5. To talk in animal form requires another feat, Wild Speech, probably at level 7. Multiple uses of Wild Shape doesnt come into play until level 6 and 8 so one form is all you get each day.
A ring of elequence is dirt cheap and will easily allow speech in wild shap at level 4, negating the need for one feat. A polymorphic pouch is also inexpensive and can remove be the need for natural spell, although natural spell works better.
And yes, you have one use of wild shape at level four, and two at six. So what? At level four even one use allows you to take any animal form for up to four hours. This is an incredibly long duration and can give you access to long term combat forms, long duration flight, water breathing, or other abilities and blows away any other utility spell available to any class. And you gain full casting on top of that.
Based on your past threads, I'd wager that you're starting at 1st or 2nd level. At that point, no, you aren't going to have every trick that the druid is known for. All full casters have a harder time in the earliest levels. I'd still say that druids have it easier because they can have a fluffy/scaly/feathered murderball following them around. Your melee effectiveness in the early level primarily lies in your pet, not in you yourself. It's possible, indeed probable, that said pet will be around the same effectiveness as your party fighter at those low levels. If you personally want to wade in with Fluffy, quite a few people have mentioned low level spells that would help, like Shillelagh and Flame Blade. Don't dismiss your animal because it's not your actual character, it's an important part of being a druid.
Though if we're talking about first level play, I have to wonder why he was going on about the lack of mithril and celestial armor earlier in the thread. At first level, I count a character as lucky if they have all their most basic equipment sorted out; mithril's probably not happening until level 5 at the earliest.
That said, nobody is all that versatile at low levels. Your stats and skills are still low, and most of your class abilities haven't come online yet. Heck, one of my big pet peeves about low-level play is that your luck with a d20 matters far more than your actual build choices for a lot of things; The 5 Charisma Dwarf with ranks in no diplomacy can be more charming than the 16 charisma bard with max investment (admittedly only one rank).
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The Druid is not as flexible as people imply. Its hyped up BY YOU PEOPLE in this thread to be super flexible. It improves as you level up, but cant do many of the things relatively short into a character life.
First, this is again a "FEELS" statement. This does a very bad job at letting us, the readers, understand what you're thinking. MECHANICICALLY prove what "flexibility" is lacking at certain levels to give meaning to what you mean when you say, "it's not flexible". The reason you get so upset is because you're doing an awful job at conveying your intent to us and we are answering what you say cause we can't read your mind to know you meant something else.
It gets to do more or equal things than any other class is doing at that level. And the stuff it does can handle and is usable in more situations than most other classes. So what exactly is making the druid not flexible in early levels?
WIld Shape isnt accessible until level 4. You don't have access to Natural spell as a feat until 5. To talk in animal form requires another feat, Wild Speech, probably at level 7. Multiple uses of Wild Shape doesn't come into play until level 6 and 8 so one form is all you get each day.
So? No Seriously. SO???? What point are you trying to make here? Cause congrats, you just gave a lot of info but no point. "A fighter had a d10 hit die and gains a combat feat at lv1 and ever even level thereafter. You don't have armor training till lv3 and you don't have weapon training till lv5 and multiple groups don't come into play until lv9. If you want to power attack that's a feat, if you want no penalties on your first swing that's another feat"
Do you see what I did? I did the same thing as you, listed a bunch of stuff about the fighter. Do you notice what else? It had no point. There's nothing I'm able to show or convey with that info. The reader HAS NO IDEA what you're meaning when you say this stuff.
By the way, what level do you think Im starting as?
It sounded like lv1 or lv2. You did say you had some play with it already.
You're talking about a higher level Druid with all those things already unlocked. I am not or am going to be for a long, long time. I mentioned before ether its worth preceding with as a class. Did you think I was jumping in at level 20 or something?
First off, you're very wrong here. YOU keep bringing up high level play and comparing this lv20 druid that can't wear armor. YOU keep bringing up that their spells don't scale till level 20. That you need a base wisdom to cast at lv20 with no items. YOU are the one that brought up high level in the first place. SO DON'T complain when people talk about the higher levels. If you want <5 or <3 level advice, say that and don't bring up high levels. If you care about high levels, then don't complain when people talk about that.
Like seriously, it's like 90% of your words are complaints. OFTEN at people answering questions YOU'VE fielded.
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To add to this most of the advice in the thread covers many levels. Start with a general armour until you can afford wild. Here are spells at multiple levels. Here are good starting stats.
You have the tendency to not reply to paragraphs and paragraphs of advice find one thing you don't like and just write about that. Make a list set some benchmarks and when a build meets them check them off. If those get fulfilled then and only then make a set of secondary priorities and start trying to fill them. The goal post wander and the amount you want from a build grows and grows as the thread goes on but with no acknowledgement that people have spent time and energy showing that the things you want can be done.
An example, complaints about spell versatility with out aknowledging many spells offered to you aqueous orb, explosion of rot, wall of thorns. If you were being clear you could say those are a start I think I need to cover things with poor will saves now, or how many of each should I prep. But what you did was just pick something else to complain about why aren't there better versions of spells at every level a question only answerable by the game designers.
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I hear alot about the class, so I made a character. I havent used it in a while as I didnt think of ways to get past the negatives.
1 Equipment is a big problem as Im in regular form the majority of the time. Best I can use is a Dragonhide Breastplate. Mithril would improvre that but it cant be used. Weapons, well Ive got a scimitar.
What you perceive as a problem might not actually be a problem. What do you want armor for? Armor Class? Druids have plenty of ways to increase their AC without armor. Weapons? Say hello to Fluffy, your new friend. If blast spells, summons, wild shape, and your animal companion aren't enough for you, you can always use racial options to gain proficiencies.
2 I dont know how in WIld Shape to have a High AC score as you lose your armor and you need Amulet of Mighty Fists to give your natural weapons the equivalent of weapon enhancements. AMmulet of natural Armor is very useful but you cant use multiple magic items in the same slot.
This is a real question! You have both barkskin and magic fang on your spell list. You don't need either amulet if you don't want one.
Others have pointed out friends with mage armor, concealment spells, or other non-armor items to boost AC.
Right now I am underperforming as my Animal is doing alot more than my PC.
Your companion doing a lot more than your PC is a part of the class at early levels. Wizards don't have furry balls of death for when their spells run out. Druids do! It is not your PC underperforming, it is your PC bringing a combatant to the table, and still having the action economy to cast.
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Again, what do you think versatility means? Please show me your dictionary definition.
You're just ignoring the post where I showed that a Druid IS versatile by YOUR definition?
At this point I have little choice but to assume that you are either a troll or so set in your own opinions and unstated assumptions that you're not even listening to us. It is crystal clear that you're not actually looking for advice.
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I'm asking because I am of the (perhaps incorrect) perception that the best options for summons and shapes are taken from the Dinosaur kingdom.
So. Is it true?
Its true that some of the best combat forms are dinosaurs. But they're only slightly better than other forms (eg, the big cats are very, very nearly as good as the dinosaurs).
It is true that the best Shaman is definitely the Saurian Shaman but even there the main benefit they have over a Lion Shaman is the great range of creatures that are considered dinosaurs in Pathfinder.
So, the bottom line is that a druid without dinosaurs IS weakened but o nly by a very small amount. If an archetype traded out the ability to wild shape and summon dinosaurs for just about any reasonable benefit (an extra skill point per level or a +2 to my wild empathy, for example) I'd take the trade
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Note : I completely agree with the rest of your post.
The Druid spell list is the worst of the full casting lists, yes.
That is a very debatable statement. One that I would strongly disagree with. I don't feel like having that debate right now, just wanted to point out that your opinion is far from universal.