| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I forgot that people that have been playing for decades have access to a complete database of the games played aroudn the world and so they can tell what it's common and what it's not.
Perhaps not a complete database, but folks have seen what flies (or not) in given situations.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I forgot that people that have been playing for decades have access to a complete database of the games played aroudn the world and so they can tell what it's common and what it's not.
Some of us have been playing for decades. Four of them, in fact. ;-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
Those have been around since at least 1995, but before that, you couldnt just buy any magic weapon you liked, so it balances out.
In ad&d a longsword specialized fighter that found a powerful battleataxe would not mind using it. The fact that you couldn't buy whatever weapon you liked hurted less.
In PF a swashbuckler with his feats on a longsword that finds a powerful rapier will keep using his longsword. That's crippling specialization.
It depended. And of course there are abilities that mean you can use your specialized feats with other similar weapons.
Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
Those have been around since at least 1995, but before that, you couldnt just buy any magic weapon you liked, so it balances out.
In ad&d a longsword specialized fighter that found a powerful battleataxe would not mind using it. The fact that you couldn't buy whatever weapon you liked hurted less.
In PF a swashbuckler with his feats on a longsword that finds a powerful rapier will keep using his longsword. That's crippling specialization.
That is the way the game is designed. Some classes, like Swashbuckler are much more limited in the weapons that they can use effectively. If his Dex modifier is 4 points higher than his Str modifier, the weapon to replace his rapier needs t0 be +4 more than his current weapon or he takes a big hit with damage.
A fighter can use most weapons fairy effectively. But he is likely to take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (a Fighter only feat). And then he is going to have weapon training. Giving him a battleaxe in place of the longsword he specialized in needs to be +2 higher to make up for the loss in proficiency (and still loses a point of damage). Not even fighters can usually afford to specialize in multiple weapons.
I've seen it happen that there are situations where you can't take a battle cleric in bloodstained armour with a greatsword. On the occasion which springs to mind he got left outside in the stables while the rest of the party went in to the ball, because he wouldn't switch to less obvious weaponry - I'm not sure he had any. This didn't help the players' involvement in the game of course.
Situations like that are worth a little preparation for but not paranoia. It's a reason I would avoid playing a dex-to-damage purely martial character in PF though, because they're more crippled by not being able to use their favourite weapon than a strength-based martial character or someone with some magic (the stubborn/stupid battle cleric above would still have been able to be some use if he had gone in.)
I mean isn't there something from most classes you could take away gear wise and they be useless? spell components, books, holy symbols etc. I suppose monks maybe? or one of the improvised weapon arch-types.
From the top of my head, the only classes that can do anything totally naked are...
Sorcerers (magic)
Clerics/Warpriests whose holy symbol is a tattoo (bonus points for Warpriests of Irori)
Monks
Brawlers
Barbarians with lessor beast totem (Low AC due to no equip gets even worse but they have a bucket load of HP)
I think sorcerers who get eschew materials can but they are still limited. I didn't think about holy symbol tattoos. I mean if someone was motivated enough it could in theory be removed and boy would it hurt.
Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
Those have been around since at least 1995, but before that, you couldnt just buy any magic weapon you liked, so it balances out.
In ad&d a longsword specialized fighter that found a powerful battleataxe would not mind using it. The fact that you couldn't buy whatever weapon you liked hurted less.
In PF a swashbuckler with his feats on a longsword that finds a powerful rapier will keep using his longsword. That's crippling specialization.
Back when I played AD&D, it would have had to be a mighty powerful battleaxe to get me to give up the bonuses from weapon specialization once I had a couple proficiencies invested in it.
I think it's pretty build dependent now too. A lot of my martial/full BaB characters these days are happy to swap out weapons at the drop of a hat if there's a decent upgrade in it.
For me it's pretty much the same as before - if I've devoted a bunch of resources into specialization with a specific weapon, I'll try to use that weapon whenever possible, whether I'm getting three attacks every two rounds with it or if I'm getting dex to damage.
|
From the top of my head, the only classes that can do anything totally naked are...
Sorcerers (magic)
Clerics/Warpriests whose holy symbol is a tattoo (bonus points for Warpriests of Irori)
Monks
Brawlers
Barbarians with lessor beast totem (Low AC due to no equip gets even worse but they have a bucket load of HP)
I have a Natural Weapon fighting Lunar Oracle with the Wrecker curse who is fine without gear.
From the top of my head, the only classes that can do anything totally naked are...
Sorcerers (magic)
Clerics/Warpriests whose holy symbol is a tattoo (bonus points for Warpriests of Irori)
Monks
Brawlers
Barbarians with lessor beast totem (Low AC due to no equip gets even worse but they have a bucket load of HP)
I've played a session where the party was... in its underwear. The meleers went for improvised weapons, I went for a holy symbol made of twigs, ranger was screwed, sorcerer didn't sweat :P
To cover my paranoia on a martial character I always pick up the feat barroom brawler.
I can pick up any feat I quality for so if I get disarmed I can pick up any weapon and be proficient in it Or pick up the (catch off guard) feat to use anything as a weapon.
If nothing is there (improved unarmed strike) is an option;if somewhat underwhelming; better than nothing at all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To all those saying OP is paranoid, take a look a this recent thread.
If your GM is a dick there's really no helping that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Play a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.
Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
Always have multiple swords ready. Fun tips to improve your character:
Have a different material, cold iron, silver or even ironwood can make all the difference in some situations.
If you can afford it look for different elements and bonuses
+1 fire weapon, useful for burning stuff and dealing extra damage
+1 bane weapon, too many <insert monster type here> in your life? Get rid of them faster!
+1 alignment weapon, this is a pretty common DR thing
Use a light flail or ankus sometimes, you don't provoke from trip or disarm maneuvers, it's like two bonus feats on a weapon! Use a swordcane to sneak a weapon into most places; don't forget to keep them all in your Combat Scabbard just in case they forget you can whack them with it!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Play a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
Oh yeah, its not like the class design of fighters pushes them towards heavy specialization in one category of weapons, or even worse, one extremely specific kind of weapon. Fighters can just pick up and use any weapon without a care in the world, because they won't take Weapon Training, (Greater) Weapon Specialization or (Greater) Weapon Focus. Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Clerics, etc are all screwed, though. But not a fighter. Nope, Nope, Not at all
|
Oh yeah, its not like the class design of fighters pushes them towards heavy specialization in one category of weapons, or even worse, one extremely specific kind of weapon. Fighters can just pick up and use any weapon without a care in the world, because they won't take Weapon Training, (Greater) Weapon Specialization or (Greater) Weapon Focus. Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Clerics, etc are all screwed, though. But not a fighter. Nope, Nope, Not at allPlay a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
Not as long as there is sticks.
You may be the best with one specific weapon, but you're good with all of them. You're not screwed if your weapon gets taken or broken, just inconvenienced slightly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!
Most GM's don't do this as a constant thing, and if they do you are just screwed. "Not being a martial character" is also not the answer if they want to take away your mean schtick. If you are a cleric than can sunder your holy symbol. If you are a wizard they can sunder the spell component pouch. If you get past that with Eschew Materials, they take your spellbook. If you are a bard high usage of the silence spell shuts you down. The list goes on.
Basically, there is always a way for the GM to screw the player over if he wants to.
And he does MUAHAHAHHA... I mean that is just Smurfin terrible.
you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!
Which is more than an additional +2 enhancement bonus to your weapon, meaning even at the most basic level replacing a +1 weapon with a +3 weapon aka 16,000 gp.If you had a +3 weapon to begin with that would be 22,000 gp.
Or you could look at it as you lost 4 feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh yeah, its not like the class design of fighters pushes them towards heavy specialization in one category of weapons, or even worse, one extremely specific kind of weapon. Fighters can just pick up and use any weapon without a care in the world, because they won't take Weapon Training, (Greater) Weapon Specialization or (Greater) Weapon Focus. Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Clerics, etc are all screwed, though. But not a fighter. Nope, Nope, Not at allPlay a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
Class design of Fighters makes them competent with virtually any non-exotic weapon. One of the reasons they have all those combat feat slots is to give options other than throwing everything including the kitchen sink into one single weapon type. A melee specialist fighter can still find a couple of feat slots to spare in order to make him deadly with a longbow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not as long as there is sticks.Oh yeah, its not like the class design of fighters pushes them towards heavy specialization in one category of weapons, or even worse, one extremely specific kind of weapon. Fighters can just pick up and use any weapon without a care in the world, because they won't take Weapon Training, (Greater) Weapon Specialization or (Greater) Weapon Focus. Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Clerics, etc are all screwed, though. But not a fighter. Nope, Nope, Not at allPlay a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
Better yet, specialize in sticks. A quarterstaff costs nothing, so pick up a stick, ask the wizard if this is a quarterstaff, he will nod sagely (makes a Craft: Weapon check and takes 10, and only needs...like, a standard action). Quarterstaff. You have your weapon back. Get Warrior Spirit to give any stray weapon some enchancements when you need them.
why would you use a weapon that was worse then what you had? i mean if your sueing a +1 and find a +4 with flameing or some such sure but if you had a +1 and found a +2 why would you even consider it? now later you could always retrain then use the +2.
I mean maybe it might happen once in awhile (you can make do until you get a replacement.) but if that was a every game thing I think I would just leave the game.... or make a monk you'd have to dismember that one to keep him from having a weapon.
DM: alright you guys get this quest what are you doing?
Poor monk player: Nothing I can't move cause your a ....
DM: Oh right....
From the top of my head, the only classes that can do anything totally naked are...
Sorcerers (magic)
Clerics/Warpriests whose holy symbol is a tattoo (bonus points for Warpriests of Irori)
Monks
Brawlers
Barbarians with lessor beast totem (Low AC due to no equip gets even worse but they have a bucket load of HP)
Unchained Bloodrager (Unchained Rage) with Kitsune bloodline (Kitsune Compendium) here. No weapon? No problem! Bloodrage gives you a bite attack that gets downright NASTY as you go up in levels. Downside is, you're a magical beast, so you don't get any other weapons during bloodrage. Hope you packed your amulet of mighty fists. :D
Get a bladed belt for 2,000gp. It will turn into any slashing or piercing weapon you want on command. I'd say it still takes up your belt slot while doing so, but your GM may let you put back on your other magic belt after transforming it. You can even enhance the belt and just have it be your go to weapon.
I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
I have, but only when I GM wants to be a dick.
As a GM running NPCs, they're are usually much more keen on watching potential caster (also known as everyone) in situations where weapons (and spells) aren't allowed.
As for the equivalent of weapons being stolen, sundered, or disarm you have spell component pouches, spell books, grappling, silence (the spell) and a myraid of ways make spell casting difficult too.
If your GM isn't doing those to casters just as often as he's doing stuff to a martial characters weapon he's just being a jerk.
For what it's worth, try to convince your GM to use Automatic Bonus Progression. Carry a couple backup weapons (identical to your first). With ABP you can move the enhancement bonus magic from one weapon to another as a swift action once per day.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That is the way the game is designed.
Clearly. That doesn't means it is a good desing.
Class design of Fighters makes them competent with virtually any non-exotic weapon. One of the reasons they have all those combat feat slots is to give options other than throwing everything including the kitchen sink into one single weapon type. A melee specialist fighter can still find a couple of feat slots to spare in order to make him deadly with a longbow.Oh yeah, its not like the class design of fighters pushes them towards heavy specialization in one category of weapons, or even worse, one extremely specific kind of weapon. Fighters can just pick up and use any weapon without a care in the world, because they won't take Weapon Training, (Greater) Weapon Specialization or (Greater) Weapon Focus. Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Clerics, etc are all screwed, though. But not a fighter. Nope, Nope, Not at allPlay a ...dun dun DUUUNNN....Fighter. You can kill people with a stick.
Even better a fighter with disarm.Oh you broke my weapon? Let me kill you with yours.
NO. Class desing makes the paladin and the ranger being competent with virtually any non-exotic (melee at least) weapon. The fighter is just meh.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also remembering this is a team based game, the rest of the party can help and adapt to the situation to assist the martial class regaining their weapon, or just helping them through the encounter so they can regain their weapon after the fight and continue.
So your idea of teamwork is to make the martial useless and have the casters carry the combat?
you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!with a +7 weapon and weapon focus(greater) weapon specialisation(greater) and weapon training you lose way more than just +2 hit +4 damage you lose +11 hit +13 damage plus one or 2 other useful abilities
That would be your fault for creating a one trick pony.
That would be your fault for creating a one trick pony.you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!with a +7 weapon and weapon focus(greater) weapon specialisation(greater) and weapon training you lose way more than just +2 hit +4 damage you lose +11 hit +13 damage plus one or 2 other useful abilities
So people who choose to play classes or archetypes that specialize in one kind of weapon (swashbucklers, gunslingers, warpriests, zen archers, etc.) are making a tactical error?
Also remembering this is a team based game, the rest of the party can help and adapt to the situation to assist the martial class regaining their weapon, or just helping them through the encounter so they can regain their weapon after the fight and continue.So your idea of teamwork is to make the martial useless and have the casters carry the combat?
The idea of teamwork is to get someone off the every man is an island mentality, and realize that this is a game where everyone covers each other's backs.
The idea of teamwork is to get someone off the every man is an island mentality, and realize that this is a game where everyone covers each other's backs.Also remembering this is a team based game, the rest of the party can help and adapt to the situation to assist the martial class regaining their weapon, or just helping them through the encounter so they can regain their weapon after the fight and continue.So your idea of teamwork is to make the martial useless and have the casters carry the combat?
Yeah, but making the martial unable to fight does not do that.
Yeah, but making the martial unable to fight does not do that.The idea of teamwork is to get someone off the every man is an island mentality, and realize that this is a game where everyone covers each other's backs.Also remembering this is a team based game, the rest of the party can help and adapt to the situation to assist the martial class regaining their weapon, or just helping them through the encounter so they can regain their weapon after the fight and continue.So your idea of teamwork is to make the martial useless and have the casters carry the combat?
Then the problem is with the martial or his player's attitude. If my fighter lost his favorite greatsword to mischance or a rust monster, he'd find a way to contribute. Then again he has a whole brace of weapons... not just one.
I like how the fact martial need a weapon is still being thrown down as a huge downside when we already concluded all but like 4 classes need gear just as much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like how the fact martial need a weapon is still being thrown down as a huge downside when we already concluded all but like 4 classes need gear just as much.
Not to the same degree. Martials who want some of the narrative out of combat tricks, need gear to do what other classes do merely with spells.
you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!
Depends on the build and the game. At most you could lose an artifact weapon, as well as the ability to overcome DR/damage type and DR/- and an AoE debuff (possibly your only one) and a significant chunk of your class features. And more. There are a lot of weapon specific feats and class features in PF. Including several class atchetypes focused on having specific gear.
Solutions: Mind Blade magus has it pretty easy as far as weapons, metal and ancestors oracles too. Focusing on unarmed strikes or natural weapons also works. Carrying a few backups works to an extent (depending on weapon and material availability, and enemy diligence), as does spellcasting with eschew materials and no spellbook. Another good way to help keep your gear is a Weapon Tattoo. There is also refusing to focus on one type of weapon, or weapons that can be disarmed, but that does limit the character concepts to an extent (signature weapons are a fairly popular design where I play).
You ever tried playing a wizard without a spellbook?
My wizard has his spellbook for about an hour a day. Then he protects it.
Uh no spell-book no spell components equal useless mage
So people who choose to play classes or archetypes that specialize in one kind of weapon (swashbucklers, gunslingers, warpriests, zen archers, etc.) are making a tactical error?That would be your fault for creating a one trick pony.you loss 2 hit and 4 damage at the most!with a +7 weapon and weapon focus(greater) weapon specialisation(greater) and weapon training you lose way more than just +2 hit +4 damage you lose +11 hit +13 damage plus one or 2 other useful abilities
No but accept that with the strength of specialization, comes vulnerability as well. You made the choice for everything to hinge on your use of a specific weapon. Doesn't give you any more valid excuse to complain when a rust monster comes along. You maid your choice. Take the benefits and detriments together.
Average Fighter = Good with all weapons
Specialized Fighter = Great with one weapon / Decent with others
Heavily Specialized Archetype Fighter = Amazing with one weapon / Sucks without it.
You don't get to whine about the choice you made.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And if you know you can't fight without a rapier/starknife/whatever you should have backups. If you don't have backups of the weapon you are hyprspecialized in then that's an obvious tactical error.