Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...
So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
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Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.
It is just you being paranoid.
Very rarely characters will not have access to their full armour , weapons or spells but it has never been a common or dominant problem even when as a GM I am being mean to my players.
And I can easily take away your best totem claws anyway if I want to , calm emotion spell stops you raging, prolonged combat runs you out of rage, spells to cause fatigue so you can't rage etc...
I carry backups, wear spiked gauntlets/ armor, golf bag for special materials and damage types, keep more spares on my mount/bag of holding/ pack mule. In lots of years this has helped me a couple times, and players in games I run have a couple times benefited from it. Really a small issue that minimal care can resolve.
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I play Martial characters like a combination of Batman and Casey Jones.
Have weapons tailored to most occasions and expendable gear for everything else. Martial characters live and die by their contingency plans.
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To all those saying OP is paranoid, take a look a this recent thread.
Is this thread not an intentionally lampoon or joke of that thread?
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I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
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Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
Carry spares. At high levels, you're often wanting to carry a silver, cold iron, and adamantine version of your weapon so you can switch it out as needed to overcome DR.
This admittedly still leaves you in a bad place in a no-weapons-allowed situation. A called weapon may help there, if you can leave it within 100' without attracting suspicion. Other options include gloves of storing, and, of course, using sleight of hand to conceal a weapon.
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The last extended campaign I was a player in I was playing an occultist. Moreso than any class, I think that one is vulnerable to GMs trying to wreck/take away your stuff. Somebody smashes/steals your special mirror? You lose 1/4 of your spells including all of your healing and a bunch of other class features.
I think at some level you just need to trust that your GM isn't going to just go out of his or her way to mess with you for no good reason, and in case that trust is misplaced you probably shouldn't be playing games with that person anyway.
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We had a similar situation in a 'space opera' campaign. Due to the nature of the skill system, everyone had 'specialized' their skills to use the PC vessel when in space.
So guess what became the *focal point* of the campaign?
...every other episode for about two years was some effort to steal/destroy/sabotage/etc the vessel.
Until at a certain point the PCs managed to uncover a significant army to protect the vessel.
And three crime bosses worth of grunts and footsoldiers died to the shipboard defenses...
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Let me put on my sinister GM hat. Bwahaha.
It is amusing to challenge a PC by hitting his weak point and seeing how he reacts. Thus, I would consider throwing a sunder or disarm specialist, or even a Rust Monster, at a PC who relies on a single rapier. Of course, when I pick on a PC, I leave him an escape, even if it is retreating while his companions take care of the challenge. Or maybe a warning that Rust Monsters have been spotted in the area, so they can arm themselves with non-metallic weapons in advance.
Next, I would challenge him with an incorporeal creature that cannot be hit by non-magical weapons. Heh heh heh.
And that would be it. No need to repeatedly remind the character about an ordinary weakness. Furthermore, boss battles ought to be fights at the limit of everyone's abilities where they need to work together, so forcing a PC out of combat during such a battle would be no fun.
Once an adventure path had the party summoned to a local prince. They could carry neither weapons nor spellbooks in his presence, with two exceptions. They were outside at a parade and were attacked. The prince's guard grouped to protect the prince, but the enemies were after the party. The PCs had to improvise weapons from implements borrowed from nearby vendors or take weapons from fallen enemies. The first exception was the fighter with the two-handed archetype. I made an excuse why he could still carry his greatsword, because that was the essence of the character. The second exception was the ninja, who had succeeded at skill checks to hide weapons on herself.
It is fun for a player to say afterward, "I didn't have my rapier, but I still won. I am that awesome."
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I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.
That's nice, but unhelpful by itself. Can you clarify how you've avoided it? Did you luck out and play with GMs who are sympathetic to martial character's reliance on gear? Do you carry spares? Do you not play builds that are reliant on a single weapon, or weapons at all? Information on how you've sidestepped this problem would be very useful.
I've never run into the problem either, tbqh, but I've always been aware that it's a potential problem and to a degree I am at the GM's mercy. I try to carry spares, but higher level weapons are significantly expensive and martials more than any others are reliant on using WBL as efficiently as possible.
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There was also the campaign that would *deliberately* make it impossible for folks to carry a weapon (of any modern 'space-energy' sort) and thought it was a way to really shut down players and their O/P BLASTERS OF DEWM!
Yeah. After one scenario of that my spy-ish sort started carrying three duffel bags to mission briefings.
1 bag with 'Primitive weapons' (no moving parts, knives, staves, poles, etc)
1 bag with 'Primitive Ammunition weapons' (Assault Rifles, Shotguns, submachineguns, pistols, etc)
1 bag with 'Social Party weapons' (All the things a spy could easily sneak into most parties like garrotes, steel-heeled shoes, etc)
It was a blast when (predictably) our ship got blasted and landed on some planet where energy weapons didn't work.
The rest of the party "OMG, GONNA DIE, my magic beamsword doesn't work!"
Spy: "THIS here is a BOOMSTICK. You cycle the action, and point it at the enemy, then pull this lever. Don't point it at other team members."
GM had a melt-down...
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Are you perhaps playing in this game?
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Are you perhaps playing in this game?
No.
But the parallels are eerie.
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Carry spares. At high levels, you're often wanting to carry a silver, cold iron, and adamantine version of your weapon so you can switch it out as needed to overcome DR.
At high levels, a +4 handles all of that.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
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My martial characters always have a spare weapon in cas of thief, sunder or anything else. The yare prepared in case of things turning bad but none of them rely only on their specific weapon
My only characters that are paranoid about their stuff are wizards !! Becasue wehn you lose your spellbook, you are just a walking wand ...
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Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?Carry spares. At high levels, you're often wanting to carry a silver, cold iron, and adamantine version of your weapon so you can switch it out as needed to overcome DR.
This admittedly still leaves you in a bad place in a no-weapons-allowed situation. A called weapon may help there, if you can leave it within 100' without attracting suspicion. Other options include gloves of storing, and, of course, using sleight of hand to conceal a weapon.
At high levels you're likely using at least a +3 weapon, which bypasses most material DR (+4 for adamantine). But spare weapons are still a good idea for adventuring.
For no weapons allowed places, gloves of storing are pretty awesome. Outside of that, if you're low level, slight of hand and hope. Honestly, unless your DM is a tool, you should be able to get your hands on something. Disarm a mook, grab a table leg, pick up the halfling, whatever is to hand.
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My only characters that are paranoid about their stuff are wizards !! Becasue wehn you lose your spellbook, you are just a walking wand ...
Get a bookplate of recall.
This metal bookplate is inscribed with mystical words in Draconic, leaving space for a single written name. When the bookplate is glued to the inside cover of a book, the named individual may speak the title of the book to summon it as if using instant summons. This ability functions once per day.
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If your PC 'becomes useless' simply because you lose access to a single weapon. That is the Players fault, not the GM's.
And besides, dealing with adversity is half the fun of playing this game.
Really? If you are a swashbuckler and have your sword taken away in a fey realm, a realm where you are told you can not get any replacement sword since fey don't use weapons, that is your fault?
Please remind me never to play in any game that you GM.
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I'm going to interpret "you get your sword taken away, and can't get a new one right now" as a sign from the GM that the next few encounters aren't things to be solved through violence, and I'll cooperate with that.
If I get my sword taken away, can't get a new one, and am expected to fight stuff that would be an appropriate challenge if I did have my sword. This is a borderline breach of GM/PC trust.
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If you have a cleric/druid/sorc/wizard with the appropriate spell, they can always stone shape you a stone mere club replacement for the time being. B or P 1handed and fragile with 1d4.
You can even try to craft it yourself, untrained. DC12 with a -2 for no tools. If you make the check (12) it only takes you 1 day! Presumably you can find an adequate rock and stone outside.
Or a wushu dart out of bone or obsidian (might be harder to find obsidian). Its a little harder of a check DC15 (-2) but still doable. Hopefully you could have your smartest person in the group craft it for you.
Not good for a swashbuckler, but clubs are always free. If you can get outside, and pass a DC12 (-2) check, you can craft a club without tools.
Really? If you are a swashbuckler and have your sword taken away in a fey realm, a realm where you are told you can not get any replacement sword since fey don't use weapons, that is your fault?If your PC 'becomes useless' simply because you lose access to a single weapon. That is the Players fault, not the GM's.
And besides, dealing with adversity is half the fun of playing this game.
If you went to a place where weapons are scarce and didn't have a back-up weapon, that is entirely your fault !!
"GM: hey, guys this is the adventure!"
"Player: no thanks, GM, I might get my own weapon stolen!"
"GM: oh, OK, then… Anyone else want to gym? That I'm out of ideas/I haven't prepared anything else. Also, you are very paranoid."
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Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
Those have been around since at least 1995, but before that, you couldnt just buy any magic weapon you liked, so it balances out.
To the OP: do you worry about getting your spellbook taken away?
Carry a spare, they are cheap.
Most DMs wont pull those shenanigans, unless the monster is part of a AP or something, and certainly if you hit some ooze and it melts your weapon that's mostly your fault.
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That's nice, but unhelpful by itself. Can you clarify how you've avoided it? Did you luck out and play with GMs who are sympathetic to martial character's reliance on gear?
I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.
martial character's reliance on gear? You ever tried playing a wizard without a spellbook?
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My only characters that are paranoid about their stuff are wizards !! Becasue wehn you lose your spellbook, you are just a walking wand ...Get a bookplate of recall.
This metal bookplate is inscribed with mystical words in Draconic, leaving space for a single written name. When the bookplate is glued to the inside cover of a book, the named individual may speak the title of the book to summon it as if using instant summons. This ability functions once per day.
will the ashes come to you, too?
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There are weapons (iron brush, bladed scarf) that are specifically designed for situations when it is impolite to bring a weapon. If I have a player who has put resources into those sorts of contingencies (or improvised weapon feats) then as a GM I will try to make them look smart by giving them a scenario to shine in.
Personally, I always give thought to contingencies for my characters being separated from their equipment. Maybe I'll take the birthmark trait, or take IUS, or a few points in a relevant craft skill, or maybe I'll decide not to worry about it, but I always consider the possibility.
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At it's core this is a cooperative game and to turn the mechanics (the reliance if certain classes on their weapon) against the player in an overwhelming manner is poor encounter design. On the flip side, the mechanics are also part of the world your character lives in. The character is aware of rust monsters, sundering, disarming, and diplomatic disarmament so should make reasonable preparations for those situations.
So your Character should prepare for the threats and challenges that they can predict and consider probable. The wilds barbarian caries a spare single handed weapon in case he needs to fight while climbing or grappled, the spy has a dagger enchanted to make it easier to conceal. You as a player shouldn't need to prepare for encounter design that is intentionally cheap unless that is the theme of the game, discuss with your GM and group the intended power-level and theme of the game and plan accordingly.
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martial character's reliance on gear? You ever tried playing a wizard without a spellbook?That's nice, but unhelpful by itself. Can you clarify how you've avoided it? Did you luck out and play with GMs who are sympathetic to martial character's reliance on gear?
I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.
Just because a wizard is reliant on a spellbook doesn't mean a martial isn't reliant on gear in general. The two ideas can and do exist.
I would be just as worried about playing wizards, if I played Wizards. I don't, for that very reason- I play sorcerers.
My post was simply asking people who don't have a problem to explain how they get around the problem, instead of just dropping condescending replies and moving on. And to be fair, most have, but a lot of the advice is "have an understanding with your GM" or "carry a spare" (which doesn't cover all the situations the TC asked about, specifically when weapons aren't allowed period). (EDIT: Actually, the other recent posts have been really good on this front!)
I'm genuinely interested in seeing people's strategies for dealing with these kinds of things.
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martial character's reliance on gear? You ever tried playing a wizard without a spellbook?That's nice, but unhelpful by itself. Can you clarify how you've avoided it? Did you luck out and play with GMs who are sympathetic to martial character's reliance on gear?
I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.
I call them "Sorcerers".
At Level 4, the cost of getting a second +1 weapon is 2000. The Wizard, whose spellbook has 13 spells (9 Level 1, 4 Level 2) plus cantrips (we'll say he only really uses like 6 of them), can get a second spellbook for 260gp (5gp per cantrip, 10gp per 1st-level spell, 40gp for every 2nd-level spell). At Level 10, getting a second +3 weapon costs 18,000gp. Getting a spare spell book costs 2,280gp. At Level 20, getting a backup +10 weapon costs 200,000gp. Keeping a backup spellbook costs 14,720gp (assuming you pick only Level 9 spells after Level 17).
This math assumes the Wizard scribes no additional spells into their book, just the ones gained from leveling up, but they could typically scribe four times as many spells into their first book as well as a spare and still have gold left over compared to a martial trying to buy a second weapon. Spellbooks are also easier to protect since you don't need to get them out during the day, so you can just keep it in a Bag of Holding or something for safekeeping whereas the martial character's weapon is put within Sunder range nearly every combat. The Wizard may be reliant on their spellbook, but they're often only reliant on their spellbook and have a much easier time protecting or replacing it compared to their martial buddies, who have to worry about their armor and weapons.
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It's not just weapons. Martials are more reliant on gear in general.
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I run a Bonded Object Wizard in PFS and I generally feel safe about my gear. Backup spell pouches are a no brainer, and as mentioned before, a Spellbook is hardly an in-combat risk since it isn't out in the open to be disarmed or sundered.
My "martials" include a Summoner and an unarmed strike Vigilante, who are just fine. I also have a lance using mounted Summoner. He once has his weapon disarmed mid charge by a mook, and it was.... kinda funny. We still won, and since that day I've carried a backup.
A trick works once, then a good adventurer learns and grows. And this can be fun!
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I prefer to embrace the situation. I played an eldritch knight that arcane-bonded his longsword. It was his primary weapon and he used Hand of the Apprentice to throw it every chance he got. Of course it was stolen. But our GM made recovering it a cool side adventure.
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My first pathfinder character was a dual-wielding ranger. Aside from his main two swords he had an efficient quiver with a bow, several javelins, and some quarterstaves.
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Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
It's mostly a "thing" on charop boards like this one.
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As others have said I would just carry a back up weapon. It doesn't have to be your OMGWTFOP weapon of choice, but a simple +1 which lets you keep your actions up whilst you try to recover your previous one.
As a GM I have not yet targeted a players gear but for my next campaign I might consider it to try and add a challenge which isn't "more/bigger things to kill".
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As others have said I would just carry a back up weapon. It doesn't have to be your OMGWTFOP weapon of choice, but a simple +1 which lets you keep your actions up whilst you try to recover your previous one.
As a GM I have not yet targeted a players gear but for my next campaign I might consider it to try and add a challenge which isn't "more/bigger things to kill".
Targeting gear is mostly a dick move.
It affects some characters more than others, martials more than casters, and melee martials most of all. A fighter without his weapon is a commoner with a few extra hit points. It also has a lasting effect on future encounters. If a characters loses his stuff in the first encounter then he is much weaker in all subsequent encounters.Then there is the meta problem. The player has to recalculate all the math for his character.
Since gear really is an integral part of a character what you are effectively doing is taking away character abilities. It is much like taking away class or racial abilities. If you would not take away 4th level spells or wildshape you should not be taking away most combat gear.
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As others have said I would just carry a back up weapon. It doesn't have to be your OMGWTFOP weapon of choice, but a simple +1 which lets you keep your actions up whilst you try to recover your previous one.
As a GM I have not yet targeted a players gear but for my next campaign I might consider it to try and add a challenge which isn't "more/bigger things to kill".
Targeting gear is mostly a dick move.
It affects some characters more than others, martials more than casters, and melee martials most of all. A fighter without his weapon is a commoner with a few extra hit points. It also has a lasting effect on future encounters. If a characters loses his stuff in the first encounter then he is much weaker in all subsequent encounters.Then there is the meta problem. The player has to recalculate all the math for his character.
Since gear really is an integral part of a character what you are effectively doing is taking away character abilities. It is much like taking away class or racial abilities. If you would not take away 4th level spells or wildshape you should not be taking away most combat gear.
To be clear I don't plan on destroying equipment but rather a break here or a disarm there. Something which makes the martial classes have to react to the encounter in a new way.
Also remembering this is a team based game, the rest of the party can help and adapt to the situation to assist the martial class regaining their weapon, or just helping them through the encounter so they can regain their weapon after the fight and continue.
I don't see this as any more of a dick move than using Maze on the fighter, silencing a caster, cutting a divine off from their deity for an encounter, using a Rust Monster/Acid Pit or killing a mounted characters mount.
The previous are all real dangers that players can face in an encounter, why should disarming/breaking a characters gear be considered any more of a dick move than those.
It makes players think outside the box and come out of their comfort zone rather than being protected from disabling abilities because it might make them have a bad encounter.
That said I also know my group and each GM should (outside of PFS) have an idea of how their regular group will react to such moves. My players will grumble I am sure, but I doubt any will be highly outraged they suffered a mishap during a session.
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It's mostly a "thing" on charop boards like this one.Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.I have yet to see this be a meaningful problem in 4 decades of gaming.Well then...for me, I'm paranoid. For a few sessions I played a swashbuckler and really enjoyed it. But gave the character up...because I'm paranoid that something will happen to his rapier. And once that happens he'll be worthless.
The enemy steals it
He gets disarmed
The rapier gets sundered
He is in a situation where no weapons are allowed
Etc...So I eventually decided to go with an invulnerable rager barbarian with the beast totem tree. The AC of beast totem and the pounce of greater beast totem are awesome, but for me...being able to grow claws for lesser beast totem is just as necessary. Because it means that the martial character can always fight, regardless of what the situation is. Disarm him? Growl and swipe their face off. Be told that no weapons are allowed in the negotiation room? Howl as you disembowel the diplomat with your hands. Sure, it is rare to need it, but I can't live without the option of doing something.
Anyone else have this hangup when making a character? And what is it that you do to ensure that you aren't one item dependent?
I forgot that people that have been playing for decades have access to a complete database of the games played aroudn the world and so they can tell what it's common and what it's not.
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Most likely crippling forced-specialization was not a thing most of those decades.
Those have been around since at least 1995, but before that, you couldnt just buy any magic weapon you liked, so it balances out.
In ad&d a longsword specialized fighter that found a powerful battleataxe would not mind using it. The fact that you couldn't buy whatever weapon you liked hurted less.
In PF a swashbuckler with his feats on a longsword that finds a powerful rapier will keep using his longsword. That's crippling specialization.