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The unchained barbarian isn't meant to be as powerful, it's purpose is to be simpler rather than having the character need different stats for a hundred things when they rage. It succeeds at it's intended purpose.
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Yeah, gotta love how 2 of the 4 "unchained" classes are far more restricted and generally worse (read: chained).
I hate the UBarb, yet I agree with Milo as well. The idea was a shadow nerf and making it so there'd be less on-the-fly recalculation. I will outright refuse to play one. What I need from the Barbarian is the ability to rage and flex my way out of a pesky hide shirt, and the UBarb doesn't do that for me.
One positive thing is that some of the exclusive Unchained Rage Powers are decent. Too bad the Unchained classes haven't had much support since release.
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You can sorta tell that the UBarb was mostly meant to be a training wheels class for people who thought the normal version was too complicated, while the other three Unchained classes were actually meant to replace their troubled counterparts. The unchained summoner has neatly stepped into the old summoner's shoes, while the UnRogue has more or less done the same. Monks are a little more ambiguous, but unchained monks are brought up sometimes in their archetypes.I hate the UBarb, yet I agree with Milo as well. The idea was a shadow nerf and making it so there'd be less on-the-fly recalculation. I will outright refuse to play one. What I need from the Barbarian is the ability to rage and flex my way out of a pesky hide shirt, and the UBarb doesn't do that for me.
One positive thing is that some of the exclusive Unchained Rage Powers are decent. Too bad the Unchained classes haven't had much support since release.
I also hate the USummoner for also being a failed shadow nerf. URogue is fine, I wish UMonk wasn't forbidden from virtually all archetypes for no discernible reason.
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When you think barbarian, what words come to mind?
Honestly, before 3rd edition, barbarian meant Celtic, Goth, or Cimmerian to me. None of which meant "rage" to me. "Rage" is berserker in my head, and berserker is directly attached to Viking first in my head (although I think Celts had a version)
I think it's sad that a class has to be connected to a shtick to be interesting to players. Although I might be wrong, Unearthed Arcana 2nd Ed Barbarian never seemed preoccupied with rage. And Conan the RPG certainly had no problem developing a barbarian that wasn't cartoonish.
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I love the UnBarb.
I feel like it's a much better designed class than the Barb and has more room to be generally useful.
Barb is riddled with cheese and math issues.
You could easily print cool options for the UnBarb - lack of variety is not a design issue, it's a publishing one.
@JosMartigan: You are a king among men.
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The classes were modified for different reasons.
1. The Rogue because the class badly needed help.
2. The Barbarian because too many players complained about their characters dying as soon as they hit unconscious.
3. The Summoner because the class was simply too broken in both the Eidolon, and it's early access to extremely powerful wizard spells.
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Barb is riddled with cheese and math issues.
Yup, "Rage Cycling" is why I'm not ever going to play a Barbarian that's not of the Unchained variety. It's a totally valid interaction of rules, but it's cheesy beyond my tolerance level.
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I still think UnBarb is slightly worse than Core Barbarian regardless of exploits, and I don't see how "Rage Cycling" is so intensely cheap. Why design an entire replacement class that's slightly worse at most things just to prevent one tactic?
The problem with UnSummoner is that they screwed with the Eidolon a little too much. Unchained requires your concept to specifically fit a particular type of outsider and cannot be themed to be anything else, AND adds a nonsensical alignment restriction to the options you do get.
that and didnt unchained also remove some evolutions and a bunch of summoner spells too?I still think UnBarb is slightly worse than Core Barbarian regardless of exploits, and I don't see how "Rage Cycling" is so intensely cheap. Why design an entire replacement class that's slightly worse at most things just to prevent one tactic?
The problem with UnSummoner is that they screwed with the Eidolon a little too much. Unchained requires your concept to specifically fit a particular type of outsider and cannot be themed to be anything else, AND adds a nonsensical alignment restriction to the options you do get.
I know it at least delayed some spells, such as fixing the level Haste is available at, and yeah, I'm pretty sure that a couple evolutions got axed (and the Aquatic base). The massive restrictions on Eidolon designing are the real problem, though.
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so summoners instead of getting hast one level earlier than wizards now get it 2 levels later? thats a pretty heft nerf, in addition to edolons being much less customisable(less evolutions and evolution points) and the fact most of the archetypes cant be used with unchained summoners got hit really hardI know it at least delayed some spells, such as fixing the level Haste is available at, and yeah, I'm pretty sure that a couple evolutions got axed (and the Aquatic base). The massive restrictions on Eidolon designing are the real problem, though.that and didnt unchained also remove some evolutions and a bunch of summoner spells too?I still think UnBarb is slightly worse than Core Barbarian regardless of exploits, and I don't see how "Rage Cycling" is so intensely cheap. Why design an entire replacement class that's slightly worse at most things just to prevent one tactic?
The problem with UnSummoner is that they screwed with the Eidolon a little too much. Unchained requires your concept to specifically fit a particular type of outsider and cannot be themed to be anything else, AND adds a nonsensical alignment restriction to the options you do get.
Yet Master Summoner walks away virtually untouched.
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I didn't mind the spell nerf to summoners, except for maybe losing the higher summon monster spells from their spell list. But the loss of customization in the eidolons was pretty terrible. Honestly, I'm really surprised the standard action SLA remained unscathed. That thing should be at least a full round action, or limited to only one creature at a time.
Sure, they could have thought about that if they had 20/20 vision like you, who sees Unchained after Occult Adventures is out. But then again, that's just your preference too.
Stances are fine. They are powerful, they scale well, and they are a great way to gate super strong rage powers like Deadly Accuracy or Ymeri's Fire.
I like everything about UnBarb except move to activate stances and no baseline bonus to CMB while raging.
And you know what? That's a much shorter list than I have for 99% of the other classes. I could go on and on about many others. For the UnBarb? That one line.
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Huh. Strange. I came to a thread about he worst class, but Swashbucklers don't get a Rage ability. You might want to reread their entry, Cryn, I think you got the names mixed up.
But in all seriousness. Unchained Barbarian is at least functional. Stances as a move action is annoying and the really should have a way to make it a Swift at some point, but you're otherwise dealing with a 4 skill, full BAB chasis with a ready supply of toggled better-at-fighting buffing and access to a modest list of talents.
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UnBarb is also better at dex builds.
Eh, by the same token the issues with the regular barbarian were pretty minor imo. The fighter needed it a lot more.IMO even the gunslinger, cleric or the sorcerer could have been there (the latter two more for a facelift than anything else).
The UBarb is workable with a few minor fixes - or at least a feat that lets them enter stance as a swift action when starting a rage - but I just don't see why it was necessary or wanted enough to merit the space in the book.
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I love the UC book, so much of the content is an interesting alternative that I try to incorporate as much as possible. I would love a second unchained book.
As for the classes; had to start somewhere. I'm almost 100% certain the fighter would have been a poison chalice for the first UC book. So many people disregard the attraction of a fighter and cry for it to be improved, improved, improved. I think they should be reigning in other classes at higher levels to bring about parity.
UCB is excellent for non strength builds and 2W builds. I think the "simpler" rage is much more maneagable at the table. I like the stances and think they scale fine. I do agree there should be a way to reduce them to swift actions, perhaps move to start and swift to change once in a rage. As far as classes go this is far from the worst. Purpose of the UC book was not to produce super classes.
I think kinetecist is possibly a worse class, and I find nearly all full casters far worse to have at the table. Casters are so limited at low level (except perhaps the slumber witch), great in the middle levels and then abysmally unbalanced at higher levels. If anything a spellcasters unchained should come out that nerfs higher level play for casters, from around 11th on that severely limits 7-9 spellcasting.
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I actually quite like the direction they were going with UBarb but it needs a few alterations to bring it in line with Barbarian to wver call it a simplification.
1. Add a +2 to Fortitude save while raging, to match Core Barb rage. This increases by the same amount as attack and damage as the barbarian levels and gains their rage inprovements.
2. Add the attack and damage bonus as a bonus to Strength checks, including Strength skill checks (Climb and Swim), and to breaking things.
3. Give a 50% to the damage bonus while two-handing a melee weapon or using a sole primary natural attack. Reduce the damage bonus by 50% with off-hand attacks and secondary natural attacks. I personally don't have a problem with barbarians now getting bonuses to ranged attacks, but I wouldn't recommend the damage increase to two-handed weapons without also enforcing the reduction with off-hand attacks.
4. Raging Vitality gives an additional point of temporary hit points per Hit Dice and a +1 Fortitude bonus while raging, stacking with any bonus and temporary hit points from rage. I just felt this feat, which seems to be used by every barbarian, needed an update.
Otherwise, I think it is fine.
I will admit, Spell Sunder being lost is a damn shame, but I think it's a tad bold to claim that the developers trying to pull back a mechanic the barbarian was never intended to have is a bad thing. Rage cycling has been a problematic mistake in the rules for a long while and I am not really shedding a tear at its loss.
Besides, I like Superstition and Witch Hunter as rage powers better. Way more thematic for a spell-fearing angry warrior who breaks anything magic. And Witch Killer procs almost 100% of the time at higher levels.
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@Garbage: Barbs don't get Raging Vitality for the extra CON. They get it to rage while unconscious so they don't die from the removal of rage HP after dropping. UnBarbs don't need it which is good.
Fair enough. All other changes should be fine though. I don't actually play barbarians much and have only played UBarb, and misattributed why they got that power. Oops! But I know at least the changes to rage should help keep things balanced with old barbarian. I'll probably propose the changes to my group at some point.
Fair enough. All other changes should be fine though. I don't actually play barbarians much and have only played UBarb, and misattributed why they got that power. Oops! But I know at least the changes to rage should help keep things balanced with old barbarian. I'll probably propose the changes to my group at some point.
I'd back you up on Fort saves and Strength checks/CMB, but the change when using weapons is unnecessary. It's a grand total of -2 damage at level 20 if you are not 2Hing, and not even, because now you have access to powerful stances.
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I wish UMonk wasn't forbidden from virtually all archetypes for no discernible reason.
It's not no reason. Many of the core monk archetypes would have been freakin' broken with the Umonk.
Ex: The archetypes which give up Flurry (Master of Many Styles/Sensei) would be giving up FAR less as a Umonk, since along with that flurry they're giving up pseudo full BAB, while the Umonk has actual full BAB already.
Now - some archetypes would have been okay with Umonk, but I can see why they didn't want to go through and parse which ones, instead starting fresh with new archetypes designed with the Umonk chasis in mind.
Also the unMonk gains many of its abilities at different levels than the core monk, which would be very confusing/abusable with the changes made with archetypes.
Fair enough. All other changes should be fine though. I don't actually play barbarians much and have only played UBarb, and misattributed why they got that power. Oops! But I know at least the changes to rage should help keep things balanced with old barbarian. I'll probably propose the changes to my group at some point.I'd back you up on Fort saves and Strength checks/CMB, but the change when using weapons is unnecessary. It's a grand total of -2 damage at level 20 if you are not 2Hing, and not even, because now you have access to powerful stances.
That's true. I saw it as more about fixing consistency problems if anything. At the very least, I encourage the first two.
Actually, since Rage is a static increase to attack rolls, doesn't that apply to CMB already?
Fair enough. All other changes should be fine though. I don't actually play barbarians much and have only played UBarb, and misattributed why they got that power. Oops! But I know at least the changes to rage should help keep things balanced with old barbarian. I'll probably propose the changes to my group at some point.I'd back you up on Fort saves and Strength checks/CMB, but the change when using weapons is unnecessary. It's a grand total of -2 damage at level 20 if you are not 2Hing, and not even, because now you have access to powerful stances.That's true. I saw it as more about fixing consistency problems if anything. At the very least, I encourage the first two.
Actually, since Rage is a static increase to attack rolls, doesn't that apply to CMB already?
You might be right, it does say melee attack rolls, and not melee weapon attack rolls.
Huh. Strange. I came to a thread about he worst class, but Swashbucklers don't get a Rage ability. You might want to reread their entry, Cryn, I think you got the names mixed up.
The Swashbuckler gets a lot less hate because the concept of a "agile charming swordmaster" is so much fun that people tend to like the idea of the swashbuckler, it's just unfortunate that the mechanical conceits of the game make the swashbuckler unlikely to have anything useful to do beyond the first few levels (they do good damage when they can full attack, but not good enough that the various casters around you would care to keep you around.)
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Scales well? Secret, you tell me with a straight face that there is a single stance power you would spend a move action in the first round of combat to activate at level 12 instead of just getting in the damage from a pounce, and I'll call you... well, someone not versed in ending encounters.
I'll hop in here. There are instances where you can't charge, so you can't pounce. Also, I'd point out that there is a stance that gives you the ability to heal your temp hp from rage in unchained barbarian, which stacks with your damage reduction.
A lot of your arguments seem to boil down to the fact that unchained barbarian isn't your idea of barbarian, so it's the worst written class. I'm not saying that you can't have a favorite way to play a character, I'm just saying that you should acknowledge that your way of playing a barbarian isn't the same as someone else's way of playing a barbarian, which is fine; I think, however, that there are plenty of classes or archetypes that need working on, and the unchained barbarian isn't one of them (I'm looking at you synthesist summoner!).
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As for the classes; had to start somewhere. I'm almost 100% certain the fighter would have been a poison chalice for the first UC book. So many people disregard the attraction of a fighter and cry for it to be improved, improved, improved. I think they should be reigning in other classes at higher levels to bring about parity.
The Fighter's problem is that it has no conceivable gimmick to call its own. I hit stuff isn't strong enough to have a foundation when every single class in the entire game can do that in more dynamic and interesting ways.
Fighter: I hit stuff.Alchemist: I turn into a raging monster and hit stuff. Also I throw heavy explosives around.
Barbarian: Same as Alchemist.
Brawler: I know all the feats.
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Fighter has a clear lack of anything. I hit stuff, but not better than others, so that's not my gig.
His "thing" is heavy armor with lots of combat feats and tied to a specific weapon. In core only world, that's his gig.
now since it's generally viewed that feat < class ability. AND that you only need X combat feats for your build getting even more combat feats isn't helpful.
So it's the fact that the fighter has nothing special it can do (yes running normal speed in full-plate doesn't count), is why we want it looked at.
For a barb to reach parity it'd have to have rage at lv1 and then gain nothing else but more rage rounds and the rage improvements. Then it is similar to the fighter.
Paladin and ranger would need to lose spells, Animal companions, basically all class features gained after lv2.
So if classes only gained class abilities at lv1 and nothing else, then they are all basically at parity with the fighter.
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barb has 4 skills per level, fast movement, rage, and d12 dit die. rage lasts long enough for every round of every fight of every day most of the time.
Fighter has 2 skills, heavy armor, and a combat feat.
both take power attack and fighter takes weapon focus.
the barb can get heavy armor and get mithral full-plate and basically equal to the fighter in AC. still moving 40ft instead of 30ft.
the fighter needs toughness to match base HP. needs iron will to match the will save. weapon specialization and weapon training to match rage bonuses on THW. no way to get the movespeed.
so much of the "class features" the fighter gets for the first 7 levels are used to match the lv1 barb's class features and a good amount of gold. like it's using 4 feats with only 2 being combat feats, and fighter training to match these stats that the barb has lv1. and that's just DPR effectiveness, outside of all the bonuses the barb gets while raging from rage powers.
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Yet Master Summoner walks away virtually untouched.so summoners instead of getting hast one level earlier than wizards now get it 2 levels later? thats a pretty heft nerf, in addition to edolons being much less customisable(less evolutions and evolution points) and the fact most of the archetypes cant be used with unchained summoners got hit really hardI know it at least delayed some spells, such as fixing the level Haste is available at, and yeah, I'm pretty sure that a couple evolutions got axed (and the Aquatic base). The massive restrictions on Eidolon designing are the real problem, though.that and didnt unchained also remove some evolutions and a bunch of summoner spells too?I still think UnBarb is slightly worse than Core Barbarian regardless of exploits, and I don't see how "Rage Cycling" is so intensely cheap. Why design an entire replacement class that's slightly worse at most things just to prevent one tactic?
The problem with UnSummoner is that they screwed with the Eidolon a little too much. Unchained requires your concept to specifically fit a particular type of outsider and cannot be themed to be anything else, AND adds a nonsensical alignment restriction to the options you do get.
Master Summoner using the new rules has a major shift in it's spells. It also just as restricted in using eidolon forms as any other unchained summoner, so it's far from untouched. It also remains not allowed in PFS.
I also hate the UBarb, though my problem isn't the class itself but the design choices that went into it. The hot mess it was when it first came out pointed out a few of those flaws (Sunder Enchantment on the allowed list, prereqs for it were not) but the issue for me will always be Dragon Totem Wings.
Dragon Totem Wings suck. It's a capstone, so there's two prereq powers. They take a standard action to start (or two rage rounds for immediate). They cost an extra rage round every round. They don't play well with rage cycling. And for that, you get a fly speed equal to your land speed. That's it. On the list of things the UBarb can take from the normal list is Dragon Totem, Dragon Totem Resilience (still needed a FAQ), and explicitly not Dragon Totem Wings (as well as any other way for a barbarian to fly in-class). This was clearly a conscious design choice and not because of how powerful or poorly worded it was. Spell Sunder is definitely very powerful and open to interpretation. Dragon Totem Wings wasn't even the controversial Dragon Totem rage power. That one made it through with no changes whatsoever (until it was finally FAQed in April 2016). Yet both options were explicitly targeted for removal.
The UBarb isn't a upgrade or downgrade or sidegrade. It's Paizo trying to force the "right" kind of barbarian, presumably instead of all those other things people made. And that's why I hate it.
It's not a "force" of anything. You can still even play the original barbarian and rogue on PFS if you so desire. It's nothing more than an additional option.
barb has 4 skills per level, fast movement, rage, and d12 dit die. rage lasts long enough for every round of every fight of every day most of the time.
Fighter has 2 skills, heavy armor, and a combat feat.
both take power attack and fighter takes weapon focus.the barb can get heavy armor and get mithral full-plate and basically equal to the fighter in AC. still moving 40ft instead of 30ft.
In a world where mithral dosn't rain from the sky, the barbarian either loses AC or speed to the Fighter after 7th level.
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The unchained barbarian isn't meant to be as powerful, it's purpose is to be simpler rather than having the character need different stats for a hundred things when they rage. It succeeds at it's intended purpose.If you say so? I don't see how switching between a series of mutually exclusive rage powers that all alter numbers is supposed to simplify the process over having the two variables of raging/not raging. Its succeeded at simplifying numbers at the cost of conveying the concept of a barbarian. I don't call that a success.
The unchained barbarian gets more from its rage as a 2 weapon fighter while toning down the supremacy of great weapons as the only logical choice, and enables dex based (wild elf, athas halfling) style barbarians.
It opens up far more builds than it closes down.
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The annoying thing about the unchained eidolon is that it did very little to change the power of the thing. It just made it a lot less customizable and thus less fun for a lot of people.
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The annoying thing about the unchained eidolon is that it did very little to change the power of the thing. It just made it a lot less customizable and thus less fun for a lot of people.
I don't know that I would call all the base form abilities "very little", but the purchasable powers are in desperate need of an overhaul because of how uniformly mediocre they are, and they didn't get it in the unchained version for some reason.
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That's a Barb with no rage powers.
Barb lv6 has access to beast totem granting 2 AC at lv6 and 3 at lv8. That makes them have breastplate for same AC outside rage and same movespeed.
And that's before going armored hulk. Now you're in fullplate as well and you move faster than the fighter and you have beast totem, meaning your AC is equal at lv6 and greater at lv8+.
So armored hulk barb has roughly the same, often better AC, HP, movespeed, and damage than the fighter. fighter still uses 2 feats, half your bonus combat feats and class abilities up to lv7. That leaves you 2 combat feats and -2 general feats compared to the barb that has bonuses on some CMD and crits, 1 rage power and no general feats needing to be used. So lets say a combat feat = any feat.
that makes fighter () = (bonuses to CMD and crit negation and 1 rage power)... and that's before considering that extra rage power to get more than a feat is available to the barb.
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When I think barbarian, I think Hradani, a race of humans for whom the Rage was a magically induced genetic modification resulting in a state that made them literally mindless berserkers who would kill everything and every one in their path. 1200 years later, though, some Hradani have learned to control the Rage, invoking it when they need it and turning it off when they no longer need it, all the while remaining thinking beings. The Rage gives them enhanced stamina, speed, and power — which for a people who are mostly over six feet tall and correspondingly broad is nothing to sneeze at.