Create Pit vs Paralyzed Opponent


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Question: Can a paralyzed, or otherwise immobile, character move out of the area of affect of Create Pit or similar spells on a successful reflex save?

Question is now appropriately phrased for a FAQ request.

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Liberty's Edge

Yes but the reflex save would be class base plus any magic then -5 (because 0 Dex). PCs or relevant NPCs are heroic you know ...


No because the spell requires you to jump and if you're paralyzed then you can't move.


Paralyzed wrote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

No. Paralyzed means you can't move. The status description is quite clear that the only thing your character can still do is a purely mental action.


Yes. You still get a save.

The character is BEING moved by the spell effect. They are not moving. Someone else can pick up the paralyzed character and move them, and so can riding the very edge of whatever reality warping effect it is you tried to use to put one space inside of another.


From the PRD, under the section about Dexterity:

"Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly" (emphasis mine).

And from the section about saves:

"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws" (again with the emphasis, me. Always with the emphasis.)

It has long bothered me that it did not seem that RAW excluded Reflex saves for immobile creatures. The above quotes suggest that RAW do require you be able to move in order to get a Reflex save. My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.


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Interesting arguments on both sides. FAQing.


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quibblemuch wrote:

It has long bothered me that it did not seem that RAW excluded Reflex saves for immobile creatures. The above quotes suggest that RAW do require you be able to move in order to get a Reflex save. My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.

Chains of light imply the contrary

"A creature targeted by this spell is held immobile by glowing golden chains composed of pure light. The creature is paralyzed and held in place, but may attempt a new saving throw each round to end the effect."


Nicos wrote:

Chains of light imply the contrary

"A creature targeted by this spell is held immobile by glowing golden chains composed of pure light. The creature is paralyzed and held in place, but may attempt a new saving throw each round to end the effect."

I read that specific example as supporting my general interpretation. That is, the fact that this specific spell calls out that a new Reflex saving throw can be attempted, means that the general case assumes a Reflex saving throw cannot be attempted. Otherwise there'd be no need to say it. Chains of light is an exception, not the rule--at least, that's how I read it.

For instance, suppose an enemy was under the effects of hold person. Subsequently, they fail the Will save to escape that paralysis, and the PC casts chains of light. By my interpretation, the fact that they are already paralyzed means that they can't attempt a Reflex save to avoid the initial chains.

Then, suppose the next round they break out of hold person. They can now make a Reflex save to escape the chains of light, but only because that specific spell allows the attempt.

Does that make sense?


Its actually an even bigger problem with pit spells as making the save will make you move to a different square. which you can't. so even if you were allowed to make the save, wether or not the result from that can even be executed is up for debate.


Nikolaus Athas wrote:
Yes but the reflex save would be class base plus any magic then -5 (because 0 Dex). PCs or relevant NPCs are heroic you know ...

Of course; the zero dex thing is explicitly defined in RAW.


Diekssus wrote:
Its actually an even bigger problem with pit spells as making the save will make you move to a different square. which you can't. so even if you were allowed to make the save, wether or not the result from that can even be executed is up for debate.

It's not though, I'll say what i said in the other thread, go through all of the pathfinder materiel you have access to and find one instance anywhere of someone/thing being denied the benefit of a successful save. It is not mechanically possible in pathfinder to not get the benefit of your save.

The underlying mechanics of a Reflex save look like this: Base save bonus + dexterity modifier. This means that even if your dexterity is a 0, giving you a -5 mod, you still have reflexes outside of that fact.

Also, in the specific case of Create Pit, everyone seems to overlook a crucial fact. The reflex save never says you have to leave the area of the spell, it only says "Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space". If there is no open space nearer than the bottom of the pit then your reflex save will send you to the bottom of the pit, minus the falling damage. This was a change to the wording of the spell implemented in 2014, specifically to handle this exact argument. Can we please stop arguing about 2-3 year old, solved issues?


quibblemuch wrote:

From the PRD, under the section about Dexterity:

"Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly" (emphasis mine).

And from the section about saves:

"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws" (again with the emphasis, me. Always with the emphasis.)

It has long bothered me that it did not seem that RAW excluded Reflex saves for immobile creatures. The above quotes suggest that RAW do require you be able to move in order to get a Reflex save. My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.

This reading would invalidate reflex saves for unattended magic items, which they explicitly have. Or in the alternative every magic item has some ability to wiggle or hop out of danger, but not otherwise move, which...no.

You need to distinguish between three related issues here:

1. Does paralysis negate all reflex saves. (But then what about unattended magic items.)
2. Does the reflex save for pit spells specifically require the ability to move/jump. (But what about things that can't jump.)
3. What's the "nearest open space" if a pit exactly fills a small room, so that there is no where to jump or move to. (Can you safely jump/fall/hand rappel to the bottom of the pit without falling damage on a successful save, since it's the closest open space?)


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quibblemuch wrote:

From the PRD, under the section about Dexterity:

"Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly" (emphasis mine).

and yet your character stays in the same spot.

Quote:
"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws" (again with

paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Move it to the other part.

Your reflex save is already taking the -5 penalty for you having a dex of zero. the dice have already taken the absurdity into account and made it extremely unlikely for you to make your save.

Quote:
It has long bothered me that it did not seem that RAW excluded Reflex saves for immobile creatures. The above quotes suggest that RAW do require you be able to move in order to get a Reflex save. My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.

It doesn't. Anywhere. It's not saying that, at all.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Why would you need to specify that evasion doesn't work when helpless if you couldn't roll a reflex save if helpless?

You get a save


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If they paralyzed conditions was intended to prevent you from making reflex saves it should say so in the description for paralysis. Since it doesn't, it doesn't do that and you get to make saves regardless.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
If they paralyzed conditions was intended to prevent you from making reflex saves it should say so in the description for paralysis. Since it doesn't, it doesn't do that and you get to make saves regardless.

And when you succeed, you can't move to a safe square (since that is prevented) and still fall in.


QuidEst wrote:
Claxon wrote:
If they paralyzed conditions was intended to prevent you from making reflex saves it should say so in the description for paralysis. Since it doesn't, it doesn't do that and you get to make saves regardless.
And when you succeed, you can't move to a safe square (since that is prevented) and still fall in.

You can't move is different from you can't BE moved.


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*blink*


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
This reading would invalidate reflex saves for unattended magic items, which they explicitly have. Or in the alternative every magic item has some ability to wiggle or hop out of danger, but not otherwise move, which...no.

I find this less objectionable than an entirely immobile character somehow dodging and moving out of the way of a fireball. But that's just a preference. And I do think the RAW allows for either interpretation.

Sovereign Court

Snowlilly wrote:

Question: Can a paralyzed, or otherwise immobile, character move out of the area of affect of Create Pit or similar spells on a successful reflex save?

Question is now appropriately phrased for a FAQ request.

Click away.

Having had no small part in the back-and-forth that caused someone to start a FAQ on this topic, I feel entitled/authorized to add some relevant points of interest to the OP:

1) the question is NOT about whether or not paralyzed/immobile targets are denied a reflex save as a matter of routine. the question is only in reference to the Create Pit line of spells because they use the following language:

"Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space."

A successful save is contingent upon moving to a square that is not part of the 10x10 aoe of the spell. And this is necessarily impossible for a paralyzed/immobile target.

2) The spell does explicitly deny any save whatsoever in the context of being pushed into the pit. So the argument that "you always get a save, no matter what" is already moot since the spell's specific rules explicitly say no save is possible under those conditions. The question that (imo) should be in the OP is whether being pushed into the pit allowing no reflex save is insight into the RAI of "make a reflex save to jump to safety to the nearest open space" for when the pit first opens underneath someone who, just like someone who is pushed outside of their own turn, cannot move to a safe square when the reflex save is ordinarily called for.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So the question comes down to how you model the movement granted by the reflex save. Is it a free action taken by the character who makes the successful save, or is it an auto-magical effect? If it's a free action, then paralysis shuts it down and you cannot take advantage of your successful save. If it's an auto-magical effect then you're moved by an effect beyond your power and your own inability to move is irrelevant. Both of these interpretations are consistent with what's written and have their pros and cons.

Both interpretations have their pros and cons. One fits best with the descriptive text, in that the character is jumping to safety, but is inconsistent with how saving throws usually work. The other is faithful to the mechanics of the spell, but the in-universe representation of what's happening is rather weird and does not fit at all with the descriptive text (it's not a jump to safety, but a magical force push). Not sure which one I prefer, but given the RAW both look like reasonable rulings to me.


Ridiculon wrote:


Also, in the specific case of Create Pit, everyone seems to overlook a crucial fact. The reflex save never says you have to leave the area of the spell, it only says "Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space". If there is no open space nearer than the bottom of the pit then your reflex save will send you to the bottom of the pit, minus the falling damage. This was a change to the wording of the spell implemented in 2014, specifically to handle this exact argument. Can we please stop arguing about 2-3 year old, solved issues?

It doens't really though, seeing as a lot of pit spells, with the exception of create pit will stil do their desired effect if you end up at the bottom. if you make a save to avoid the effect, getting damage from the effect would be a problem in and of itself or as you would say "go through all of the pathfinder materiel you have access to and find one instance anywhere of someone/thing being denied the benefit of a successful save"

Reflex saving yourself into an acid pit that keeps damaging you for the duration of a spell that you saved against seems to contradict that.


You can't take free actions when it's not your turn and its probably not your turn when you're making the save, so free action isn't the model you're looking for.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can't take free actions when it's not your turn and its probably not your turn when you're making the save, so free action isn't the model you're looking for.

"To implant a trick, the mesmerist must take a standard action and either touch a willing creature or implant the trick in himself. A creature can be the subject of only one mesmerist trick at a time. The mesmerist can activate the trick as a free action when a triggering condition is met (as defined in the trick's description), even if it isn't his turn. The subject must be within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) for the mesmerist to trigger the trick."

Hmmm.... I think you can take free actions when it is not your turn.


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nennafir wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can't take free actions when it's not your turn and its probably not your turn when you're making the save, so free action isn't the model you're looking for.

"To implant a trick, the mesmerist must take a standard action and either touch a willing creature or implant the trick in himself. A creature can be the subject of only one mesmerist trick at a time. The mesmerist can activate the trick as a free action when a triggering condition is met (as defined in the trick's description), even if it isn't his turn. The subject must be within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) for the mesmerist to trigger the trick."

Hmmm.... I think you can take free actions when it is not your turn.

Only the ones specifically called out to be allowed so.

Liberty's Edge

Talonhawke wrote:
nennafir wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can't take free actions when it's not your turn and its probably not your turn when you're making the save, so free action isn't the model you're looking for.

"To implant a trick, the mesmerist must take a standard action and either touch a willing creature or implant the trick in himself. A creature can be the subject of only one mesmerist trick at a time. The mesmerist can activate the trick as a free action when a triggering condition is met (as defined in the trick's description), even if it isn't his turn. The subject must be within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) for the mesmerist to trigger the trick."

Hmmm.... I think you can take free actions when it is not your turn.

Only the ones specifically called out to be allowed so.

Maybe the wording of the spell is implicitly giving permission with its "jump to safety" line.

Regardless, the statement "You can't take free actions when it's not your turn," is false. This is what I was pointing out.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
nennafir wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
nennafir wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can't take free actions when it's not your turn and its probably not your turn when you're making the save, so free action isn't the model you're looking for.

"To implant a trick, the mesmerist must take a standard action and either touch a willing creature or implant the trick in himself. A creature can be the subject of only one mesmerist trick at a time. The mesmerist can activate the trick as a free action when a triggering condition is met (as defined in the trick's description), even if it isn't his turn. The subject must be within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) for the mesmerist to trigger the trick."

Hmmm.... I think you can take free actions when it is not your turn.

Only the ones specifically called out to be allowed so.

Maybe the wording of the spell is implicitly giving permission with its "jump to safety" line.

Regardless, the statement "You can't take free actions when it's not your turn," is false. This is what I was pointing out.

Speaking has specif exception that allow you to make a free action out of turn.

PRD wrote:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

The basic rule is that you can't take free actions out of turn. There are a few other exceptions, but they are always called out explicitly.


Dasrak wrote:
If it's an auto-magical effect then you're moved by an effect beyond your power and your own inability to move is irrelevant.
It's a nice thought, but there are non-magical effects and abilities that still involve Reflex saves.
Trample wrote:
As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature’s trample attack is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

If there really was an auto-magical effect that takes over if you pass your Reflex save, then that would make Reflex saves vs. magical effects a completely different mechanic than Reflex saves vs. non-magical effects, which is simply not the case. This means that in order for your Reflex save to allow you to avoid an effect, it must come from your own ability to move.

The argument regarding unattended magical items is a bit of a head-scratcher, but I think an argument could be made that since the object is itself magical, it's own magical force is what helps it make a Reflex save, which isn't related to the magical contingencies behind any effect it would be saving against.


Cuup wrote:

The argument regarding unattended magical items is a bit of a head-scratcher, but I think an argument could be made that since the object is itself magical, it's own magical force is what helps it make a Reflex save, which isn't related to the magical contingencies behind any effect it would be saving against.

Of course, many player characters have magical forces of their own that impact their saving throws, the most common of which is the resistance bonus.

Relevant Text: "A resistance bonus affects saving throws, providing extra protection against harm."

So one could say that bonuses that add to saves such as luck or resistance allow characters to passively make saves that ordinarily they could not, such as Reflex saves when unconscious?


Cuup wrote:
Trample wrote:
If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage.

This becomes relevant with trample.

A creature must have an attack of opportunity available before it can chose to forgo it.

A paralyzed character does not have an attack of opportunity available to forgo.

It raises an entirely new issue: Can a character avoid a trample if he is ineligible to make an attack of opportunity?


deusvult wrote:


1) the question is NOT about whether or not paralyzed/immobile targets are denied a reflex save as a matter of routine. the question is only in reference to the Create Pit line of spells because they use the following language:

"Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space."

The problem is the spell does not dictate that creatures that are paralyzed/unconscious/tied up/can't jump don't get the save. The general rule is creatures get saves. The spell makes no exception to this except by inferring such from what many consider fluff in the spells description. So, do we follow the general rule, or make up an exception that is not clearly defined?

deusvult wrote:


2) The spell does explicitly deny any save whatsoever in the context of being pushed into the pit. So the argument that "you always get a save, no matter what" is already moot since the spell's specific rules explicitly say no save is possible under those conditions. The question that (imo) should be in the OP is whether being pushed into the pit allowing no reflex save is insight into the RAI of "make a reflex save to jump to safety to the nearest open space" for when the pit first opens underneath someone who, just like someone who is pushed outside of their own turn, cannot move to a safe square when the reflex save is ordinarily called for.

What is the saving throw needed to avoid being bull rushed over the edge of a cliff? There is none. I don't find this text relevant because it is simply a re-affirmation of rules that already exist. Characters that are physically moved by someone else into open air take the consequences.

Or, what's the saving throw to avoid the acid damage at the bottom of a acid pit for a creature that is in the pit? There isn't one. Some spells allow for continuing saving throws (hold person) but many do not after the initial save. Effects that occur well after the spell casting has been completed may or may not allow saving throws independent of the initial casting. Whether they do or not has no bearing on that initial saving throw.


Cuup wrote:

If there really was an auto-magical effect that takes over if you pass your Reflex save, then that would make Reflex saves vs. magical effects a completely different mechanic than Reflex saves vs. non-magical effects, which is simply not the case. This means that in order for your Reflex save to allow you to avoid an effect, it must come from your own ability to move.

In a world of high fantasy magic, deities and divine intervention, etc, who says the magic has to come from the source of the required reflex save itself? Just because a mechanical pit trap is not magical does not mean there cannot be magic in play effecting a characters saving throw to avoid falling in.


quibblemuch wrote:

From the PRD, under the section about Dexterity:

"Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly" (emphasis mine).

And from the section about saves:

"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws" (again with the emphasis, me. Always with the emphasis.)

It has long bothered me that it did not seem that RAW excluded Reflex saves for immobile creatures. The above quotes suggest that RAW do require you be able to move in order to get a Reflex save. My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.

The quotes you've given actually prove you get a save. Paralyzed people are allowed saves at a massive penalty. The wording of the saves implies movement according to your quotes

Therefore you "jump" to safety on a successful save because that's what the save gets you.

Describe it however you like. You save you're clear.


Cavall wrote:

The quotes you've given actually prove you get a save. Paralyzed people are allowed saves at a massive penalty. The wording of the saves implies movement according to your quotes

Therefore you "jump" to safety on a successful save because that's what the save gets you.

Describe it however you like. You save you're clear.

I think it's an order of operations interpretation issue. That is:

Order A. Paralysis forbids movement of any kind. Reflex saves require movement. Therefore paralysis forbids Reflex saves.

-OR-

Order B. Reflex saves require movement. Paralysis states a Dexterity penalty but does not explicitly forbid a Reflex save. Therefore, requiring a Reflex save (situationally, temporarily) negates paralysis.

As I've said, I think either of those interpretations is valid. It just depends on which rule you give priority to.


Lynceus wrote:

Of course, many player characters have magical forces of their own that impact their saving throws, the most common of which is the resistance bonus.

Relevant Text: "A resistance bonus affects saving throws, providing extra protection against harm."

So one could say that bonuses that add to saves such as luck or resistance allow characters to passively make saves that ordinarily they could not, such as Reflex saves when unconscious?

Snowlilly wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Trample wrote:
If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage.

This becomes relevant with trample.

A creature must have an attack of opportunity available before it can chose to forgo it.

A paralyzed character does not have an attack of opportunity available to forgo.

It raises an entirely new issue: Can a character avoid a trample if he is ineligible to make an attack of opportunity?

bbangerter wrote:
In a world of high fantasy magic, deities and divine intervention, etc, who says the magic has to come from the source of the required reflex save itself? Just because a mechanical pit trap is not magical does not mean there cannot be magic in play effecting a characters saving throw to avoid falling in.

The fact is, a level 1 Commoner with no gear who hasn't used his allotted 1 attack of opportunity makes his Reflex save vs. a trample effect. No magic or other mechanics are involved. It's a matter of the commoner physically leaping out of the way. To imply the mechanic of the saving throw would function differently if the commoner had magical gear or a Clerical connection with a deity is to imply that saving throws litterally have different mechanics on a case-by-case basis, which is simply false.


quibblemuch wrote:
My reading is that if you can't move, you can't roll a Reflex save.

Objects can make reflex saves though.

deusvult wrote:
A successful save is contingent upon moving to a square that is not part of the 10x10 aoe of the spell. And this is necessarily impossible for a paralyzed/immobile target.

It's not contingent upon it, it's the effect of the successful save. The spell makes no mention of requiring the character to be capable of anything or expending movement.

Quote:
The spell does explicitly deny any save whatsoever in the context of being pushed into the pit. So the argument that "you always get a save, no matter what" is already moot since the spell's specific rules explicitly say no save is possible under those conditions

Yeah, but those conditions aren't the same as the one being talked about in the OP. Not getting a save if something completely different happens is completely irrelevant.

In fact, that's an argument against your position. Because if it explicitly mentions that you get no save in that situation, it follows that if there was another specific situation where you're denied your saving throw it'd also bring that up.

It doesn't though, so it's pretty reasonable to assume that if a spell only says you're denied your save if X happens you're probably not denied your save if Y happens.


Saving Throw: When a creature is the subject of a dangerous spell or effect, it often receives a saving throw to mitigate the damage or result. Saving throws are passive, meaning that a character does not need to take an action to make a saving throw—they are made automatically. There are three types of saving throws: Fortitude (used to resist poisons, diseases, and other bodily ailments), Reflex (used to avoid effects that target an entire area, such as fireball), and Will (used to resist mental attacks and spells).

Saving throws are not an action and are automatic. Fireball doesn't force you to move out of the area of effect when you make a save, even if you were paralyzed you could reflex save for half damage on a fireball.

Same as create pit, except create pit says if you make your throw you <fluff explanation> in the nearest space. I liked the refluff of riding the energy. Either way, you get the save (with an effective dex of 0) and if you make it, you don't fall in. Simple as that.


bbangerter wrote:
Just because a mechanical pit trap is not magical does not mean there cannot be magic in play effecting a characters saving throw to avoid falling in.

If you had someone standing on the area of a pit trap that hadn't been triggered yet, and was then paralyzed. Their teammate then triggered the pit trap, the paralyzed character would get a reflex save (with an effective dex of 0) to avoid the trap. If successful, they don't fall in.


Cuup wrote:
The fact is, a level 1 Commoner with no gear who hasn't used his allotted 1 attack of opportunity makes his Reflex save vs. a trample effect. No magic or other mechanics are involved. It's a matter of the commoner physically leaping out of the way. To imply the mechanic of the saving throw would function differently if the commoner had magical gear or a Clerical connection with a deity is to imply that saving throws litterally have different mechanics on a case-by-case basis, which is simply false.

My point is, you can't say that because some reflex saves could be done with no magic involved, does not mean all reflex saves have to be able to be made with no magic involved. But they can all still work off the core game mechanic of 'make a saving throw'. How the GM describes what happens to make that save successful (or not) it just that. Its fluff. It doesn't require a different mechanic.

A GM might describe it as a sudden gust of wind shoving that commoner to the side. While another might describe it as the commoner leaps to the side. A third might describe it as steps to the side (no leap involved). A 4th that a divine force pushed him to the side. The description is independent of the mechanics of how it works.

This likewise works for the pit. A non-paralyzed character may be described as jumping to a nearby space as the pit begins opening. A paralyzed character might have his foot snagged on a ridge in the ground that drags him to the safer location as the pit mouth widens. Or that miraculous gust of wind pushes him to the side. The mechanics of the game only care about: Did the die roll + modifiers beat the DC? Only the non-mechanical story cares about how that happened - whether by magical or mundane means.

Sovereign Court

Tarantula wrote:
Saving Throw: When a creature is the subject of a dangerous spell or effect, it often receives a saving throw to mitigate the damage or result. Saving throws are passive, meaning that a character does not need to take an action to make a saving throw—they are made automatically. There are three types of saving throws: Fortitude (used to resist poisons, diseases, and other bodily ailments), Reflex (used to avoid effects that target an entire area, such as fireball), and Will (used to resist mental attacks and spells).

Saving throws are not an action and are automatic. Fireball doesn't force you to move out of the area of effect when you make a save, even if you were paralyzed you could reflex save for half damage on a fireball.

Same as create pit, except create pit says if you make your throw you <fluff explanation> in the nearest space. I liked the refluff of riding the energy. Either way, you get the save (with an effective dex of 0) and if you make it, you don't fall in. Simple as that.

It's actually not comparable to Fireball. You can stand inside the aoe of most spells (like Fireball) and still make the save. Create Pit is different in that (both implicitly AND by inference) if you're in the AoE, you automatically suffer the effects of failing. Explicitly, one must make it outside the AoE to make a successful reflex savw.


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Oh. My. God. Everyone! We did it! At long last, we did it!

*Duck falls from the ceiling*

We outdid the five-foot jumping thread in stupid! WOOOOOO!

*Blows on noisemaker*


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Oh. My. God. Everyone! We did it! At long last, we did it!

*Duck falls from the ceiling*

We outdid the five-foot jumping thread in stupid! WOOOOOO!

*Blows on noisemaker*

Oh, I am in no way done! I didn't even get the chance to deploy my "quantum level vibrations" argument for why objects get a Reflex save despite being apparently immobile...


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It's official. quibblemuch has become...quibbletoomuch.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
It's official. quibblemuch has become...quibbletoomuch.

Never!

*is dragged off for quibblevention*


deusvult wrote:
It's actually not comparable to Fireball. You can stand inside the aoe of most spells (like Fireball) and still make the save. Create Pit is different in that (both implicitly AND by inference) if you're in the AoE, you automatically suffer the effects of failing. Explicitly, one must make it outside the AoE to make a successful reflex savw.

No, you don't. You get a reflex save. If after the spell is in effect, you are pushed into the pit, you don't get an additional save, you already failed against whatever effect pushed you. Similar to if I bull rush you off the side of a cliff, you don't get to make an additional save to grab onto the cliff.

Explicitly, one gets a save, and if one makes it, they are in the nearest open space. Descriptively, this is described as jumping, but nothing in the spell nor paralysis removes your ability to save, and if you succeed, you get the effects of a successful save (nearest open space).

Sovereign Court

Yeah, you technically may roll the reflex save. But if you're still in the pit, you fall regadless of that result as the save does not allow you to defy gravity.

You also can't argue that the edge of the pit might protrude out ledge into your square suitable for precariously balancing upon because that is directly contradicting the spell description about the edge around the pit.

Ergo, if you don't make it to a safe square, you fall just as automatically as if you had been pushed into the aoe.


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The magic creating the extradimensional space could have the possibility of creating a quantum tunneling effect on objects within it's aoe at the time of it's manifestation that only take place if the character is able to make a successful reflex save, thus allowing "movement" (quantum tunneling) while at the same time being paralyzed.

They would look like they "jumped" to outside observers due to the quantum tunneling effect being faster than the speed of causality between the individual making the reflex save and the observer.

This would also explain how magical items are able to avoid the area of effect, but inanimate objects cannot.

/thread


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Nah, see, the spell launches your immobilized body if you make your Reflex save. That's why we call it Create Pit Filled With Buoyant Gases.


So then does a creature with a fly speed that happens to be on the ground when the pit opens in the 10x10 room still fall into the pit?

Sovereign Court

Talonhawke wrote:
So then does a creature with a fly speed that happens to be on the ground when the pit opens in the 10x10 room still fall into the pit?

Depends on whether the creature is paralyzed or otherwise immobile, of course.

If the fly speed creature is not paralyzed/immobile and it makes its reflex save, a "clear" aplication of Rule Zero is that the current square just became safe. If the save was failed, or the creature is unable to move, then just as obviously Not So Much.

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