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^Also, most (all?) of the Planetouched, plus Dhampirs and Changelings, are explicitly described as being of partly or mostly Human origin, so they should be easier for a player to meet the roleplaying qualifications for than Elves.
Depending on the person it may or may not be easier to run. Too many would probably run a Dhampir as a vampire from Twilight imo. Even then what is the standard to be measured. That's the issue their no really measurable standard beyond the DM. Which if he/she is already against allowing non-core. Chances are good one is not playing that Dhampir. Tell me upfront yes or no to a non-core race at the start. I go to a session to play D&D. Not So you think you can roleplay a non-core race.
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Depending on the person it may or may not be easier to run. Too many would probably run a Dhampir as a vampire from Twilight imo. Even then what is the standard to be measured. That's the issue their no really measurable standard beyond the DM. Which if he/she is already against allowing non-core. Chances are good one is not playing that Dhampir. Tell me upfront yes or no to a non-core race at the start. I go to a session to play D&D. Not So you think you can roleplay a non-core race.^Also, most (all?) of the Planetouched, plus Dhampirs and Changelings, are explicitly described as being of partly or mostly Human origin, so they should be easier for a player to meet the roleplaying qualifications for than Elves.
The ven diagram of Twilight fans and Pathfinder RPG fans probably has very very little overlap. The go to example of dhampirs for most Pathfinder folks is probably Blade or Vampire Hunter D.
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The ven diagram of Twilight fans and Pathfinder RPG fans probably has very very little overlap. The go to example of dhampirs for most Pathfinder folks is probably Blade or Vampire Hunter D.Depending on the person it may or may not be easier to run. Too many would probably run a Dhampir as a vampire from Twilight imo. Even then what is the standard to be measured. That's the issue their no really measurable standard beyond the DM. Which if he/she is already against allowing non-core. Chances are good one is not playing that Dhampir. Tell me upfront yes or no to a non-core race at the start. I go to a session to play D&D. Not So you think you can roleplay a non-core race.^Also, most (all?) of the Planetouched, plus Dhampirs and Changelings, are explicitly described as being of partly or mostly Human origin, so they should be easier for a player to meet the roleplaying qualifications for than Elves.
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Because I insist you play the character written on your sheet. So don't write what you can't play.
Time to rewrite the ability scores
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Depending on the person it may or may not be easier to run. Too many would probably run a Dhampir as a vampire from Twilight imo. Even then what is the standard to be measured. That's the issue their no really measurable standard beyond the DM. Which if he/she is already against allowing non-core. Chances are good one is not playing that Dhampir. Tell me upfront yes or no to a non-core race at the start. I go to a session to play D&D. Not So you think you can roleplay a non-core race.^Also, most (all?) of the Planetouched, plus Dhampirs and Changelings, are explicitly described as being of partly or mostly Human origin, so they should be easier for a player to meet the roleplaying qualifications for than Elves.
I think nerds habit of blaming twilight for poorly played vampires is really dumb and immature. Yeah it's a part of the icky tumblr girl type of nerd, but that doesn't mean it's infecting our hobby in any meaningful way. The sexy but dangerous, overly angsty vampire cliche has been around since the early 90s and its points of intersection with the Pathfinder fanbase are mostly from Buffy and Vampire the Masquerade. Which have done way way more in turning tabletop vampires into pretty goth kids with "witty" manners of speaking than Twilight could ever hope to.
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Oddly, I might actually be able to qualify for playing a Drizz't Do'Urden clone. After all, I was raised in the South (Georgia(*)), but was always an outsider there, and quickly re-homed after arrival in New England . . . .
(*)If you've read extensively about American History, you'll understand why this is relevant. Alternatively, if you've read about the state of education in various US states, you'll understand why this is relevant. Alternatively, if you've experienced the Anti-D&D Scare of the 1980s even peripherally, you'll understand why this is relevant.
My current party consists of an orc brawler, android witch, lizardfolk ranger, and a fourth spot that they keep filled with a variety of temporary NPC allies. They've included a tiefling slayer, kasatha gunslinger, ratfolk rogue, and xill sorcerer in that ally slot, among less weird core allies.
They used to have a tengu samurai as a PC as well, but he retired after having to spend a night dead before getting raised.
Lots of weirdos. The players are generally handling them fairly well, including both playing odd races with attention paid to how it'd work, and acknowledging race differences among NPCs.
Haven't seen a dhampir yet, but I am considering Carrion Crown for the next game I run. I'm interested in seeing where my players would go with that.
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Our homebrew games tend to be very case-by-case. I remember a "dwarf only" party and other highly core games,while in other cases tieflings, aasimars and goblins join a racially nonspecific game. Right now one of us is GMing a campaign for raptorans (race inherited from 3,5 edition). A while before he was doing a campaign for a group of very young dragons.
The most oddball stuff I think was a short adventure for a team of a unicorn oracle, atomie rogue, werewolf ranger and faerie draogn sorcerer. But that should count as monstrous characters, nor just exotic "races".
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Exactly. People play the game to be something they aren't. That is the whole art of roleplaying. The weak or nonathletic kid who plays the powerhouse. The wallflower or socially inept person who plays the charisma monster. Limiting people because they have a hard time being that thing seems pretty elitist to me. My whole purpose of gaming is to let my players have a good time, not force them to basically play themselves in every character they make.Because I insist you play the character written on your sheet. So don't write what you can't play.Time to rewrite the ability scores
Just as long as Orfamay Quest holds himself to the same standard! No NPC shall be allowed to do anything that Orfamay is not personally capable of doing. See how much more believable the world is that way?
I think nerds habit of blaming twilight for poorly played vampires is really dumb and immature. Yeah it's a part of the icky tumblr girl type of nerd, but that doesn't mean it's infecting our hobby in any meaningful way. The sexy but dangerous, overly angsty vampire cliche has been around since the early 90s and its points of intersection with the Pathfinder fanbase are mostly from Buffy and Vampire the Masquerade. Which have done way way more in turning tabletop vampires into pretty goth kids with "witty" manners of speaking than Twilight could ever hope to.Depending on the person it may or may not be easier to run. Too many would probably run a Dhampir as a vampire from Twilight imo. Even then what is the standard to be measured. That's the issue their no really measurable standard beyond the DM. Which if he/she is already against allowing non-core. Chances are good one is not playing that Dhampir. Tell me upfront yes or no to a non-core race at the start. I go to a session to play D&D. Not So you think you can roleplay a non-core race.^Also, most (all?) of the Planetouched, plus Dhampirs and Changelings, are explicitly described as being of partly or mostly Human origin, so they should be easier for a player to meet the roleplaying qualifications for than Elves.
mean while i'm just queen of the damned, deftones, woo.
though, I just don't really like dhampir, much rather play an actual vampire as a NPC.
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I think that this is a silly thing to argue over. People have spent 3 pages basically talking past each other in circles. You either think that anthropomorphics and so on are cool or you think they're lame. It's based on personal taste and there's no real substantive argument that either side can put forth to convince the other.
So live and let live. The GM is the final arbiter. GMs should be upfront about their preferences and as the ones doing the majority of the heavy lifting for any game, their preferences should be respected. If the GM doesn't want to run a game for anthropomorphics, save your concept for another game. You'll have other chances to play.
Personally, I like core races only when I make PCs and I also prefer to run games for the cores. That aside, I have run games with ratfolk, catfolk and tengu PCs and it's fine. The world won't end. As long as the race isn't more powerful than the cores, I let it ride and it's always been fine.
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That said, the Kasatha actually are one of the few races I'd really like to try, mostly because of their complete alienness. I'd like to play a character that emphasizes that... but that's a very tricky, fine line to walk.Cherryh's Foreigner novels are really good for this.The problem with "complete alienness" is that few players (and fewer groups) are actually capable of that or prepared for it. I assume you're familiar with the Rubber Forehead Alien trope? The setting is set up under the assumptions that human players will be playing characters who react largely as humans do to human-like concerns, which is one reason that elves end up as Humans With Pointy Ears and dwarves end up as Short Grumpy Humans.
I don't think I've ever seen someone convincingly play an elf as an elf (think how different your life would be if you were 100 years old and looking forward to another five hundred years of active living? Why would you do anything as astonishingly dangerous as adventure?) . So theres's no need to play a kasatha when people can't actually play something as alien as an elf.
Yeah, Cherryh is basically the reason I'm interested in the Kasatha. Her books aren't perfect, but as a general rule, they are among the best explorations of alien cultures around.
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Can we stop knocking the way that Orfamay runs his own games?
If it works for OQ and his group, how does that negatively impact anyone?
I don't personally agree, but can we maybe show a little mutual respect rather than jumping straight to accusing each other of having BadWrongFun?
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Pathfinder simply has far too many races to fit believably on a single world.
When two intelligent races compete one is going to go the way of the neanderthals. They can only coexist if the stronger is already very cosmopolitan (which requires they already be civilized which they won't be since the genocides or where fantasy b+$@!@&* genetics apply absorption would happen in the neolithic or earlier when contact occurs) or if they do not occupy competing ecological niches.
A reasonable setting would have one surface race (which pretty much needs to be humans due to metagame concerns with class balance and in any case must not have darkvision), one underdark race (which must have light blindness or it would compete too much with the surface race), and one aquatic race. Maybe split aquatic sophonts into deep and shallow, though deep ocean dwellers could certainly not adventure with surface or underdark races. The more you pile onto that the more implausible the setting becomes. Every additional race requires a contrived excuse. Paizo for the most part hasn't even bothered to provide that.
in a world that has moved past the stone age, it's actual reasonable to befriend neighboring intelligent creatures and uplift them.
especially if they have different preferences in land. imagine if dolphins were intelligent enough to reasonably communicate. They'd get the oceans and we'd get the land, and our wars would have to do with how each of us try to dispose of waste.
huamsn like wide open plains, elves like forests, dwarves like to live in mountains... so little overlap.
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There's also the fact that you've got reasonably common magic that can allow you to
- Understand other groups of people
- Create resources that are scarce in the real world.
There's also an overabundance of *actual* enemies to unite against, far nastier than the animals prehistoric people had to deal with. Orcs, Liches, Demons, that sort of thing.
There's very little reason for races to fight amongst themselves even in a prehistoric stage, unless you have a rather negative view of people in general.
Pathfinder simply has far too many races to fit believably on a single world.
When two intelligent races compete one is going to go the way of the neanderthals. They can only coexist if the stronger is already very cosmopolitan (which requires they already be civilized which they won't be since the genocides or where fantasy b&$!#*$& genetics apply absorption would happen in the neolithic or earlier when contact occurs) or if they do not occupy competing ecological niches.
A reasonable setting would have one surface race (which pretty much needs to be humans due to metagame concerns with class balance and in any case must not have darkvision), one underdark race (which must have light blindness or it would compete too much with the surface race), and one aquatic race. Maybe split aquatic sophonts into deep and shallow, though deep ocean dwellers could certainly not adventure with surface or underdark races. The more you pile onto that the more implausible the setting becomes. Every additional race requires a contrived excuse. Paizo for the most part hasn't even bothered to provide that.
Invalid argument, since "believability" has sweet f@#k all to do with Pathfinder.
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Pathfinder simply has far too many races to fit believably on a single world.
When two intelligent races compete one is going to go the way of the neanderthals. They can only coexist if the stronger is already very cosmopolitan (which requires they already be civilized which they won't be since the genocides or where fantasy b*!@%%&$ genetics apply absorption would happen in the neolithic or earlier when contact occurs) or if they do not occupy competing ecological niches.
{. . .}
I see a possible way out of this -- if you have MORE THAN TWO intelligent races competing with each other with each knowing of the others(*), you might get a Nineteen Eighty-Four style solution where if one gets too strong, the others gang up on it.
(*)If all of those on the losing end relative to the dominant one don't know of each other and thus can't cooperate, this doesn't work.
huamsn like wide open plains, elves like forests, dwarves like to live in mountains... so little overlap.
Humans like to turn all other terrain into wide open plains . . . .
{. . .}
There's very little reason for races to fight amongst themselves even in a prehistoric stage, unless you have a rather negative view of people in general.
Well now that you mention it . . . everything from long past history to the present DOES lead me to have a negative view of people in general. Look what happened to the people who used to live in the area now occupied by the US and Canada.
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it's 2016, do people really still think misanthropy is cool?
I know, right? You humans are always like this.
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it's 2016, do people really still think misanthropy is cool?
It's not cool, it's fun!
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{. . .}
There's very little reason for races to fight amongst themselves even in a prehistoric stage, unless you have a rather negative view of people in general.Well now that you mention it . . . everything from long past history to the present DOES lead me to have a negative view of people in general. Look what happened to the people who used to live in the area now occupied by the US and Canada.
look at the people who used to live in russia, the UK, Spain, France, oh wait we can pretty much count the entire world under the flag of land that was resettled by someone else.
even with all that I don't particularly think in a world with magic and multiple races and what not, that 1 race would necessarily become completely dominant destroying all others.
For instances in all these cases people were working the land before the conflict erupted. The new Settlers went there, didn't see the natives using the land and started using it. Back then the concept of land ownership in the west was largely based on working the land, and so since they didn't see farms etc, they believed the natives didn't hold any right to the land.
This holds true for most of these kinds of events through history. so if people were working the land, settlement in this way would be unlikely or impossible.
Can we stop knocking the way that Orfamay runs his own games?
If it works for OQ and his group, how does that negatively impact anyone?
I don't personally agree, but can we maybe show a little mutual respect rather than jumping straight to accusing each other of having BadWrongFun?
Mostly because (I think), though he was talking about it in the context of his own group, in the text-filled-void in which we all post, for a large number of readers/posters, it probably came off as condescending toward anyone who didn't play the way he did. In other words, in that old grade-school non-defense, "He started it."
For the record, I'm also not convinced that OQ was explicitly trying to say, "Your games are bad, and you should feel bad." - however in getting across his point that, in his opinion, most performances of elves did not feel suitably "alien elf" enough to warrant the right to play non-elves at his table, it can come off as exactly that thing; especially in a text-based communication, like forums are.
But I generally agree with your broader point: mutual respect is important, not accusing others of BWF is important, and really the point has been thoroughly made.
That said, the Kasatha actually are one of the few races I'd really like to try, mostly because of their complete alienness. I'd like to play a character that emphasizes that... but that's a very tricky, fine line to walk.Cherryh's Foreigner novels are really good for this.The problem with "complete alienness" is that few players (and fewer groups) are actually capable of that or prepared for it. I assume you're familiar with the Rubber Forehead Alien trope? The setting is set up under the assumptions that human players will be playing characters who react largely as humans do to human-like concerns, which is one reason that elves end up as Humans With Pointy Ears and dwarves end up as Short Grumpy Humans.
I don't think I've ever seen someone convincingly play an elf as an elf (think how different your life would be if you were 100 years old and looking forward to another five hundred years of active living? Why would you do anything as astonishingly dangerous as adventure?) . So theres's no need to play a kasatha when people can't actually play something as alien as an elf.
Yeah, Cherryh is basically the reason I'm interested in the Kasatha. Her books aren't perfect, but as a general rule, they are among the best explorations of alien cultures around.
True. I find that, in a general sort of way, she gets better as she goes a long, with a few (minor) missteps. Oddly, most of the missteps later on seem to be with the human characters.
Her earliest works (very sensibly, really) kind of feel like she just took human cultures, mashed some elements of them together, blended, and went, "Look! Alien!" - which makes a loooot of sense, really. Then, as she went on, she started diving into ever-more divergent (but mostly comprehensible ;D) psychology, until she finally arrived at the Foreigner series at which point you've just got straight up alien stuff.
... and then she gives you the alien-thinking humans...
(I'll stop before I nerd out...)
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Personally I cannot really accept that there is a right or wrong way to play anything. Sure, there is a given culture of a race, but for some races, an adventurer is already a bit of an oddity (wayangs, hobgoblins, and duergar on the surface for example). It's all okay that a given player wants to incorporate some of that races culture into their character and really roleplay that out, but a given character can also be radically different from the norm, which probably lead to then leaving.
More to the point, what is the right or wrong way to play anything? All elves must be whimsical and chaotic, or smug a!@&*#*!s that are super xenophobic and distant. All dwarves must be stoic and hardworking. All gnomes must be...gnome...like...
And deviance from that formula is only in superficial ways.
And why exactly are people so forceful to push these ideas of how to do things the right way onto their players? If a DM told me I wasn't playing my character properly because they were a given race, or told me that if I wanted to play something exotic I had to be a certain type of character, I'd probably not want to play? Adventurers are weirdos and the exception to the norm. Oddball races are frankly to be expected, and even if a player doesn't play a character aligned with a given races cultural attitudes (which I personally dislike as an argument anyway), that doesn't mean the character has nothing to give as a character.
I also really detest DM's that enforce racial prejudice in games as 100% hostility and open violence. I don't think there is any place for it and the stories that surround it are usually kinda gross and don't really contribute meaningfully to a story, or properly represent the realities of those situations. They are anti-fun and somewhat anti-immersive.
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Funny... some GMs here are saying that they require players to prove that they can play an elf or some other core non-human before playing an exotic race. What if I can roleplay an exotic race far better than an elf? Then I just won't ever be allowed to play the race that I'm good at?
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^Yeah, for that matter, what if I'm better at playing an exotic race than at playing a Human?
To get back to the original question - I once played an elven archer ranger. That was my first character, and my last core book race character.
Though the "Creepy Doll" alternate race feature from Horror Adventures makes me want to play a Creepy Doll, Childlike, Pass For Human Dirge Bard Halfling...
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Why do so many people deny players the right to play exotic races? It's racism, plain and simple. Anything too far different from the self is rejected out of hand, with no consideration for the quality of the character or player. That, or species'ism. ;)
The best reason of all should be... It does not fit within my setting. If the campaign setting is predicated that the characters be Humans of Sandpoint, then Human becomes the only allowed race.
If it mandates that the characters all know and trust each other, you can't play a race that's Kill On Sight.
And if the only reason you want to play an extreme exotic race is mechanical advantage, that becomes a NO right on the spot.
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^Yeah, for that matter, what if I'm better at playing an exotic race than at playing a Human?
This reminds me, one of my players when I ran Iron Gods has Aspergers and I've never seen her happier or more able to connect with her character than when I introduced her to the android race. She even had the same haircut as Meyanda.
This is why I have a problem with limiting people based on how well they roleplay, not every one is capable of getting inside the head of another race.
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beep boop
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All elves must be whimsical and chaotic, or smug a%%~$+%+s that are super xenophobic and distant.
no, they need to go to war with you because you cut down trees and offer their merchants wooden trinkets.
I swear dwarf fortress has set me up to play the worst elf imaginable.
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All elves must be whimsical and chaotic, or smug a%%~$+%+s that are super xenophobic and distant.no, they need to go to war with you because you cut down trees and offer their merchants wooden trinkets.
I swear dwarf fortress has set me up to play the worst elf imaginable.
How could I have been so neglectful? I do apologize. Yes this is the true elven playstyle.
A corpse left unattended is a meal left uneaten, as they say.
Or am I getting them mixed up with Elder Scrolls wood elves?
(The Elder Scrolls has actually got some cool elves. The dark elves are brilliantly unique to most depictions of elves in fantasy and the wood elves are great take on the nature loving elves. Really fun ideas. Also, the dwemer are cool too.)
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To get back to the original question - I once played an elven archer ranger. That was my first character, and my last core book race character.
Though the "Creepy Doll" alternate race feature from Horror Adventures makes me want to play a Creepy Doll, Childlike, Pass For Human Dirge Bard Halfling...
Similar thought here: Use Creepy Doll (and maybe the 2 feats) to make a Halfling Debuffing Witch for Giantslayer. Or a Gravewalker Witch NPC villain . . . .
I'm pretty sure "dwemer" are the most iconic example of someone appropriating dwarven culture since humans stole jorts from them.
I'm pretty sure "dwemer" are the most iconic example of someone appropriating dwarven culture since humans stole jorts from them.
So does that mean that the orcs of Tamrial are actually elves appropriating orc culture?
OH
ARGONIANS ARE TREES.
THAT IS SO CRAZY I LOVE ELDER SCROLLS IT IS SO WEIRD!!!
I'm pretty sure "dwemer" are the most iconic example of someone appropriating dwarven culture since humans stole jorts from them.So does that mean that the orcs of Tamrial are actually elves appropriating orc culture?
OH
ARGONIANS ARE TREES.
THAT IS SO CRAZY I LOVE ELDER SCROLLS IT IS SO WEIRD!!!
Don't forget the Khajiit that end up like Battle-Cat, but still able to talk. Elder Scrolls did a great job giving a good spin on most of their races. Most of them.
My favorite character was a tieling before the letter (Ad&D; human with fiendish ancestry... converted in later editions he'd be a tiefling) I also have a thing for drow, also since AD&D and long before the clown drizzt ever was conceived. I'd like to try a draconic Kobold one of these days.