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AestheticDialectic wrote:
Yeah, idk, non-divine champion just reads like an oxymoron to me. Inherently contradictory. To be a warrior for the divine is what a champion is, remove that and you have fighter, basically

I'm confused as to what is contradictory about a non-divine champion. What is your interpretation of the word champion?

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I'm just surprised nobody has mad a joke about enforcing age penalties on this thread.

We've only used aging penalties once in my group, in a campaign where there were a couple time skips (actually killed one of the players, I want to say he was a goblin? It was a really short life span compared to the rest of the party).

No, but its just a specific kind of composite longbow, and Elven Weapon Familiarity gives them proficiency in composite longbows.

So you don't treat it as a martial weapon because it is made by elves, but it is a martial weapon as is, and you happen to be proficient with it.

Lemartes wrote:
I think there is a rule saying that lame oracles can't take dance of blades.

Did they finally get around to that one? Because I recall for a long time the flame version (Cinder dance, I think) was not available, but the metal version was fine.

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edduardco wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't know how you can reward single classing (which one should do) without also being perceived as "punishing multi-classing". One should get some sort of benefit from sticking with a single class beyond "access to higher levels of class features."
That is right, I don't understand how some people manage to translate rewarding commitment as punishing other choices. Single class characters should be rewarded.

I've experienced this sort of thing before, and its a matter of when it affects you. The one I am thinking about was in League of Legends, they made a mechanic for a long range caster that made him do more damage the farther he was, cementing his artillery like abilities. In playtesting though (IIRC it never made it to the live game), it didn't feel like a buff for staying away, but a debuff for getting close.

So I expect that the feeling of punishment is that if you multiclass or prestige you you are losing out because it was previously one bonus, and now you are losing that. Now why wouldn't this be enough of a deterrent to stop someone from multiclassing? Because you get different class features for doing so, but flatout lose (barring half elves) this one ability even though the new class has the same mechanic.

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Thank you Steve for bringing such great examples to the table. The problem that the OP brought up is a fairly common thing in art, but it usually has this same problem that people don't understand what the complaint is. Its okay for women to be sexy, to wear revealing clothing, etc. That isn't the problem. The problem is when you cross the line between sexy and sexualized.

Paizo has been pretty good about this, to the best of my knowledge. Most of the artwork that comes to my mind when I think of the characters isn't problematic. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and Steve posted a very good example. The OP is not asking for every female character to be covered from head to toe, but the request of avoiding objectifying imagery in the game is hardly outlandish.

I'm with you on Refluffing spells, I usually do it for all my characters. Like my Imperious Bloodline Sorcerer's Mage Armor (such an easy example to use) appeared as golden armor with a crown hovering above his head. My Scarab themed Beastmorph Alchemist would use Shield and it would give his skin a Chitinous look, or if in his Mutagen form, made the Chitin iridescent.

VoodistMonk wrote:

And people that say Ironman/Tony Stark somehow qualifies for this topic... No. Tony Stark originally was in a wheelchair, and the rest of the Avengers called him Jughead. Even in the new stuff, he is just a rich alcoholic with a suit. You can't even compare him to the other rich alcoholic with a suit, because Bruce Wayne is a trained and skilled martial artist even without his suit.

Bit of a tangent here, but, hey.

This is one of the problems with such characters, be they ancient myths or modern comics. There are so many variations that can make statements like this either spot on or absolutely wrong. In this case, if we're talking MCU Tony, yeah, without his gear or time to make something to help him, he really is just a guy. But off hand I can think of an instance of comic book Tony fighting off 5 skrulls in a Skrull prison while naked. His combat prowess in that case is attributed to his training with Cap.

To be clear, I'm not expecting everyone to know all these different variations, nor to feel the need to clarify which one they are referring to every time, it just makes these characters hard to pin down as examples for such discussions.

We've played that you can specify how your spells look, and customize them to some degree (mechanically it does nothing, like if you cast magic missile and yours look skulls, and his look like bees, its the same dc to recognize the spell and stuff like that) so when we had this same thing come up, one thing was how impressive you could make a spell. Much more focus on aesthetics than mechanical skill, though on the fly creations would need a roll to determine if you could get it to work the first time. Something like 1d20 plus your casting stat vs a DC set by the GM based on how intricate the idea was.

For example, one contestant was a druid with a wolf from the north, so he used the Ice Armor spell to create armor with a stylized wolf motif.

In response, my character (A crossblooded Fire/earth Sorcerer, no I didn't pick it, probably isn't even an option) used Mount to create a a horse that rose from the ground made of Volcanic stone. I won that round.

I'll be honest, I thought that this was going to be about making a character who summoned muppets for musical numbers.

Also the vestigial arm doesn't work that way. They are very explicit about the fact that the arm cannot be used to make additional attacks, so even with one, you would still need to give up one of your natural attacks to use a weapon with it.

I love this Archetype from a thematic perspective, because I love horror films, and it makes such a great Jason Voorhees.

Interesting, I may have to take another look at Rage prophet, though I may have to talk the Dm into letting me skip the moment of clarity requirement.

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I just remembered another one that I came up with when a player was searching a mural way too hard to find something when nothing was there.

I told him that on part of it he detected magic, strong magic, from a magical weapon of some kind. He narrowed his search and found that the sword one of the characters in the mural was wielding, was actually the blade itself embedded into the wall.

Unfortunately for him, the character in question was in the background.

And thus the +5 Plaque bane toothpick was born.

Blackwaltzomega wrote:
I see the "arguable familiar" thing for Fi and Ezlo, but Midna is definitely a wizard/sorcerer cohort, not an animal companion or familiar.

Yeah, I really felt like Midna doesn't come across as a familiar, but I see how someone might try to emulate her using some form of Improved Familiar. Thats the only reason I left her on Arguable.

ViConstantine wrote:

I get where you guys are coming from with the animal companion, however, epona is only in 6 legend of zelda games, epona isnt even a main part of most of these games. thats even counting single cutscenes you see the horse in. Link is FAR from being known to have an animal companion. It is much much more common for him to have some sort of fey guide. Navi, midna, the minish cap, the shika slate (im counting this because it may as well be alive), fi,

You have a point with Midna, and Navi but Fi is more like the personality of an intelligent item made manifest than a familiar, I would probably use something like the Black Blade to represent Fi. The Minish Cap is really a person, so I would be hesitant to call it a familiar, and definitely lean towards intelligent item.

I Can't comment on the Sheika Slate, because I haven't played BotW yet, but then I got to this part

ViConstantine wrote:

the king of red lions, etc. There are tons of different little guides/beings who guide link through his adventures. Thats why I chose eldritch guardian in the first place.

Are you kidding me? Who in their right mind would use a familiar to represent The King of Red Lions? And once again we have a character who is really a person, but magically changed into an item.

Also, after going through more of it, I don't think I would call Midna a familiar either. The relationship between a Master and a Familiar is very different than Midna and Link's.

Edit: I wanted to see how many familiar like characters Link has had compared to animal companions, and came up with the following list.

Animal Companions
Epona is in 7 games, but only rideable in 4. (OoT, MM, FS, and TP)
Ricky (Oracles)
Dimitri (Oracles)
Crimson Loftwing

Not counting the Oracle games as separate appearances or Eponas non rideable appearances: 8

Navi (OoT)
Tatl (MM)
Ciela (PH)

Arguable Familiars:
Midna (TP)
Fi (SS)
Ezlo (MC)

Counting the arguable ones, its 6, so Link appears to be more likely to have an Animal Companion than a familiar.

Edit 2: Someone just informed me that it is possible to get Wolf Link in Breath of the Wild, but didn't have details, so I'll hold off on adding it to the list.

I've only seen one player use it, and he is a savant. He didn't abuse it, and mostly used it for buffing the party and because he likes doing math.

Some people at the table thought he was just making it up because nobody ever checked his math, until one day he failed, and it looked like it physically pained him.

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Shamelessly stolen from the web comic Goblins, the anymug. It can produce any non magical liquid with just a thought. In the comic it is used to make ogre pee and a super alcoholic dwarf drink (which is used to set something on fire).

In our campaigns it is a holy artifact of Cayden Cailean.

I'm definitely interested in this.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
The Verdant Bloodline in APG is for Sorcerers. The one in Ultimate Wilderness is for Bloodragers. They don't/can't use the exact same bloodlines.

Yes, I know that they can't use the same bloodlines, but I skimmed and missed it was a Bloodrager.

The part I bolded caught my eye because one of my characters for Kingmaker was a Verdant Bloodline Sorcerer, thanks for pointing out the BR part though.

Cuup wrote:
I played a Bloodrager/Paladin in Kingmaker that went on to be a swell ruler. He had the Destined Bloodline, though the Verdant Bloodline introduced in Ultimate Wilderness looks really good/flavorful, especially for a Kingmaker game, to the point that I probably would have taken it over Destined. The Holy Guide Paladin Archetype from the Advanced Class Guide also looks like a really cool fit for Kingmaker.

Wasn't the Verdant Bloodline in the Advanced Players Guide? Or is there a different new one?

I am confused then, because many of the suggested options allow you to do exactly what you are looking for.

For instance if you have long arm, you threaten at 5 and 10 feet. When they try to get close to you they move out of a threatened square, and you can make an attack, exactly the same as you could with a reach weapon.

Am I missing something here?

Sissyl wrote:
Tower shields are ridiculous items that mostly work well for Stalwart Defenders, as noted above. It's a way to add some levity. We had a character stomping around with a tower shield. It WAS an actual door strapped to her arm. With door handle.

I can't find it right now, but I recall artwork of an adventuring party where the Half orc is wielding a Sarcophagus lid as a tower shield (or maybe a heavy shield). Anybody know what I am talking about?

There is another class that I recently found out has Tower Shield proficiency naturally. I found it when I was making a fake character sheet to hide the fact that my character was a Vigilante.

The Aristocrat is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor and shields.

Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.

From the blog post found Here

Seems obvious to me that this has been true for a while.

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thelemonache wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Instead of a wait and complain cycle, I was thinking of a wait and filk cycle. You know, keep the dream alive with the power of music. Because we're bards!

♫ There was a time when rules were kind
Masterpieces soared aloft
Their magic inviting
There was a time when songs combined
Our world was drenched in song
And the song was exciting
There was a time

Then it all went wrong

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high
Masterpieces worth having
I dreamed that bardic rounds would fly by
I dreamed the PDT would be forgiving
Then I was young and a bit naiive
Our choral works were made unchastened
Our lutes and voices played
No song unsung
No wine untasted

Then the changes came one night
To steal the bardic thunder
They questioned masterpiece's part
"Are all performances the same?"
Now we check the flowing tide
Which way will it go, I wonder?
Will the songs go side by side?
Or will they part from once they came?
And I still dream they'll come to me
Our songs will live the years together
But this thread has no end I see
Oh well... We'll wait it out together ♫

Source: Les Miserables - I Dreamed A Dream Lyrics

I officially vote that they write a masterpiece in your honor :)

The Hymn of Hmm. For the cost of 20 rounds of bardic performance you can use Bardic masterpieces and Bardic Performance at the same time.

I don't see what is unclear. You need 7 levels in Beast Rider.

"In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear)."

Even if it didn't call out beast rider, the standing rule is that any class ability that talks about level means levels in that class unless it specifies character level.

Wait I'm confused, admittedly I didn't read everything, but are people claiming you get no extra attacks if you flurry with a two handed weapon?

If that was the case, why would you ever flurry wth a two handed weapon? I'm honestly curious. What would be the benefit? Why would you explicitly be allowed to?

Never noticed this feat before, but now I want it on an alchemist with parasitic twin. Make it that much harder to get struck by these spells.

Throw in a possessed hand and Medium dip to fit as many people as possible into one body.

I've done a similar thing with a dwarf fighter. Dwarven Dorn Dergar and a boulder helmet.

I'm playing an Ilsurian Archer in a campaign, and though I haven't gotten there yet, I'm looking at a potential problem with Vicious aim.

Vicious Aim (Ex): At 4th level, an Ilsurian archer adds half his highest favored enemy bonus to all attack rolls and damage rolls for attacks made with ranged weapons. This does not stack with his normal favored enemy bonus when targeting a creature that qualifies as a favored enemy. This ability replaces all spellcasting, and the Ilsurian ranger is not considered to have a caster level.

So if I were to lets say start with Favored Enemy human and keep stacking it, at level 5 I would have +4 against humans, and +2 against anything else and the second favored enemy, lets say orcs

But at level 10, if I pump Favored Enemy Human again, would I have +6 vs humans, +2 vs orcs and +3 vs anything else? Or would it be +6 vs humans, +3 vs anything else?

The wording has me slightly confused, because I could see it going either way. Thoughts?

One level in ranger wouldn't be enough, they don't have a caster level until 4th, so I believe they can't use wands without UMD until then. The druid one works fine though.

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I can't seem to find it at the moment, because I can't remember it's name, but it was a 3.5 joke homebrew class that could ride anything. A prerequisite was a low int score, because you needed to not know that you couldn't ride the thing you wanted to ride.

It could ride literally anything, and I think at later levels it even got 1 hour before the thing in question even got a save. You could just hop on a Tarrasque and control it for an hour before it even had a chance at control.

One guy played it once in a campaign, and we discovered that the source of evil we had been fighting was blot the guy in control of the castle, but the castle itself, so we had to figure out how to destroy it.

I suggested "Hey, couldn't you just ride the castle into a volcano or something? "

To which he replied "Man, you're thinking too small. I'm gonna ride the volcano into the castle! "

We decided not to do that as we knew the Dm already had a quest ready and didn't wasn't you derail the campaign, but he still rode a volcano later.

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deuxhero wrote:


Full BAB, no spells: Warrior
3/4 BAB, no casting: Aristocrat

I jokingly made an Aristocrat for Hells Rebels and was surprised by how useful he was without any class features.

Well I actually made a Vigilante who pretended to be a hired Bodyguard for the aristocrat who was his twin brother so they switched places from time to time, but sometimes I actually was playing the aristocrat.

They have decent proficiencies at least.

I hit the FAQ button because I've wondered about this for a while.

I just want to know how effective Thibbledorf Pwent is, I want to build him.

avr wrote:
When you're holding the charge on chill touch, casting any other spell will dismiss chill touch harmlessly. i.e. casting shocking grasp will lose any remaining charges of chill touch.

Someone recently pointed out this post from James Jacobs saying that's not the case


Not a hard rules source, but may be why the question came up.

RAW you can't take Racial Heritage for the planetouched races, even though those traits exist because you don't get racial traits like that.

The Oread one came up recently, and it also wouldn't work. It just gives you two of the racial traits they have, you don't actually count as a dwarf. The feat is dwarf blooded btw.

Rules have been covered, but I'm definitely in the "depends on the situation" house rule camp. Especially because many forms of martial arts can be practiced without a partner. (The only one I can think of where you really can't is Judo, and you still could for holds, just not throws which is the majority of it)

Like I would allow monkey style for climbing, as well as the ability to hop up as a swift action (it's just a kip up really). But I wouldn't have you negate the prone penalties if you were caught unawares. The reason being, the first two you were using what you've practiced, your body knows how to do it, but the last one you weren't actually ready for combat.

I might even let you activate it before combat starts if you're aware (conversation clearly going that way, you're being threatened, etc)

For elves, I don't remember where it came from, but one of the ways we have handled it was that they age physically fairly similarly to humans, but they're expected to stay in their communities, doing a few things in the 90 or so years before maturity. Primarily, this includes learning about whatever they want and partying so hard over the course of 90 years that they take a penalty to con. By the time they reach 110, they're done partying, they have learned a bit of this and that, and are ready to be productive members of society.

The feat Breadth of Experience could also be used as an indicator of relative experience, because you can take it at level 1 as an elf, implying that they have been going out and doing/ learning things for a very long time.

Just because it stacks with everything, take Quingong archetype too. I don't know what you would replace (maybe something for bloodcrow strike? That seems thematic) because I don't know what you have left to trade, but boom 4 archetypes.

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Lady-J wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
I don't know the rogue's exact stats and equipment, but he upgraded his equipment at 6th level, so let's figure on +2 chain shirt and +1 ring of protection, along with Dex 18 and the Dodge feat. That would be AC 22. That is not bad for 7th level.
that's a terrible ac for level 7 as a frontliner..... should be around 27 at that level no wonder he's getting murdered every combat
Um, I explained that he was not a frontliner.
every one who does combat primarily in melee is a frontliner, there are 3 types of characters frontliners, ranged characters and casters however each type is divided into sub-types using frontliner as an example you have the melee dps, combat maneuver instigators and you have the tanks...

Interesting, because that's not how I've seen such things broken down before, suggesting to me that you are using different metrics with the same vocabulary.

For instance, the split between caster and frontliner isn't there in terms I've seen before, such as clerics who can be both at once (not too mention magus). Plus casters can easily fall under ranged as well.

So while under your definition, the character is a frontliner, under his it isn't.

On the topic of Rogues, I think something that's being misconstrued is that people saying its the weakest aren't saying you can't do well with a rogue, or even that a rogue can't be better at something than other character. It is just that given the same level of optimization, there are other classes can do what the rogue does (sometimes better than the rogue) along with other things, which makes them a weaker class.

I love rogues, I've loved playing as rogues, and I've even been asked to tone down my effectiveness to be more in line with the rest of the party. I still say they are the weakest class. I find it true if we are just using core, or adding in hardcover books, and other splat books.

Unchained Rogues certainly are better than cor, but they still haven't gotten the sheer amount of support that monks have (who I also consider an especially weak class when using core only,that I still love) to make them better.

Like when Ultimate Combat came out, I remember people referring to it as Ultimate Monk, because of how many new things they put in it for them. Archetypes really gave monks a significant boost, but rogues just didn't get the same level of boosts over the years.

If you're going with the necklace of fireballs attempt, might I also suggest carrying a jar of Brown Mold with you, to immediately follow it up with cold damage. It's nonlethal, but it could help the party.

Set wrote:

Cleric. I can play a half dozen clerics, and depending on deity choice, they feel nothing alike.

*snip different characters*

Every one is different, and my Cleric of Nethys/student of Thassilon feels nothing at all like my fussy status-conscious Cleric of Abadar/Kalistocrat.

This reminded me, I've also had lots of fun with alchemists because each one can be so different. I once played in a game where it took 4 sessions before two of the players noticed we were the same class. (They just transferred from 3.5, I was a Mr Hyde sort of alchemist, the other player was a bomber)

I definitely feel like the two should stack, but I am not sure about the order of operations. So I hit FAQ. I had not considered how many different ways it could be interpreted.

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blahpers wrote:
I'd allow it, so long as it's a boat suitable enough to call a place. Skull & Shackles pirate ship--sure. Canoe--not unless you're a termite.

Now I'm picturing an oracle carrying a kayak with him everywhere.

My characters were often barbarians or sorcerers for a long time, so when Bloodrager came out, I was thrilled.

They also helped with our world building, after Kingmaker sorcerers and Bloodragers were my main go to classes because of an originally off hand comment that snow balled into a multi game theme. I chose the Imperious Sorcerer because it seemed right for Kingmaker, something came up about legality and I said, don't worry I've got a cousin who is an Infernal Lawyer, referencing my previous character, a Tiefling sorcerer who was a lawyer and made deals.

Now every sorcerer and Bloodrager I play are related and sometimes come up in other games. Later in Kingmaker we had a huge festival to celebrate becoming our own Kingdom and one of the main performers was my Maestro bloodline sorcerer from Rise of the Runelords.

So sorcerer, Bloodrager and barbarian are the ones I've had lots of fun with.

Arm bands of the brawler are fairly cheap and give a bonus to grappling.

Giant Ancestry human racial trait gives +1 to cmb.(trades out skilled)

Bred for War human race trait (not racial trait) gives +1 to CMD as well.

I am playing a grappler currently, and thank you for reminding me that the brawling enhancement exists.

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I can't even imagine a GM finding out you were intentionally cheating going "you got me" like it's a prank oor something, I would expect it to be more like, "Why would you do that? "

It is abusing your friend's trust. I just don't understand where you're coming from on this, Former Fiend, am I missing something?

Why the level in commoner?

But if it is mechanically a human only thing then it doesn't matter. Half orcs are mechanically human, right? It's what allows all sorts of other things, like picking their favored class bonuses and feats.

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