| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See the other problem is you have to fight the wizard completely on his terms he gets to choose where the fight is and the weapon not many people can win in that situation. why is it the mage doesn't have to come after the rogue (then its a stalemate right?) or a neutral ground instead of the wizards fortress a giant arena both combatants come in unprepared for the other one and go at it (much fairer then infinitely prepared mage with infinite resources) Really though the whole fallacy is there not really PC's battling there more like DMNPC they didn't have an adventuring career that shaped what they are what spells or tactic they favor whats feats etc. the only influence is hypothetical each other. too sterile
That's why I think it would fairer and more accurate for someone else to be the GM, so the two people could see more realistically. The advantage of choosing the battlefield is HUGE and will definitely make the Wizard more powerful.
For all experiments all variables must remain the same, except for the one you're testing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The thing is that as far as I know the rogue player agreed to these terms.
If I was the rogue player but I got to play with an entire 4 man party of tier 1 casters built any way I desired, I would still expect to lose horribly. The fact that the rogue player expects to win despite the odds being horribly stacked against them reeks of hubris.
maybe the mage player just isn't very good and won't think of all the things you guys are thinking of?
maybe the mage player just isn't very good and won't think of all the things you guys are thinking of?The thing is that as far as I know the rogue player agreed to these terms.
If I was the rogue player but I got to play with an entire 4 man party of tier 1 casters built any way I desired, I would still expect to lose horribly. The fact that the rogue player expects to win despite the odds being horribly stacked against them reeks of hubris.
If your plan depends on the other guy screwing up of their own accord, then it is a &%$%y plan.
lol i;m not saying your wrong here i agree whole whole heartedly. but you can only prepare so much at some point your going to have to just accept there is nothing more you can do and hope luck is on your side.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
+1
Also, reading it all summarized like that makes me realize that this thing is even more stupid than I thought.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
yeah i just kind of want to saunter away red-faced looking at the ground...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the other side, trying to rescue the planetar once called can be tricky, as the planetar may have to fight its own allies (or command them to go away), depending on the deal made during Planar binding.
Would a player run wizard, if aasimar and thus a legal target for planar binding, agree to any service which might require them to fight and kill their friends when summoned by planar binding? Especially when they expect their friends are likely to mount a rescue? Is that reasonable?
Planar binding explicitly states that "unreasonable commands are never agreed to". I would argue that violating one's alignment (for an outsider exemplifying the good alignment in the case of a Planetar) by fighting allies attempting to free you is unreasonable.
The reason planar binding is considered so powerful is because it is sometimes treated like a standard summon monster spell. I think it should be treated as an entire social roleplaying scene with the NPCs having motivations, and the wizard's actions having consequences.
Planar binding can probably be used to summon low level devils and demons without severe problems by a 20th level wizard (as their bosses probably don't care, and in some cases see it as a corruption of the wizard), but summoning and trapping some of the most powerful creatures in Golarion, both in combat potential and social status, should matter.
In any case, I wouldn't expect the rogue to run into rooms full of 18 HD outsiders in the wizard's demi-plane. Possibly low and mid-level hit dice bindings, or lots of summon monsters IXs with unlimited duration on a timeless plane. If it is filled with 17-18 HD outsider bindings, simply walk back out and ask the GM what happens after 20 days pass.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Protection from evil prevents mental control, regardless of source.
...Please check your sources before making statements like that.
Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?
No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil.
I truly hate Paizo's FAQ system. :/
This is flat out game changing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See the other problem is you have to fight the wizard completely on his terms he gets to choose where the fight is and the weapon not many people can win in that situation. why is it the mage doesn't have to come after the rogue (then its a stalemate right?) or a neutral ground instead of the wizards fortress a giant arena both combatants come in unprepared for the other one and go at it (much fairer then infinitely prepared mage with infinite resources) Really though the whole fallacy is there not really PC's battling there more like DMNPC they didn't have an adventuring career that shaped what they are what spells or tactic they favor whats feats etc. the only influence is hypothetical each other. too sterile
That's why I'm not really agreeing to the restrictions put on the rogue by the "GM"/player of the Wizard. If the rogue is so weak, why would you need to restrict what he can or cannot do to try to win?
Any class can beat any class if you completely neuter one side.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Initially, the binding allows for a Will saving throw. A planetar has a will save of +19, A DC 30 save isn't exactly insurmountable. This is not including it's spellcasting abilities.
DC 27 actually (10 + 8 spell + 9 intelligence).
And I accounted for it in my list of examples.
Moreover, the protective aura of All angel subtypes includes a "magic circle vs evil which prevents compulsion (mental control).
As said by other, it doesn't prevent neutral source of mental compulsion.
However, Planar binding isn't a compulsion, so even an evil wizard can call an angel and bind it.
So, you are down to doing the whole bargaining for cooperation bit. Which may be a charisma check that the wizard can easily make given additional spells, but even then the Planetar is a caster as well, and should have buffs running as much as any prepared PC.
Fair enough. The "standard" spell list doesn't include any buff that last more than a couple minutes however. At best, we're looking at +2 to its charisma modifier, but that won't be a game changer.
We will suppose the nature of the service is opposed to the outsider but not impossible or unreasonnable (+6 to the outsider's opposed charisma roll), and the wizard will not offer any rewards (+0 to the wizard's opposed charisma roll).If this is the case, that is perfect. It plays right into my tactic. Now, here's where the lawyer in me says you need to write out the terms of this planar binding's service.
This is where the great weakness of the planar binding spells exist. Unless you cover every eventuality, the rogue will be able to essentially bypass these "guards" via diplomacy.
Except that I implied those modifiers in order to have the worst possible chance for the wizard. In a real negociation, the wizard will offer rewards (which may or may not cost money), and will ask things that are well received by its target.
You know, when you don't want your favorite(s) outsider(s) to pursue you afterwards, or even better, when you want to have more than magical binds between you and the outsider.
And then, i wonder how the rogue will know how to find the loopholes in a contract established by an entity with at least 29 intelligence prepared for as long as he needed to prevent such loopholes.
See the other problem is you have to fight the wizard completely on his terms he gets to choose where the fight is and the weapon not many people can win in that situation. why is it the mage doesn't have to come after the rogue (then its a stalemate right?) or a neutral ground instead of the wizards fortress a giant arena both combatants come in unprepared for the other one and go at it (much fairer then infinitely prepared mage with infinite resources)
Honestly, it is even worse for the rogue if he was the prey and not the hunter. Unlike the wizard, he wouldn't have any clue as to when the wizard would attack (so, probably no buff). And nothing the rogue could have would prevent a wizard from obliterating him (and his house).
An neutral arena/fortress would be different, but even then, the wizard will probably be victorious.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Protection from evil prevents mental control, regardless of source.
...Please check your sources before making statements like that.
Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?
No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil.
I truly hate Paizo's FAQ system. :/
This is flat out game changing.
??
It is only 'game changing' if you weren't doing it the way the book says... and if that is the case you are equally free to continue not doing it the way the book AND FAQ now say.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I could defeat a rogue with a wizard if he got to pick where to fight. Just getting past limited wish -> geas is pretty hard.
negative energy plan hes gonna be a little late but just go on in he will be right there to fight you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I could defeat a rogue with a wizard if he got to pick where to fight. Just getting past limited wish -> geas is pretty hard.negative energy plan hes gonna be a little late but just go on in he will be right there to fight you.
Subverting geas (or even a limited wish -> geas) is easy. Make yourself deaf. Understanding his communication is a requirement for geas to work.
If it has to be interpreted it's not a clear command.And make sure you are not familiar with any sort of lipreading, sign language, or even crude gestures from the Wizard? If the Wizard tells the Rogue to go to sleep, or gestures for the Rogue to, that could be interpreted as a clear command.Subverting geas (or even a limited wish -> geas) is easy. Make yourself deaf. Understanding his communication is a requirement for geas to work.I think I could defeat a rogue with a wizard if he got to pick where to fight. Just getting past limited wish -> geas is pretty hard.negative energy plan hes gonna be a little late but just go on in he will be right there to fight you.
You have to interpret speech by listening and processing what was said, even a simple imperative like "go to sleep" in your native tongue.
All clear commands require interpretation. Gestures would absolutely work. You don't get to sidestep a geas by sticking your fingers in your ears.
If you gesture at me to tilt my head and close my eyes I just have to tilt my head and close my eyes to fulfill the Geas. Just because you wanted it to mean lie down and go to sleep doesn't compel me to see it that way or mean I even would recognize it as a potential intent.
Maybe you're all world class Charades players and that's skewing your view.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have to roll a skill check, it's not a clear command. And you can't be forced to roll a skill check.
Moreover, you can create a spell that has the same effect as the alienation psionic power and apply it to yourself and you are good to go.
One limited wish and geas ....wasted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course if the GM decides it's reasonable... And the GM is e wizard...
Of course if the GM decides it's reasonable... And the GM is e wizard...
lol so true it might as well be DM vrs lvl 20 rogue or the main character in a book vrs the writer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
So the OP said all Pathfinder, does that mean the Wizard gets Sacred Geometry? Free metamagic for everything!
*snigger*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Math is hard for writers ok
So they put All of the Maths in there and hope for the best?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It occurred to me, shouldn't the wizard have to pay for all extra spells in his spellbook (beyond the few gained by leveling)? Since we're assuming no overly beneficial NPCs on either side, the scroll sourcing and spellbook scribing costs should add up.
No. Take another look at 20th level expected wealth; a few tens of thousands of GP are nothing.
I want to help you realize what you just said.It occurred to me, shouldn't the wizard have to pay for all extra spells in his spellbook (beyond the few gained by leveling)? Since we're assuming no overly beneficial NPCs on either side, the scroll sourcing and spellbook scribing costs should add up.No. Take another look at 20th level expected wealth; a few tens of thousands of GP are nothing.
Fire away. Or do you think that a twentieth or less of the wizard's wealth will make a difference to the outcome here?
I've seen this 'but what about the wizard's spellbook costs?' before. The people who raise the question have never done the math about how little money it actually is relative to the normal wealth by level figures.
Edit: Oh, and you may enjoy this thread.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"No NPC allies" and "No NPCs whatsoever" are two very different things, unless you're arguing that both sides are naked and with no equipment until they start putting ranks into mining, harvesting, weaving, and other resource gathering skills so they're allowed to have shirts, pants, swords, armor, and any gear whatsoever.
There's standardized rates for copying spells from another Wizard's spellbook. They're not allies. They're shopkeepers. Again, unless you're arguing that neither side can buy metal/wood/stone, let alone the finished weapons/armor/rings/everything.
Now, thankfully, someone has done the numbers, and here's the scroll/spellbook only version, which comes out to 500k to know every Core Wizard spell (basically paying the highest cost possible). Here's the better version, using all spells to January 2015, Blessed Books, and paying other Wizards. Comes out to 150k, but it is @#$%ing everything, even the stuff you probably don't care about. 1,213 total, so even if you prepared none of the same spells it would still take you at least two weeks to prepare all of them.
minecraft style you want it you make it.
I can't really say that every spell in the book was what I was thinking there either. A little thought should be able to cut down the spells you want a great deal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
.
So the OP said all Pathfinder, does that mean the Wizard gets Sacred Geometry? Free metamagic for everything!
The only cost is your self respect.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was thinking something more along the lines of the Rogue taking lipreading or some form of sign language (Drow Sign Language?) with their languages known, and the Wizard abusing that. Or the Wizard just having preprinted geas command cards.
That's the thing, the wizard has to guess how to communicate to the rogue. If the rogue doesn't take any skills that facilitate communication...being illiterate, and deaf for example, allows for prevention of all communication based spells -- unless the wizard specifically uses more resources to facilitate said communication.
And if the wizard misses his guess, the spell is attempted but wasted.
There are far too many people who have convinced themselves that there are *no* counters to the power of a wizard.
The counter to the power of a wizard is in the choices of the wizard. He still has to follow the rules of the game. Wrong choices = defeated wizard.
There is a 5th level Telepathy spell if you're that worried about it.
There is a 5th level Telepathy spell if you're that worried about it.
Requires the recipient to have a language. No language, no telepathy.
And for a wizard, it's a 6th level spell. Unlikely to be memorized, given the options.
I'm not saying that these counters are absolute, but there *are* counters to the tactics that people say are insurmountable.
It just takes some forethought.
There are also magic items that cause backlash when the bearer is attempted to be contacted via telepathy/mental contact.
There is a 5th level Telepathy spell if you're that worried about it.Requires the recipient to have a language. No language, no telepathy.
And for a wizard, it's a 6th level spell. Unlikely to be memorized, given the options.
I thought we were talking about a 20th level Rogue trying to avoid a Limited Wish Geas (which is even bigger garbage than my user name, incidentally) through something like Silence or Deafness/Blindness mitigated through some other senses. I don't think there's a way to remove your knowledge of language and still function, so I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that Telepathy plus a Limited Wish to simulate Geas does sound like a sure winner if there's no SR, Spell Immunity, Turning, etc. in play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Wizard doesn't have "infinite" time. They have some kind of demiplane lair, and that (at a minimum) requires some setup time. Part of that setup presumably also includes making/getting the guards and minions to staff it. The highest number I've seen given on the Wizard side for bound outsiders is 20 Horned Devils (and I think that was mostly flippant). The person advocating for the Rogue was the one who suggested the Rogue summon 1,000 Lantern Archons in response.
I believe the 20 horned devils was me, and I wasn't being "flippant".
Depending on the amount of time available to the wizard he could certainly call and bind 20 horned devils, which would be virtually impossible for the rogue to beat under circumstance the wizard could cause (dead magic demi-plane).
I mean I guess it is flippant in that I think the whole situation is farcical and strongly agree with the statement that "a wizard who gets to pick the battlefield and has an unspecified amount of preparation time has a very very low chance of losing assuming they have good system mastery, especially for magic and what it can and can't do".
Ultimately this isn't about what the ideal rogue can do against a wizard.
It's about who has better system mastery and thinks things out more. Whomever has better system mastery will win. However, a 20th level wizard played by someone who has equal system mastery to a player playing a 20th level rogue will win 99.9% of the time, IMO.
not just illiterate, no language at all.
If you are on a solo mission, being able to not have a language for a short duration would seem to be a benefit, would it not?
I thought we were talking about a 20th level Rogue trying to avoid a Limited Wish Geas (which is even bigger garbage than my user name, incidentally) through something like Silence or Deafness/Blindness mitigated through some other senses. I don't think there's a way to remove your knowledge of language and still function, so I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that Telepathy plus a Limited Wish to simulate Geas does sound like a sure winner if there's no SR, Spell Immunity, Turning, etc. in play.There is a 5th level Telepathy spell if you're that worried about it.Requires the recipient to have a language. No language, no telepathy.
And for a wizard, it's a 6th level spell. Unlikely to be memorized, given the options.
With this common spell combination in play, would it not make sense for the rogue to prepare a counter?
Or are we dealing with the most ignorant rogue on the plane vs Shrodinger's Wizard?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would make sense if this were the best defense. Other than Feeblemind and Primal Regression, both of which have terrible downsides, what can strip the ability to use language away?
A Ring of Spell Turning would make more sense than trying to erase your ability to understand language. (So the Wizard leads with Mage's Disjunction or (better) Euphoric Tranquility).