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Even if you know the location of the plane where the wizard called the outsider (and honestly, it's very unlikely), this plane is one of the numerous that the wizard has.It doesn't mean that it is the main plane of the wizard (it would be stupid).
Having a starting point other than where the wizard is expecting the rogue to show up is the point.
The rest is espionage. Information gathering. The simple fact is, Plane #6 exists, and because it exists, it can be infiltrated.
Get one of the devils to drop a small unique object upon being called that is able to attach itself to the wizard's clothing which allows the rogue to do a discern location after being triggered is easy enough a tactic.
You expect the wizard to be a dick with called outsiders, while it's the worse way you could deal with it. You even seem to believe that a couple days means a lot in the lifetime of an outsider, and that a wizard can't provide anything to him (while the rule itself provides such rewards.
No, I expect the outsiders to be annoyed about being yanked from their own business by a mortal wizard, someone beneath them. Their egos would facilitate cooperation with the rogue.
Absolutely no one in this thread lead the planar binding description with reward or compensation -- the immediate and only assumption give -- by all posters that are on the wizard's side is that the outsiders *have no choice*. So, yeah, not a large assumption here.
And even with a reward given, the wizard has limited funds -- as defined by his WBL.
Alternatively, the wizard can simply create a demiplane and be sure no one except himself know about it. Being protected against mind reading and discern locations, nothing but a god will be able to know its existence.
Incorrect, see above.
I'm pretty sure I'm able to make a plane 5 that is not possible to break through.
I'm pretty sure that the designers of Alcatraz thought the same thing.
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The Wizard isn't summoning Frank, the horned devil, just a horned devil. Unless the Rogue has some way to predict exactly which horned devil will be randomly sent, how is that contingency useful at all? Or did the Rogue put it on every horned devil?
All devils have their own names. Finding out which ones are being called is a matter of espionage.
Discern location has a 10 minute casting time, do you think the Wizard can't ID the contingency going off and take appropriate countermeasures in 60 rounds? There's also a 5% chance the Sending failed.
Unlikely, given it's instantaneous nature. As far as he knows, a contingency with no visible effects just went off.
If he has no idea what the effect is, what exactly is he countering?
Wish is banned. So it doesn't matter what it can do.
If Wish is banned, then I would stipulate that limited wish is as well. And if it is not, limited wish would do just as well to accomplish what needs to happen.
Again, the Wizard isn't summoning the same devils over and over. Just some random horned devil.
I don't see that in the details. Moreover, divination can determine the next one that the wizard calls to narrow down the options. You guys seem awful ready to stipulate details that for some odd reason are favoring the wizard despite the fact that he is all knowing and all powerful -- and eager to gloss over details that may show a chink in his armor.
No NPC allies. This includes "all the forces of hell".
So, wait, the Wizard can call and bind npc allies, but the rogue can't use diplomatic skills to subvert said allies?
Just how slanted of a battlefield are you needing to win this contest?
Btw, they aren't allies. They just have common goals and decide not to harm each other in the acquisition of those goals. There is no help required.
I'm the one who said that the Rogue should use rumormonger on the Heavenly planes to spread a rumor that the 20th-level wizard is planning to destroy creation. The OP said it was cheese, so I guess it's not allowed.
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I'm the one who said that the Rogue should use rumormonger on the Heavenly planes to spread a rumor that the 20th-level wizard is planning to destroy creation. The OP said it was cheese, so I guess it's not allowed.
Yeah, anything that has the potential of working will be declared cheese, I'm guessing.
I think the point was lost as to why summoning super powerful outsiders for this scenario isn't feasible.
A. Good outsiders aren't going to stand around in a box waiting to kill some random person
But protecting an entity that has enough power to influence even planar conflicts would be in the very best for Good outsider.
Knowing that the project of the rogue is pure and simple premeditated murder, I don't know what would prevent an angel to kill that rogue in retribution.
Of course, an evil wizard won't call an angel...
B. Evil outsiders, devil in particular, are going to skew any contract or negotiation heavily in their favor
Knowing that it is the wizard that does the contract and that he makes use of the most powerful spells to make sure that contracts stands, I doubt devils would betray such contracts.
Especially if the wizard offers them something they want (and the wizard can offer pretty much anything).
C. A level 20 Wizard is going to smart enough to know all of this and bind lesser creatures or just use golems.
Those high level bound creatures are not the whole defense of a 20th level wizard. It's only a little part of what he is able to bring to the battlefield if he wants to.
There is also Dominate person (for giants), Dominate monster, Animate Dead, Create Undead, simulacrum, Lesser bound monsters, Summoned monsters (in a timeless plane), ...
And minions are not his only strength : the wizard is one of the best in battlefield control (through walls, clouds, ...), has access to shapechange to be on par with a rogue in physical combat without much problem and can even manage without much problem to kill the rogue in one spell if he uses AMF.
Finally, even if the rogue manage to get pasts the minions, escape the battlefield control and deal with the wizard in combat, the wizard may be entirely safe through the use of clones, magic jar, Astral projection, bound outsiders, charmed/dominated clerics/druids/..., etc...
I don't know how a rogue can kill a 20th level wizard, even moreso when the rogue wants to use as little magic as possible.
Knowing that the project of the rogue is pure and simple premeditated murder, I don't know what would prevent an angel to kill that rogue in retribution.
I believe that it was a challenge, not premeditated murder.
Especially if the wizard offers them something they want (and the wizard can offer pretty much anything).
Wish can't be used. By agreement. If the rogue can't use it, the wizard can't wither. There isn't much a wizard can give an outsider that the outsider doesn't already have other than not constantly being called by a mortal to play rent-a-cop.
The Wizard isn't summoning Frank, the horned devil, just a horned devil. Unless the Rogue has some way to predict exactly which horned devil will be randomly sent, how is that contingency useful at all? Or did the Rogue put it on every horned devil?
All devils have their own names. Finding out which ones are being called is a matter of espionage.
[blink] Are you conducting a roll call of Hell to see who's missing and them posting their pictures on milk cartons?
I don't see that in the details. Moreover, divination can determine the next one that the wizard calls to narrow down the options
[blink][blink] How? I'll grant that Divination can give vague answers about the future concerning plans/tendencies in motion, but I don't think there's a spell that will give you a specific name in response to something that is basically a random number generator picking form all of the (at least millions) of that outsider type available for binding. Your campaign world has bigger problems than the power of Wizard 20s if this is possible.
So, wait, the Wizard can call and bind npc allies, but the rogue can't use diplomatic skills to subvert said allies?
There are rules for mechanically and reliably binding outsiders to binding agreements that they can't violate. There are no rules for using diplomacy to convince someone to overcome a binding magical compulsion. "Allies" here means no vague handwaving of the sort you're trying to do here. You could take Leadership, but the OP didn't want to because that would only be useful if he picked a spellcaster to do all the work for him.
Just how slanted of a battlefield are you needing to win this contest?
LOL. The whole point of this argument is that the published rules make this impossible from the beginning. It's only slanting the battlefield with made up implausible hand wavy "espionage" and grand conspiracy mumbo jumbo that you're able to argue against one of the (dozens) of ways the Wizard can absolutely shut down a Rogue.
I think the point was lost as to why summoning super powerful outsiders for this scenario isn't feasible.
A. Good outsiders aren't going to stand around in a box waiting to kill some random person
B. Evil outsiders, devil in particular, are going to skew any contract or negotiation heavily in their favor
C. A level 20 Wizard is going to smart enough to know all of this and bind lesser creatures or just use golems.
I don't understand what any of this has to do with the opposed Charisma check that is easily won using the Agonize and/or Moment of Prescience spells vs. any outsider up to the 18 HD limit of Greater Planar Binding. This is accomplished through clear rules with easily used tools to accomplish a certain result, not writing a nice enough story to justify it in your mind.
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All devils have their own names. Finding out which ones are being called is a matter of espionage.
And yet, knowing an information that no one in the multiverse knows is impossible.
Even the use of a "know the future" spell will be impossible (because the answer is ofter "Yes" or "No", not "The devil Apfqlmqoznqmalna will be the one randomly called the 10th of this month by Joe-the-wizard").
So no, no one (not even the wizard) will know which unique devil will be called, unless the wizard use a true name (which he can, and probably will if he manages to be friends with an outsider).
Unlikely, given it's instantaneous nature. As far as he knows, a contingency with no visible effects just went off.
But contingency can't be cast by the outsider and on the outsider.
So, even in the miracle that you manage to find which outsider will be called and manage to make friends with that outsider before the call, it won't be of use.
For the record, nothing prevents the wizard to add a Mind blank/mage's private sanctum/... to its list of spells to cast when he call an outsider.
If Wish is banned, then I would stipulate that limited wish is as well. And if it is not, limited wish would do just as well to accomplish what needs to happen.
Honestly, wish is of no importance. The rogue will use a scroll, which doesn't have a component.
I don't see that in the details. Moreover, divination can determine the next one that the wizard calls to narrow down the options. You guys seem awful ready to stipulate details that for some odd reason are favoring the wizard despite the fact that he is all knowing and all powerful -- and eager to gloss over details that may show a chink in his armor.
Divination can do a lot of things, but they can't be precise enough to do what you want it to do.
Contact other planes, which is one of the most powerful divination of the game, can provide answer like "Yes, No, Maybe, ...".
Nothing in the game can do what you want to do with it. Otherwise, the wizard would know you want to do that too (if you are allowed open and clear answers, there are no reasons the wizard isn't allowed too, and he can aks if someone will interfere with his calling and how).
So, wait, the Wizard can call and bind npc allies, but the rogue can't use diplomatic skills to subvert said allies?
I don't have a problem with it personnaly.
Remember though that the wizard too can use diplomatic skills with said npcs, and he can be amazingly good at it (even moreso if he invests skill ranks in diplomacy, which wouldn't be a huge sacrifice for his 12 skill ranks per level).
And the wizard doesn't need to buy a bunch of scrolls just to be able to talk to them, as he is able to move through planes and between planes easily (and for free).
You should also remember that a reward/offer can be in gold/items, but also in help or services.
Wish can't be used. By agreement. If the rogue can't use it, the wizard can't wither. There isn't much a wizard can give an outsider that the outsider doesn't already have other than not constantly being called by a mortal to play rent-a-cop.
Wish is one of the weakest 9th level spell. Why would a wizard use it to fulfill a demand of an outsider ?
You can already do pretty much anything Wish can do (except +X to attribute) with your other spells, without having to spend 25000gp everytime.
Yes, devils have names. You don't need to use them to bind one.
No you don't, but you can find out through divination which one is the next one to be bound just as easy as the wizard is able to find out when the rogue is about to do whatever he wants to do.
A spell with no components is still identifiable.
That is a FAQ about a spell *being cast*, not simply taking effect. The devil isn't casting the spell, it's being executed via contingency. There are no "special effects" that happen for him to identify.
The simplest "counter" would be to collapse the plane. Then the Rogue get to teleport to a random location on the Astral plane. Good luck getting back (the devil can't help).
You are wasting a lot of energy trying to prevent conflict with a lowly rogue. Demi-planes aren't dismissable. You'd have to do something like disjunction to do your "counter".
I'd have fun just watching you counter every potential action. How much sleep are you getting with those hour-long cast times for all these demi-planes?
They were very explicit on no leadership and no outside allies (thieves guild was the specific idea rejected). They also very explicitly said they expected the Wizard to have bound outsiders.
The Rogue is not using leadership and has no outside allies. He's using diplomacy to subvert the bound outsiders that the wizard is calling.
What divination is the Rogue using? How are they casting it?
Come on, really? Why is it that what the wizard wants is hand-waved with no contention or detail, but the rogue must detail everything? There are literally hundreds of ways for the rogue to get divinations cast on his behalf. P.S. these don't count as allies.
If they're not allies, what are they?
Expressly neutral towards each other...common goals do not allies make.
The Wizard is using Contact Other Plane to figure out where the Rogue will show up. You can't show up somewhere unexpected because that's how crank calling gods works.
All questions are answered with "yes," "no," "maybe," "never," "irrelevant," or some other one-word answer.
Enjoy your 20 questions session with your not so friendly Deity. You aren't guaranteed results. You have about a 10% chance of getting a lie or random answer -- weren't you posting before about the sending having a 5% chance of failure like it was significant?
And you are doing this daily.
What's the devil's Sleight of Hand?
Irrelevant -- the devil does it when the wizard is not there. Can't spot something where you aren't there.
It is very unlikely that after hundreds of bindings out wizard is going to personally inspect his targets.
The plainest Wizard can still beat their SR on a 7 and has about a dozen different ways of permanently removing them from existence without needing to contend with their regeneration.
You presume really mundane tactics on the part of your opponents, don't you?
I don't understand what any of this has to do with the opposed Charisma check that is easily won using the Agonize and/or Moment of Prescience spells vs. any outsider up to the 18 HD limit of Greater Planar Binding. This is accomplished through clear rules with easily used tools to accomplish a certain result, not writing a nice enough story to justify it in your mind.I think the point was lost as to why summoning super powerful outsiders for this scenario isn't feasible.
A. Good outsiders aren't going to stand around in a box waiting to kill some random person
B. Evil outsiders, devil in particular, are going to skew any contract or negotiation heavily in their favor
C. A level 20 Wizard is going to smart enough to know all of this and bind lesser creatures or just use golems.
You can't understand because you have no imagination :-P
Assuming a Pit Lord, that's DC 43 to stop combat and talk. Since the feat requires Persuasive plus 15 CHA and this is a level 20 character, a rogue with 15 CHA would have a +26 on his Diplomacy check with no other feats, traits, or talents, let alone magic items. Let's toss on Skill Focus: Diplomacy (+6) and let's make this a Human with Silver-Tongued (+2), and let's tack on one of the +1 Diplomacy traits. So, that's a +35, meaning a 8-20 on the die. Now, the rogue can make another check to convince the Pit Lord to let him pass get revenge on the mage who summoned the Pit Lord, since such a great being shouldn't sully his hands on a mere mortal. Assuming a hostile DC, the rogue would need to beat a DC 38+5 (43) to bring the Pit Lord to Indifferent and make a request. That request to just stand aside and let him be that Pit Lord's tool of revenge would be an automatic success at a DC 28. Again, this is with three feats and a single trait for a level 20 rogue.
You can't convince someone not to do something they are magically compelled to do. You can only convince them do something that their free will allows. Actions contrary to an Planar Binding agreement (or a Dominate, but not a Charm effect) aren't subject to diplomacy. At best you can Bluff that you aren't the droids they're looking for, but if they're looking for all the droids ("kill everyone who passes through this room") you're toast.
I think the point was lost as to why summoning super powerful outsiders for this scenario isn't feasible.
A. Good outsiders aren't going to stand around in a box waiting to kill some random person
But protecting an entity that has enough power to influence even planar conflicts would be in the very best for Good outsider.
Knowing that the project of the rogue is pure and simple premeditated murder, I don't know what would prevent an angel to kill that rogue in retribution.
Of course, an evil wizard won't call an angel...
Unless that wizard is expressly working for the good of all or some evil goal, good outsiders wouldn't even care what this wizard could do because they know clerics imbued with divine power and righteous goals who are far more worthy of protecting and nearly as powerful. And of course, they have other angels that WILL influence planar conflicts.
B. Evil outsiders, devil in particular, are going to skew any contract or negotiation heavily in their favorKnowing that it is the wizard that does the contract and that he makes use of the most powerful spells to make sure that contracts stands, I doubt devils would betray such contracts.
Especially if the wizard offers them something they want (and the wizard can offer pretty much anything).
Devils don't betray contacts; they make contracts in their best interest. If a wizard is going to bind a devil, then he better plan on killing that devil once he gets what he wants because he's not going to outmaneuver a powerful devil (who's spent aeons manipulating mortals) through a contract.
C. A level 20 Wizard is going to smart enough to know all of this and bind lesser creatures or just use golems.Those high level bound creatures are not the whole defense of a 20th level wizard. It's only a little part of what he is able to bring to the battlefield if he wants to.
There is also Dominate person (for giants), Dominate monster, Animate Dead, Create Undead, simulacrum, Lesser bound monsters, Summoned monsters (in a timeless plane), ...
And all of that would be better to use and way more reliable than trying to bind high-level outsiders for the sole purpose of a killing a single rogue.
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Call Truce
You forgot something important :
Special: If the parley would inherently result in the opponents surrendering or losing, if the opponents are mind-controlled or fanatics, or if there are other appropriate circumstances at the GM's discretion, you might not be able to use this feat.
I guess that betraying a wizard with the means to escape, call you again and permanently destroy your very essence is similar to losing.
I guess that having accepted a contract through Planar binding is similar enough to mind controlled to at least give a bonus to the DC (if not just forbid the check).
I guess that 35% chance of failure when you forgoe any stealth attempt is a risk high enough to make this strategy dangerous.
Noting that it won't affect simulacrums (they are under absolute control of the caster) and many other minions.
And all of that would be better to use and way more reliable than trying to bind high-level outsiders for the sole purpose of a killing a single rogue.
A 20th level wizard doesn't need those to kill a rogue (even a 20th level rogue).
A wizard needs 6 seconds. And too bad, a rogue can't kill a wizard in those 6 seconds.
Bound outsiders are for real threats, or when you want to do something of great importance (or protect your base from those threats).
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You can't convince someone not to do something they are magically compelled to do. You can only convince them do something that their free will allows. Actions contrary to an Planar Binding agreement (or a Dominate, but not a Charm effect) aren't subject to diplomacy. At best you can Bluff that you aren't the droids they're looking for, but if they're looking for all the droids ("kill everyone who passes through this room") you're toast.
From Planar Binding:
"Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions."
Explain that by letting you pass, you'll just be walking to your death because you're just a man who's picking a fight with someone who bound a monster. Letting you pass is effectively killing you, lol
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Call TruceYou forgot something important :
Special: If the parley would inherently result in the opponents surrendering or losing, if the opponents are mind-controlled or fanatics, or if there are other appropriate circumstances at the GM's discretion, you might not be able to use this feat.I guess that betraying a wizard with the means to escape, call you again and permanently destroy your very essence is similar to losing.
Call Truce just means that you guys stop trying to kill each other for a second and talk. And why do you think a Wizard would have all of these contingencies that a TIMELESS BEING would both be unaware of and unable to prepare for? And that wizard would have to take to figure out exactly what happened
I guess that having accepted a contract through Planar binding is similar enough to mind controlled to at least give a bonus to the DC (if not just forbid the check).
Here, you're just 100% wrong. Bound creatures retain the entirety of their free will. There's zero magical compulsion from accepting the contract. The external, non-magical compulsion comes from the promise to be set free.
I guess that 35% chance of failure when you forgoe any stealth attempt is a risk high enough to make this strategy dangerous.
I'm assuming that you meant Diplomacy, not Stealth.
Anyway, I gave the Rogue the minimum requirements for the feat plus Skill Focus against the planar binding target with the highest CHA. If we're doing this for real, then add the Charmer Rogue Talent (roll twice, take highest 4x/day), change the trait to one that grants a +2 to Diplomacy (Enemy of Slavers, Destined Diplomat, Patient Optimist, Ambassador, Illuminator, etc.), make the Rogue's base CHA 16 instead of 15 for another +1, a Headband of Mental Prowess +6 (Int/Cha) with Linguistics/Knowledge: Planes/Perform: Sing). Oh, and let's add the +3 for a class skill that I didn't bother to include. So, that's +43 to Diplomacy. And just for fun, let's change the race to Half-Elf with the Sociable racial trait (-2), and toss in a Cloak of the Diplomat (+5 to Diplomacy). That's a +46 to Diplomacy with only two magic items and still +38 in a dead magic plane (+48 and +40, if we stick with a Silver Tongued Human). And that's not even the best Diplomacy bonus.
All of that still gives the rogue 7 feats, 9 talents, 140 skill points (with 10 INT), and 9 item slots to do more clever stuff.
Noting that it won't affect simulacrums (they are under absolute control of the caster) and many other minions.
Noting that we're talking about bound outsiders, but a level 20 rogue a 7 WIS can still have +21 to Sense Motive and automatically recognize a simulacrum, anyway.
And all of that would be better to use and way more reliable than trying to bind high-level outsiders for the sole purpose of a killing a single rogue.
A 20th level wizard doesn't need those to kill a rogue (even a 20th level rogue).
A wizard needs 6 seconds. And too bad, a rogue can't kill a wizard in those 6 seconds.
Bound outsiders are for real threats, or when you want to do something of great importance (or protect your base from those threats).
Assuming that the Wizard has 14 Con, max hit dice, and has Toughness, there's no way a Rogue could do 160 damage in one round?
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Call Truce just means that you guys stop trying to kill each other for a second and talk. And why do you think a Wizard would have all of these contingencies that a TIMELESS BEING would both be unaware of and unable to prepare for? And that wizard would have to take to figure out exactly what happened
It is easy to know what happened : a rogue managed to get through the room unarmed, so the outsider didn't do its job.
The wizard decides to make an example of this outsider, calls it and utterly destroy it.
All of this is pretty simple to understand. Having such a wizard as an enemy is very dangerous, and having him as a friend is a blessing.
I'm assuming that you meant Diplomacy, not Stealth.
No, I meant Stealth, as you have to be in plain sight to affect people with your feat.
On one side, if you win the check, affected creatures will stop fighting.
On the other side, unaffected creatures (which may well be in the same room) will be aware of your presence automatically and attack you.
And the worst thing is that if you draw a weapon/wand/... to fight back, not only the affected creatures won't help you, but the effect from the feat will be uneffective and they will also attack you.
I even forgot you have to use a full round to activate the feat. This means that you are on the open, for 1 full round, and enemies have that whole round to attack you if they want (just as with 1 round spellcasting, the effects start on the start of your next round).
Noting that we're talking about bound outsiders, but a level 20 rogue a 7 WIS can still have +21 to Sense Motive and automatically recognize a simulacrum, anyway.
It doesn't matter if you recognize them or not.
If the affected creatures are not alone, your whole plan goes down.
Assuming that the Wizard has 14 Con, max hit dice, and has Toughness, there's no way a Rogue could do 160 damage in one round?
Assuming a standard wizard with no toughness and assuming standard spells and magic items, I'm finding more like 223hp (72 base + 100 con + 20 favored + 31 greater false life).
Then, the wizard has his contingency, his long last buffs, etc...
Finally, the first round, it is very unlikely the rogue will do a full attack. He has very little chance to do a full sneak attack.
Accounting for to-hit chance, defense spell(s), damage per successful attack, etc... I guess doing more than 200hp damage is pretty damn difficult for a rogue.
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Has this contest taken place yet? It's been almost a month already. If it has taken place do we know who won and how?
The Wizard set up no defenses, the Rogue stealthed right in and got a surprise round attack that missed due to Moment of Prescience. The diviner wizard won initiative and cast Imprisonment to win. Fin.
No, you can't.
Yes, you can.
A spell with no components is still identifiable.
Identify a spell effect that is in place
The Wizard still autopasses the check.
Limited Wish -> Dispel, auto-succeeds, Plane Shift home (Quickened with Sacred Geometry). It's not "countering the Rogue", it's countering someone reaching the Wizard's plane (personally, I'd assume another Wizard). 2 hours, same as everyone else.
So, you are spending chunks of your WBL to respond to what amounts to trolling.
The devils bound by the strict letter of the contract to "I will not cause harm or through inaction, allow harm to come to my summoner"?
Boom, you just got gang mauled by all of your bound outsiders. Congrats. This is why you do not hand-waving binding outsiders.
The rogue didn't have to do a thing.
Weekly, monthly, etc. On the regular, to at least two different deities, and at least one more if their answers conflict.
There is nothing allowing you to control which deity/power you contact.
Until they're released from the circle they can't do anything to cross it. The Wizard isn't leaving until they've got an agreement (with Moment of Prescience). Once the devil is released from the circle they need to obey whatever deal they agreed to, which would prevent them from enacting the plan.
Yep, and if the contract is what you stated above, you are pretty dead. Moreover, even though they can't cross it, that doesn't say anything about anything else not crossing it, or them doing something inside it or to it. Say use an item that makes the protection from evil circle moot, or the wizard's dimensional shackling moot as well. An Ioun stone does that quite nicely.
Now you have an angry horned devil on your hands.
You are hand-waving auto-success against a sentient species, expecting no repercussions.
Unless the Wizard has some other use for them, I'm 100% sure that's what's going to happen if the Wizard finds them attempting to betray the Wizard.
You presume simple tactics as well. What makes you think they will reveal their plans should they figure out a loophole (as I did) to your contract?
The Wizard set up no defenses, the Rogue stealthed right in and got a surprise round attack that missed due to Moment of Prescience. The diviner wizard won initiative and cast Imprisonment to win. Fin.
Do any of you use tactics other than a straight up fight?
Sorry, got an update, that initial report was false. The Wizard cast Demand to send a Suggestion to the Rogue that they meet alone in a neutral spot to settle their differences peacefully. He was compelled to show up, where he was easily killed by the Wizard striking first from Greater Invisibility with Time Stop summons for assistance and mopup.
Sorry, got an update, that initial report was false. The Wizard cast Demand to send a Suggestion to the Rogue that they meet alone in a neutral spot to settle their differences peacefully. He was compelled to show up, where he was easily killed by the Wizard striking first from Greater Invisibility with Time Stop summons for assistance and mopup.
Too bad a a single 1st level spell prevents this little tactic (made quasi-permenant via ioun stone).
So, you show up at a neutral site, thinking you have the upper hand, the rogue uses this to his advantage by telling your unbound horned devils where you are so they can show up with friends.
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Protection Against (Alignment) only works if the caster is of that alignment. If you're true neutral you're golden against all versions.
Outsiders don't have unlimited ability to engage in planar travel. If they somehow do, the Wizard sees them and leaves.
Protection Against (Alignment) only works if the caster is of that alignment. If you're true neutral you're golden against all versions.
Outsiders don't have unlimited ability to engage in planar travel. If they somehow do, the Wizard sees them and leaves.
Wrong spell.
According to SKR when asked about the subject, the wayfinder will give no protection from a non-evil caster.
Wrong item. This would be a custom-made ioun stone.
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Protection Against (Alignment) only works if the caster is of that alignment. If you're true neutral you're golden against all versions.
Outsiders don't have unlimited ability to engage in planar travel. If they somehow do, the Wizard sees them and leaves.
Wrong spell.
Wrong item. This would be a custom-made ioun stone.
According to SKR when asked about the subject, the wayfinder will give no protection from a non-evil caster.
So a custom made Ioun stone that give protection from all compulsions and mental control?
Mind-Butressing , will probably cause less friction. As it doesn't open the custom magic item can of worms problem.
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Protection Against (Alignment) only works if the caster is of that alignment. If you're true neutral you're golden against all versions.
Wrong spell.
Which one?
Wrong item. This would be a custom-made ioun stone.
According to SKR when asked about the subject, the wayfinder will give no protection from a non-evil caster.
Thank you for giving up. But I'll pretend you're serious: What if the Wizard makes a custom made item that instantly kills level 20 Rogues with no save who approach within 1,000 miles? As long as we're making stuff up.
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Why is this Thread still going?
Without Major nerf/Bans the Rogue has no chance to defeat a Wizard.
There is a reason a Wizard is a tier 1 class and a Rogue is a Tier 5 Class.
A real wizard without MAJOR ban list and Gimping, without question, has the tools and abilities to kill any rogue by RAW. Especially if they have ANY kind of Knowledge of the rogue.
Only way a Rogue has a prayer is if the DM heavily blocks the wizard and gives the rogue many advantages. Which it sounds like this is what it is gonna be.
So it will not be a real "Win" for the Rogue.
A "real" win, but a heavily qualified one.
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A "real" win, but a heavily qualified one.
Do you See Championship fights where one of Fighters has both hands tied behind his back, Ankles tied together, Blindfolded, and starts on the ground...verses someone with no restrictions.
No you don't, because it would not be a real fight. And if the guy who beats the tied up guy thinks he just had a major victory. I would Wager that individual would be a completely deluded and conceded individual.
Call Truce just means that you guys stop trying to kill each other for a second and talk. And why do you think a Wizard would have all of these contingencies that a TIMELESS BEING would both be unaware of and unable to prepare for? And that wizard would have to take to figure out exactly what happenedIt is easy to know what happened : a rogue managed to get through the room unarmed, so the outsider didn't do its job.
The wizard decides to make an example of this outsider, calls it and utterly destroy it.
All of this is pretty simple to understand. Having such a wizard as an enemy is very dangerous, and having him as a friend is a blessing.
LOL! "Make an example of this outsider", aka, call down the wrath of the heaven, if it's a good outsider. Or, in the case of an evil outsider, guarantee his own death/enslavement because devils and the like will have a plan to kill this wizard based on his reputation.
I'm assuming that you meant Diplomacy, not Stealth.No, I meant Stealth, as you have to be in plain sight to affect people with your feat.
On one side, if you win the check, affected creatures will stop fighting.
On the other side, unaffected creatures (which may well be in the same room) will be aware of your presence automatically and attack you.
And the worst thing is that if you draw a weapon/wand/... to fight back, not only the affected creatures won't help you, but the effect from the feat will be uneffective and they will also attack you.
I even forgot you have to use a full round to activate the feat. This means that you are on the open, for 1 full round, and enemies have that whole round to attack you if they want (just as with 1 round spellcasting, the effects start on the start of your next round).
There's a reason I didn't mention Stealth; you obviously can't be hidden when you use this feat. It also doesn't have a range.
And your "worst thing" isn't even relevant because:
There are no "unaffected creatures" with a successful check. Any creature that isn't mind controlled stops fighting. And if there's a mind controlled creature, the feat doesn't work at all.
Noting that we're talking about bound outsiders, but a level 20 rogue a 7 WIS can still have +21 to Sense Motive and automatically recognize a simulacrum, anyway.It doesn't matter if you recognize them or not.
If the affected creatures are not alone, your whole plan goes down.
Since our hypothetical Rogue has a +21 on his Sense Motive, he can automatically recognize mind controlled creatures. And sit down for this one, because I'm about to blow your mind: He can try something else.
Assuming that the Wizard has 14 Con, max hit dice, and has Toughness, there's no way a Rogue could do 160 damage in one round?Assuming a standard wizard with no toughness and assuming standard spells and magic items, I'm finding more like 223hp (72 base + 100 con + 20 favored + 31 greater false life).
Then, the wizard has his contingency, his long last buffs, etc...
Finally, the first round, it is very unlikely the rogue will do a full attack. He has very little chance to do a full sneak attack.
Accounting for to-hit chance, defense spell(s), damage per successful attack, etc... I guess doing more than 200hp damage is pretty damn difficult for a rogue.
First, if this a standard wizard, where are you getting 100hp from CON?
Second, if the rogue goes first, the Wizard's flat-footed. Greater Sniper Goggles + Rapid Shot + a Masterwork Shortbow + 20 DEX (i.e., low balled numbers) = +19/+19/+14/+9. Admittedly, not that great, especially since even if all of those hit that's only 33 per hit average or something. If only the rogue could do something, like Master Strike to one shot the wizard...
A "real" win, but a heavily qualified one.
Do you See Championship fights where one of Fighters has both hands tied behind his back, Ankles tied together, Blindfolded, and starts on the ground...verses someone with no restrictions.
No you don't, because it would not be a real fight. And if the guy who beats the tied up guy thinks he just had a major victory. I would Wager that individual would be a completely deluded and conceded individual.
I think you missed the words "heavily qualified" when you hastily added in "major" in your response.
It is real.
Just because this wizard doesn't have those things doesn't mean that this victory is shallow. It just means that this wizard isn't optimized - a rather common presumption for many tables, I'll note, even with otherwise very intelligent and well-regarded individuals.
A non-diviner wizard who has conjuration as their forbidden school isn't an unfathomable creature to exist within the wide world of magical whatsits.
A wizard lacking a spell noted as uniquely researched and designed by and for a single guy who was not known for sharing - anything, ever - is similarly not surprising. A wizard who doesn't have infinite wishes is called, "What most people play at their tables." instead of, "Unnecessarily gimped."
None of the things here are actually unreasonable, even added together.
But here's the thing.
If I put a world-class boxer into a cage-match with world-class assassin and tried to determine which one was more dangerous, I'd get an interesting result: the boxer would almost certainly win, and it would be a "real" victory... but it would be a heavily qualified victory, because, outside of that specific environment, the boxer is not likely to survive for long.
That's the situation we have here. It's a possible victory - a "real" victory, even. But we have to recognize that it's a qualified victory: that is, a victory where the circumstances favor one person over the other. And let us not delude ourselves into the ridiculous comparison you made. The wizard is hardly comparable to a warrior with, "both hands tied behind his back, Ankles tied together, Blindfolded, and starts on the ground" and the rogue definitively does not have "no restrictions" (especially considering he listed several on himself from the get-go, and has rejected a couple of his better survival plans based off of the idea that they seem like "cheese" and/or are outside of the scope of this particular challenge).
So: no. I entirely reject your comparison.
So, YEAH. Friend of mine challenged me. I need to build a level 20 rogue that can go toe-to-toe with a wizard, after slogging through his tower, and give him a few new orifices. Orifii?
Feat suggestions, Rogue trick advice, prewritten guides, gear, PrCs, you name it, would all be appreciated.
Three major rules:
1) Everything must be 100% Pathfinder. No 3.5 manuals.
2) No "Gish" (gestalt)
3) No cheese balling. RAW, yes, but no intentional abuse of the rules (such as a thousand shrunken Kobold archers with Swarming and special made projectile weapons through the Creating New Weapons rules allowing for a 890 foot range as a simple weapon).Beyond that, anything anyone can give as advice would be phenomenal. I have a base plan, but I'm wildly open to anything.
Step one stealth
step two stealth
step three stealth
step four sneak attack one hit combo
i like having not read any of this and jumping to post 500 to see it's about i guess getting an entire plane to kill the wizard?
Thank you for giving up. But I'll pretend you're serious: What if the Wizard makes a custom made item that instantly kills level 20 Rogues with no save who approach within 1,000 miles? As long as we're making stuff up.
It isn't made up. It's a spell published in a Paizo Hardback book. Very recently in fact.
It doesn't prevent control per-se, but more as a side effect. I mentioned this effect up thread.
i like having not read any of this and jumping to post 500 to see it's about i guess getting an entire plane to kill the wizard?
Nope, our wizard as controlled by Bob Bob Bob, committed suicide through bad binding contract that left large enough holes in it to have a Semi-Truck convoy pass through akin to that song from the 70's.
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You don't need any wealth to bind. It's just an opposed Charisma check that you can manipulate with no cost spells. Really, I promise, it's right there in the published rules.
LOL! "Make an example of this outsider", aka, call down the wrath of the heaven, if it's a good outsider. Or, in the case of an evil outsider, guarantee his own death/enslavement because devils and the like will have a plan to kill this wizard based on his reputation.
Yes, "Make an example of this outsider".
As in : "If you are my enemy and try to kill me, then even if you're a millenia old entity I utterly destroy you until not even a trace of your soul exists in the multiverse. Oh, and that's not just talk. Now, it can go 3 ways : either you're an enemy, an ally or you stay out of my way."
There's a reason I didn't mention Stealth; you obviously can't be hidden when you use this feat. It also doesn't have a range.
And your "worst thing" isn't even relevant because:
There are no "unaffected creatures" with a successful check. Any creature that isn't mind controlled stops fighting. And if there's a mind controlled creature, the feat doesn't work at all.
Yes, the feat works. It targets every creature, but only the "not mind controlled, not fanatics, ..." are affected.
In a room where there are 6 creatures, including 4 affected creatures and 2 simulacrums, the 2 simulacrums can still attack.Oh, you didn't post anything regarding the 1 round thing anyway.
Since our hypothetical Rogue has a +21 on his Sense Motive, he can automatically recognize mind controlled creatures. And sit down for this one, because I'm about to blow your mind: He can try something else.
Yes, I can.
First, if this a standard wizard, where are you getting 100hp from CON?
I said earlier in this thread that I considered a standard wizard as having 10/14/14/16/10/10 as his "before racial" attributes.
You add a belt of +6 CON and you have +5 modifier. +5 modifier x 20 levels = 100 CON hp.
That is standard common knowledge wizard equipment coming from the core rulebook.
Second, if the rogue goes first, the Wizard's flat-footed.
Nope. The wizard can be immune to flat footed in several ways. One very common form to be immune to flat footed is Foresight in a ring of continuation.
Against a diviner, it's not even fair without Foresight : unless you can beat his initiative during the surprise round (which is probably very difficult to do), you won't even get a surprise attack in a surprise round where the wizard failed his perception check to notice the rogue.
But being immune to sneak attack is much easier anyway.
Greater Sniper Goggles + Rapid Shot + a Masterwork Shortbow + 20 DEX (i.e., low balled numbers) = +19/+19/+14/+9. Admittedly, not that great, especially since even if all of those hit that's only 33 per hit average or something. If only the rogue could do something, like Master Strike to one shot the wizard...
Master strike needs a lot of things, and you can only try it once againt one person.
Then, you forgot about contingency (which could very well be a spell that can prevent attacks).
Close! You're Forgetting The Inevitable "Well Then The Wizard Would Just Cast 'X'" type of hindsight that comes with all these threads! And a character wealth of infinite proportions in order to summon bind and bribe an army to fill every plane, all of which will adjust by the very hindsight mentioned before.
All that I wrote can be used by a single wizard with one build with normal WBL (so, not a Schrodinger wizard). Things I used are Core rulebook, Ultimate Magic (only the demi plane thing) and ring of continuation (Ultimate equipment ?) until now. What do you think a wizard could do when I pick in every PRD ressources ?
EDIT : I don't know if I will have time before this week end, but i'll try to post a build very soon.
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Post-Occult Adventures a Wizard 20's body (or Astral Projection) shouldn't be immediately vulnerable, anyway. He should be using Greater Possession on the strongest outsider he can reliably take over every day. (Use Dominate Monster so he can't get away if he makes the save on a particular day.) If that body gets killed no biggy, its just a HP buffer with SR and energy resistances they have to burn through to get to you.
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And that's Claxon's plan. Mine involved MechaCthulhu (9,000 gp) and MechaHekatonkheires (6,000 gp), maybe an Adamantine doubleGolem (7,500 gp). Everything else was just free spells.
That's not even really my plan.
I mostly ever just suggested bound outsiders and was asking how the rogue intended to deal with that, with the specific extension of it being done in a dead magic demiplane (because the wizard can determine when the rogue will come).
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TBH , "rogue Players" are only trolling in this topic sooo far...
Schrodinger's rogue for the win with ultimate custom items WBL and spells in his sleeves !
This topic Crops up in the Forums on a regular and its the same thing over and over. Rogue Fanboys defending one of the worst mechanical classes in the game and pretending like they are a T1 class.
I'm wishing the Admins would just lock this useless thread already and any more Baiting style Threads that crop up.