RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If I wanted to play a min-maxed fighter build then I wouldn't be choosing a Halfling. I'm playing the race and class because I want to make a character who has to overcome certain obstacles and learn to be more creative about how to achieve victory. He doesn't do things as well as other fighters but he has his own advantages. He doesn't move as quickly but its hard argue his proficiency at holding off a hoard of enemies in a narrow tunnel. He doesn't hit as hard but he has enough charisma to utilize some successful intimidate or diplomacy rolls to possibly shift the course of battle. I've never said a Halfling Fighter is as good as a human fighter in terms of...
If people are going to complain about me not min-maxing a set of stats and instead building a "Character" to "Roleplay", then those aren't the kind of people that I want to game with. I play Characters, not uber maximised walking stat blocks. Yes, of course I try to optimise where I can, but that is a secondary consideration. I play Pathfinder (or almost any other RPG) to Play a Role, not to Fill a Hole.
...That's part of the race. They have disadvantages. If I wanted to play a min-maxed fighter build then I wouldn't be choosing a Halfling. I'm playing the race and class because I want to make a character who has to overcome certain obstacles and learn to be more creative about how to achieve victory. He doesn't do things as well as other fighters but he has his own advantages. He doesn't move as quickly but its hard argue his proficiency at holding off a hoard of enemies in a narrow tunnel. He doesn't hit as hard but he has enough charisma to utilize some successful intimidate or diplomacy rolls to possibly shift the course of battle. I've never said a Halfling Fighter is as good as a human fighter in terms ofThere's also a bit of an issue of "wasted stats". If you're building a Halfling Fighter to be, basically, the same as a Human Fighter, you're probably:
1.) Wearing Full Plate
2.) Dumping CharismaSo you have a race that gives you +2 Dexterity (absolutely worthless to you with a whopping +1 Dex limit) and +2 Charisma (a stat you care nothing about).
That ON TOP OF:
1.) A Str penalty (-1 damage) [Technically, really, -2 damage since you don't get a Str BONUS either. -3 because of 2-Handing)
2.) a CMD penalty
3.) Lower damage dice (depending on the weapon of choice, anywhere between 1-2 damage less on average, and a lower minimum damage as well in the case of the Greatsword)
4.) Difficulty of gaining Reach
5.) Turtle-like speed (20 feet a move is already frustrating, lowering that to 15 is excruciating)The Small sized melee build then, generally, suffers the Death of a Thousand Cuts. It's not any one big thing, and it isn't TERRIBLE, but all the tiny little things add up in the back of your head quite quickly until you start wondering why you're bothering. Because there are very few (if any) character concepts you can execute with a Halfling that you can't with a Human...so you're hindering yourself for basically no reason.
I guess my problem is that it isn't done respectfully and it happens constantly. Also my characters in many ways proved to be by no means a weakness. I've hit the hardest and beaten the most enemies in a combat but they continue to jest and insult. This obviously isn't everyone I've played with but the number is shocking. I've dealt with it best I could but at times I had to leave because it was getting abusive.
Because some gamers dislike sub-optimal performance from a character, but that's due to a perception (mostly false) that game stats and builds reign over all. I built a tortured female halfing survivor who was a giant hunter using the air elemental totem and the titan mauler arcetype, who used dual flails after a local air spirit saved her from being thrown off a cliff after being enslaved by a group of stone giants. I've also seen halfling fighters and cavaliers with riding dogs who were as effective as any human paladin, let alone halfling swashbucklers or feral alchemists and so on. And you can turn around and be annoyed that other people pointed out this build might be sub-optimal. Especially if you're in a group that supposedly highlights roleplaying over rollplaying.
Going against the grain and having fun is part of the joy of a character. Why be an elf archer or the dwarven cleric? Those tropes have been done to death over the last 32 years since 1st Ed really came out. I even played a paladin of Arvoreen in earlier editions with the level caps for a halfling, and he rocked. Or a kender fighter/rogue, and so on. Given that the assumed level of play is a 4 man band with a 15 pt build, any party is feasible as long as it has the equivalent thief, fighter, wizard, and cleric available. How about an entire party of halflings, who use teamwork feats and their smaller stature to outmaneuver opponents? Or a group of gnome illusionists and badger cavaliers? So yeah, Small melee races rock. Moving even further down the line try a grippli bard who is a dervish dancer archetype. Or a derro weaponmaster with an akyls or a fauchard. There is more to combat then a reach tank with Combat Reflexes or a barbarian with smash pounce charge BS.
Flavor over function. Always!
Play a concept, not a set of mechanics that pump out X damage/round. That's super lame, especially for the GM when you one-shot every enemy...and especially for the other players who rolled a lower initiative...and especially for yourself whom you're cheating out of any creative play.
Besides, in high levels it doesn't make that much difference anyway. Kinda the same way a d8 weapon is comparable to a 2d6 weapon once you add on 10 levels of feats and class abilities.
That being said, it doesn't get much more flavorful than the Feral Gnasher barbarian arch for Goblins: A wild, lockjaw, ankle-biting horror that latches on to you and then proceeds to beat you with a club (or whatever is laying around with Impromptu Armament/Catch Off-Guard). lol! I haven't had a chance to build and play one yet, but it's next on my list. Small races are awesome and can be terrifying martial characters!
They can get enough flame resistance that you could set yourself on fire then lockjaw on people or just give them hugs. Either way you can set fire to others in funny ways using goblins.
Anyway for small races in general, don't forget the classic throw your ally action. Flying halfings are always nice in a fight.
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Carry capacity is a joke once you get a bag of holding. Until then you can increase carry capacity in several ways, not to mention that while small characters have 3/4 the carry capacity of medium characters, small gear is half the weight of medium gear, meaning they can carry more personal gear than an equivalent Str medium character.
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Muleback cords and ant haul/ant haul communal are your friends.... And not all fighters are BSF. Some use bows, or spears, or these sharp pointy things called rapiers or even dual daggers. Or you can get actual mules with muleback cord variants/ant haul communal cast on them, or do this thing called multiple trips for stuff, or even shockingly enough, go to the local temple of Abadar and put stuff in a bank. Let alone bags of holding or portable holes or flatboxes or even Secret Chest!
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And also halflings are not short humans. They run the gamut from communal farming utopians to angry assassins to mob bosses to druids who love to cook and so on. Some even act as mules and cast loving eyes at their companions and comfort them in times of need.
Do any of you have small race warriors who took on the stereotype that they cannot be given a sword or axe without hurting themselves? Who were your favorite PC's or NPC's?
I'm playing a goblin unchained rogue 5 / unchained barbarian 4 right now in an Iron Gods campaign. He handles all the trap finding and stealth stuff (his stealth is insane) and he's by far the most effect front-line combatant in the group - the synergy between unchained barbarian and unchained rogue combined with the URog's dex-to-damage and sneak attack debuffs make him absolutely deadly. Toss on a Haste and a Bless and he's carving up baddies.
Plus, he's a lot of fun to role-play.
Really, if you think about, every race is just [Insert Adjective Here] Human.
Hanflings are short humans.
Dwarves are underground humans.
Elves are pretentious humans.
And so on and so forth...
I have never had any problems with damage output past level 3. My Gnome barbarian was actually the hardest hitting member in the group. But besides that, if your character is worth only what he can dish out damage wise then I feel it's not a very interesting character. A small fighter who is creative can easily beat out any number of "Kick Door Fight Orc" human or orc warriors.Because you have to be 1000% optimized to even bother showing up each week and that average dpr of 11 instead of 13 is a bridge too far.
Really, you expect me to roll a d6 for damage? I mean you already can't hit anything if your starting Str is below a 20 right?
Sorry, I thought my sarcasm was coming through loud and clear.
I my point is that for many players they are so obsessed with getting the best stats ever they miss the forest for the trees. Like the guy up-thread that said there stat bonuses are wasted. A bonus to your dump stat (for point-buy) is actually a boon. Dumping Cha to 7 gives you 4 points but with racial bonus it's only a 9.
At 15 point buy, without major dumping your can have a stat array like this:
15 13 12 13 10 9.
This is a fighter that can take Combat Expertise.
Or this: 15 15 12 10 10 9. Two Weapon Fighting.
Or if you want to really go crazy with the dumps:
16 14 12 8 10 9.
This is hitting at a -1 vs a Human with floating bonus in Str, but with 2 higher AC and better saves.
People get so hung up on the idea of a small character that they never get to the numbers to see if it is any good or not.
There's also a bit of an issue of "wasted stats". If you're building a Halfling Fighter to be, basically, the same as a Human Fighter, you're probably:
1.) Wearing Full Plate
2.) Dumping CharismaSo you have a race that gives you +2 Dexterity (absolutely worthless to you with a whopping +1 Dex limit) and +2 Charisma (a stat you care nothing about).
That ON TOP OF:
1.) A Str penalty (-1 damage) [Technically, really, -2 damage since you don't get a Str BONUS either. -3 because of 2-Handing)
2.) a CMD penalty
3.) Lower damage dice (depending on the weapon of choice, anywhere between 1-2 damage less on average, and a lower minimum damage as well in the case of the Greatsword)
4.) Difficulty of gaining Reach
5.) Turtle-like speed (20 feet a move is already frustrating, lowering that to 15 is excruciating)The Small sized melee build then, generally, suffers the Death of a Thousand Cuts. It's not any one big thing, and it isn't TERRIBLE, but all the tiny little things add up in the back of your head quite quickly until you start wondering why you're bothering. Because there are very few (if any) character concepts you can execute with a Halfling that you can't with a Human...so you're hindering yourself for basically no reason.
Keeping the fighter example
1) Armor training allow more dex to AC, or just go for an archetype that replace heavy armor prof.
2) You have +2 extra ac from being a halfling
3) bonus to saves that are always welcomed for fighters.
4) good cha can be a way to build on eldritch heritage feats.
5) Access to risky striker.
6) easier to make mounted builds.
All in all, I feel that hafling can be very decent fighters, probably very good paladins and cavaliers. Not sure about the others but I'm just thinking about an aberrant bloodrager and suddenly slow speed and reach is not a problem and the halfling enjoys a healthy +2 to cha.
I have never had any problems with damage output past level 3. My Gnome barbarian was actually the hardest hitting member in the group. But besides that, if your character is worth only what he can dish out damage wise then I feel it's not a very interesting character. A small fighter who is creative can easily beat out any number of "Kick Door Fight Orc" human or orc warriors.Because you have to be 1000% optimized to even bother showing up each week and that average dpr of 11 instead of 13 is a bridge too far.
Really, you expect me to roll a d6 for damage? I mean you already can't hit anything if your starting Str is below a 20 right?
Sorry, I thought my sarcasm was coming through loud and clear.
I my point is that for many players they are so obsessed with getting the best stats ever they miss the forest for the trees. Like the guy up-thread that said there stat bonuses are wasted. A bonus to your dump stat (for point-buy) is actually a boon. Dumping Cha to 7 gives you 4 points but with racial bonus it's only a 9.
At 15 point buy, without major dumping your can have a stat array like this:
15 13 12 13 10 9.
This is a fighter that can take Combat Expertise.
Or this: 15 15 12 10 10 9. Two Weapon Fighting.Or if you want to really go crazy with the dumps:
16 14 12 8 10 9.
This is hitting at a -1 vs a Human with floating bonus in Str, but with 2 higher AC and better saves.People get so hung up on the idea of a small character that they never get to the numbers to see if it is any good or not.
A pet peeve of mine is when people try to defend getting a bonus to your dump stat. The solution is simple: just dump less.
If you want your fighter to have good strength and a not 7 or 8 charisma, don't buy a 7 or an 8. If you compare two characters that both have good strength and a 9 charisma (your number, for example) the guy with a +2 in strength instead of in cha has...
even points at str 14
one more point at str 15
two more points at str 16
three more points at str 17
four more points at str 18
(And no option to go higher, which is where min maxing BEGINS, not continues.)
I was being generous and not taking a -2 str into account, because we're talking about halflings, but really these numbers should be even more skewed.
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I wish you guys would quit using the same excuses. You list your math and when the aspect of character building instead of class building is brought up you just fallback on people as being a~@*#%!s. I want to know why be a~++*#%s in the first place? Are they afraid of being shown up by someone who doesn't care about making the best build and proving number crunching is not the reason this game was made? Do you feel that if you have every statically advantage then it permits you to avoid playing smart and instead stride in without a care in the world and hack your way to a hollow 20th level? Choose to play that way but keep it to yourselves.I cannot possibly roll my eyes hard enough. The question you asked was "Why don't people like to play Small sized melee types?"See... he didn't. He asked why people put down the players/characters that play/are small-sized melee types.That's one facet of a larger discussion, yes. That bit has the simpler answer, and it's broadly applicable.
Q: Why do people make fun of other people for their chosen playstyle?
A: Because people are a$@$*+$s.You read between the lines at statements like this:
why wouldn't a Halfling take up a longsword, throw on some chainmail, and try to become a knight or sellsword.taking something that shouldn't work and let it go. Was he dealing as much damage as a Human or if he would have chosen a ranged build? No, but this was far better in my mind.And it's pretty clear that from the start this was a discussion of why Small races aren't popular to play as Fighters or other melee sorts. Which is, regardless, a more interesting discussion to have than "Why do people make fun of me for playing Small characters", which as we've established is "Because people are a%~#+@~s".
Im responding specifically to the sentence, "Are they afraid of being shown up by someone who doesn't care about making the best build and proving number crunching is not the reason the game was made?"
I would appreciate your clarification on what you mean because on the surface this is hyprcritical and misinformed.
First, halflings are bad fighters, (the role not the class) objectively. You will stand up nobody who does the same thing as you and is medium. A small barbarian is quite strong, a medium barbarian is stronger.
Secondly, this seems to be a boast about character strength, that also shames people who build for mechanical strength. Are you not afraid of being shown up by someone who builds to be a badass? Of course you might not, but that requires you assume the same for them.
IDIC vs the One True Way
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No, because almost nobody builds medium martials that don't have +2 racial strength. At 20 strength power attacking with a greatsword a low level medium martial averages 17 damage. A small martial with 16 strength averages 12.5. That's 36% more damage. That's a big deal at the levels where martials are most important. Who cares if the gap is smaller at the levels where both are obsolete anyways because the cleric can do their job better.So, effectively 2-3 points different, on average (2 points of Str is 1 dmg, and the difference between small weapons and medium weapons is rarely more than 2 points on average).-2 str and one step lower dmg dice and need to grow 2 sizes to get 10ft reach.
That's the primary reasons.
Actually quite a LOT do. Dwarfes are superp martials!
Swashbucklers are for sure martials and do not need strength.
I think Anton (the OP) cares more about the very negative feedback from fellow players than about the mechanics of Small melee characters. But a majority here (including me) focused on mechanics so far. Maybe because out of habit, maybe because we are (in average) more familiar with game mechanics than with social stuff.
As a player of a halfling rogue, I experienced quite a few jokes on my PC's expense. Even after several years, it doesn't get old for some people. Well, they are grumpy, set in their ways and don't target me directly - so it's ok.
I was playing with some people I hadn't met before. My usual group are totally accepting of my small characters and they have backed me up when new players have come in and rolled their eyes at my Halfling fighter or Gnome Barbarian. They just find it useless because it isn't fully optimized and they have reduced cool characters to numbers which is what frustrates me the most. My Gnome Barbarian, Obie, wrestled and hogtied a Bugbear with his bare hands. I presented the captive to the party and the response was lukewarm at best. I couldn't understand it.
Well, players insisting in 'optimal' characters are usually fear-driven - they are afraid to fail. And they have trouble to see that a different build also means new chances - instead they focus on problems. Finally, they cling to their opinions, trying to ignore any evidence that they could be wrong, e.g. the hogtied bugbear. Because if they would change their opinion, that would be a risk.
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For as long as I have played RPG's, I have always come across people who are almost insulted by the mere thought of a Halfling taking a melee combat role. It's almost as bad as the paladin hate I have seen from so many people. You put a longsword in a Halfling's hands and next thing you know everyone is laughing at him, giving him stupid nicknames, and even kicking him as if to prove to him he can't keep up. Then they get shocked and offended when said Halfling sticks a knife in their knee.
We all know Halflings are astounding rogues, bards, and even spellcasters but those can become so boring. Sure we all know the witty and charismatic Halfling with a heart of gold almost as full as his coin purse. If we look at the Halfling race as a whole, we are missing out on some crucial character opportunities. Halflings are innately lucky and as such they tend to be braver to the point of being considered suicidal at times. Why wouldn't a Halfling take up a longsword, throw on some chainmail, and try to become a knight or sellsword.
One of my favorite characters to DM was my friend Ian made a Goblin Paladin of Iomadae The character, Sir Boogoo Raven-Blade, was such a hilarious clash of race and class that melded into a beautiful character who retired at level 19. Seeing a little ugly Goblin Paladin scavenging in junk piles for scraps of metal and cloth to repair his homemade armor and sword after taking down a few Orc Bloodragers made him truly memorable. His mighty dogslicer, named Scrap, cut down wizards and barbarians, Giants and Kobolds. He never used bows or fire as he thought they were cowardly weapons that made his people weak and as he got higher in level he actually started a small knight school for Goblins who wanted to become more than what their race was expected. He actually became a very respected and reputable warrior/teacher. This is just one example of taking something that shouldn't work and let it go. Was he dealing as much damage as a Human or if he would have chosen a ranged build? No, but...
I made a Halfling Monk.
No one laughed at me when beat up a goblin tribe mostly by myself and two dire bears.
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I have played small characters liking them. It mostly depends on the race and what I'm planning to play. That being said the math against a melee specialist for small is stacked against them. Does that mean they suck? No it means being creative. For instance the spell Lead Blades increases the weapons damage by one size. So a small longsword now becomes a medium one as far as damage. The spell Enlarge Person makes a small become a medium. Use both you are now doing damage as a large.
That's a pretty bad comparison though, because a medium sized character could just do the same and do damage as a huge creature. Really to make the most of small sized characters you usually need to play to their strengths, like riding medium mounts, or using dex to damage, instead of trying to make up for their weaknesses. A medium sized character will always be a better choice if you build the character like they are a medium character, but used a small sized race instead.
There's also a bit of an issue of "wasted stats". If you're building a Halfling Fighter to be, basically, the same as a Human Fighter, you're probably:
1.) Wearing Full Plate
2.) Dumping CharismaSo you have a race that gives you +2 Dexterity (absolutely worthless to you with a whopping +1 Dex limit) and +2 Charisma (a stat you care nothing about).
I believe a Fighter's Armor Training takes care of that by 7th level.
And not all fighters are hit big things with sword. Hafling gives advantages for those going with the Archer archetype.
That's a pretty bad comparison though, because a medium sized character could just do the same and do damage as a huge creature. Really to make the most of small sized characters you usually need to play to their strengths, like riding medium mounts, or using dex to damage, instead of trying to make up for their weaknesses. A medium sized character will always be a better choice if you build the character like they are a medium character, but used a small sized race instead.
I don't think it matters if a medium character is going to be better (by the raw math) than the small character. Making the exact same optimization choices, that's typically going to be the case. Is the small character pulling his weight or at least doing a reasonable job is a more important question.
Drahliana, the archer archetype is horrible.
However, playing a base fighter as an archer as a halfling is going to work just fine. Of course, that's also not melee which was the subject at hand.
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I have nothing against small martials. One of the scariest characters that's ever graced one of my groups was my daughter's "feral halfling", a 6/6 barbarian/fighter with a small greatsword.
My only personal issue with playing most small characters (and dwarves) with a melee role is the 20' movement speed. It's not that I can't work with it or find ways around it, but it's the one limitation that actually bugs me during play. Everything else, including STR penalties, don't bother me in the slightest.
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My only personal issue with playing most small characters (and dwarves) with a melee role is the 20' movement speed. It's not that I can't work with it or find ways around it, but it's the one limitation that actually bugs me during play. Everything else, including STR penalties, don't bother me in the slightest.
Halflings can trade a couple skill boosts for a 30ft movement.
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My main problem is the term "Small Greatsword."
I'm glad that 4e and 5e did away with weapon sizes, to be honest.
I've run more than one goblin who was basically a Waring 3-speed in melee.
Dual-wielded dogslicers and solid Acrobatics... yeah.
My "Captain Killjoy"alias is actually partially inspired by one of the more successful melee characters I've ever run. Not so much the solo "stand there and pound things" beatstick, but he was an absolute monster in terms of field control, attacks of opportunity, and flanking.
With the advent of point buy stats there is an element of optimization that even ROLE players understand. When you chose away from optimal it invites scrutiny from a mechanics perspective. People talk some are polite some are not you seem to be encountering those who are not. If you enjoy the challenge a small martial represents you are acknowledging the disparity that people are picking on you for. Buck up, smile and play the crap out of your small character. If you play with decent players the talk will die down quickly. In short when you bring a 2.5 foot tall warrior expect short jokes. Play on.
The really funny thing is, if you work out their carrying capacity compared to their own weight, even with the racial penalties to Str, halflings and gnomes are pound for pound the strongest of the core races, often able to easily carry 3-5 times their own body weights before seriously becoming encumbered.
Lets see a half orc or human do that and not be at or near max encumbrance.
When was he last time your light load rating was three times your own body weight?
There's also a bit of an issue of "wasted stats". If you're building a Halfling Fighter to be, basically, the same as a Human Fighter, you're probably:
1.) Wearing Full Plate
2.) Dumping CharismaSo you have a race that gives you +2 Dexterity (absolutely worthless to you with a whopping +1 Dex limit) and +2 Charisma (a stat you care nothing about).
But that dex bonus comes in handy with the lighter armors you wear until your fighter armor training kicks in and when you can afford to buy mithril full plate. Then your moving at max speed with a higher dex than your average human warrior while still in full plate and with the small size AC bonus. You probably come out ahead in AC.
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Swashbucklers and paladins are superb martial classes for halflings and gnomes. Feral gnasher goblin barbarians are terrifying.
As to why people are jerks? Welcome to the human condition. Different people play for different reasons and cognitive dissonance can kick in and make people incapable of understanding how anyone could play "wrong".
Personally, I couldn't accept an effective -4 Str penalty on top of a reduced damage die on a non-swashbuckler/paladin martial melee character.
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I never really liked the flavor of most small builds. A small knight or paladin kinda strikes me as a joke character, which would be entertaining for a few sessions, but ultimately just get annoying.
Some builds like a Feral Gnasher or Goblin wolfrider sound interesting though.
Mounted cavalier or ranger work better on small size ...
Swashbuckler or daring champion is perfect.
Dawnflower dervish bard halfling or a battle herald. Are amazing
This. Dex builds work better due to getting bonusses from being small, mounted works better due to being able to use their mounts everywhere.
The really funny thing is, if you work out their carrying capacity compared to their own weight, even with the racial penalties to Str, halflings and gnomes are pound for pound the strongest of the core races, often able to easily carry 3-5 times their own body weights before seriously becoming encumbered.
Lets see a half orc or human do that and not be at or near max encumbrance.
When was he last time your light load rating was three times your own body weight?
Too bad the Ant beats them all. We going to say that Ant PCs are the most optimized martial now? Because they're a size so small, it's undescribable on the size chart, and they can carry things that are many times more their body weight, so clearly, they're the best. (By the way, inb4 Ant Man Vigilante is the best martial in the Marvel universe.)
Except, when you factor in how much that is objectively. An ant carrying ~0.5 pounds (which is generous, by the way) is a joke compared to creatures our size and strength; in fact, it's nearly weightless. Just because it's relative to the creature doesn't mean that it is the best option to take.
As another factor in here, I'm not opposed to small creatures being martials.
What I'm opposed to, is small creatures being strength martials.
Blunderin defence. Feat.
Order of the Dragon cavalier with bodyguard.
A mount with bodyguard are the best defenders in the game .
Risky striker. Can even the power str in high levels
If AC is your goal, a halfling is admittedly the best core race. Just not one that is a cavalier. I favor the monk/druid types for all your AC related needs.