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Actually, Halflings make amazing melee combatants.
Shenanigans everywhere.
+1 to AC and +1 to hit, permanent.
Slayer? Add 1/4 to your AC (!?)
Two weapon fighting? Use both Piranha Strike and Risky Striker. That's a lot of damage, you know.
Fighting Defensively? Choose the right traits and a couple feats, your AC is now untouchable, and your to-hit is not as bad as other races trying to do the same.
I'm actually considering rolling a TWF Halfling Slayer ASAP.
all i know is that I still can;t make a melee kobold and not feel like i'm stabbing myself repeatedly in the leg. I know, i know, dex to damage, but what if I WANT to wear armor.
all i know is that I still can;t make a melee kobold and not feel like i'm stabbing myself repeatedly in the leg. I know, i know, dex to damage, but what if I WANT to wear armor.
Wear armor.
Your AC will be the same anyway for most of your career. Dex-based builds don't actually have higher AC compared to optimized armored guys so, while counter-intuitive, while it "looks" like a waste, armor on a dex-based build is okay, numbers stay the same.
What you are actually losing:
-Touch AC is lower
-You have to accept penalties to skills (but since you're dex-based, you'll still perform better than a str-based build at most of them)
all i know is that I still can;t make a melee kobold and not feel like i'm stabbing myself repeatedly in the leg. I know, i know, dex to damage, but what if I WANT to wear armor.Wear armor.
Your AC will be the same anyway for most of your career. Dex-based builds don't actually have higher AC compared to optimized armored guys so, while counter-intuitive, while it "looks" like a waste, armor on a dex-based build is okay, numbers stay the same.
What you are actually losing:
-Touch AC is lower
-You have to accept penalties to skills (but since you're dex-based, you'll still perform better than a str-based build at most of them)
i don't think you understand what -4 str does to equipload.
with base 6 strength it drops light load to 15, medium to 30 and max to 45. fullplate, weighs 25 pounds on a small character. You seriously can't carry stuff without investing points into strength.
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2d6 is better than 1d10 in probabilities as well, not just damage range or average.
Chance of roll 2 or worse:
1d10 - 20%
2d6 - ~2.8%Chance of rolling 10 or higher:
1d10 - 10%
2d6 - ~17%
Absolutely. A Nodachi is still a better weapon because it has an 18-20 crit range, though.
Risky striker only works on large+ size categories? Based on the games I've played more than 50% of enemies are medium or smaller.
That's what Reduce Person is for! ;)
But yeah, it's an issue. Like I said: Not actually an optimal choice.
I'm actually considering rolling a TWF Halfling Slayer ASAP.
Or Unchained Rogue 4/ Weapon Master Fighter X. Easy dex-based TWF, loads of feats, fast Weapon Training and Advanced Weapon Training, Rogue Talent access, 3d6 Sneak Attack with Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and Debilitating Strike.
all i know is that I still can;t make a melee kobold and not feel like i'm stabbing myself repeatedly in the leg. I know, i know, dex to damage, but what if I WANT to wear armor.Wear armor.
Your AC will be the same anyway for most of your career. Dex-based builds don't actually have higher AC compared to optimized armored guys so, while counter-intuitive, while it "looks" like a waste, armor on a dex-based build is okay, numbers stay the same.
What you are actually losing:
-Touch AC is lower
-You have to accept penalties to skills (but since you're dex-based, you'll still perform better than a str-based build at most of them)i don't think you understand what -4 str does to equipload.
with base 6 strength it drops light load to 15, medium to 30 and max to 45. fullplate, weighs 25 pounds on a small character. You seriously can't carry stuff without investing points into strength.
..why would you dump Strength on anyone in melee? Even with Dex-to-damage joys?
OK, here's me just fiddling with numbers for a bog-standard 20-point PFS-legal halfling who wants to wreck stuff.
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 9
(I hate Int dumps.)
Gear: Greatsword (1d10+4 damage, 19-20/x2)
Halfling Sling Staff (1d6+3, x3 crit, might as well)
Scale Armour
30gp of other junk as needed.
Feats:
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (greatsword)
HP 12
Favoured Class bonus: HP to start.
Skills: Climb, Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Not going into ways to improve ... but would this minitank be considered able to survive past 1st level?
(Sources used: CRB, nothing else.)
survive easily
but 1d10+4 has less chances of oneshotting an enemy than 2d6+6
1d10+7 less chance than 2d6+9
so is the less damage worth it? up to you.
One of my players is playing a Halfling Swashbuckler, he's very happy with him. I dunno why people don't want to play small characters, there are so many options that switch out Dex for Str anyway.
That is a resource they could use for something else. If they stay with a medium character it never comes up.
Actually, Halflings make amazing melee combatants.
Shenanigans everywhere.
+1 to AC and +1 to hit, permanent.
Slayer? Add 1/4 to your AC (!?)
Two weapon fighting? Use both Piranha Strike and Risky Striker. That's a lot of damage, you know.
Fighting Defensively? Choose the right traits and a couple feats, your AC is now untouchable, and your to-hit is not as bad as other races trying to do the same.
I'm actually considering rolling a TWF Halfling Slayer ASAP.
That makes them potentially good slayers, but that does not make them good at melee combat across the board. Other classes might not give them much incentive to go melee.
A small character loses a whopping 1 point of average damage on most weapons while gaining a point of attack, which is generally more valuable in the long term anyhow. Assuming that they don't do something like try to be strength-based with a strength penalty race, I don't see the handicap.
Lunge?
Sure, but do you need a threatened area to be "an effective melee combatant under any circumstances whatsoever"?
Theres also just a Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair or Long Arm.
Sure, but do you need a threatened area to be "an effective melee combatant under any circumstances whatsoever"?Well, there's also the bit about having to move into their square and eat an AoO to attack.
See previous comment re: Lunge.
A ridiculously miniscule creature with Fencing Grace and just Lunge can actively chew up targets quite well indeed. I don't particularly like that reality, but...
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For me, it's not a game mechanics thing at all, but the simple reality that a bipedal humanoid that weights 35lbs is no physical threat whatsoever.
And no, "it's magic!" or "it a world with dragons..." don't help. Unless that halfling is from krypton, he's gonna get ROFL-Stomped.
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Unless that halfling is from krypton, he's gonna get ROFL-Stomped.
After all these years people still think D&D/Pathfinder characters are supposed to be even remotely normal people.
Ever noticed how falling damage has a cap, that is on average way lower than a mid to high level martial character HP pool? It's intended. At some point, you're not going to die for doing the redbull jump with no parachute.
What about a giant swinging a tree? Imagine the same tree falling on your head. Add the strength of a giant.
Characters withstand that stuff every day after breakfast.
This is also intended.
Did you ever realize that a mid level "martial artist monk" can spend the whole day punching walls and digging a tunnel with bare hands at a very fast pace - much faster than a professional miner using a pick- and never get tired?
If being superhuman makes an halfling kryptonian... well...
then in Pathfinder Lore a lot of halflings are actually aliens, you just didn't notice it.
This is heroic fantasy for a reason. The whole system is designed to promote over the top action.
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Wildshaping druids get screwed even worse than other martials. They're down 4 strength but aren't getting the size bonuses to attack and AC as partial compensation because they're turning into the same size animals, plants, or elementals. And going dex is a terrible option because from level 6 onwards strength forms have either better numbers or more reach than dex forms.
Uh...that little bit wasn't in regards to small characters at all, it was in regards to someone saying (and I quote) 'but that's mostly because going melee is a horrible idea.'
I was responding to the general statement, not anything regarding Small characters specifically.
Tiny creatures have a natural reach of 0' unless their bestiary entry says otherwise (eg. the tail of the psuedodragon). Weapon reaches are multiplied by natural reach. A giant or enlarged human with 10' reach wielding a 10' reach longspear gets a reach of 20' not 15' and a brownie or reduced halfling with 0' reach gets a longspear reach of 0' not 5'. Not having reach brings with it serious drawbacks.
Sure, but there are a variety of ways around that. Also...that was more than a bit tongue-in-cheek.
Not having reach or being able to flank is a severe liability for a melee character.
Sure is. Hence why that statement was tongue-in-cheek. That said, I think you're pretty seriously exaggerating how big a downside it is.
Multiplying your weapon reach by your natural reach of 0' means that there's no way for a tiny creature that doesn't have a special reach natural attack can get reach.
I can not believe that a humanoid reduced to tiny can be an effective melee combatant under any circumstances whatsoever. 0' reach is too great a weakness.
Oh, there are lots of other ways to be dangerous even sans reach. They're a bit secondary, because not having it is a disadvantage...but it's not an insurmountable one by any means.
Same should apply to medium creature fighting a giant, right? No threat at all.
Yup. A medium creature fighting a giant in melee would be pretty much f#@#%d.
Take a look at this (which is actually much less of a size advantage).
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Enlarge Person (which if you are going for big weapons should be around, even if you use potions) . . . 1d10 falls even more short versus 2d8 AND 10' reach.
Sure, but then we're back to the Halfling having way more AC. And presumably a buff of their own of some sort (what would vary depending on build).
Not necessarily, it really depends on how the creature is put together as just scaling up size (linear factor) vs volume (cubic factor) also has a huge impact on how well you do damage or how well you hit.
MDC
It's actually square/cube, but the point stands: Scale a person up enough and he can't stand or breathe, let alone fight. My original post made the same point, but I decided it was a bit of a moot point.
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I'm rolling a halfling avenger vigilante for Hell's Rebels, so we'll see how that goes.
Hail TOZ!
I rolled a Halfing Gravewalker Witch, but the first base concept is the "Aid Another" Helpful Halfling with Cautious Fighter and the Luck traits, armed with a Long Spear.
Aiding another with +4 to AC or +4 to hit, taking the penalty to fight defensively but only trying to hit a 10 DC, and with a natural DEX bonus of +3, with Mage Armor gives me a first level AC of 22 while fighting defensively.
Should be interesting.
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I'm rolling a halfling avenger vigilante for Hell's Rebels, so we'll see how that goes.Hail TOZ!
o.O
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. A long time.
We actually have a witch joining the party as well. I thankfully don't have to be the entire front line, as we're getting a swashbuckler as well. I'm going to make use of Lethal Grace with daggers and the halfling sling staff, which is actually kind of ludicrous thanks to 80ft range and getting the bonus damage as well. Not sure what else I'm going to be getting, either TWF to help with the melee piece or Ammo Drop to have more ranged capability.
Plenty of meidum characters goes dex to damage, so it does comes up.One of my players is playing a Halfling Swashbuckler, he's very happy with him. I dunno why people don't want to play small characters, there are so many options that switch out Dex for Str anyway.That is a resource they could use for something else. If they stay with a medium character it never comes up.
My point was that they don't have to do so. You can be medium and just go with strength, and not spend resources on dex to damage.
A small character loses a whopping 1 point of average damage on most weapons while gaining a point of attack, which is generally more valuable in the long term anyhow. Assuming that they don't do something like try to be strength-based with a strength penalty race, I don't see the handicap.
They lose on base weapon damage, and the strength bonus, which means they have to replace it by using more points at character creation or just accept the lower score. They can replace it with magic items, but they are still weaker than they would have been with a medium sized character. I don't think small creatures are so much worse off that they cant be useful, but it is noticable.
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They lose on base weapon damage, and the strength bonus, which means they have to replace it by using more points at character creation or just accept the lower score. They can replace it with magic items, but they are still weaker than they would have been with a medium sized character. I don't think small creatures are so much worse off that they cant be useful, but it is noticable.
This is more of a -2 Str issue than a 'Small Size' issue. Orang Pendak are a Small race with +2 Str, and make fine Barbarians and the like, while an Undine has real trouble making a Str build despite being medium.
Just for the record.
Now, this doesn't change the main point of the thread, mind you, given that it was started explicitly about people objecting to Halfling or Gnome Str-based characters (who do both have Str penalties), but it still seems worth noting.
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A small character loses a whopping 1 point of average damage on most weapons while gaining a point of attack, which is generally more valuable in the long term anyhow. Assuming that they don't do something like try to be strength-based with a strength penalty race, I don't see the handicap.They lose on base weapon damage, and the strength bonus, which means they have to replace it by using more points at character creation or just accept the lower score. They can replace it with magic items, but they are still weaker than they would have been with a medium sized character. I don't think small creatures are so much worse off that they cant be useful, but it is noticable.
...Assuming that they don't do something like try to be strength-based with a strength penalty race, I don't see the handicap.
Whether or not it's "OK" to go strength-based Halfling or Gnome ultimately depends on the 'culture' of the table. It ends up being the same kind of thing that drives a player to never create a Dwarf Fighter or Barbarian because they just can't get over not getting a strength bonus.
What book is this Orang Pendak in?
At which point you might as well stop playing Pathfinder at all. It's not a game about realism. Even martials are heroic enough they can do unrealistic things. Whether that's small characters taking on medium sized ones or medium ones fighting giants.Same should apply to medium creature fighting a giant, right? No threat at all.Yup. A medium creature fighting a giant in melee would be pretty much f#@#%d.
Take a look at this (which is actually much less of a size advantage).
Medium vs giants?: Valeros Vs Giants I think Valeros can win! :P
After having played a half dozen or so halfling martial characters, I can certainly vouch for the efficacy of their abilities. The +1 attack and AC make a big difference, especially when stacked with other halfling only abilities.
There are plenty of options out there that help with their damage output (not that you need them since your DPR will actually be higher than your big brothers due to your higher accuracy). However, if you do feel you need to do more damage anyways, things like the fighter's Focused Weapon advanced weapon training means you could wield a small dagger and eventually do more base damage than even a greatsword!
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At which point you might as well stop playing Pathfinder at all. It's not a game about realism. Even martials are heroic enough they can do unrealistic things. Whether that's small characters taking on medium sized ones or medium ones fighting giants.
Someone posed the question "why all the small race hate?"
I answered by pointing out that it not hate, necessarily, but people having trouble suspending their disbelief with respect to something with which they have direct personal experience (ever wrestle with your six-year-old nephew?). On the other hand, not many people have direct personal experience wrestling with a giant or a dragon, and therefore probably don't have that same trouble with suspension of disbelief.
Your response to that is to say that Pathfinder is a fantasy game, and that if you can't suspend your disbelief in this particular case, then you shouldn't play at all?
Sorry, but that's bunk. Exclusionary bunk, to boot. >:(
The more weird the abstractions get, the more creative you gotta get with what you come up with.
Your response to that is to say that Pathfinder is a fantasy game, and that if you can't suspend your disbelief in this particular case, then you shouldn't play at all?
Pathfinder is not simply a fantasy game. Pathfinder is its own genre of fantasy.
IF you do not like the way Pathfinder consciously chooses to portray narrative lore through game mechanics
THEN you don't like the identity of the product
If that's a good reason to play something else, it's up to you