Paladins: Freedom of Religion?


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 133 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

The argument that just because something doesn't say I can't do something means I can do something is awful.

The rules also don't say the GM cant replace your dice with d4's, or make you play blind folded.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sundakan wrote:

You have yet to explain why.

As a Paladin, YOU stand for Good.

You happen to worship a deity who is ambivalent, but promotes many things you find good (healthy childbirth, destruction of undead, proper burials).

Why is worship a bad thing?

You don't receive power from Pharasma, you receive power from Good, the universal concept that transcends deities. You don't need to fall lockstep with her entire mindset, just the parts you like.

That's why Paladin Hellknights can get on just fine revering the sheer orderliness of Hell, but not the Evil parts.

When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.

"I want to do good but my Goddess could really f#+@ing care less since I'm not over there smiting undead" isn't a really good vote of confidence.

I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...

*eye twitch*

*eye twitch*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That's what Inquisitors and Warpriests are for. :-)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
captain yesterday wrote:
That's what Inquisitors and Warpriests are for. :-)

I am *fully* behind such a character *calling* them self a paladin, and even having the conviction of belief that they are.

Liberty's Edge

Rysky wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Silus wrote:
(And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite)
Extra Smite?
Ah, good catch! There is no Extra Smite feat.

Oh right, that was a 3.5 thing.

Shows how long it's been since I've played a Paladin...


Just as a btw, there is nothing in the actual rules for a paladin that explicitly says they have to worship a diety at all.

You could simply choose to not worship anyone and have one of the various gods bestow powers upon you, "Because".

There is one refences to deities within the PRD for paladin. There are 2 mentions of "god". All of these are in descriptions of abilities and not within actual mechanics.

PRD SAYS wrote:
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.

Does that mean they have to serve them knowingly? Or simply that their actions happen to serve the deity. How binding is that text

"God" Is mentioned in the level 20 capstone and the divine bond class feature. Neither explicitly require whorship


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.

Can you give me a quote on that? Because I've never seen it.

Rysky wrote:
I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?

From her write-up in Carrion Crown:

Quote:

Portfolio: Fate, Death, Prophecy, Rebirth

"Pharasma’s followers are midwives, morticians, so-called “white necromancers,” expectant mothers, and (though much less so since Aroden’s death) Harrowers, palmists, oneiromancers, cloud-readers, and others who use non-magical forms of divination."

"In art, Pharasma is depicted as the midwife, the mad prophet, or the reaper of the dead, depending upon her role. Her visage usually has gray skin and white eyes. As the midwife, she is efficient and severe, hair pulled back and arms bare from hands to the elbows. As the prophet, she is wild-eyed and tanglehaired, her words echoing like thunder. As the reaper, she is tall and gaunt, with a flowing, black-hooded gown and an hourglass with fast-flowing red sand—moving with deliberate care rather than aggressiveness. Pregnant women often carry small tokens of her midwife likeness on long necklaces to protect the unborn and grant them good lives. "

"Pharasma is in favor of marriage, as it leads to births, but is not against having children out of wedlock, or childless couples adopting, or children being raised in orphanages. Church weddings may be simple or ornate, depending on the social status and wealth of the participants. Though she is the goddess of birth, she does not oppose contraception, and her temples have been known to provide this assistance to women with a history of stillbirths and deformities. However, she believes killing a child in the womb is an abomination, for it sends the infant soul to the afterlife before it has a chance to fulfill its destiny; thus, the goddess’s midwives refuse to aid in such matters, even if bearing the child would be a great risk to the mother. Some church midwives, called casarmetzes, are so skilled in a combination of medicine, magic, and surgery that in dire circumstances they can cut a living child from its mother’s womb and save both. "

And remember, one of her Domains is Healing as well.

She also is more caring than you seem to believe, since she (though rarely) will sometimes give people who die under "mysterious conditions" the chance to come back as a spirit briefly and say last goodbyes to their family, or give clues to who murdered them and why.

She's a very Good leaning Neutral in my eyes.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...

Oh God. 'Lil Gideon as a Paladin of Abadar.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

Yup, that's always been my take on her. Last to pick a side but when she has to she'd on the good team.


Rysky wrote:
I know midwives and expectant mothers pray to Her for healthy childbirths but is that actually in her portfolio?

Births and fate, definitely.

In the case of Pharasma, a paladin may have a somewhat harder time being a priest, but s/he can be a lay worshipper or even a warrior for the faith in certain situations. Yes, s/he does not agree with parts of the dogma, but I´m pretty sure a NG, CN and NE priests of Pharasma have their disagreements too. Sure, you could say that Pharasma´s stress on fate means a paladin is not allowed to help the suffering because it was fate, but how is that any more valid for a LG paladin than for a NG cleric? Pharasma is mostly focused on a few key issues, other than that as I understand it clerics have a fair amount of choice as far as She is concerned (the church organization itself is another story).

If paladins are not required to serve a god for their powers, I see no trouble with a paladin who venerates deities without being completely devoted to the dogma, i.e. praying to Pharasma often and participating in church rites. In a pantheistic setting, imo **not** paying at least some respect to several gods would be an exception, not the norm. Why wouldn´t you, for example, pray to Erastil for a good harvest, to Shelyn for love in your marriage, to Pharasma to help you with childbirth, to Gorum in war and, hell, to Cayden when stoppering the wine barrel? Acknowledging these powerful beings and propitiating them to gain their favor should be a good idea at any rate.

To be honest, a lot of the Pharasmin dogma makes perfect sense for a LN deity. She is an impartial judge of the dead and is extremely serious about enforcing the laws of the universe that she is tied to. I have a hard time imagining a CN pharasmin priest.


Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.

"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."

Bah.


DarkPhoenixx wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Raw with Rovagug, absolutely NO. RAW with Asmodeus also absolutely no, because the only text you'll find to back that idea up has been repeatedly outed as a publication mistake.
I say as it is written. Unless they made errata and i missed it, rules say you can worship whoever you want. Other question is, if paladin instantly falls by worshipping evil deity...

The rules themselves prohibit it, and yes, the Devs have REPEATEDLY come onto the boards and outed it.

And yes, if a Paladin intentionally, and deliberately decides to worship an evil diety on my table, he falls on the spot.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...

No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@Sundaken, for the first thing, um, the Paladin Codes specific to each Deity? It'd be kinda odd for Paladins to not gain any influence from their Deities, even odder from the Deities viewpoint.

As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.


Sundakan wrote:

Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.

"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."

Bah.

Both parts of that statement seem to have been retconned. She did participate in the effort to have him caged, but she was not nearly strong enough to do it by herself, and apparantly a whole bunch of gods and demi-gods did not walk away once the dust settled.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Davor wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.

As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.


Rysky wrote:
As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.

Hey, nothing prevents an awesome cowgirl cosplayer from being into a gaudy dressing style, crossbows and sound and fair business practices. Abadarian paladins are quite atypical as far as paladins go, but I can see it happen now and then.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Rysky wrote:
As much as I would love for that to be true, Abadarites being Abadarities she was probably an awesome cosplayer they hired for good publicity.
Hey, nothing prevents an awesome cowgirl cosplayer from being into a gaudy dressing style, crossbows and sound and fair business practices. Abadarian paladins are quite atypical as far as paladins go, but I can see it happen now and then.

Not a Paladin of Abadar then XD

Or worse, she is...


Rysky wrote:
@Sundaken, for the first thing, um, the Paladin Codes specific to each Deity? It'd be kinda odd for Paladins to not gain any influence from their Deities, even odder from the Deities viewpoint.

How so?

Rysky wrote:
As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.

Well for one, your personal preferences don't really matter, that's the lore, and it's all we really have to go on.

For two, it doesn't say it's Evil. It says Pharasma, Neutral (not Good...kinda the crux of this whole discussion y'know) goddess of Birth and Death, sees abortion as an abomination.


Sundakan wrote:

Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.

"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."

Bah.

He was wrong about that, it turned out. Somebody pointed out some published lore that she was one of the first to join the fight against Rovy, and he deferred to the published material.


QuidEst wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.

"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."

Bah.

He was wrong about that, it turned out. Somebody pointed out some published lore that she was one of the first to join the fight against Rovy, and he deferred to the published material.

Yay!


Sundakan wrote:

Of course James Jacobs kinda ruined her for me on the boards recently but I can ignore that.

"Yeah she's strong enough to suplex Rovagug single handed but she was like 'Nah, I'll pass'."

Bah.

Yeah if you talk to James Jacobs about Pharasma you get a decidedly different picture of the deity than the one people here are trying to paint.

Pharasma is James creation. He has basically said she cares f!~%all for pretty much everything that isn't specifically in her wheelhouse.

She was going to ignore Rovagug and let him destroy Golarion because it wasn't technically her concern. People were going to die and she was going to judge them, that was her job. It was not her job to interfere with Rovagug. It also wasn't her job to stop the other deities who decided they were going to team up and stop them.

Pharasma is definitely not a good deity. She cares about the very small number of things related to her portfolio, and is otherwise waiting for the end of existence to happen.

Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sundakan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
As for her Carrion Crown writeup I don't go by that, since that writeup also calls out Abortion as Evil. No thanks.

Well for one, your personal preferences don't really matter, that's the lore, and it's all we really have to go on.

For two, it doesn't say it's Evil. It says Pharasma, Neutral (not Good...kinda the crux of this whole discussion y'know) goddess of Birth and Death, sees abortion as an abomination.

That had less to do with evil and more to do with what Pharasma is a deity of - birth and fate. An intentional abortion means that you, mortal humanoid № 18771280871, overrule what she as the deity in charge of births and by association pregnancy decided is going to happen. You disregarded her position and dogma, thus insulting her. I would have gone for "anathema" rather than "abomination," to be honest, but at any rate, it isn't about abortions being objectively evil, it is about the goddess of pregnancy and birth being pissed by mortals messing around with pregnancies and births. You can also argue that you are messing around with the fate of the unborn, which is also her portfolio. Even keeping contemporary politics and morality out of it, it makes perfect sense that she would be against it.

Ironically, I think a big part of why she is against undead might come from a similar mindset. She is the being in charge of death, and deciding that, you know, **** the system, you are going to do your own thing and stay around won't sit well with her. She allows resurrection under some limits, but undeath is an affront to what she represents.

Edit: I can agree with Pharasma not being all that good, but I see her as quite LN in how she operates. Her Osiriani counterpart, Anubis, is LN without having a markedly more lawful bent (as far as I am aware).

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
When you worship a deity as a Paladin you do fall lockstep with their mindset to a certain extent, because when you do worship a deity as a Paladin you do get their powers from them.

Common misconception. Clerics normally get their powers from their deities, paladins do not.

Clerics, druids, experienced paladins and rangers, inquisitors, oracles, the adept NPC class, the hunter hybrid class, the shaman hybrid class, and the warpriest hybrid class cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.

(Unofficial confirmation from James Jacobs here and here.)

The deity-specific paladin codes make sense when you consider the fact that paladins, being Lawful Good, like to join organizations with similar goals, such as religions centered around lawful and/or good deities. A paladin associated with these organizations will naturally take on their specific interests, and express these commitments as a formal code. Breaking a deity-specific code could still cause a fall even if the deity does not empower the paladin, because it would violate the general requirements that a paladin "respect legitimate authority" (ie the deity you've agreed to serve) and "act with honour" (eg no oath-breaking). Really it's the same thing as swearing fealty to a ruler, except you can have greater confidence that your deity will stick to consistent moral principles.

It's ultimately up to your GM whether he/she wants to follow the one-step rule with paladins. I personally would be OK with a paladin following certain TN deities such as Pharasma, in connection with a NG branch of the church. I would be less comfortable with a Paladin taking options that bound them particularly strongly to the TN deity and their goals, such as Deific Obedience or the Evangelist prestige class.


Davor wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...
No way. We already know that Paladins of Abadar are all sexy, crossbow-wielding cowgirls.

And they all get the blues.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Paladin can "revere" one or more particular deities without actually being a core follower. Even in the real world, ancient polytheistic religions were typically a pantheon. When you set sail, you pray the deity of the seas, but when your wife is going to give birth, you pray to the deity of childbirth. Most people didn't pick a single deity to whom they devoted their entire spirituality. Even an ordained priest of a particular deity still revered and respected the others in the pantheon; it's just that their day job involved devotion and service to one in particular. That's basically what Clerics and Inquisitors are; they exclusively service (and gain divine power from) a singular deity. All their spiritual mojo (which normal people can't really do) comes from that one deity. But they would still pray to other members of the pantheon for things outside the portfolio of their deity. The Paladin, on the other hand, doesn't' get his mojo directly from a deity; but he still reveres the pantheon as any one else would. He may join the service and leverage his divine powers (from a different source) for the benefit of that deity's cause and the deity, in turn, may reinforce their powers (granting spells at lower levels, feats, etc.) but that's another matter entirely. However, evil religious organizations are generally out-of-bounds for a Paladin. Realistically speaking, even a LN deity, otherwise within the "one step alignment" rule, might be technically out of bounds based on the Paladin code. If it were a LN deity of, say, executions who insisted that legal conviction takes priority over known innocence, and the Paladin would be responsible to carry out an execution upon someone he knows to be innocent, that is a fundamental incompatibility between the Paladin code and the religious group and the Paladin would be required to pick one and only one to follow; either lose his paladin mojo or abandon the religion.


Kazaan wrote:
The thing to keep in mind is that the Paladin can "revere" one or more particular deities without actually being a core follower.

This is basically what you'd find with a Hellknight paladin of the Order of the Godclaw - the Godclaw pantheon is collectively LN, so it would be easy enough for a Godclaw paladin to omit Asmodeus from their reverence and pay their respects to a collective of LG and LN deities.


I didn't realize everyone hated Abadar that much.


swoosh wrote:
I didn't realize everyone hated Abadar that much.

Yeah, I'm not getting the references or the hate at all; he's the god of judges and law, after all.


Gulthor wrote:
swoosh wrote:
I didn't realize everyone hated Abadar that much.
Yeah, I'm not getting the references or the hate at all; he's the god of judges and law, after all.

Yes?


Claxon wrote:


Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.

There's a 3.5 era AP article that suggests Pharasma helped against Rovagug, but it also said Nethys did, and he under current lore didn't exist yet. There may have been a couple of others like that. I take all of that stuff as retconned when the history of the gods and Golarion got more settled.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.


Rysky wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Silus wrote:
(And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite)
Extra Smite?
Ah, good catch! There is no Extra Smite feat.

If you choose oath of vengeance, extra lay on hands functions as extra smite.


Milo v3 wrote:
I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.

Except that the god is real. When you ask for Ugothoa's blessing there IS someone else on the other end of the line and they MIGHT actually pick up the phone and answer. When you are a paladin you do not allow yourself to be imbued with the forces of darkness. EVER.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Milo v3 wrote:
I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.

The question is how worship works. A paladin who worships Iomedae (goddess of being a goodly knight in shining armour) has an easier time staying in touch with the Force of Law and Good. Abadar? Well, Law is a good thing, rgiht? Sarenrae? Good is a good thing, right?

Deviate too far from that LG core and it's hard to really justify. Asmodeus and Gorum are not exactly the gods of altruism. You can still honour them, and acknowledge their dvinity ... but when you worship Asmodeus, you're saying that his vision of the cosmos is the right one. If you worship Gorum, you're more interested in fighting than much of anything else.


Qaianna wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
I don't see why worshiping a god would have any impact on your alignment on it's own. If you participated in a religious ceremony that included an aligned action, that would affect your alignment, but simply paying homage to a god you agree with or simply worshiping the god your family worshiped wouldn't necessarily have any affect on your paladin-ness.

The question is how worship works. A paladin who worships Iomedae (goddess of being a goodly knight in shining armour) has an easier time staying in touch with the Force of Law and Good. Abadar? Well, Law is a good thing, rgiht? Sarenrae? Good is a good thing, right?

Deviate too far from that LG core and it's hard to really justify. Asmodeus and Gorum are not exactly the gods of altruism. You can still honour them, and acknowledge their dvinity ... but when you worship Asmodeus, you're saying that his vision of the cosmos is the right one. If you worship Gorum, you're more interested in fighting than much of anything else.

Well, again, going back to the Hellknights, they do believe Asmodeus's vision of the cosmos is the right one... just so long as it's run and staffed by "people" and not "devils". And there are Paladins in the Hellknights; an organization dedicated to the order and structure of Hell as a proactive social model for the material plane. The Paladins in this case believe that Good will be served by having a strict social hierarchy. Sure, it's a bit Orwellian, but that's aside from the point.

Basically, each "step" away from your own alignment means that deity is "less" attuned to you, but that doesn't make it a boolean function. The only deities that should be completely denied on principal alone would be CE and it's a gradation from one corner of the alignment chart to the other. I'm sure that LN followers of a LG deity may chafe a bit at the Good expectations that are quite a bit more than they'd normally lean on their own. So there would even be a little contention if you're within that one allowable alignment step. So the presence of alignment contention isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. So I can perfectly well see a LG Paladin who includes Pharasma in his pantheon of worship or, even, were a dedicated member of her church, basically encompassing the best of a LN and a NG follower simultaneously. He doesn't need to strongly resonate with her particular alignment like a Cleric or Inquisitor does because he isn't getting his mojo directly from her (unless he's a Sacred Servant, in which case this would not work). And, for Gorum, yeah, he's interested in fighting and not much else, but for a Paladin focused on fighting off enemies (eg. fiends, undead, etc.), that can be a good chassis to build off from; he can temper that fighting spirit with the trademark Paladin attitude. Granted, this would likely be the furthest you could stretch the connection, but a Paladin wouldn't otherwise have a problem working with a CN player, so paying due reverence to a CN deity shouldn't be much problem either. But another thing to keep in mind is the lopsidedness of Good vs Evil. Good is cooperative and works well together. A LG Paladin works a lot better with a CG ally than he would with a LE ally. So I probably wouldn't extend the allowance to associate with CN religious organizations along the other path to associating with NE ones.

And, of course, the further you go, the more roleplay work there is to do to reconcile the disparate world-views. To break this all down:

NG: Easiest to relate to. Sometimes, rule-bending to ensure good is done is OK. It likely won't be the Paladin himself doing it, but it's nice to have friends willing to do so.
CG and LN: Next easiest to relate to. An honest-to-goodness Paladin would be hard-pressed to fault Robin Hood's technical breaking of the law in order to help the disenfranchised. Meanwhile, he also values how a strict, solid social structure is proactive towards ensuring that bad things don't happen in the first place; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
TN: Middle-ground in all ways. A Paladin in this kind of religion recognizes that he represents an extreme in a zero-sum game, but that he's also dedicated to playing that extreme to the best of his ability. He relates best to the NG and LN members, but still acknowledges that everyone has their own path in life, even if that path brings them into certain conflicts.
CN: Second hardest to relate to. CN, while opposed on the "lesser" axis for a Paladin, at least isn't completely opposed on the more important one. If it's a fairly simple and straight-forward order that isn't dedicated to evil (eg. Gorum, Sun Wukong).
NE: Hardest to relate to. Most of these are going to be beyond redemption, but some of them might need to be saved from themselves (particularly the TN and LE followers). NE is, predominantly, the alignment represented by nihilism so even a Paladin might harbor thoughts of, "It doesn't matter how much Good I do, eventually everything will end." But that must be reconciled with, "But in the meantime, I'll do the absolute best I can."
CE: Totally unrelatable. A Paladin simply can't get along with a CE organization in any way. It is diametrically opposed so just don't.


Kazaan wrote:
Well, again, going back to the Hellknights, they do believe Asmodeus's vision of the cosmos is the right one... just so long as it's run and staffed by "people" and not "devils".

Whoa whoa whoa - what? No, they pick and choose what to emulate from the military structure and tactics of one of the greatest military forces in the universe.

The only Hellknight Order with any explicit religious component is the Order of the Godclaw, and they worship the lawful pantheon which does include Asmodeus, but equally revered alongside Abadar, Torag, Irori, and Iomedae.

The Hellknights are undeniably fascist, but LN is not LE. You can certainly make an argument that many Hellknights are so zealous in their convictions that they leave themselves naively easy to corrupt to evil on the Good/Evil scale, but that's only because they are dedicated wholly to Law versus Chaos.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slithery D wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Edit: Seems some published lore contradicted James' statements....interesting. Still James vision of her is decidedly different from the way many people appear to picture Pharasma. And even if she did join the fight against Rovagug, so did Asmodeus.
There's a 3.5 era AP article that suggests Pharasma helped against Rovagug, but it also said Nethys did, and he under current lore didn't exist yet. There may have been a couple of others like that. I take all of that stuff as retconned when the history of the gods and Golarion got more settled.

They needed so much help against Rovagug, The Doctor pulled in gods from the future.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...


Rovagug, The Rough Beast wrote:
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...

I guess it's a good thing that prophecy is dead and there is no possible way that the future could already be written for you.

Isn't it?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Shush! Don't tell him, he still thinks he's getting a puppy.

Liberty's Edge

Rovagug, The Rough Beast wrote:
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...

So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?

Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.


Silus wrote:
Rovagug, The Rough Beast wrote:
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...

So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?

Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.

No. Golarion does not function on the gods need prayer badly principle.

Silver Crusade

Nope. Gods in Golarion don't rely on worshipers to exist.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mortals don't really get our music, I've discovered.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Silus wrote:
Rovagug, The Rough Beast wrote:
Good luck getting rid of me! Why you'd have to pull Golarion into some sort of pocket dimension and wipe out all recorded history of how it was done to shut me up. But, I mean *nervous chuckle* they'll never do THAT...

So I know it works in other settings, but if you killed off all the worshipers of a God, erased all record of them and all that jazz, would that kill said God?

Hell, a Wish spell or two could in theory (depending on the DM I suppose) starve out any God or Goddess if that's true.

... What kind of GM makes Wish powerful enough to kill at least thousands of people across at least continents, if not planets and/or planes anyhow?


I think we all know what the answer will be. It's best not to dwell on it. :-)

Liberty's Edge

You could theoretically worship a deity that isn't within one step of LG as a Paladin, but if you follow any of said deities teachings there is the possibility it may violate your Paladin Code, and you don't get the alternate Paladin codes which are available with some Deities like Erastil and Sarenrae.

If you worship a Neutral deity such as Pharasma, you could in theory be a Paladin... there just likely isn't a cohesive organization for Pharasman Paladins as there are for say Iomedae, though I'm certain there are some small organized groups of Inquisitors and a loose collection of Warpriests dotted amongst the clergy. But even so you'd be opposed to some of your deity's teachings, which doesn't forbid you from being a Paladin though it does forbid you from being an Evangelist. As well it is likely you'd be more devoted to traditional Paladin ideals rather than your religion if you worship something opposed to your character.

You also ABSOLUTELY cannot be an Evangelist AND a Paladin of a Deity that isn't within one step of LG. Since Evangelists HAVE to worship a single-deity, and the character HAS to be within one step of their deity.

Also, flavor aside there's little reason to choose Pharasma as a Paladin, they stand to gain nothing mechanical from the choice (the favored weapon is a dagger), you limit your Prestige options... It's just not a good choice mechanically.

Also given this is a home game, if I were GMing I'd personally allow worship as a Paladin of any deity aside from NE or CE; though CG, CN and LE would be very hard to justify as well (NN would be just fine for me)... you'd have to have a damn good RP reason for it. And even if I were limiting things to the core classes, I would make an exception in this case to allow the you to play an Inquisitor or Warpriest... since you want the Paladin style without the Lawful Good (which is something I'm totally in favor of). I'd also be open to working with the player to homebrew (or find an existing homebrew) a Paladin archetype for CG or LE alignments.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Except that the god is real. When you ask for Ugothoa's blessing there IS someone else on the other end of the line and they MIGHT actually pick up the phone and answer. When you are a paladin you do not allow yourself to be imbued with the forces of darkness. EVER.

So what? Not everyone has ranks in knowledge religion to recognize that the individual is evil, simply worshiping a god doesn't mean that your something like a disciple and simply worshiping a god doesn't give that god any power so in of itself it doesn't really affect anything.

Say a LG rogue and a paladin have very strong views on undead and afterlife judgement, why can't these two worship pharasma? What force stops them from giving pharasma a prayer now and again? It's not like the god even can imbue them with power outside of turning them into an oracle, since they don't meet the alignment restrictions of the god-tied divine classes, and being an oracle doesn't stop you from doing LG stuff at all and doesn't actually have a way to get you to become a servant of pharasma.

51 to 100 of 133 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Paladins: Freedom of Religion? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.