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So I'm jumping into a RotR game in the near future and I'm planning on playing a polearm wielding Paladin with Oath Against Savagry (For that sweet, sweet 15ft reach) and plan on going Evangelist somewhere down the line, assuming I can find a deity I like. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a deity I like that works.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG? For example, could my LG paladin worship, say, Urgathoa and it be...legit? If not, then I'm going to likely have to come up with another build or just settle on Shelyn and skip Evangelist.
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
Not in million years.
There is no hard and fast rule about who characters can ruleship, and outside of PFS and the Golarion setting you are not required to have a deity.
But I've always been of the opinion that it doesn't make sense for a character to worship a deity who is more than two steps away from them on the alignment chart.
Two steps away from LG is LE, NN, CG. Why would a character who is a prargon of good be interest in worshiping someone not good? And by the same token, a lawful individual finds chaos just as reprehensible as a good character finds evil to be reprehensible.
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I'm very curious as to how you would justify in character worshiping Urgathoa as a paladin. Put aside all mechanics and rules debates for a moment, and just try to explain from the point of view of a holy warrior living in Golarion why they chose to pray to, receive power from, and further the goals of the cosmos' first undead, goddess of physical excess, disease, and undeath? How would such a character rationalize their way into sitting down at a feast of human flesh with a bunch of ghouls of the same faith? How would such a character define as good the spreading of plague, with its inevitable destruction of thousands of innocents? And, finally, why would such a character seek out undeath in the form of lichdom, a path that is often fraught with the massacre of sentient beings, but is the ultimate goal of an Urgathoan?
So I'm jumping into a RotR game in the near future and I'm planning on playing a polearm wielding Paladin with Oath Against Savagry (For that sweet, sweet 15ft reach) and plan on going Evangelist somewhere down the line, assuming I can find a deity I like. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a deity I like that works.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG? For example, could my LG paladin worship, say, Urgathoa and it be...legit? If not, then I'm going to likely have to come up with another build or just settle on Shelyn and skip Evangelist.
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
How would you, a character that's supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Good, justify worshiping either an evil goddess of undeath, or the uncaring Goddess of the Dead?
Maybe WarPriest is more up your alley?
Oath Against Undead Paladin who is a devout Pharasmin?
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So I'm jumping into a RotR game in the near future and I'm planning on playing a polearm wielding Paladin with Oath Against Savagry (For that sweet, sweet 15ft reach) and plan on going Evangelist somewhere down the line, assuming I can find a deity I like. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a deity I like that works.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG? For example, could my LG paladin worship, say, Urgathoa and it be...legit? If not, then I'm going to likely have to come up with another build or just settle on Shelyn and skip Evangelist.
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
How would you, a character that's supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Good, justify worshiping either an evil goddess of undeath, or the uncaring Goddess of the Dead?
Maybe WarPriest is more up your alley?
I would go Warpriest but the guy running the game wants to keep the classes core, but has less issue with archetypes from non-core books. The party is good, so I'd not be able to run an Urgathoan Paladin even if I wanted to. My options are annoyingly limited so I'm working with what I have.
I could go Cleric but a Power Attack -> Smite Evil + Reach build is too tempting.
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So I'm jumping into a RotR game in the near future and I'm planning on playing a polearm wielding Paladin with Oath Against Savagry (For that sweet, sweet 15ft reach) and plan on going Evangelist somewhere down the line, assuming I can find a deity I like. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a deity I like that works.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG? For example, could my LG paladin worship, say, Urgathoa and it be...legit? If not, then I'm going to likely have to come up with another build or just settle on Shelyn and skip Evangelist.
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
Um, Glaive's have reach. You could totally play a Paladin/Evangelist of Sheyln.
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So I'm jumping into a RotR game in the near future and I'm planning on playing a polearm wielding Paladin with Oath Against Savagry (For that sweet, sweet 15ft reach) and plan on going Evangelist somewhere down the line, assuming I can find a deity I like. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a deity I like that works.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG? For example, could my LG paladin worship, say, Urgathoa and it be...legit? If not, then I'm going to likely have to come up with another build or just settle on Shelyn and skip Evangelist.
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
How would you, a character that's supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Good, justify worshiping either an evil goddess of undeath, or the uncaring Goddess of the Dead?
Maybe WarPriest is more up your alley?
I would go Warpriest but the guy running the game wants to keep the classes core, but has less issue with archetypes from non-core books. The party is good, so I'd not be able to run an Urgathoan Paladin even if I wanted to. My options are annoyingly limited so I'm working with what I have.
I could go Cleric but a Power Attack -> Smite Evil + Reach build is too tempting.
Granted by using your Holy Reach ability you're not gonna be doing much Smiting :3
Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.
While the specifics of my questions might change, the general idea is the same. How would someone dedicated to order and holy conduct, to comporting themselves according to tenets of righteousness and duty explain the choice to worship and receive power from a deity who does not, in their very nature, evidence at least some of those qualities?
In the specific case of Pharasma, as Drahliana Moonrunner points out above, she is uncaring. Her indifference might be a matter of some difficulty for someone who truly believed in actively promulgating goodness and order in the world. Not to mention that your character's co-religionists could be evil without penalty, which means that instead of supporting and advancing right and order, your warrior would be advancing (at best) benign indifference.
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Also, if all you mechanically want is reach, why not just wield a reach weapon? There's nothing that says that a paladin has to use the favored weapon of their deity.
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Oath Against Undead Paladin who is a devout Pharasmin?
Problem is is that that oath isn't really good for Rise of the Runelords. We're fighting giants later on so the Oath Against Savagery works a lot better, netting me 1 minute of +5 reach per use of Smite (And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite) for a 15ft reach with a polearm.
I mean if I had free reign on what I wanted to play (as in no restrictions) I'd be running a Pharasman Warpriest that uses daggers and Splintering Weapon with a whole mess of cheap stone daggers.
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Oath Against Undead Paladin who is a devout Pharasmin?Problem is is that that oath isn't really good for Rise of the Runelords. We're fighting giants later on so the Oath Against Savagery works a lot better, netting me 1 minute of +5 reach per use of Smite (And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite) for a 15ft reach with a polearm.
I mean if I had free reign on what I wanted to play (as in no restrictions) I'd be running a Pharasman Warpriest that uses daggers and Splintering Weapon with a whole mess of cheap stone daggers.
All Holy Reach does is give you the Lunge Feat for 1 min. By the time you start fighting Giants your BaB will be high enough to nab the feat itself, and you won't have to blow through your Smite Evils to use it anymore.
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Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.While the specifics of my questions might change, the general idea is the same. How would someone dedicated to order and holy conduct, to comporting themselves according to tenets of righteousness and duty explain the choice to worship and receive power from a deity who does not, in their very nature, evidence at least some of those qualities?
In the specific case of Pharasma, as Drahliana Moonrunner points out above, she is uncaring. Her indifference might be a matter of some difficulty for someone who truly believed in actively promulgating goodness and order in the world. Not to mention that your character's co-religionists could be evil without penalty, which means that instead of supporting and advancing right and order, your warrior would be advancing (at best) benign indifference.
Not to spark an alignment debate, but Lawful Good has a lot of different facets, from the "white knight" with the holy radiance and raw goodness oozing from every pore, to the violent dogmatic zealot that upholds goodness and the law to such an extreme degree that they might as well be evil. That said, a Pharasman Paladin I feel would be able to uphold their goddess's tenants while maintaining a Lawful Good alignment. It would take some explaining to the DM for sure but it's doable.
Also, if all you mechanically want is reach, why not just wield a reach weapon? There's nothing that says that a paladin has to use the favored weapon of their deity.
I kinda figured that was a thing O_o I usually play bards and Druids so it's never really been any sort of an issue.
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I think I read somewhere about some CG deity (might be Desna) having paladins, so precedent for this may exist.
I'm pretty sure that's not a thing, unless you can provide a source to back up your claim.
As far as I know, on Golarion only LG, LN, and NG deities have paladins.
A pharasmin paladin doesn't make sense either. It's Pharasma hates undead, but she has much more to her than that. It is very valid to be an evil cleric of Pharasma. Pharasma does not care about good or evil. She cares about Fate, Death, Birth, and not allowing undead to exist. Not because she thinks they're icky, but because they're a subversion of the natural cycle of birth/life/death and fate that she represents.
Sure, paladins and pharasma agree that undead suck, but for different reasons.
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All Holy Reach does is give you the Lunge Feat for 1 min. By the time you start fighting Giants your BaB will be high enough to nab the feat itself, and you won't have to blow through your Smite Evils to use it anymore.Oath Against Undead Paladin who is a devout Pharasmin?Problem is is that that oath isn't really good for Rise of the Runelords. We're fighting giants later on so the Oath Against Savagery works a lot better, netting me 1 minute of +5 reach per use of Smite (And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite) for a 15ft reach with a polearm.
I mean if I had free reign on what I wanted to play (as in no restrictions) I'd be running a Pharasman Warpriest that uses daggers and Splintering Weapon with a whole mess of cheap stone daggers.
We're also playing the AP with like 7 people so the 15ft reach, especially at low levels, will come in handy. I only played the first book but I expressly remember very cramped corridors even for 4 players.
That and Lunge gives you -2 AC for the round whereas Holy Reach does not and you can grab it at level 2. Not saying I can't or won't grab Lunge when I can though.
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG?
In the game no, BUT.... as you are playing rise of the runelords you are playing on Golarion. On Golarion, Paladins require deities. (which is why pfs requires a deity)
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In the game no, BUT.... as you are playing rise of the runelords you are playing on Golarion. On Golarion, Paladins require deities. (which is why pfs requires a deity)
The issue as as thus: Do Paladins, as written and not expressly for PFS, have to worship a deity that is within one step of LG?
Um, no. PFS Paladins may require a Deity, but just being on Golarion Paladins do not require a Deity.
Also, if all you mechanically want is reach, why not just wield a reach weapon? There's nothing that says that a paladin has to use the favored weapon of their deity.I kinda figured that was a thing O_o I usually play bards and Druids so it's never really been any sort of an issue.
Nope. You never even have to pick up a favored weapon if you don't want.
In fact, a paladin with a strategic bent might well carry and wield several different types of weapons, knowing that some foes are resistant to different types of attacks.
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Also, if all you mechanically want is reach, why not just wield a reach weapon? There's nothing that says that a paladin has to use the favored weapon of their deity.I kinda figured that was a thing O_o I usually play bards and Druids so it's never really been any sort of an issue.Nope. You never even have to pick up a favored weapon if you don't want.
In fact, a paladin with a strategic bent might well carry and wield several different types of weapons, knowing that some foes are resistant to different types of attacks.
Well that does make things far more simple.
Now to just find a deity that works.
*Flips through the Inner Sea Gods book* Suppose Sarenrae would work. Her Evangelist bonuses are pretty nice.
RAW you can worship Rovagug and Asmodeus as a paladin.
IMHO it would make sense that they have to worship Good deity (if they worshiping one at all)
I think I read somewhere about some CG deity (might be Desna) having paladins, so precedent for this may exist.I'm pretty sure that's not a thing, unless you can provide a source to back up your claim.
He might be thinking of Clinton Boomer's page which created a Chaotic Good archetype of the Anti-Paladin specifically geared towards Desna.
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RAW you can worship Rovagug and Asmodeus as a paladin.
IMHO it would make sense that they have to worship Good deity (if they worshiping one at all)
Raw with Rovagug, absolutely NO. RAW with Asmodeus also absolutely no, because the only text you'll find to back that idea up has been repeatedly outed as a publication mistake.
RAW you absolutely cannot.
Can you please provide the quote?
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Ragathiel is a good choice, if you just want to be all about the fighting.
Raw with Rovagug, absolutely NO. RAW with Asmodeus also absolutely no, because the only text you'll find to back that idea up has been repeatedly outed as a publication mistake.
I say as it is written. Unless they made errata and i missed it, rules say you can worship whoever you want. Other question is, if paladin instantly falls by worshipping evil deity...
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Ragathiel is a good choice, if you just want to be all about the fighting.
Yeah, was looking at the Empyreal Lords but there's no support with Evangelist. I mean I could skip the prestige class and just go straight Paladin but the fiddly bits and Align Class just look so fun.
Granted if Warpriest was allowed for this game hell yes so many options.
Besmarian Warpriest woooooo.
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Raw with Rovagug, absolutely NO. RAW with Asmodeus also absolutely no, because the only text you'll find to back that idea up has been repeatedly outed as a publication mistake.I say as it is written. Unless they made errata and i missed it, rules say you can worship whoever you want. Other question is, if paladin instantly falls by worshipping evil deity...
There is nothing written to back you up, the opposite in fact. Paladins have to be LG, so they can only worship LG, LN, and NG Deities.
As to your second question, no they wouldn't "fall" because they wouldn't be a Paladin in the first place.
There is nothing written to back you up, the opposite in fact. Paladins have to be LG, so they can only worship LG, LN, and NG Deities.
There is clause on the cleric chapter saying cleric must worship deity within one step.
There is no such one at paladin chapter. There is no such one at fighter or rogue or socerer chapter. Therefore all those classes can choose whatever deity they want.Not that i agree, i just dont see any rule restriction.
There is in the divine magic part of chapter nine though. :-)
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There is nothing written to back you up, the opposite in fact. Paladins have to be LG, so they can only worship LG, LN, and NG Deities.There is clause on the cleric chapter saying cleric must worship deity within one step.
There is no such one at paladin chapter. There is no such one at fighter or rogue or socerer chapter. Therefore all those classes can choose whatever deity they want.Not that i agree, i just dont see any rule restriction.
Rogue and Fighter don't have Alignment and Code restrictions, but if you want to get pedantic:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Right there in the Code. I would definitely put worship under the label of "associate with".
There is in the divine magic part of chapter nine though. :-)
Thanks, gonna check that one when i get it.
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Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
I see your point.
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Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.While the specifics of my questions might change, the general idea is the same. How would someone dedicated to order and holy conduct, to comporting themselves according to tenets of righteousness and duty explain the choice to worship and receive power from a deity who does not, in their very nature, evidence at least some of those qualities?
In the specific case of Pharasma, as Drahliana Moonrunner points out above, she is uncaring. Her indifference might be a matter of some difficulty for someone who truly believed in actively promulgating goodness and order in the world. Not to mention that your character's co-religionists could be evil without penalty, which means that instead of supporting and advancing right and order, your warrior would be advancing (at best) benign indifference.
...You guys do realize Pharasma's priests DO help people, right?
Neutral Good is a valid alignment for her Clerics. You know, hands down THE MOST altruistic alignment in the game?
They act as scourge of the undead, as well as midwives and perform funeral rites and consecrations on a regular basis. All things a Paladin should be able to get behind.
"Advancing indifference" is just such a silly statement I'm not sure how to react to it.
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Edit: Urgathoa is just an example. If anything I'd be leaning more towards Pharasma.While the specifics of my questions might change, the general idea is the same. How would someone dedicated to order and holy conduct, to comporting themselves according to tenets of righteousness and duty explain the choice to worship and receive power from a deity who does not, in their very nature, evidence at least some of those qualities?
In the specific case of Pharasma, as Drahliana Moonrunner points out above, she is uncaring. Her indifference might be a matter of some difficulty for someone who truly believed in actively promulgating goodness and order in the world. Not to mention that your character's co-religionists could be evil without penalty, which means that instead of supporting and advancing right and order, your warrior would be advancing (at best) benign indifference.
...You guys do realize Pharasma's priests DO help people, right?
Neutral Good is a valid alignment for her Clerics. You know, hands down THE MOST altruistic alignment in the game?
They act as scourge of the undead, as well as midwives and perform funeral rites and consecrations on a regular basis. All things a Paladin should be able to get behind.
"Advancing indifference" is just such a silly statement I'm not sure how to react to it.
Key word being Pharasma's Priests. Not Pharasma.
And advancing indifference would be an accurate statement if you, as a Paladin of Pharasma, did nothing against her evil yet faithful worshippers.
Are you under the impression that the Paladin here would BE Pharasma or...?
And advancing indifference would be an accurate statement if you, as a Paladin of Pharasma, did nothing against her evil if faithful worshippers.
So a Paladin must root out every single evil member of any organization he's a part of?
The Hellknights say hi.
Pharasma is the one case where most reasonable GM's make the exception, especially in Carrion Crown or any undead focused campaign. In such a case the Paladin serves not so much as a knight but as a death warden, specially appointed by the Goddess of Death, a champion of her authority tasked to put those who would cheat the grave back in it.
Are you under the impression that the Paladin here would BE Pharasma or...??
The argument is "Paladins can't worship Pharasma because Paharasma doesn't care and worshiping her would mean not helping people".
I point out that her worshipers help people on a regular basis.
You say "Yeah but the GODDESS doesn't care".
I'm just wondering if you got your wires crossed somewhere because that doesn't mean diddly since the Paladin would be a WORSHIPER, who is free to help people as he wishes, not the deity herself.
The goddess cares very much when it's life vs undeath.
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Are you under the impression that the Paladin here would BE Pharasma or...??The argument is "Paladins can't worship Pharasma because Paharasma doesn't care and worshiping her would mean not helping people".
I point out that her worshipers help peope on a regular basis.
You say "Yeah but the GODDESS doesn't care".
I'm just wondering if you got your wires crossed somewhere because that doesn't mean diddly since the Paladin would be a WORSHIPER, who is free to help people as he wishes, not the deity herself.
Her NG worshippers help people. But aside from wanting Undead destroyed in order to process their souls she's a completely indifferent Goddess when it comes to Good and Evil, which is a being a Paladin probably shouldn't work for.
(And I plan on grabbing Extra Smite)
Extra Smite?
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Are you under the impression that the Paladin here would BE Pharasma or...?
And advancing indifference would be an accurate statement if you, as a Paladin of Pharasma, did nothing against her evil if faithful worshippers.So a Paladin must root out every single evil member of any organization he's a part of?
The Hellknights say hi.
Organization =/= Actual Deity you worship.
This would fall under the team up for the greater good then immediately seek out atonement deal.
You have yet to explain why.
As a Paladin, YOU stand for Good.
You happen to worship a deity who is ambivalent, but promotes many things you find good (healthy childbirth, destruction of undead, proper burials).
Why is worship a bad thing?
You don't receive power from Pharasma, you receive power from Good, the universal concept that transcends deities. You don't need to fall lockstep with her entire mindset, just the parts you like.
That's why Paladin Hellknights can get on just fine revering the sheer orderliness of Hell, but not the Evil parts.
Granted I am more okay with the idea of a Paladin of Pharasma than I am with Paladins of Abadar, which are unfortunately a thing.
I like to imagine Paladins of Abadar all have pompadours, slick grins, and ridiculous wives/sidekicks. They travel the countryside in tent shows explaining how their god wants them to be rich... at least until Starfinder, when they start their own television network...