At 20th level:
- 3 attacks via primary hand
- 3 attacks via off-hand and GTWF
- 2 attacks via Flurry of Stars (uses 1 Ki point)
- 1 attack via Rapid Shot
- 1 attack via spending 1 Ki point, using one of the Ki Pool's abilities
So... 10 shuriken attacks? Each potentially dealing Sneak Attack damage if all conditions are met?
Granted I need:
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
- Point-Blank Shot
- Rapid Shot
- Quick Draw
But still...
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You'll be lucky if two of them hit the enemy.
10 shuriken that all miss.
I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...
Keep in mind none of your shurikens are enchanted (probably) since they count as ammunition and are destroyed after being thrown.
Good news though is you don't need quick draw since they count as ammunition.
You will also probably want precise shot, improved precise shot for this otherwise you'll take even more penalties.
And also, you'll provoke for each ranged attack you make since you don't have point blank master. Which is okay if no one is next to you, but if someone is next to you provoking an AoO could kill you.
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As well, we're talking about a 20th-level character. So, picture the fights at the end of any Adventure Path (one of the stronger runelords, or Xin himself, an ancient wyrm underworld dragon backed by a large army of taiga giants, a vampire with 17 levels of antipaladin, a creatue that can hop from body to body) and then, for most APs, make things 3 - 5 levels tougher. That's what your ninja is going up against. If she gets a chance to make a full attack, spends two ki, rolls well, has an opponent set up for sneak attack flanking, and doesn't have any enemies that can take an attack of opportunity against her, then, sure.
I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...
Still what?
A Ninja is designed around having lots of attacks that never hit unless you're really lucky.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's important to remember flanking doesn't grant the ability to sneak attack with ranged weapons, so you have to find another way to deny the enemy their dex to AC.
And before you say Invisibility, at 20th level you can expect most creatures you encounter will have truesight or some other capacity to see invisible creatures. It's super duper common.
If you can make those touch attacks somehow you're looking pretty strong.
Or just use it to kill all of the minions while the rest of the party focuses on the big stuff.
Shuriken are great as sneak attack surprise weapons, coated with a bit of poison.
They're not really supposed to be good at anything else.
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Shuriken are great as sneak attack surprise weapons, coated with a bit of poison.
They're not really supposed to be good at anything else.
Unless you're a fighter with Focused Weapon and Trained Throw, but even then you'd be better off with a shortspear, the dragoon archetype, and ricochet toss. Or possibly a Warpriest with divine might and greater magic weapon.
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It's important to remember flanking doesn't grant the ability to sneak attack with ranged weapons, so you have to find another way to deny the enemy their dex to AC.
And before you say Invisibility, at 20th level you can expect most creatures you encounter will have truesight or some other capacity to see invisible creatures. It's super duper common.
I bolded a bit for emphasis, but yeah consider that Dexterity denied.
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.
Hidden Master burns through ki at a very rapid pace, especially when consider all the other ki this person intends to spend on throwing shuriken.
They are likely to use up all their ki in 1 single combat if they start using Hidden Master too.
Something you have that is incorrect is using ki twice. Using ki is a swift action, so if you use ki to get 2 extra shuriken you can't use it again to get 1 extra attack since you'd have already used your swift action.
It makes me sad the lack of love for ninjas..... one of the few PF classes that actually existed!
Ninjas existed... but as nothing like they are depticed in most fiction, including pathfinder.
Well obviously!!!!!
I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...Still what?
A Ninja is designed around having lots of attacks that never hit unless you're really lucky.
Still "it's possible to get as many as 10 attacks using the feats/class features I've listed"...
Ok, I understand that hitting something would be problematic, but there are ways to counter that, be by spells, magic items, high dexterity score and whatnot.
I get that it can be situational, but I'm also asking this as a GM, y'know, to prepare a high-level encounter. I get that I can make up rules as I go, but I like to follow them as closely as possible, hence why I asked if I could get as many as 10 ranged shuriken attacks in one round. I can think about how to get a better attack roll later, but I need to start with this before thinking about that :P
I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...Still what?
A Ninja is designed around having lots of attacks that never hit unless you're really lucky.Still "it's possible to get as many as 10 attacks using the feats/class features I've listed"...
Ok, I understand that hitting something would be problematic, but there are ways to counter that, be by spells, magic items, high dexterity score and whatnot.
I get that it can be situational, but I'm also asking this as a GM, y'know, to prepare a high-level encounter. I get that I can make up rules as I go, but I like to follow them as closely as possible, hence why I asked if I could get as many as 10 ranged shuriken attacks in one round. I can think about how to get a better attack roll later, but I need to start with this before thinking about that :P
Only 9 attacks.
What kind of damage is each shuriken going to do, sans sneak attack, if it hits too?
Only 9 attacks.I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...Still what?
A Ninja is designed around having lots of attacks that never hit unless you're really lucky.Still "it's possible to get as many as 10 attacks using the feats/class features I've listed"...
Ok, I understand that hitting something would be problematic, but there are ways to counter that, be by spells, magic items, high dexterity score and whatnot.
I get that it can be situational, but I'm also asking this as a GM, y'know, to prepare a high-level encounter. I get that I can make up rules as I go, but I like to follow them as closely as possible, hence why I asked if I could get as many as 10 ranged shuriken attacks in one round. I can think about how to get a better attack roll later, but I need to start with this before thinking about that :P
Which one doesn't work?
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Which one doesn't work?Only 9 attacks.I get that the Attack Roll would have a penalty (-2 TWF, -2 Flurry, -2 Rapid Shot), but still...Still what?
A Ninja is designed around having lots of attacks that never hit unless you're really lucky.Still "it's possible to get as many as 10 attacks using the feats/class features I've listed"...
Ok, I understand that hitting something would be problematic, but there are ways to counter that, be by spells, magic items, high dexterity score and whatnot.
I get that it can be situational, but I'm also asking this as a GM, y'know, to prepare a high-level encounter. I get that I can make up rules as I go, but I like to follow them as closely as possible, hence why I asked if I could get as many as 10 ranged shuriken attacks in one round. I can think about how to get a better attack roll later, but I need to start with this before thinking about that :P
You can't spend ki on both flurry of shuriken and an extra attack, because spending a ki point is a swift action.
And that's not counting the buff round to activate hidden master.
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Keep in mind none of your shurikens are enchanted (probably) since they count as ammunition and are destroyed after being thrown.
Good news though is you don't need quick draw since they count as ammunition.
You will also probably want precise shot, improved precise shot for this otherwise you'll take even more penalties.
And also, you'll provoke for each ranged attack you make since you don't have point blank master. Which is okay if no one is next to you, but if someone is next to you provoking an AoO could kill you.
20th level. Greater magic weapon is a 3rd level spell, a level 3 pearl of power for your friend cost 9.000 gp. If your cleric or wizard friend is 2oth level you get 50 +5 shurikens for each casting. Granted they only bypass magical DR, but the price of silver or cold iron shurikens is negligible.
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It's important to remember flanking doesn't grant the ability to sneak attack with ranged weapons, so you have to find another way to deny the enemy their dex to AC.
And before you say Invisibility, at 20th level you can expect most creatures you encounter will have truesight or some other capacity to see invisible creatures. It's super duper common.
I bolded a bit for emphasis, but yeah consider that Dexterity denied.
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.
Glitterdust and Faerie fire seem to work against that ability as they don't detect anything, they outline the affected creatures.
20th level. Greater magic weapon is a 3rd level spell, a level 3 pearl of power for your friend cost 9.000 gp. If your cleric or wizard friend is 2oth level you get 50 +5 shurikens for each casting. Granted they only bypass magical DR, but the price of silver or cold iron shurikens is negligible.Keep in mind none of your shurikens are enchanted (probably) since they count as ammunition and are destroyed after being thrown.
Good news though is you don't need quick draw since they count as ammunition.
You will also probably want precise shot, improved precise shot for this otherwise you'll take even more penalties.
And also, you'll provoke for each ranged attack you make since you don't have point blank master. Which is okay if no one is next to you, but if someone is next to you provoking an AoO could kill you.
These are still all things he hadn't mentioned or accounted for in his original post.
And if he's throwing 9 shurikens a round, 50 shuriken may or may not be sufficient for 1 combat, depending on if it runs long.
And then he needs to have it cast again. He needs about 1 casting per combat because of the rate at which he will go through shurikens.
This also presume there is an allied caster that is willing to prepare Greater Magic Weapon each day. Its not necessarily going to be guaranteed to happen, though its not necessarily unlikely either. But it is something worth mentioned and bringing up as a fault in the overall plan.
Shuriken are not designed to be machine gun bullets. You throw a group of them for distraction with some poison/minor enchantments and hope you hit with two or three, then go invis or stealth and sneak attack with stuff like smoke or poison bomb or the kuji-kiri Naruto shadow clone ki power thing. Or add in an explosive shuriken now and then. Ninjas work best in quick strike and infiltration moves, just like spec forces now.
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@ Saldiven Being invisible, beside negating the target dexterity bonus, his dodge bonus and some other bonuses that depend on seeing the attacker, give you a +2 to hit that I don't see in your calculations.
Sadly being invisible even for your allies make you an invalid target for some combat buff, but if they are cast before combat: haste will give you a +1 or, alternatively, blessing of fervor a +2, prayer another +1 and don't care about targeting.
Conditions imposed by the first sneak attacks can give further benefits.
There are tons of small benefits that when stacked can end in a big modifier, the problem is having them running at the right time. Spending 15 rounds in pre-battle bluffs and then having some of them expire before you get in range and in position to use it can be a problem.
Shuriken are not designed to be machine gun bullets. You throw a group of them for distraction with some poison/minor enchantments and hope you hit with two or three, then go invis or stealth and sneak attack with stuff like smoke or poison bomb or the kuji-kiri Naruto shadow clone ki power thing. Or add in an explosive shuriken now and then. Ninjas work best in quick strike and infiltration moves, just like spec forces now.
Well... yeah... I understand the practical natural of shurikens, but... how do you explain "Flurry of Stars" then?
What about holding a shuriken between each finger and flicking the wrist, or swiping a stack with your hand? Ok, not feasible in real life, but... we're talking about ninjas with Ki points, so...
A single shuriken coupled with a sneak attack is a good strategy for skirmish and yes, you could assassinate a NPC with a single star, but what if you could release a whole bunch at once?
You get what I'm talking about, right? Realistically, a shuriken wasn't built for that, but as a Pathfinder weapon, it can be done, so why not go along that?
it can be done, so why not go along that?
Because it's really really bad.
Well, even if you somewhat managed to be efficient at level 20 with shuriken thanks to the capstone ability, you will still be very bad from 1 to 19.
And you will have to use every feat you have on this :
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
- Point-Blank Shot
- Rapid Shot
- Precise shot
- Shadow strike
- maybe Improved Precise shot
That leaves you with 2 free feats for ninja stuff or other things.
You take full DR againt adamantine and aligned.
Against someone that can't be sneak attacked, you do 1d1+6 per attack, maybe (the capstone reduces the risk of being detected, but does not eliminate innate immunities, or well Dispel).
Against someone that is not at 10 feet, you take -2 per 10 feet (for example, you take -4 to attack rolls against someone at 30 feet). You can't attack a creature that is more than 50 feet away.
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@ Saldiven Being invisible, beside negating the target dexterity bonus, his dodge bonus and some other bonuses that depend on seeing the attacker, give you a +2 to hit that I don't see in your calculations.Yeah, it was there. It was the reference to "attacking from super-invis;" meaning the ninja capstone ability.
Can you think of any spells or items that increase Dexterity with something other than a Enhancement or Inherent bonus?
And keep the hands?
Use Alter self or Monstrous Physique to turn in something small: "you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity" even if you change in the same kind of creature you were from the start.