Could Asmodeus and Nyarlathotep be the same individual?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Impossible, right? One is LE and the other is CE, but could it be the case? Vigilantes can have multiple alignments, so why can't some of the oldest and most powerful entities?

What brought the notion to me, and the only real thing I can lean upon is that one or more of his forms lines up with depictions of the devil. The Black Man being the one to point to. But thats within the works of lovecraft, not Pathfinder.

So I ask the following;

Could they be be the same entity?
If so, how do you think this would manifest? How did it begin?
If not, why? Could they have some other connection?


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Now that you mention it, I have never seen both of them in the same room at the same time...


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Them being the same entity?
Hardly! Nyarlathotep is nothing but a servant to the whims of Azathoth; Asmodeus is servant to no one!

That and causing subversive madness and chaos is more important to him than (mostly) anything else. His idea and vision of ruling is far different than the structure of Asmodeus'.

In addition:

Quote:


The few beings able to survive in the vast, cold void of space are too alien for even the gods to comprehend

If anything this points that Asmodeus may be a mask of Nyarlatho---

My head.


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Of course, it could be just that everybody just THINKS that Nyarlathotep is the servant of Azathoth.

It could be that they are two sides of the same coin in this way:

Asmodeus is the Order that Enforces Chaos;
Nyarlathotep is the Freedom that Unleashes Tyranny.


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Nyarlathotep may be the servant of Azathoth, but I suspect its a service that parallels that of the shoguns to the Emperor - a servant in name only.

I'm 100% sure they're separate entities in Pathfinder, but Asmodeus being a very significant mask of Nyarlathotep could be a fun premise.

(And selecting certain other entities to actually be Nyarlathotep could also be amusing.)

There's already precedent in Pathfinder canon for Nyarlathotep's masks counting as separate gods with different domains. I remember grinning when I saw Nyarlathotep had two entries in the index at the back of Inner Sea Gods.


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Well, vigilantes have to be within one step, so that theory doesn't work.. The idea of Nyarlathotep just being a level billion vigilante is hilarious though.


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Snakers wrote:
Well, vigilantes have to be within one step, so that theory doesn't work.. The idea of Nyarlathotep just being a level billion vigilante is hilarious though.

Once you crest your 1 millionth level in vigilante you're able to have a larger split in your alignments.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Snakers wrote:
Well, vigilantes have to be within one step, so that theory doesn't work.. The idea of Nyarlathotep just being a level billion vigilante is hilarious though.
Once you crest your 1 millionth level in vigilante you're able to have a larger split in your alignments.

And you can finally switch forms as a Swift action!


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Snakers wrote:
Well, vigilantes have to be within one step, so that theory doesn't work.. The idea of Nyarlathotep just being a level billion vigilante is hilarious though.

To be fair, given the example given with the vigilante, it is more of a matter of 2 steps, just not in the same direction.


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Xuldarinar wrote:
Snakers wrote:
Well, vigilantes have to be within one step, so that theory doesn't work.. The idea of Nyarlathotep just being a level billion vigilante is hilarious though.
To be fair, given the example given with the vigilante, it is more of a matter of 2 steps, just not in the same direction.

When Nyarlathotep went to vigilante school he had to go in different directions every day! Uphill, downhill, overhill, throughhill, aroundhill, and otherhill! Thrice ways! In the snow! That was on fire!

Then he gave his protege Batman the ability to manipulate time so he could learn ~600 years worth of martial arts and college degrees in 10 and fool everybody into thinking he has no superpowers.


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Once you feel the rush of blind worship, class levels become meaningless.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Heh. More likely, Nyarlathotep was the individual who secretly inspired the person who invented Asmodeus to invent Asmodeus.


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Daddy!


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James Jacobs wrote:
Heh. More likely, Nyarlathotep was the individual who secretly inspired the person who invented Asmodeus to invent Asmodeus.

So... Asmodeus is a copy/homage to Nyarlathotep?

Thats certainly is different.


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Xuldarinar wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Heh. More likely, Nyarlathotep was the individual who secretly inspired the person who invented Asmodeus to invent Asmodeus.

So... Asmodeus is a copy/homage to Nyarlathotep?

Thats certainly is different.

It's from James Jakobs too, so it's not only different, but canon.

Don't you dare deny it, James. The secret is out.


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Soo... Nyarlathotep inspired Tobit! Tobit created Asmodeus ~2800 years ago. Or thereabouts. And then muddied the history of the Book of Tobit because he's a dick. Damn you Nyarlathotep, damn you and your meddling to make history vague and difficult to determine.

Hrmm. I wonder how many other historical Earthling figures could be easily mixed into Golarion history the way they imparted Rasputin and Baba Yaga. Perhaps Merlin is actually Jatembe after he succumbed to the same skin condition Michael Jackson had?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Or maybe they changed it in the books.

I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ wasn't some pasty white hippie, yet that is a common misconception. :-)

Grand Lodge

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I can't believe no one mentioned this yet: They are BOTH rumored to be the father of Graz'zt.

Some believe The Crawling Chaos spawned Graz'zt with Pale Night.

Some believe Asmodeus spawned Graz'zt with Pale Night.

Maybe they are the same.

.

(but not in MY game)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

James Jacobs wrote the 3.5 Abyss book of the damned.

Liberty's Edge

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W E Ray wrote:

I can't believe no one mentioned this yet: They are BOTH rumored to be the father of Graz'zt.

Some believe The Crawling Chaos spawned Graz'zt with Pale Night.

Some believe Asmodeus spawned Graz'zt with Pale Night.

Maybe they are the same.

.

(but not in MY game)

Maybe they're a couple and Pale Night is a surrogate mom?

Grand Lodge

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Jacobs wrote:
More likely, Nyarlathotep was the individual who secretly inspired the person who invented Asmodeus to invent Asmodeus.

Nice!

.

captain yesterday wrote:
James Jacobs wrote the 3.5 Abyss book of the damned.

.

The problem with any Jacobs comment on Devils is that, since his common sense has been irrevocably impaired by his pitiful love affair with Demons from childhood on (Ooh Wee, Demogorgon has 1 whole HP more than Asmodeus, big whoopie), nothing he writes about Devils and The Nine Hells can be taken seriously.

You can't trust what Demon-lovers say about Devils.

;)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey! I really like Succubi, but also think Contract Devils are hot as hell.

Edit: I didn't catch that before I posted. I feel bad now -_-


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No no no no no... guys, Nethys is Nyarlathotep in a Two-Face mask!


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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
No no no no no... guys, Nethys is Nyarlathotep in a Two-Face mask!

Can't various deities/demigods be Nyarlathotep?


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Xuldarinar wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
No no no no no... guys, Nethys is Nyarlathotep in a Two-Face mask!
Can't various deities/demigods be Nyarlathotep?

Or maybe EVERY deity is Nyarlathotep.


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Ventnor wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
No no no no no... guys, Nethys is Nyarlathotep in a Two-Face mask!
Can't various deities/demigods be Nyarlathotep?
Or maybe EVERY deity is Nyarlathotep.

Now time to convince a paladin of that.


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They are definitely not the same being. Asmodeus wishes he was as cool as Nyarlothotep. Nyarlothotep wishes he was as powerful as Asmodeus.

Now I could totally see both of them masquerading as the other putting into question if you've met or even been serving the wrong one. Doesn't help that both of them would have zero problem with throwing a Xanetos Gambit at you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think the Pathfinder cosmology's weakness is also its strength. Which is to say, the developers/authors just throw a bunch of stuff out there - much of it mutually exclusive - and tell the readers to draw their own conclusions.

A Lovecraftian mythology works in a Lovecraftian universe, but when you add ancient Egyptian mythology via Osirion, a pseudo-Christian concept of Heaven and Hell, and the real actual planet Earth, things get... muddy. Then throw in dozens of unique pantheons comprised of all sorts of gods, each with their own unique creation myths etc., and things get... literally impossible to make sense of. I'll call it the "Lost" effect. A corollary could be that, when authors/writers/creators are forced to try and explain everything and solve all the mysteries, the results are often vastly unsatisfying.

Some audiences are going to be put off by this style. There is no one truth in Pathfinder, or if there is, the developers aren't telling (because again: unsatisfying to most people). We the readers have only this ambiguous soup of maybes. Personally I prefer it that way. Because yes, Asmodeus is Nyarlathotep. Also no, they are obviously not the same. Often simultaneously.


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I like where this is going. ^^


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think Tacticslion favorited every post on this page. You're welcome Tacticslion?


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(stands up)

I'm Nyarlathotep!


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Mudfoot wrote:

(stands up)

I'm Nyarlathotep!

I'm Spartacus!

I mean Nyarlathotep!


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Ventnor wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:

(stands up)

I'm Nyarlathotep!

I'm Spartacus!

I mean Nyarlathotep!

He's Nyarlathotep. That guy.

Me? No, I'm just a run of the mill coward. That's the guy you want. He may also be Spartacus.


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Generic Villain wrote:
I think Tacticslion favorited every post on this page. You're welcome Tacticslion?

New working hypothesis: Tacticslion is Nyarlathotep.

Discuss.


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Obviously, this means that Tacticslion is also Asmodeus.


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Ventnor wrote:
Obviously, this means that Tacticslion is also Asmodeus.

Does the transitive property apply to Outer Gods? Seems a bit... Euclidean.


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You gotta start at 90° angles before you move to i° angles, that's what my grampa always said.


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Ventnor wrote:
You gotta start at 90° angles before you move to i° angles, that's what my grampa always said.

Too complex for my blood.


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I wonder how the Key held by Asmodeus factors into this notion, if at all.


Generic Villain wrote:

I think the Pathfinder cosmology's weakness is also its strength. Which is to say, the developers/authors just throw a bunch of stuff out there - much of it mutually exclusive - and tell the readers to draw their own conclusions.

A Lovecraftian mythology works in a Lovecraftian universe, but when you add ancient Egyptian mythology via Osirion, a pseudo-Christian concept of Heaven and Hell, and the real actual planet Earth, things get... muddy. Then throw in dozens of unique pantheons comprised of all sorts of gods, each with their own unique creation myths etc., and things get... literally impossible to make sense of. I'll call it the "Lost" effect. A corollary could be that, when authors/writers/creators are forced to try and explain everything and solve all the mysteries, the results are often vastly unsatisfying.

Some audiences are going to be put off by this style. There is no one truth in Pathfinder, or if there is, the developers aren't telling (because again: unsatisfying to most people). We the readers have only this ambiguous soup of maybes. Personally I prefer it that way. Because yes, Asmodeus is Nyarlathotep. Also no, they are obviously not the same. Often simultaneously.

Given that the "actual planet Earth" only has a one off point of access, I wouldn't factor it's existence into your calculations. Unless your campaign is that AP, Earth for all intents and purposes, does not exist.


Generic Villain wrote:

I think the Pathfinder cosmology's weakness is also its strength. Which is to say, the developers/authors just throw a bunch of stuff out there - much of it mutually exclusive - and tell the readers to draw their own conclusions.

A Lovecraftian mythology works in a Lovecraftian universe, but when you add ancient Egyptian mythology via Osirion, a pseudo-Christian concept of Heaven and Hell, and the real actual planet Earth, things get... muddy. Then throw in dozens of unique pantheons comprised of all sorts of gods, each with their own unique creation myths etc., and things get... literally impossible to make sense of. I'll call it the "Lost" effect. A corollary could be that, when authors/writers/creators are forced to try and explain everything and solve all the mysteries, the results are often vastly unsatisfying.

Some audiences are going to be put off by this style. There is no one truth in Pathfinder, or if there is, the developers aren't telling (because again: unsatisfying to most people). We the readers have only this ambiguous soup of maybes. Personally I prefer it that way. Because yes, Asmodeus is Nyarlathotep. Also no, they are obviously not the same. Often simultaneously.

While I agree with the gist of the post, I'd say it's not a problem, usually, to have dozens of unique pantheons. They can be balanced pretty well.

The problem is when you want to factor Lovecraftian Mythos in. They are predatory by their very nature - In order to preserve the authentic Mythos feel, they have to be beyond even the other gods. If they aren't, they become simply Very Big Aberrations, and thus, not Lovecraftian at all.

I have the unpopular opinion that Lovecraftian Great Old Ones et al shouldn't be mixed with other elements. They are better left alone.


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Generic Villain wrote:
I think Tacticslion favorited every post on this page. You're welcome Tacticslion?

Thanks! :D


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quibblemuch wrote:


New working hypothesis: Tacticslion is Nyarlathotep.

Discuss.

The devil you say?!

Õ.o

Ventnor wrote:
Obviously, this means that Tacticslion is also Asmodeus.

The devil, you say?!

>:(

quibblemuch wrote:
Does the transitive property apply to Outer Gods? Seems a bit... Euclidean.

The devil, you say!

o.O?

Ventnor wrote:
You gotta start at 90° angles before you move to i° angles, that's what my grampa always said.

The... devil... you... say...?

õ.õ

quibblemuch wrote:
Too complex for my blood.

"The devil" you say.

>.>


Xuldarinar wrote:
I wonder how the Key held by Asmodeus factors into this notion, if at all.

It doesn't. Pay no attention to the key behind the curtain of darkness.

But you wanna key? I know a guy...


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Patrick C. wrote:

{. . .}

The problem is when you want to factor Lovecraftian Mythos in. They are predatory by their very nature - In order to preserve the authentic Mythos feel, they have to be beyond even the other gods. If they aren't, they become simply Very Big Aberrations, and thus, not Lovecraftian at all.
{. . .}

On the contrary, Very Big Aberrations are quite Lovecraftian. Who says Aberrations can't be so big as to give deities pause? Rovagug would qualify for this if not already classified as an Outsider (really ought to be able to combine the types and have things like Outsider Aberration, etc.).


Patrick C. wrote:


The problem is when you want to factor Lovecraftian Mythos in. They are predatory by their very nature - In order to preserve the authentic Mythos feel, they have to be beyond even the other gods. If they aren't, they become simply Very Big Aberrations, and thus, not Lovecraftian at all.

This really isn't an issue unless your players are super powered enough to kill demi-gods.


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Shady Contact wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:
I wonder how the Key held by Asmodeus factors into this notion, if at all.

It doesn't. Pay no attention to the key behind the curtain of darkness.

But you wanna key? I know a guy...

But maybe it does..

And Yog-Sothoth hold the title of The Key and The Gate.. So what if Nyarlathotep is Asmodeus... and Yog-Sothoth is the Key to Rovagug's prison?


Xuldarinar wrote:
Shady Contact wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:
I wonder how the Key held by Asmodeus factors into this notion, if at all.

It doesn't. Pay no attention to the key behind the curtain of darkness.

But you wanna key? I know a guy...

But maybe it does..

And Yog-Sothoth hold the title of The Key and The Gate.. So what if Nyarlathotep is Asmodeus... and Yog-Sothoth is the Key to Rovagug's prison?

If that's the story you want to write, go for it. You don't really need to wait for the official Paizo "word" on the matter... one that will likely never come.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Patrick C. wrote:

{. . .}

The problem is when you want to factor Lovecraftian Mythos in. They are predatory by their very nature - In order to preserve the authentic Mythos feel, they have to be beyond even the other gods. If they aren't, they become simply Very Big Aberrations, and thus, not Lovecraftian at all.
{. . .}

On the contrary, Very Big Aberrations are quite Lovecraftian. Who says Aberrations can't be so big as to give deities pause? Rovagug would qualify for this if not already classified as an Outsider (really ought to be able to combine the types and have things like Outsider Aberration, etc.).

Except... Not really.

Lovecraftian Great Old Ones are not only about power. They work by completely breaking down a character's sense of reality, causing upheaval in the whole structure of the story. They shouldn't exist. They are not rational. They are absurd.

So, if you wanna use a Lovecraftian abomination in a standard pulp fantasy setting, where things like dragons, mummies, manticores angels and demons run around, that feeling is lost: Why should a squid-thing give pause to a summoner who regularly deal with six-armed half-snake demon women? The only option is making them even weirder: they are worse than angels, fairies, dragons and other things, even more alien, even more absurd. You have to make them a step above the other "outsider" races, and thus the Lovecraftian themes "trump" the others.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Patrick C. wrote:


The problem is when you want to factor Lovecraftian Mythos in. They are predatory by their very nature - In order to preserve the authentic Mythos feel, they have to be beyond even the other gods. If they aren't, they become simply Very Big Aberrations, and thus, not Lovecraftian at all.

This really isn't an issue unless your players are super powered enough to kill demi-gods.

It is, tough.

Gods like Norgober or Zon-Kuthon or Asmodeus don't pack the same punch when something like Azathoth exists. I can understand them. I can know them. Heck, most of the times, I know their origins, their limits, their themes.

A proper Lovecraftian being, tough? Alien. Unknowable. Indifferent to anything else. It has been here way before the gods, it will remain after they go. Extremely powerful. The heart of the universe. And so it goes. It's a whole different level of "Oh my, I'm really screwed".

If you make Azathoth something smaller than the top god in your setting, it's not Azathoth anymore. If you make Azathoth Azathoth, Lovecraft has subsumed everything else, and the "human" gods fare little better than mortals standing against the terrible elder things from the dark between the stars.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:
Shady Contact wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:
I wonder how the Key held by Asmodeus factors into this notion, if at all.

It doesn't. Pay no attention to the key behind the curtain of darkness.

But you wanna key? I know a guy...

But maybe it does..

And Yog-Sothoth hold the title of The Key and The Gate.. So what if Nyarlathotep is Asmodeus... and Yog-Sothoth is the Key to Rovagug's prison?

If that's the story you want to write, go for it. You don't really need to wait for the official Paizo "word" on the matter... one that will likely never come.

Eh... In all seriousness I expect (if any answer) something about the same level as the response to asking about Azathoth's title of Daemon Sultan; No association what so ever.

I would be amused though if the Key had some connection to the Great Old Ones / Outer Gods, or if its purpose is to serve as some sort of card to play if someone manages to force Asmodeus into a corner. Maybe if he is Nyarlathotep (which stated earlier he isn't but otherwise connected.. heh..), then maybe there is something deeper there to him holding onto the key.

Why would there -need- to be a key anyways?

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