Animal companion main issue, dog is basically the best choice

[Dustyboy]

Yep I said it.

In the dnd world, most people understand social issues with playing an orc, but the issue of having a bear or lion as an animal companion is rarely brought up.

So I want to explain to you the main issue here

Animal companions are autonomous, you can command them but the dm plays them. This means that they are npcs

Now a tamed bear is still a bear , and there is definitely a big problem with walking into town having one.

First off its not gonna realistically be allowed in the Tavern or inn, the stable isn't outfitted for a bear, and letting it roam in a town is out of the question .

There's also the logistics of caging it, especially if you're a ranger or a druid who tends to value freedom

If you have a dog it can likely come into some businesses with you, even the most unruly dog is better received than the most obedient lion when off leash.

A horse can be hitched up to a post without worry that the town guard will shoves Spears into it in a panic.

Arguments for wolves are potentially viable but again I wouldn't leave it alone anywhere, there's definitely a farmer or hunter in town that knows what it is

Basically wolves and big cats are great stat wise, but they should hinder you in role play heavily.

Hell can you even get past a gate keeper with a bear?

There are numerous familiars that also follow this, but as they are small and intelligent they can be more easily concealed or "contained".. chances are your imp knows to stay in rat form and not cause massive havoc

[Nohwear]

Could the same not be said for any of the animal companions that an Urban Hunter is allowed to take?

[Rysky]

I have never been in a game were the GM, not the player, controlled the Animal Companion (or Eidolon. Or Phantom.).

[Galnörag]

Why in a world where the gods channel power into mortals, and mortals with study can wield nearly the power of the gods, and horrors beyond mention roam the wilds, would a well behaved bear upset the guards?

[Dustyboy]

Not familiar with the urban.bunter

And in the rules it explicitly states that an animal companion is a dms responsibility but the ranger or druid can issue it commands.

You can train a dog to surround yoir foe, but you can't train it to do a lot of things you see happen in campaigns, it's why the dm should control the animals and familiars

[Rysky]

They're very protective of their pick-a-nic baskets.

[Dustyboy]

Galnörag wrote:

Why in a world where the gods channel power into mortals, and mortals with study can wield nearly the power of the gods, and horrors beyond mention roam the wilds, would a well behaved bear upset the guards?

Because the guards are usually human warrior 1-5

Bears are f*+#ed up

[Galnörag]

Dustyboy wrote:

Galnörag wrote:

Why in a world where the gods channel power into mortals, and mortals with study can wield nearly the power of the gods, and horrors beyond mention roam the wilds, would a well behaved bear upset the guards?

Because the guards are usually human warrior 1-5

Bears are f~~%ed up

More than demihuman races?

More than a tiefling?

The world view and context we hold as normal doesn't apply in this campaign setting...

[Tammerine "Tammy" Dragontoe]

Tammy has a picnic basket, she wants a bear!

swats the Gnome hand trying to poke out the basket, ignores the weak plea for help coming from inside.

[Rysky]

And Actaully the rules for non-sapient Animal Companions it explicitly says "In general" and has a paragraph before that saying it varies by the situation and a paragraph after that says GM can deviate for any number of reasons and basically says it depends on the campaign, the GM, and the Player on who controls what.

[captain yesterday]

I let the player control it, I have enough things to occupy me with.

[Dustyboy]

I'd like to appeal to sensability, if anybody can simply raise a wolf or hyena as a pet, then why do dogs exist? Why have horses when bears are as easy to tame?

A commoner in pf is as potent as a commoner in real life. And quite frankly bears are a hard fight for three or less people

[Johnnycat93]

Commoners don't have animal companions. Anyone can feasibly use handle animal, but that does not an animal companion make.

Quote:

I'd like to appeal to sensability, if anybody can simply raise a wolf or hyena as a pet, then why do dogs exist? Why have horses when bears are as easy to tame?

Wolves and Hyenas are more difficult to train then dogs, and bears more difficult than horses.

[Nohwear]

It does seem irrational to be more fearful of a tame bear then a wizard. Then again, people are often irrational. I suppose a lot of it depends on how much time the characters spend in town and away from the adventure district.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Let's look at the iconics.

Seelah is wearing more armor than the town guards and is armed to the teeth. Ditto Imrijka.

Amiri has a weapon that left "overcompensating" behind a long time ago. Ditto Oloch.

Merisiel is wearing like a dozen daggers (and mythic version has something like 30? 40?).

And those are just the obvious ones. Rivani, for instance, is floating in her picture. Seoni, Seltyiel, Sajan, and Feiya look half-dressed in a world in which everything is trying to kill you. Amiri is a lovely combination of half-dressed (torso) and giant spiked armor (limbs).

As a town guard, given the choice between letting in pretty much any of the iconics or Adowyn and her wolf, honestly, I'd take the wolf.

[The Black Bard]

Day in the life of a city guardsman:

Three people walk up to the gate. Each is followed by a creature: a lion, a medium scorpion, and regular rat.

The guy with the lion looks respectable enough, a bit of a woodsman, but he hasn't got any sticks in his hair. He asks if he can come in; the guard eyeballs the lion and asks if it is trained. The man tells it to come, to sit, to roll over, and asks if the guard wants to rub his belly. The guard smiles, gives the big cat a pat, and lets them in.

The next man, with the scorpion, comes up. The guard asks him if he can control it. The man, a sun-weathered fellow with a wild look in his eyes, blinks at the guard like he doesn't understand, then says, "Control it? No. But I can get him to follow me, to defend me, and to back down in case of a misunderstanding."

The guard reaches into a box by the gate and hands a wooden medal to the man. "Its behavior is your responsibility. Keep this on it at all times, it lets the other guards know its not a summoned beast or such. If an incident occurs, they'll try not to kill it. Emphasis on try. Lets not let an incident happen, shall we?" The man nods, takes the medal and ties it to the scorpions tail, and they go through.

The last man, with the rat, is let through without even a comment, because the guard has no way of knowing the rat is a shapechanged imp familiar.

tldr: A D&D world that isn't incredibly new to things like animal companions and such will have come to understand and expect basic issues like this.

[Weirdo]

Bears, big cats, and such don't have to be as easy to tame as horses or dogs to still occasionally be found as tame pets.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

In some settings you could probably just put a dapper vest on your bear and people would ask if it could dance or wrestle.

Not to say you shouldn't ever have issues with an exotic animal companion, but I wouldn't expect it to be a serious problem in every town you visit.

[HyperMissingno]

Does nobody remember that there's a low level spell for this?

[Chengar Qordath]

captain yesterday wrote:

I let the player control it, I have enough things to occupy me with.

Likewise, so long as the player doesn't have them doing anything too crazy.Though I might toss out the occasional complication, like needing a handle animal check to keep your wolf well-behaved if you walk through a meat market.

[Ventnor]

Just be a Courtly Hunter from Ultimate Intrigue, and have your murderlion disguise itself as a harmless kitty cat.

[Rennaivx]

HyperMissingno wrote:

Does nobody remember that there's a low level spell for this?

Ventnor wrote:

Just be a Courtly Hunter from Ultimate Intrigue, and have your murderlion disguise itself as a harmless kitty cat.

Or use the spell harmless form.

[Jack of Dust]

Whether people get upset often depends on the setting. If characters with PC class levels are rare and people have little knowledge beyond the edge of their towns, then sure, people are probably going to be freaked out by the wolf wandering through town. If you're playing a high fantasy game where people with levels in hunters or druids or rangers aren't uncommon, then it seems reasonable for accommodations for bears/wolves to exist if they live in the area. It might be more expensive than your standard horse since it requires more skilled labour but it's reasonable for it to exist.

As others have noted, there are spells to solve this problem no matter what the case is. Plus the idea of people pokeballing animals is too amusing to pass up.

[BigNorseWolf]

This becomes moot once the t rex can eat the entire village before taking more than half its hitpoints in damage.

[Sundakan]

In Golarion, Ranger is fairly common as a class for people who aren't even adventurers if APs are any indication.

[blood_kite]

It will come down to what kind of game the GM wants to run.

I've used riding dogs for my druid companion because he was a Halfling and dogs never seem to get stopped at gates.

I've also played in Dark Sun, where 7 foot tall mantis men are allowed into cities and the guards have a specific introduction for them that helps translate their racial hierarchy structure into the city's structure.

Then their is my Venture Captain Deinonychus. His human companion has to remind him that town guards are not for eating, even though they move and it smells fear on them.

[Conan the Raptor]

Scaley high fi... crap our arms are too short.

Curses foiled again

[Kifaru]

I have an ape animal companion. Large size. Ten foot reach. Strength in the mid twenties. It could murder hobo an awful lot of commoners. His name is King. On the other hand, he is dressed in a flashy red and green entertainers outfit, complete with a shiny tiara. He knows the entertain trick and carries an entertainers kit. Anytime it looks like the locals are getting edgy, I have King put on a show. A little juggling and some acrobatics and the locals are put at ease.

[BretI]

Badgers are protected in Absalom -- it is illegal to kill one. In general, you should be able to bring your trained badger in to any bar there without causing a fuss. Provided you cleaned and groomed it, they might even allow it in the opera.

I guess that makes badger companions the best type.

[hiiamtom]

Dustyboy wrote:

I'd like to appeal to sensability, if anybody can simply raise a wolf or hyena as a pet, then why do dogs exist? Why have horses when bears are as easy to tame?

A commoner in pf is as potent as a commoner in real life. And quite frankly bears are a hard fight for three or less people

Dogs are bred from wild animals, and there is little to no reason to raise a wild dog over a domesticated one that has been bred for its intended purpose.

A horse is stronger, faster, and can carry more weight over a longer distance (depending on bear species). Horses also kill people, so why introduce a bear into that.

A pathfinder NPC has almost no relation to an average human IRL, and a black bear could probably eat an entire hamlet of 1st level commoners. Unless you mean bears in real life are hard to fight with three or less people... in which case I'm not even sure how to respond...

On top of all this, a camel is both acceptable in towns and one of the best animal companions in the game before pounce becomes a big issue - it's very strong, it's got a debuff, it's big enough to intimidate well, etc.

[Saldiven]

The OP raises relevant points, but they are ones that most players want hand-waived away so they can have the AC of their choice.

In application, it depends on the world in question. If the GM and players have embraced a full on Mos Eisley style world, then it might not be that odd to see a Dwarven Cavalier riding into town on the back of his battle-bear. People might look at Druid with his Anklyosaurus the same way people on earth would look at a guy walking his Neapolitan Mastiff.

If the world in question is on the other extreme, being more "Earthlike," then those more exotic companions would be viewed much less favorably. Some of the smaller and cuter ones would probably be well received as adorable curiosities, the middling ones like goats or pigs would be perceived as just weird, but the ones like bears and tigers would be absolutely alarming.

Literature has examples all over the spectrum. In the Assassin series by Robin Hobb, Fitz' companion is a wolf that often plays the part of a dog when around other people. Nighteyes still draws attention because, well, he's a wolf, but he's generally accepted as he is well behaved around people, and Fitz constantly reassures people that he's just "part wolf" or such. On the other end of the spectrum, in the Dragon Rider series by Anne McCaffrey, the Dragons were known and somewhat feared, but mostly respected (at least by the end of the series) and accepted.

[hiiamtom]

It's all moot because of carry companion anyways.

[Snowlilly]

I wonder if the guards are really going to try arresting an armored stegosaurus or t-rex?

I mean, it would make for an amusing argument, but I don't see it going very far.

[Saldiven]

Snowlilly wrote:

I wonder if the guards are really going to try arresting an armored stegosaurus or t-rex?

I mean, it would make for an amusing argument, but I don't see it going very far.

They might not try to arrest it, but they certainly might close and lock the gates when they see it coming.

[Weirdo]

Ventnor wrote:

Just be a Courtly Hunter from Ultimate Intrigue, and have your murderlion disguise itself as a harmless kitty cat.

Thanks for drawing my attention to that archetype - though it's worth noting it does lose the class's main combat buffs (for the hunter and their murderlion).

[swoosh]

Given how high magic Pathfinder is and how mystical the world is and how much esoterica exists in it, I don't see most animal companions really causing a problem.

Maybe plant companions or bigger dinosaurs or vermin, but nothing as mundane as a lion or bear.

[Saldiven]

swoosh wrote:

Given how high magic Pathfinder is and how mystical the world is and how much esoterica exists in it, I don't see most animal companions really causing a problem.

Maybe plant companions or bigger dinosaurs or vermin, but nothing as mundane as a lion or bear.

It depends on the nature of the campaign. Not every campaign uses everything in all the published material; even Pathfinder Society doesn't use everything.

In one campaign, such character/companion combinations might be common enough in the world to attract relatively little attention. In another campaign, they might be incredibly rare, exciting reactions from curiosity to fear.

[Fromper]

BretI wrote:

Badgers are protected in Absalom -- it is illegal to kill one. In general, you should be able to bring your trained badger in to any bar there without causing a fuss. Provided you cleaned and groomed it, they might even allow it in the opera.

I guess that makes badger companions the best type.

I did not know that. I actually know two people who have done badger companions in Pathfinder - one as a druid in PFS, and the other playing a ranger in my Rise of the Runelords campaign.

I still have yet to make a PC with an animal companion, oddly enough. I've got 21 PCs in Pathfinder Society, but no animal companions, spirits, or eidolons.

This is more surprising when you realize that I have two druids, and took domains on both. One's just pure caster focused, so I wanted the domain abilities and spells. The other has the monkey domain, so he has a monkey familiar instead of a larger, combat focused animal companion.

I also have a sorcerer and paladin with familiars (owl and thrush, for now, with upgrades planned for both when they hit level 7) and a couple of weaker PCs with mules to carry their non-combat gear, but that's it for my PCs with animals.

[Dave Justus]

While of course there is variance based upon campaign world, in any world in which the basic game rules are relatively unchanged it is hard to imagine an animal companion being that big of a deal, or at least not something that is commonly dealt with in some way.

I could certainly see a city that attempted to disarm people before entering, demanding weapons, spell component pouches, holy symbols etc be surrendered (although even that still leaves a lot of holes) not allowing an animal companion in, but such a place would probably have stables outside the protected area for such things.

In the game system there are too many abilities and powers, and animal companions and similar things too common for it to be considered more of a danger than any of the other murder hobos running around.

Pathfinder models a fantasy world where the fantastical is commonplace. An animal companion should fit in as well as just about anything else.

[doctor_wu]

I can see not allowing animal companions inside like the a ball full of aristocrats. Actually with carry companion couldn't you make the statue and then have the animal in the protected area. This would be a silly but memorable encounter with kingdom building rules.

Although with the animal soul feat this can be done to willing party members or npcs.

OR carry companion can result in like a dinosaur went missing from the zoo and be a macguffin. Unless it is something like a neighboorhood only going up a long step of stair which I don't think would happen without being pushed.

[Fromper]

doctor_wu wrote:

I can see not allowing animal companions inside like the a ball full of aristocrats.

There's one Pathfinder Society adventure where the mission is to sneak into an embassy, using a fancy party as cover.

One of the times I GMed that adventure, we had a druid bring along her elephant animal companion. Her excuse was, "But he's just a baby!" (low enough level to be medium sized).

The best part was that they actually hung colored streamers and stuff on the elephant, and pretended it was part of the entertainment. In order to avoid being spotted, everyone in the party had to make some sort of skill check to blend in, and they were allowed a certain number of failures before the guards were called. I ruled that the elephant counted as a party member that automatically failed its skill check, but gave the druid a bonus on a bluff check to pretend to be part of the entertainment.

[wraithstrike]

Dustyboy wrote:

Yep I said it.

In the dnd world, most people understand social issues with playing an orc, but the issue of having a bear or lion as an animal companion is rarely brought up.

So I want to explain to you the main issue here

Animal companions are autonomous, you can command them but the dm plays them. This means that they are npcs

Now a tamed bear is still a bear , and there is definitely a big problem with walking into town having one.

First off its not gonna realistically be allowed in the Tavern or inn, the stable isn't outfitted for a bear, and letting it roam in a town is out of the question .

There's also the logistics of caging it, especially if you're a ranger or a druid who tends to value freedom

If you have a dog it can likely come into some businesses with you, even the most unruly dog is better received than the most obedient lion when off leash.

A horse can be hitched up to a post without worry that the town guard will shoves Spears into it in a panic.

Arguments for wolves are potentially viable but again I wouldn't leave it alone anywhere, there's definitely a farmer or hunter in town that knows what it is

Basically wolves and big cats are great stat wise, but they should hinder you in role play heavily.

Hell can you even get past a gate keeper with a bear?

There are numerous familiars that also follow this, but as they are small and intelligent they can be more easily concealed or "contained".. chances are your imp knows to stay in rat form and not cause massive havoc

Your theory is only correct if the GM considers wild animals a problem in town. Many GM's don't care. You might even see Ogres(admittedly rare) in town assuming they behave. A tiger being controlled by a person is a different thing than a tiger running around on it's own.

Even in real life people doing tricks with wild animals don't often have a barrier between the entertainer and the audience, but few people would get that close if it was just some random <insert wild animal>.

Even if the GM is wary of certain animals how wary he is will be a factor. People do have pet wolves. I wouldn't do it, but in a place where you have druids, rangers, and so on it would be a more common occurrence.

However in actual gameplay and gameplay discussions, this has never been an issue.

PS: You can argue what "should" be included in RP, but that is really just your preference. There is no wrong way to play the game as long as the table is satisfied.

[Qaianna]

All that said, I can understand a constabulary worrying about wolves and bears and tigers ... after all, aren't there evil rangers and druids? 'Yeah, we know you lot can train a grizzly. See those bloodstains and the new graves we had to dig? Go on, guess what we heard the last ranger with a bear say when he tried to skip out on his bar tab.'

[Ashiel]

I'd like to go on record for saying that, factually, a trained herd animal is actually more dangerous in towns than a tiger. Their trample ability is pretty much an instant slaughter-action against a street full of commoners. Maybe we should discuss how oxen and such should be banned from towns, even though they're freely traded at like...what, 15 gp / ox?

Let's look at this from another angle. A fantasy world as framed within Pathfinder is not like ours. Even in relatively small settlements, magic items are traded, spellcasting services are available, people have strange and exotic creatures, some of which talk.

And let's be real. If you've got a group of armed individuals who actually have a pet tiger or something following them around, heeling, acting well behaved, and otherwise showing clear signs of domestication, are you - the little 1st level human warrior - really going to try to start a confrontation or just bear (no pun intended) it until the outsider leaves or causes trouble?

I mean really. These people are armed to the teeth and order around animals that could eat most people for breakfast. You do not want to start trouble if it doesn't need starting.

[Spider B8]

Bringing tigers into town? That's child's play. When you're riding a demon into town, now that's when you get the best reactions out of guards. They should thank you for the excitement!

[Snowlilly]

Fromper wrote:

doctor_wu wrote:

I can see not allowing animal companions inside like the a ball full of aristocrats.

There's one Pathfinder Society adventure where the mission is to sneak into an embassy, using a fancy party as cover.

One of the times I GMed that adventure, we had a druid bring along her elephant animal companion. Her excuse was, "But he's just a baby!" (low enough level to be medium sized).

The best part was that they actually hung colored streamers and stuff on the elephant, and pretended it was part of the entertainment. In order to avoid being spotted, everyone in the party had to make some sort of skill check to blend in, and they were allowed a certain number of failures before the guards were called. I ruled that the elephant counted as a party member that automatically failed its skill check, but gave the druid a bonus on a bluff check to pretend to be part of the entertainment.

I remember that scenario: my summoner went in without her pet dragon. Or her armor.

Having the trait princess was priceless that night, in a group where everyone else had dumped down to 7 cha and had not a single point in social skills.

[Rosc]

Snowlilly wrote:

I remember that scenario: my summoner went in without her pet dragon. Or her armor.

Having the trait princess was priceless that night, in a group where everyone else had dumped down to 7 cha and had not a single point in social skills.

That sounds awesome! I'd ask for more details, but I haven't played the scenario myself. Also, this is why I tend to put Diplomacy right up there with Perception when I build PFS characters. Both are equally important, but so few people incentivize being at least passable at Diplomacy.

[lemeres]

Galnörag wrote:

Why in a world where the gods channel power into mortals, and mortals with study can wield nearly the power of the gods, and horrors beyond mention roam the wilds, would a well behaved bear upset the guards?

Why in a world of nukes, machine guns, tanks, and jets would you not be allowed to take a lion into a kindergarten?

Face it- normal joe smo bar owner is probably not suited to take on a bear. Most people barely have weapons that go past "baseball bat to scare off a dumb robber or two". And even if the guards think they can take the bear, the is the idea "what if it eats a kid?".

Killing it after the fact doesn't keep the kid from dying. Resurrection magic might, but that is a like a $500,000 medical bill for most.

Anyway, back on topic. I would argue that a bird is a better animal companion. Similar reasons to the dog (ie- not that unusual, can be brought in doors, etc.), but it also flies. So grab a nice eagle or owl. The only legal trouble you might find is due to weird aristocratic laws about who can own what kind of bird (because status symbols). It suffices if you are just looking for something to flank with you. And if you a huntmaster cavalier, they are terrifyingly strong (since they can share in the challenge damage, and they have 3 natural attacks)

[Ashiel]

Not sure if you're aware, but there's not much difference between a large domesticated dog and a bear to commoner's in Pathfinder. Either one is capable of killing them without effort.

Seriously, look at the stats for a riding dog (which represents more or less any large domesticated breeed). They're murder machines. People today keep pet dogs that can seriously hurt, maim, and kill people with a single bite and walk around with the on a leash. In fact, a riding dog is as dangerous or even more dangerous than a 1st level druid's tiger animal companion.

[Manly-man teapot]

lemeres wrote:

Galnörag wrote:

Why in a world where the gods channel power into mortals, and mortals with study can wield nearly the power of the gods, and horrors beyond mention roam the wilds, would a well behaved bear upset the guards?

Why in a world of nukes, machine guns, tanks, and jets would you not be allowed to take a lion into a kindergarten?

You are making the wrong comparison. You, personally, didn't park you armed VTOL jet in the street. I, personally, am not known to have plenty of (and be willing to solve disputes with) nuclear weapons. Therefore, you and I are not allowed to bring our pet lions into the kindergarten.

[666bender]

Boars are my favorites. Accepted every where and powerful enough.