I'm playing in one game and running another, and each group has a (different) girl in it. In the shadowrun game I am running, the girl is very soft-spoken but we're all pals and hang out in other settings too. I suspect she's got some self-esteem issues that make her unwilling to take the reigns during roleplay and she tends to follow the lead of others in the group, but that doesn't have anything to do with her being a woman. She seems to enjoy it when she gets going though so I try to toss her a bone if she seems to be getting bored and plant an NPC that will engage her or that she would would be compelled to interact with.
The the pathfinder game I am playing in, the girl has a smaller degree of system mastery than myself or the GM, but she's not the only one. We advise/help when we can, but she's also like a little sister to me so I can't resist ribbing her a bit.
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So now I still play Pathfinder. I love Pathfinder. But I only invite people I feel comfortable playing with.
It sucks that you've had bad experiences. But this is just good advice in general for everyone. Gaming is a social activity and should generally not be undertaken with people you don't like and trust at least somewhat.
Honestly, much of that is pretty much expected behavior, especially the GM stuff. The specific player stuff is common, but pretty easy to call out.
'Expected' in the sense of happening, I suppose. I, for one, don't generally put up with that s!!#. Nor should other GMs. Seriously, call people out on bad behavior, folks.
The GM stuff though is trickier and subtler. There's a lot of research suggesting that's how men and women interact in mixed groups. Men talk over women more. Men interrupt women more. Men ignore women's contributions to the conversation - most blatantly to the point of dismissing an idea then praising it when a man restates it.
All of this without real intent or often even being aware of it. The studies often do things like record a meeting, ask the participants about it and then compare those responses with the actual record. Even the women usually overstated how much women had contributed and understated how much they were interrupted or dismissed.
This is absolutely true on a macro level. Our society is messed up and treats women pretty badly in a number of subtle ways, including this one. There've been full scientific studies proving it.
It's not inevitable on a micro level, though. An individual social group can break this pattern pretty readily if they choose to do so and work at it. I highly recommend doing so.
I'm not saying this to bash men or anything. We're trying to change centuries of socialization. It's really hard.
You probably do it. I do it, though I try to be aware and catch myself. And I'm in real life about as non-assertive and non-pushy as they come.
I think my mother (who is a deeply intimidating person, and has never taken s&+* like this lying down in her life) ensured I never developed this particular habit, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
But yeah, it's a pretty general societal issue and watching carefully to make sure you're not falling into this (or any other) bad pattern is probably a good plan. I try and check myself pretty regularly to avoid falling into bad habits in regards to social interaction in general, and so should everyone.
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I've long played in mixed groups, starting with a First Edition AD & D group that was half-female, I think. It's been so long, I don't remember- 1981.
I've played in mixed groups through 2003. The last time was a large Star Wars d20 group. The female left the group because she wasn't bothering to engage the referee or the other players except for her husband. She was bored and would do things like read a magazine during game time.
For me, gender doesn't matter. What's important to me is can the group member cooperate with the other players, can they follow Wheton's Law and are they willing to learn the system rules enough to be able to engage in the game session.
I've only had one sexist player that I can recall. For my current Pathfinder campaign, a new player said he would act sexist toward any girls in the group if there were any. I told him that behavior violated my house rules (Wheton's Law, basically)and he would not be allowed to join the group. He then said his character would be sexist, but he had never interacted with a female character when he was playing.
Ignoring the social analysis thing, this is my experience:
Of the 10~12 player I usually play with, only 2 are female....If we count PbP... That'd be one additional female and 4~5 additional males, so the proportion stays the same.
A few years ago I was in a group of 4 female and 3 males (myself included), but it disbanded after the campaign ended and the GM moved away. I have never again seeen a game where women make up the majority (or even half) of the group.
I don't remember any of the ladies being treated worse than any of the guys... If anything, the guys actually tried to be more polite when there was a gal around.
We once had to kick a girl from the group... But since we also had to boot 4~5 guys, even that remains proportional.
I guess TTRPGs tend to attract more more men than women.
My two current groups are:
5 guys
6 guys, 1 gal
Most of my experience has been gaming with guys, but in the occasions where women were involved, I didn't notice any poor behavior towards them.
In that second group I am a player, and upon joining the group had to agree to a code of conduct type thing that specifically called out "Female gamers will be treated with respect."
Seemed a bit overly antagonistic, but the lone female gamer appreciated it, so I imagine she's had some negative experiences with male gamers.
We have two in our group.
Also ran Carrion Crown as Harry Potter for fifth graders, 5 girls and one boy.
So, yes absolutely, more women are playing, and yes we absolutely need to embrace and welcome them. :-)
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One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
I'm running 2 groups:
1) 5 regular players, 3 female, 1 occasional extra female;
2) 2 regular players, 1 female
I play in 1 group:
3) 4 regular players, 2 female.
Of all those, 1 regular is a "girl", and our occasional player is a "girl" (and only 1 "boy" among the males). The rest of us are a little far on the dignified end of life to be flattered as "girl" or "boy".
My current weekly AP group has one woman (my wife), but we have a pretty diverse mix otherwise...
We have:
A gay guy,
A black guy,
A ginger (ugh, we know!),
A musician! (I know, right?)
and a cantankerous old fart... (that would be me)Now our PFS in this area seems to be about 70-30, but every now and again we get a lot more female players/GMs, but that tends to be because most of our female gamers either work or have school on our game days.
Your weekly AP group sounds pretty great! Which AP r u playing?
In college, the group I DM'ed was four women, three men.
These days, I run a game for three couples and my wife, so we've been 50/50 or greater since 1994!
I haven't played in a few years, but barring my high school group which was all males, my other groups tended to have at least one or two ladies mixed with the gents. Not quite 50/50 but a decent amount. Nowadays, were I to play I'd probably do a session with my wife, so there's at least one anyways.
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Sadly I tend to find that my gaming group has difficulty adjusting to female players. This is not due to overt sexism, but usually because the one woman in the group is outnumbered by the mass of desperate single men. Inevitably someone starts hitting on the "gamer chick" and someone else gets jealious and then they start quarrelling while the woman in the group gets weirded out and the other players gut irritated with the whole affair. It is a shame because I always welcomed a woman's perspective in these games.
This being said, I have seen three occasions where one player that is the opposite gender of the rest of the gaming group (twice with woman and once with a man) tries to use the gaming group as their personal harem. In two cases they were outright rejected, but the one case they succeeded it ripped the group apart and destroyed many of the friendships. This is also a shame for it casts such a pall on mixed gender groups.
Inevitably someone starts hitting on the "gamer chick" and someone else gets jealious and then they start quarrelling while the woman in the group gets weirded out and the other players gut irritated with the whole affair.
Yes, I noticed this when I/my group were in our teens or early 20s. Watching the South Park episode Bebe's Bewbs Destroy the Universe is a pretty good example.
I feel like this is probably just my experience and not transcendent, but it seems like it's become girl-friendlier in the last decade and a half. So to speak. I last played in a group sans ladies back in high school, in the 90s. Though, even then, we had a girl who played with us on occasion. That was one of our player's girlfriends. We were totally open to girls' playing in our games, but there weren't a lot of girls who wanted to play in our game. That we could find.
In college, mid-Aughts, I was part of another group that was consistently 40% female or better female. We never had problems. I guess because we're decent people.
Since I came back to gaming in the last couple years it's been with groups that are half or better female. Had a female DM! She was a blast. It's been a blast. Being married, my wife and I game with other couples, often. I imagine that makes for a much better dynamic than being a single woman at a table, though. Men can be pigs and all. But that's true in any social situation. And women can be awful, too. Indeed, our biggest problems with groups have never been matters of gender or creed or orientation or race or whatever; we've just met lousy people along the way. That happens. But even that's been rare. I guess if you try to act decent you mostly fall in with decent people. Or maybe my groups have been lucky. I'unno.
I barely can fathom an all-male game at this point, though I do play in a currently all-guy campaign, online, with some high-school buddies. There're just naturally ladies around, wanting to play, everywhere I turn these days. And that's fine. It seems like it's more than it used to be, but, again, that just could be my point of reference. I wonder. And, really, could be my point of reference now, too!
tl;dr I don't know.
One of the things I've enjoyed but been surprised about, is how its not an issue being a girl in a RPG gaming group. Most times I'm the only girl in the group but no-one has batted an eyelid.
I know RPG playing is very much seen as a geeky guy thing but I think more women are giving it a go.
Quick survey... who here has a girl in their group... and is she treated with the respect she unquestionably deserves!! ;))
In my groups we have girls in every one of them and in two of them the girls actually outnumber the guys. It has been years since I've seen a guy give a girl a hard time at a gaming table and I've been playing pen and paper RPGs since the mid 1980's.
Since I've been married for 22 years to a gamer, I can't remember the last time I played at a table that didn't have any women in attendance. Usually it's gone well. I had to kick a player out of my game a decade or so ago for being mean to my wife, but he was really the only one. Since our daughter turned 8 or 9, she's been at most of the games we play, and we tend to play with other couples. Nobody hits on anybody and people are generally respectful. One man in our group always tries to tell one of the women in the group the answer to the math before she can say it to the GM, but since she's one of the smartest people I've met, I know she's doing it slowly on purpose to agitate him. And my current character in a pirate campaign is disrespectful to her character (and my wife's) but we make it clear that it's in game and my character is being a tool. Stuff like "Hey, baby, what do you say? I've got a 20 Charisma. Unbuffed!"
I was with a gaming group for over ten years that had a woman as the GM, and we had a couple of other woman join the group here and there, but mostly the players were all guys.
Since I've left that group about 6-7 years ago, I've run my own group. My wife plays occasionally, and for a while we had another woman playing. She ended up dating one of the players (they were both friends before they started gaming with me anyways). When they broke up, she left the group.
But even back in high school (mid-late 90s), we had girls join our D&D games. I'm not in touch with most of the friends I had in high school, but occasionally I see some of them, and the girls who played back then still play today - albeit different RPG games. Still, it's tabletop.
Even when I have joined random games either back in college or through a meetup or at the local comic shop's PFS game, there's almost always at least one woman gaming.
Pretty much my entire gaming hobby has had woman sharing the hobby.
In fact, it's been more rare to have an entire male group. Maybe back in Jr high school, and then while I was in the army (no women in our unit - but even then one of the player's wife joined as soon as she moved in country), and then for a few months on a random game I joined, and now at my home table ever since our last player left (and on the sessions that my wife doesn't play).
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I just remembered that when I first began playing D&D back in 1985 there was a woman who played in our group. She was an awesome player...until her sorority made her quit gaming. I'm serious. She came to us in tears at our Saturday morning session and handed the DM her character sheet and explained what was happening. We never saw her again.
When I was at Rutgers in the early 80's there were two types of gaming groups.
Group 1. was the RPGA club that would have Saturday sessions at Ballantine Hall. They were exclusively male attended. The bulk of the students there were hard science, history, and engineering types who played D+D almost exclusively or other number and mechanics heavy games like Hero, RuneQuest,or Rifts.
Group 2 were the groups that would form up at the Demarest Residence Hall that was specfically devoted to creative and literature types,none of whom were RPGA members or part of the convention set. The gender split among the roleplaying groups there was about 50/50. Many of them also played rules lighter games such as Storyteller or Villains and Vigilantes.
The only girl in my gaming group is my girlfriend, but she plays pretty much everything we play and has delved into the hobby with gusto. I know a few other girls who do play, just not with me personally. Unfortunately, the only time I really played with a group with a lot of girls in it was when most of the people were newbies, and not really all that interested in playing the game. They spent more time talking to each other/browsing Tumblr/generally just being disruptive. The game pretty quickly fell apart, and we moved on to something else with more experienced players.
My tables treat women just the same as men, I'd say. My girlfriend enjoys being at the table, and we don't make any jokes involving her/her character we wouldn't make about anyone else there. Other girls I know who play have had... less luck with that, unfortunately, but that isn't my table so there isn't a lot I could do about it. I'd invite them to my own, but my players are 11th level and more than halfway through a custom campaign that started at level 3, and there's six of them. It wouldn't work out well.
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Back in college I played in a group where I was the only male player. Currently I am GMing a group with two women, and another for my niece and nephew where there are three girls to one boy.
FYI, those little girls are vicious. One is a dwarf with a penchant for blunt trauma to anything with a visible head, and my niece runs a druid with a (in her words) bloodstained white kitty of doom.
Where the hell were these girls when I was twelve?
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Your weekly AP group sounds pretty great! Which AP r u playing?My current weekly AP group has one woman (my wife), but we have a pretty diverse mix otherwise...
We have:
A gay guy,
A black guy,
A ginger (ugh, we know!),
A musician! (I know, right?)
and a cantankerous old fart... (that would be me)Now our PFS in this area seems to be about 70-30, but every now and again we get a lot more female players/GMs, but that tends to be because most of our female gamers either work or have school on our game days.
It is a great group of players... and all of the members of the group are either regular or part time PFS GMs, so it is a lot of game knowledge in there.
We are currently finishing up book 3 of Skull and Shackles.
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My main group has just three guys in it, counting myself.
Oh, wait, am I supposed to be exclaiming about how abnormal it is to have "a" girl in one's group? The sooner we accept it as a normal thing rather than something to take note of, the more common it will become. Because I don't think any players really like being seen as weird bugs in the big ol' relatively inclusive jar that is the gaming community. :P
I only play on these forums these days, so I can say, unequivocally that all my players are
Ducks
Quack?
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My first group was played with two friends (wife and husband pair).
My second group was a 2/2 split male and female.
My NEXT group was 2 female, 4 male.
My Longest Running Group Ever (TM) was 3 female 2 male
And my current groups are 2 male 1 female and 2/2 split
Of my various groups we've played with poly folks, gay couples, straight couples, trans individuals... I've really been blessed in the diversity of players we've had! My entire gaming life has been played with and around all walks. I was introduced to the game by a female friend. I'm currently lucky enough that one of my players (and oft-co-GM) is my wife and we've been playing together for.... 6 or 7 years now. I'd not change a thing!
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As long as they aren't stinkin' fake gamer geese...
My main group has just three guys in it, counting myself.
Oh, wait, am I supposed to be exclaiming about how abnormal it is to have "a" girl in one's group? The sooner we accept it as a normal thing rather than something to take note of, the more common it will become. Because I don't think any players really like being seen as weird bugs in the big ol' relatively inclusive jar that is the gaming community. :P
This.
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My main group has just three guys in it, counting myself.
Oh, wait, am I supposed to be exclaiming about how abnormal it is to have "a" girl in one's group? The sooner we accept it as a normal thing rather than something to take note of, the more common it will become. Because I don't think any players really like being seen as weird bugs in the big ol' relatively inclusive jar that is the gaming community. :P
I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing an aspect of reality.
When we say that there are fewer women than men playing RPG, it's because... Well... There are. Sure, we should respect everyone equally, but there is nothing wrong with acknowleging an statistical fact.
The OP asked if people had women in their gaming groups and whether or not they were treated witb respect, so people answered.
Nothing about it is treating women as "weird bugs".
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You must transcend your gender coil to play at my table.
But seriously I've found girl are way better at dealing with roleplay situations, the Y chromosomed players tend to deal with talkative NPCs in a more... assertive fashion where as girl players actually bother with problem solving and long term development. Also less fart jokes. And farts.
yep, we've got female gamers in our group. We started out with 2 (out of 7), went up to 3/7 and now down to 1/5.
*RAISES HAND*
Gamer girl right here! I was a part of a group for a good 12 1/2 years before life forced it to disband.
Apart from me picking up more sailor-vernacular than is probably considered couth for a young lady to know, I don't really feel like it was a super big deal for any party involved.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, apart from some juvenile delinquents with an IQ lower than the average bacteria on Call of Duty, my gaming experience has been rather typical and has had no stand-out moments of "OMG, GRAB THE TORCH! LET'S BURN THE WITCH!".
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I've enjoyed gaming with women over the years. Adds diversity to problem solving, and is almost always a good learning experience.
I do not enjoy gaming with girls, but that is probably an age difference thing.
Basically, in my experience the ratio of bad:good players seems pretty much the same between the sexes.
It might just seem elevated either due to a larger sample category (in the case of men) or too small of a sample category (in the case of women?)
The best GMs I've had have been women. Whether in Pathfinder or other settings, women GMs have been far more 'on-task' than men, based on experience.
There was one woman GM that ran an exceptionally intense version of The Confirmation after we bombed certain rolls at a point, still sticks in my head as the 'best' run I've been through so far, and I count the time I've GM'd it.
I'm running too many games right now, but the ratios are encouraging!
- Force & Destiny with six players, two of whom are women.
- 5th Ed (Princes of the Apocalypse) with six players, three of whom are women.
- 5th Ed (Out of the Abyss) with three players, two of whom are women.
- Pathfinder (Curse of the Crimson Throne) with four players, all of whom are women.
I also run games for kids at work. I'm an assistant director for a YMCA after school program, and the director and I (he's a player in one of those games) have instituted a board game/geek club there. He runs d6 Star Wars, and I run Pathfinder. I'm running two games there, and while the player roster is usually in flux, I have a group of 4th and 5th grade girls that are totally dedicated to the hobby now.
I make it a point to invite women to my games and ensure that my games are a safe space for all players. One thing I've been consciously doing is changing some of descriptors in Curse of the Crimson Throne; anybody else notice that almost every named female NPC in that game is described as "haggard, but attractive," "hauntingly beautiful," etc.?
Probably 75% of the gaming groups that I have played in have had women in them, from the time I was 15 (that being the first time I played in a group that wasn't entirely guys) until the present day.
In each case, they were treated no different than any other players. These days, my main group has two women in it, my wife, and another player's sister. Both of them are treated respectfully by all.
I enjoy having them both as players, especially when particularly disturbing room descriptions are given. Love the reactions. I know its a good night if I get an "Ugh" from one (or both) of them. :-D
Also love it when either of them crits. Little celebrations always follow.
I have always played in a balanced (or female-dominant) gaming group. I never even think about it anymore, but looking back to my youth (2nd edition D & D in the late 80's!), the perception of girl/women gamers seemed much different then. I guess I would compare it to females reading comic books or loving fantasy films; of course we were all out there, but society kinda made it seem like we weren't, or that there was something strange about us. Anyway, that perception seems to be significantly diminished in this generation. Thankfully.
As for me, I was always the one running the game, so I got to create the scenarios, storylines, NPCs, etc. and the players just had to deal with it! If anyone wanted a male-dominated, stereotypical gaming experience, they usually did not stick around long.
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I'm a woman and I've been playing Pathfinder for probably about eight-nine years or so, and 3.5 for a little while before that, though I only started GMing in the last couple years. My groups have generally been relatively balanced, though at the moment I'm the only female player in a couple of my games. I haven't really had bad experiences, but I also only play with friends. I'm a little hesitant to play with people I don't know for fear of running across jerks, though I've just moved to a new area, so after some of my Skype games wrap up, I might have to start. I don't have much patience for the "whoaaaaa a lady gamer!" attitude, so I probably wouldn't play with anyone like that.
The main issue I've had is with less overt stuff and more subtle comments that the person in question probably didn't consider the implications of. It's less "ugh women can't game" and more "the entirety of this town's guard is male for some reason" or "here's a typical fantasy brothel with only female workers." It's the kind of thing that's really easy to miss if you're a cis guy. I don't ascribe any ill intent to it, but I do usually point it out so people can think about it and learn from it.
On an institutional level, I think Paizo puts a lot of effort into encouraging a community that includes all genders/races/orientations/etc., and it really does help (switching the pronouns around in their books, for example). The first time I read "she" referring to a GM in a published product, I had a bit of a giddy moment. No accounting for individual jerkiness, of course, but I find that people with good intentions will be less unthinkingly sexist when it isn't hard-coded into the material you're working with.
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Where the hell were these girls when I was twelve?
Ostracized by playing "a boy's game" by their peers, or not allowed to play by the boys until they met some arbitrary moving goal post for participation?