| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are talking a hypothetical of a fictional character bound to and able to use the rules of his system, being in our world and taking it over, then of course the easiest way to dominate a Paizo Developer and issue an errata or FAQ clarification.
The wizard would probably have to suffer through a lot of complaints about caster-martial disparity though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno if a high level wizard could rule the world, but watching the powers that be go through figuring out what this dude is actually capable of would be entertaining.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I still would say our technology in the real world is far higher and better (and if you account for accuracy of some of our soldiers and such, we already have 30th - 40th levels anyways according to BAB).
In Pathfinder's fake world which just happens to be called Earth, we already have a little basis on what they've already provided us.
In their pretend world, they had a high level spellcaster (not a wizard though, an Oracle if I remember) called Rasputin (lvl 17) which, though evil, had not taken over the entire world.
Hence, based on that, I'd say the wizard would have to be at least 18th level or greater in Pathfinder's Earth by their rules.
Officially I don't think he controlled the world.
Which would indicate, even in their fake Earth, it's a little harder to control than simply being a high level wizard.
It could be in their world, there are OTHER spellcasters that are high level residing there that most don't know or realize (for example, maybe Harry Houdini utilized REAL magic in their world, and Merlin exists until he frees himself...etc0.
I imagine that the key problem with taking over the world is how much time and energy is needed to maintain that control.
I can smash an ant with my foot easily, but I may be unable to fully keep out ant colonies in my lawn.
Too many little people doing their own thing contrary to your desires. They are too insignificant to track down each personally, and even if you wipe out one base of resistance, others spring up while you weren't looking. This is aprticularly true for a spellcaster in this system, since there is a limit to how many spells they have a day. Not enough to handle billions.
World domination is a fool's errand. It just takes too much time and energy. Just take over some small European nation, and just sit back in the lap of luxury. Hell, that is probably half the reason why no wizard ever took over Golarion- it was just too much trouble. Just pull a Geb or a Nex instead, and just crush anyone in the immediate area that dares to mess with you. Only grab the bits of the world you have a particular need for.
We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.
My guess is 11.
After reading this thread, I'm going to update my guess to 20, and say it can be done, guaranteed, in a ten-year time frame.
There are several key things:
- First of all, his magic works. The question is lame if it does not. The exception is the aforementioned calling spells, such as planar binding and planar ally, because they would make it trivial.
- Our armaments are able to penetrate almost any protection he can throw up. Military conquest is impossible for our wizard friend.
- We will assume that we can figure out how to Detect Magic with our current technology as soon as we are aware of our wizard friend's existence.
So, he has several challenges:
- A solo conquest is not viable.
- He has a limited supply of spells in his book. For a rather significant cost, he can learn more.
- Once he is out of any resources he brings over, he must gather significant finances or steal for rare components such as gold or diamond.
- A unit or two of soldiers can, assuming they hit him, shred his defenses in a matter of seconds.
- Heavy armaments can breach any protections he may have. Likely only Force and Prismatic barriers can withstand nuclear weapons and even the more powerful heavy ordinances we possess.
---------
As an arcane caster, he must have a way to not need the divine restoration that might be granted by a cleric in his home world.
I would propose the following solution:
20th Level Conjuration (Teleportation) Elf Wizard opposing Evocation
Venerable Lich who has used shenanigans to have a secure Profane Gift, so a total int of ~40
Key Feats: Augment Summons, Extend Spell, Opposition Research, Craft Wondrous Items, Expanded Summon Monster (for the phenomenally strong storm giant), False Focus, Breadth of Experience
Key Items: a couple tuning forks for creating demiplanes, headband of intellect +6, greater hat of disguise, blessed books, pages with secret page cast multiple times for unlimited spell book backups, metamagic gems, etc
The conjurer capstone allows him to have a permanent summon. This lets him Magic Jar a summoned storm giant (strength of 39+4) and take his time using its staggering strength to Blood Money any spell with component costs of 21k GP or less. If necessary, form of the dragon III can grant him a further +10 to strength while maintaining casting, for a total strength of 53 allowing blood money for any spell with component costs of 26k or less, which includes Wish.
He will bring 3 or 4 full blessed books over with him, along with some Secret Page abuse to have basically all non-terrible spells transcribed.
From there, he can create simulacra of himself or any creature he knows of with up to 52 hit dice, free of charge, roughly 1/day. His extended dominations last for almost two months, and his extended unconscious agendas last for almost a year. It is trivial for him to acquire history books and textbooks and update himself on modern science and history, thanks to his staggering intellect. He will then, through a mixture of charms, simulacra, and divination, make a killing on the stock market and infiltrate influential information-controlling companies and governments.
From there, he simply dominates the leaders of the superpowers into forming a global coalition and conquering the smaller nations who refuse to join (most will not refuse, thanks to the lich's influence). Through his control over key social media and information businesses, he can influence the general populace into going along with the idea.
Any individuals who resist will simply be Wished to death from the security of his home plane.
Simulacra of himself work wonderfully for keeping the populace in line with well-placed Dominates.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also keep in mind that charmed/dominated people are obviously compromised - it's only a DC 25 or 15 sense motive for a complete stranger to realize something is wrong with the victim.
A wizard going the mind-control route would be raising red flags very quickly.
AS for current firearms --
Well, keep in mind that the "modern" firearms in Ultimate Combat are actually Civil War (1860's) tech.
I'd expect current era firearms to potentially be much, much deadlier.
(Also, keep in mind troop rules applied to modern soldiers. A troop of veteran soldiers with WWI gear is CR 11. A troop of modern elite soldiers with modern gear may clock in at CR 20 or higher.)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In Reign of Winter a pretty standard unit of World War I era soldiers is a threat to the PCs, who are in the low-ish double digits for level at that point. The rules for automatic weapons fire are also really unpleasant for Wizards since they ignore miss chances and mirror images.
Frankly, the Wizard can't manage a personal conquest with brute force tactics (including mind control for Sense Motive reasons as noted above). Planar Binding and Simulacrum shenanigans might well work, and anyone who can manage Wish can almost certainly figure something out...but it'll need to be clever and indirect.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, the easiest brute force solution involves the wizard having a super lenient GM who allows him to abuse simulacrums to get infinite wishes for infinite simulacrums so that he can crap forth a billion Cthulhus or whatever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly? I'd expect general human society to react to an actual wizard with absolute hostility.
Even if the wizard tries to rise by peaceful means, folks are still going to try to kill him just for the sake of killing him.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And who exactly is doing this killing? Are you? Would anyone you know suddenly murder another sentient person because they are using magic?
What kind of sense does that make?
Very little.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. People get killed for less logical reasons than that every day. They get killed for race, religion, sexuality, gender identity, and a hundred other reasons. I find this fact abhorrent, but if people found out someone existed with vast magical powers (ie: something different from the norm and scary to bot)? Somebody would get upset and try and kill them. Most likely a lot of somebodies.
Now, that doesn't mean a wizard couldn't assimilate and achieve power 'legitimately', I'd expect them to do exactly that in fact, but I'd expect them to do it while keeping their magic a secret.
OK, you can't just say people will kill a wizard. That's not reality, and boiling human behavior down to "thing scary murder it" is typically the reverse of standard human reactions.
The money to be made on a wizard alone means the wizard is more likely to be a celebrity than have to worry about fighting armies of crazed lunatics. Even if the wizard is dumped into the worst parts of the world they have the tools to escape and get somewhere safe. They are not exactly children in a warzone.
Certainly true. He mostly has a problem if he tries to gain influence through directly hostile means. IE- teleporting into the white house and shooting off fire balls.
In that case, a lot of people would hate him on principal, cause AMURICA (ie- flared up sense of nationalism). And even the countries that hate America might question "what if he aims for me next?"- even cooperating doesn't necessarily prevent betrayal when the guy is a living arsenal.
Pretty much any significant display of force would get a lot of powerful countries to make contingency plans based off of the idea that they need to kill the guy. The classic "batman has plans in case super man goes all '1960's comics' level of crazy".
So just sitting back and pumping out magic items for millions of dollars each is more likely to get a warm reception.
The ease of money from item crafting is another major reason why wizards haven't just completely taken over Golarion- most wizards probably quit studying right after they get the small amount of power needed to do crafting. Thus, very few bother getting enough power to act on a national scale. Again- world domination is a losing game, since there are so many other ways to get VERY comfortable. It isn't too hard to take care of one person's personal interests.
World domination only becomes an option when you have enough people on your side that their interests require the resources of an entire world. The classic devil army, or the aliens from independence day who wanted to use the earth for raw materials.
And who exactly is doing this killing? Are you? Would anyone you know suddenly murder another sentient person because they are using magic?
What kind of sense does that make?
Very little.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. People get killed for less logical reasons than that every day. They get killed for race, religion, sexuality, gender identity, and a hundred other reasons. I find this fact abhorrent, but if people found out someone existed with vast magical powers (ie: something different from the norm and scary to bot)? Somebody would get upset and try and kill them. Most likely a lot of somebodies.
Now, that doesn't mean a wizard couldn't assimilate and achieve power 'legitimately', I'd expect them to do exactly that in fact, but I'd expect them to do it while keeping their magic a secret.
They probably would keep it a secret, and as I and someone else mentioned, I think being a lich is the way to go for this - keep your phylactery in a permanent demiplane, and you're 100% safe.
Even if someone does manage to kill you, you reform a few days later.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Divination is the key to it. You can make stupid amounts of money on the stock markets, blackmail politicians into resigning or supporting you, hack into computers because passwords are rubbish and generally know what people are planning to do before they do.
Then you just set up a tech company that seems to make money hand over fist and send your orbital mind control lasers into space.
Elon Musk. That's not an Earth name, is it?
OK, you can't just say people will kill a wizard. That's not reality, and boiling human behavior down to "thing scary murder it" is typically the reverse of standard human reactions.
The money to be made on a wizard alone means the wizard is more likely to be a celebrity than have to worry about fighting armies of crazed lunatics. Even if the wizard is dumped into the worst parts of the world they have the tools to escape and get somewhere safe. They are not exactly children in a warzone.
People kill abortion doctors...you think they wont kill a LITERAL witch with powers from the devil?
Where is Razmir statted up at, or where does it say what his levels are?Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local
We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.
My guess is 11.
By himself it wouldn't be possible. AT ALL. He would need several things.
1. Knowledge. Our world is tremendously different from Golarion in the way things work. Ready access to rapid communication and travel is common to a degree that's not imaginable.
2. An organisation. The world is a really BIG place. Razmir, possibly THE most powerful living wizard in Golarion today hasn't even managed to conquer all of Golarion yet which is a much smaller place in population and the number of countries involved... In fact, he's only got one small piece of the entire Inner Sea region. And he HAS an organisation to boot. An empire ruled by one man is pretty much limited to what that one man can immediately grasp and personally control... which isn't that much at a time, no matter how powerful you are.
3. Capable henchmen. Which is what Razmir really dosen't seem to have... He has minions and spellcasters but no real Number 2 types. And these would have to be native henchmen...who know how things work.
4. Time. Rome wasn't built in a day... and what you're talking about is a couple of of orders of magnitude of what Rome ruled on it's best days.
He's not statted up, but he is listed in Inner Sea Magic as Wizard(19?) This dates from back in the day where there wasn't much available beyond the Advanced Player's Guide.
People kill abortion doctors...you think they wont kill a LITERAL witch with powers from the devil?No, a wizard isn't going to be one of the 4 people that have died in the past decade from anti-abortion terrorism. A lone assassin has literally no chance against a wizard who can take a number of gunshots before dying and can block the bullet after the first shot. A (homemade) bomb won't kill a wizard right away.
And that is still a major assumption that people suddenly decide to declare a wizard purge and try to take them out. Seriously, how are you all convinced the world is so much more dangerous than it is?
You are not as informed as you seem to think on this subject. The western world doesn't have these behaviors because no one actually BELIEVES in witchcraft anymore, not because they've somehow evolved out of it. Abrahamic religions are no friend to spell casting and we have a lot of them in europe and the americas.
And you're behaving like people, when confronted with actual supernatural powers wont react in a similar fashion.
I dunno if a high level wizard could rule the world, but watching the powers that be go through figuring out what this dude is actually capable of would be entertaining.
Controlling entire worlds is something Arkalion is capable of, but refrains from doing since he only really cares about making sure absolutely no souls get to the afterlife (for their own good, the afterlife in PF is terrifying).
But he would absolutely be able to crush any and all resistance our Earth could provide. Honestly, it's unlikely any possible resistance would register as more then a slight annoyance. Especially since without access to other planes, the most Earth would be capable of is killing his astral projection.. Which is just an inconvenience really.
The lowest level though I'd say a Wizard could beat Earth with certainty though is 11. Planar Binding opens up a lot of very very powerful options. A clever and careful Wizard could certainly do it much sooner, but to be certain of victory, I'd say 11th level is about right.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If he acts intelligently, a high level wizard is pretty much unkillable.
Between Simulacra and Magic Jar he just makes sure that nobody ever knows where he actually is (which is probably on another plane) or even WHO he is. Even assuming that the various intelligence agencies eventually figure out that he is using magic and even figure out roughly what he is doing (ie, magic jar) how are they going to track the REAL him down?
Limited Wish or Wish gives him access to all the clerical spells that he needs to maintain his health.
A low level wizard could be a massively influential wealthy power behind the throne type with simple spells. A high level wizard could take over the world in reasonably short order.
Especially since without access to other planes, the most Earth would be capable of is killing his astral projection.. Which is just an inconvenience really.
Of note, I believe with the current rule (you can only go to planes you created), Astral Projection would not work. So just be a lich.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All he needs is an army of incorporeal undead, pretty sure we don't have any magic weapons on earth.
As a note- how well would a core wizard perform?
This is an honest question. Everything that releases spells boosts the wizard. And as well as a lot of things that were never intended to boost the wizard (- I am going to assume that wasn't meant to be a character option...not bothering to dissect the CR 18 stat block, so I am just going to assume this is a pun pun thing)
So how far can he get with core only options? Wish might have some fruit...for a while (I mean....25,000 gp diamonds. I doubt you can find too many, at least not enough for continued war against an entire world).
As a note- how well would a core wizard perform?
This is an honest question. Everything that releases spells boosts the wizard. And as well as a lot of things that were never intended to boost the wizard (- I am going to assume that wasn't meant to be a character option...not bothering to dissect the CR 18 stat block, so I am just going to assume this is a pun pun thing)
So how far can he get with core only options? Wish might have some fruit...for a while (I mean....25,000 gp diamonds. I doubt you can find too many, at least not enough for continued war against an entire world).
The zygomind is a goofy (if really freakin' cool) critter that no wizard should ever be messing with, other than to kill it with extreme prejudice from over 300 feet away. It's a joke answer.
Core-only options yield the easiest and most straight-forward paths to wizard total world domination.
Yeah, the easiest brute force solution involves the wizard having a super lenient GM who allows him to abuse simulacrums to get infinite wishes for infinite simulacrums so that he can crap forth a billion Cthulhus or whatever.
This really is the key - even though Cthulu isn't an actual Core wizard option, an efreeti-binding wizard with simulacra is an option. A strictly Core RAW wizard would just win.
He lacks several options for immortality... but he still has no few options at his beck and call.
That said, we've already put several severe limitations on the guy.
We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.
So he can't use power number one (call powerful creatures) or power number two (planar travel to recruit armies or go back to Golarion or whatever), so that instantly limits his options.
That said... it really doesn't matter.
Simulacrum is a thing. It is the great equalizer. The wizard needs more fanatics? Simulacrum. The wizard needs a bigger army? Simulacrum. The wizard needs more himself? Simulacrum.
"But... infinite money!" I hear you say. Still doable, though more difficult.
The reason it's hard to pin a specific level of wizard down is because he's literally being handicapped from the beginning.
Possibly the largest hurdle that could be overcome is the wizard acquiring an item that can fabricate at will. While this may seem relatively mundane, by following the hard magic item creation rules, it's indicated that such an item would be priced based on the amount of material component that was paid for (see footnotes 2 and 4): basically, the wizard would spend as much as he possibly could, and then he wouldn't really have to worry about money anymore as he could belch out 1/100th of that expenditure at-will.
This has the obvious in-world benefit of literally defying entropy and controlling deflation/inflation, but it also has the ability to allow him to bypass cost-restrictions, as he can just manufacture actual gold pieces on command with no limit.
Now, bear in mind, that is a permissive reading - but it's also the only reading that doesn't presume an omnipotent narrator stepping in and placing (well-reasoned, but actively chosen) limits.
At that point, the only question is when will said wizard manage to acquire immortality, not if*.
*
Once he achieves immortality, that's basically it: it's over, finished, kaput. The dude(ette) has won.
The reason is that with immortality and infinite gold, he can have armies of simulacra creating armies of simulacra creating armies of simulacra. And so on.
All the questions of numbers and power limits just... vanish.
But the strict limiter, is time, and resources.
You'll also note that the wizard relies on simulacrum and fabricate.
Even if you remove that (Core) option, there are still ways - they're just much harder, and slower. You have to actually bother working at making money and recruiting people instead of just making as many of whatever you want.
But by that point, you're banning half of one spell school, and two other spells... you may as well just ban crafting while you're at it. And without conjuration's most powerful aspects, crafting, simulacra, or fabricate... it's not really possible with a Core-only wizard. I mean, it might be possible. It's just excessively unlikely.
Might as well be a bard with a super-high bluff, diplomacy, glibness and similar effects. You'll probably be better off in the long-run. (Or a sorcerer. You'd be a little less powerful, but, you know, you'd have cool things and lots of charisma.)
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1am, yawns, wakes up...
Casts disguise self, walks to the street corner, breaks window, smiles to cameras with the mug of Justin Bieber, takes jewels from display, goes to pawn shop, sells them. Casts charm person on pawn shop guy, or not, "hey man, I need to borrow your car for the night... i have a hot date I can't miss.. I'll bring you her underpants and you can put them on eBay or something" ... "of course buddy, take my keys, car is around the corner!" Walks out of pawn shop, drives to vegas... ALL HELL BREAKS LOSE! :)
Day n+1... Add a rat familiar, cast invisibility on it, enter bank - "Squeaky, you go in open vault, hide behind a bag of money, and wait there." After bank closes, cast disguise self, dimension door to meet the familiar in there, smile to cameras with the face of Kim Kardashian, then fill bag of holding. Repeat until you have a nice big mansion and enough dividend income to run everything in cruise control... :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What level would a fighter need to be to conquer our Earth?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe you are simply asking what spells would be needed by a wizard to conquer the world.
Wealth, contacts, information, desire, charisma. Those are the base requirements of normal people to acquire meaningful political power. The ability to wade into combat may prove useful, yet such power will not control nations by yourself.
The truly crafty, patient, and motivated wizards will keep their megalomania in check long enough to learn the technologist feat, as well as the basics of our world.
From there, who knows? A good many tyrants didn't start with wealth and power, they gained a following and pressed opportunities. We only know of the success stories, who knows how many potential tyrants met an early end before their plans could come to fruition?
Divination, enchantment, and illusion spells of any level would be force multipliers for the canny, charismatic wizard. If an ambitious wizard of greater than 10th level can't manage to control a small corporation or country, you have the wrong wizard. A lucky first level wizard with divination and enchantment magic could do anything a normal tyrant has done.
Unfortunately, that feat selection would need a GM to be more permissive than currently written. I would have no problem with this, buuuu~uuuut... it could cause issues if we're presuming as-pure-RAW-as-possible (and once we're not, we've got a bucket of other issues that come with it).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If manufactured diamonds wouldn't fit the bill, one well orchestrated raid on the De Beers diamond vaults will set him up in perpetuity for spell components.
I'm not convinced a contemporary sniper would be that dangerous to a well prepared wizard. A cloak of displacement would most likely foil most attacks, and a combination of an amulet of natural armor, ring of protection and bracers of armor would probably stop or deflect any bullet. And if you're a diviner, then the forewarned ability would let warn you of any danger and let you react to it. Even if you don't know what the threat is or where it is coming from, once you're aware of danger you can just teleport a couple of hundred miles away. Then, at your leisure, use divination to figure out what the threat was and act on it.
If your interest is in conquest, one solid option would be the whole religious angle. It wouldn't be too hard to fake being the second coming. Once you perform some 'miracles' and gain a fervent following, you'd have loyal minions to manage your growing empire.
As to the OPs original question, I'd say at least 12th level to allow you to cast an extended mage armor that lasts all day and to craft the magic items you'd need.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What level would a fighter need to be to conquer our Earth?
Ask Vandal Savage.
What level would a fighter need to be to conquer our Earth?Necessary Wizard level +2. Because Leadership.If they're not allowed to bring cohorts from Golarion, it's probably impossible, assuming modern-day Earth.
That's equally true of Wizards, because no matter what you are, you simply can't do it as a solo character. You need to sleep and you need to have things happen that you can't directly supervise. You need to be able have your authority extend beyond your visible horizon and active attention.
If they're not allowed to bring cohorts from Golarion, it's probably impossible, assuming modern-day Earth.
That's equally true of Wizards, because no matter what you are, you simply can't do it as a solo character. You need to sleep and you need to have things happen that you can't directly supervise. You need to be able have your authority extend beyond your visible horizon and active attention.
Not really, because there are multiple ways wizards can gain that absolute authority over actions, creatures, and events beyond their current visible horizon and direct, active attention... including their own (albeit at a lower level).
However, I've addressed those above. In order to entirely negate that advantage, you need to be able to negate at least one spell school (but probably three or four) and crafting.
One of the things I didn't cover were undead and their use. Spectral undead, of course, could effectively cause an apocalypse, but that was already mentioned. Beyond that, with the appropriate crafted items, you have the ability to turn every corpse into a useful (if disgusting, for most kinds) soldier - and if it's beyond your normal control limits (either by being too many HD or an undead by create undead or greater variant) than you have command undead and control undead that you can spam at-will (because of that same item-crafting).
Illusion has not only simulacrum, which has been noted by me above, but also the various shadow conjuration (and greater variants) that can really round-out action economy. Once again, crafting can make this effectively unlimited.
Enchantment has kind of been talked about, but, really, it's full effect has been somewhat ignored. While people will know that something is up with the mind-altered, that doesn't break the mind-altering effects. The appropriate ones can lasts for days at a time. Beyond extending your reach and ensuring loyalty (as there are no other magical forces that can negate your control) this enables a wizard to more or less use real, actual people at the very best of their ability without having to destroy their essence or cause an apocalypse.
Now, of course, of course, of course, there are limits. The more handicapped you make the wizard.
One question to ask, however, is, if a wizard has the Leadership feat, can he, with his knowledge, alter his cohort and followers via retraining? Because, if so, he's again got a force multiplier beyond crafting, conjuration, enchantment, illusion, and necromancy.
Of course, if they can be retrained, that begs the question if others can be retrained... which starts a whole... snowballing... thing of questions.
With transmutation, and no magical item crafting, fabricate allows a wizard to effectively learn about the world and then simply push out ludicrous tons of phat lewtz for so little that he will, by default, become a financial power-house. That's ignoring the big things like time stop, etherealness (which is disqualified), and shapechange. Or, slightly below that, temporal stasis and polymorph any object. The wizard would be hated, but probably worshiped. Angelic aspect would only add to that.
With foresight, all worries about being caught unaware vanish. Divination, in general, has otherwise been well-covered.
All that said... without crafting, Illusion, and Conjuration, the wizard will never truly have the power to overtly conquer the world. Create absolute havoc, yes, topple governments and destroy religions before he's through, yeah, but he won't have the genuine ability to conquer it all. Any influence he'd wield would, necessarily, come through more "normal" means, but just dialed up past 11 all the way into "that's a lot at once" territory.
I mean, really, shadowlords, you wouldn't even need gestalt.
You could just reincarnating druid 5/wizard "who cares, I got this" and get to work. That's basically enough. :)
My personal thought is around 12th or so as that is about the point at which the hour/level spells can be extended as or if needed to last a full day.
Not that there are that many since 3.5 gutted most of the ones from 3.0.